JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Hebrew Translation Question #general

Cyndi Norwitz

I asked for help in translating 2 bits of the Hebrew on the gravestone of my great
grandfather, Emanuel DEUTELBAUM, who died in Budapest, Hungary.

And wow what a response! Thank you!

My second question was about the date. With a degraded stone, it was hard to tell
letters apart. Everyone who wrote agreed that a gimmel got mistaken for a vav and
the correct date was 29 Kislev 5683 (Dec 19, 1922).

My first question was about the Hebrew name. I had Menahem ben Frader or Fradel
or ???

Most people thought it was Fradel (with variations of Fradl and Fridel). Some
people thought it was Frader. And we had one Freda.

2 people wondered if Jonas Deutelbaum (Emmanuel's dad) was not Jewish (he was!) or
estranged >from his son (no idea) or if his Hebrew name was forgotten (unlikely;
several of his children lived in Budapest) and that is why Emmanuel's survivors
(his wife Ida MILCH mostly) used Francza ZELINKA's Hebrew name instead.

I had also forgotten to mention that I had all the Hungarian on the stone
translated except for one word, Faradalmait, which I assumed was his profession
(he was a "forest appraiser" (my mom's words) or a "lumber merchant" (on a doc)).
But 2 people told me it is actually something else. That it means "after a busy
working life" or "Resting after an exhausting working life" or "the weariness of
his working life." One person said it may have been a play on words, that "Munkas
elete faradalmait" is similar to "Menachem ben fradl."

Some people thought that Fradel/Fradl/Fridel could indeed be a man's Hebrew name,
even if it is usually a woman's.

The person who took the photo for me sent me a higher resolution version of the
original picture. I was originally in the "it's a resh!" camp. But looking at the
new photo, you can see for certain that it is a lamed. So Fradel not Frader.

So now the question I'm left with is if Fradel (etc) is Jonas' or Francza's Hebrew
name. Hopefully I'll find the answer to that as I continue with the transcription
of the Kotesova, Slovakia records. One person noted that the same cemetery,
Kozma Street Jewish Cemetery, Budapest, had other gravestones giving the mother's
Hebrew name. He wondered if it was because this cemetery is not Orthodox.
Interesting. It is a Neolog synagogue that runs the cemetery.

So we're left with a mystery.

Many thanks for all the help. Genealogy can be so painstakingly slow, but it's
still loads of fun.

Cyndi Norwitz
Petaluma, California

DEUTELBAUM, ZELENKA (Kotesova, Slovakia); KRIEGER, GOLDBERGER (Kosice, Slovakia);
Pittsburgh); KARPATI (Boston); DUBIN (Chudnov, Ukraine); FRIEDMAN, SHAPIRO
(Cherikov, Mogilev, Belarus; Mglin Russia/Ukraine; Newark, NJ) ; NAIMSKY
(Warsaw; Bronx, NY); NITOWITZ, NORWITZ (Lomza, Poland; Washington DC); GOLDSTEIN
(Lativa;Baltimore); SHAVEL, SHAVELLE, SHAVIL (Kanus, Lithuania)

Join to automatically receive all group messages.