DNA Research #DNA RE: Baffling Y-DNA Results #dna
Sarah L Meyer
I have several comments on this some DNA and one general history.
Let's start with the easiest one. There were times when Poland did
not exist as a country and was divided up. My uncle's birth
certificate says "Warsaw, Russia". The borders moved, even when
people didn't. Brod or Brody was likely in Russia in 1864 (there
was no Poland)- see
For the DNA comments: As you know the Y only follows the male line,
but you did not mention whether Israel Shimon also remarried and
whether Chaim had 1/2 brothers >from his father. Also Israel Shimon
could have had brothers (who would have shared the Y DNA) line and
they or their sons (depending on age) could have been the person to
father Johan Viktor Sandström.
Sarah L Meyer
From: Meyer Denn <email@example.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 02:33:35 +0000 (UTC)
In November of 2014, I submitted a Y-111 DNA test to Family Tree DNA.
I received an intriguing correspondence >from a lady in Finland who explained
to me that we are a perfect match on the 111 marker, evidently meaning that
there is a better than 85% chance that we are directly related in four
generations or less. What she told me was astounding. She said that her
father's preoccupation with genealogy began when he was retired, and that
his grandfather's father was unknown. Her great grandfather (Johan Viktor
Sandström) was born in Hämeenlinna 2.7.1864 and his mother never told
anybody the identity of the baby's father. There was only speculations that
he was a Jew >from Russian army visiting Finland and that he might have been
a trumpeter in the army band.
I am simply at a loss as to how this can be. If this is correct, it appears
that I am a perfect match for her father, with a direct connection to him in
four generations or less.
I do not know a great deal about my paternal line, but what I know is pretty
clear going back to about 1850. My paternal grandfather, Jozef Juda (Joe)
DENN, was born in Korczyna, Galicia (northernmost province of the old
Austro-Hungarian Empire -- currently in southern Poland) in 1894. He had
three older siblings who survived to adulthood, the oldest being born in
1877. My grandfather's father, Chayem DENN, died in Korczyna in 1910 at the
age of 59, placing his birth at about 1851 or so. My grandfather told me
that his father Chayem was born in Brod, a town "deep in Poland." He seemed
to indicate that this town of Brod was the same town called today Brody in
the Ukraine, which at that time was much closer to the Russian border with
Poland. Here is where things get a bit murky. Chayem's parents were Izroel
Shimon DENN and Beila NEUMANN.
She was born in about 1831 in Baligrod, Galicia, not to far >from Korczyna in
southern Poland. I know nothing about Izroel Shimon DENN, but according to
oral family tradition, not long after Chayem's birth, Beila arranged for a
divorce >from her husband, who supposedly had an abusive personality. This
was unheard of in those days for a woman to have the wherewithal to arrange
her own divorce.
What is even more strange was that Izroel Shimon was able to keep his son
Chayem and raise him. His wife Beila then remarried her second husband in a
little town on the other side of the Slovak border (at that time in
Hungary). She and her second husband subsequently had five children. The
oldest daughter, Faiga Perl, born in 1854, eventually got married in about
1875, and the youngest daughter >from Faiga Perl's union married my
grandfather Jozef Juda DENN, her half first cousin (they shared a common
grandmother, but different grandfathers.) Faige Perl used to say about her
half- brother Chayem DENN, "what a pity it was for my brother Chayem that he
had to grow up in such a miserable home devoid of love, while we and our
siblings were raised in such a happy, loving home."
Additionally, my grandfather used to tell me that growing up in his home, he
and his siblings were terrified of their father, and that when he used to
come home >from work, nobody spoke out of fear, or that they would hide from
him because they feared him. This is literally all that I know about the
DENN side of the family. Other than the 1910 death certificate for Chayem
DENN that I have >from Korczyna, Poland, I have no other documentation about
the DENN family prior to that time. I know nothing about Izroel Shimon DENN,
but I must assume that he had siblings because it would have been unheard of
for Orthodox (Chassidic) families at that time not to have multiple children
in a family.
So, back to the connection to Finland. I have never heard of the DENN family
associated with Russia or the Russian army, however I assume that it is
possible that if they lived in Brody, it might not be too big a leap to
posit that they may have come to Brody >from the other side of the nearby
Russian border, or could have ventured to Russia >from Brody. I would assume
that if Chayem DENN was born in 1851 and his mother was born in 1831 (age 20
at birth), they most likely did not have other children in that union. So,
it probably was *not* Izroel Shimon who was the father of Victor SANTASALO,
because he would have most likely been 10 to 15 years old at the time.
However, it is very possible that Izroel Shimon could have had a brother,
father or uncle who could have sired the child.