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Re: Death Records, City Directories #general

sallybru@...
 

For death certificates in Elmira, try writing Vital Records City Hall
Elmira, NY. This generally works for cities anywhere in the US.

For directories, try the Mormon FHL. If not there, try your local library.
I know our local library central branch has a lot of old directories for a
lot of places.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY
Re: Family Data Sheet Estimation Program #general

sallybru@...
 

This is very interesting and may be helpful, but we need to keep in mind
(especially beginners) that sometimes families in specific locations and
specific religions (Jews) did things differently.

For example, I put in a marriage dates of 1652 and 1852. For 1652 it
estimates that the parents were born in 1628 and 1630. That makes the
husband 24 and the wife 22 at marriage. I don't know about all ethnic
groups, but for many of the Ashkenazi, that is ancient. You see lots of
messages on Jewishgen about marriages of people 12 and 14 years old! They
are almost grandparents by 24!!!

The rest are reasonable estimates, but the marriage age is far off for many
of our ancestors. It is roughly reasonably for my Sephardim in Amsterdam,
who married for the first time >from age 16 to 40!

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY
Re: Naming Patterns #germany

sallybru@...
 

Norman Carp-Gordon asks me:

How far back were your German Jewish ancestors naming children after
*living* grandparents? Many German Jews began assimilating in the early
19th century. Even short of baptism and/or intermarriage liberal
practices and influences >from Gentile customs became common. However,
perhaps about half German Jewry remained traditional--and *rigidly* so.

1700's Norman. As has often been written (check the Archives) Western Jews
did not follow the Eastern Ashkenazi on this. The Bruckheimer family, for
one, lived in the same town since the late 1600's and named after the
grandparents. Long before taking the surname. Another family which
married them can be traced back to late in the 1700's.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY
London 2001 #general

Sam Shoshan <samshoshan@...>
 

When is the Jewish Jen conference in London?


MODERATOR NOTE: On our homepage, http://www.jewishgen.org/ ,
there is information on this conference under the heading
"Hosted Organizations." The website for the conference is at
http://www.jewishgen.org/London2001/
help with URLs #general

Arlene <aparnes@...>
 

Please send to me privately:

any URLs you have found useful in your gen. search, especially those of
Jewish interest. I've lost all of my bookmarks due to a HD crash.

Many thanks for any help.

Arlene Parnes, Orlando
aparnes@...
Re: HIAS #general

A. E. Jordan
 

Thanks for the addresses on HIAS -- I am sure a lot of us will find it
helpful.

Any idea what type of records HIAS has in New York?

One of my great great great uncles (Leon SANDERS) was very involved (may
be a founder) of HIAS in New York. He was also active with B'rth Abraham
and >from family stories met with one of the US presidents (early 1920s it
sounds like) about the support of a Jewish homestate in Plaestine. He
also traveled to Mexico in the 1920s to discuss Jewish immigration with
the Mexican president of the time. Would love to know more about this
man's work and wondering what files HIAS might have related to his work
for them?

Thanks.

Allan Jordan
Book: La Fusion de los Sefardies con Los Dominicanos 1944 #general

r.van wijngaarden <r.van.wijngaarden@...>
 

Dear Genners,

Is there one of us who has read or even better, in his possession this book
by Enrique UCKO called:
"La Fusion De Los Sefardies Con Los Dominicanos"
Printed in 1944 by C. Trujillo-Impr. La Opinion 1944.
Would he/she please be so friendly as to contact me.

Thanks in advance

René F.van Wijngaarden
Netherlands
E-mail : r.van.wijngaarden@...
Familytree at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Creek/6534
Searching for: Del Valle/Delvalle/Van Daelen/Salom del Valle/Maduro/De
Marchena/Barzilay

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately.
Re: Lithuanian State Historical Archives #general

Norman H. Carp-Gordon <zerakodesh@...>
 

The archives in Vilnius *do* have death (and divorce) as well as birth
and marriage records. Moreover, you don't need to order them >from the
archives. They are all on Mormon microfilms--I have a 75-page printout
with all the catalogue data. If you ask me about any community, I can
tell you what exists for it.

I have been successful in obtaining birth and marriage records
from the Lithuanian State Historical Archives, but I have never
received any death records. Is this just coincidence, or are
there no death records in these archives?
Re: Cloning & Genealogy #general

Dick@...
 

George Losonci's amusing post provides an opportunity to clarify the
distinction between genealogy and genetics. While related, they are
not the same thing. Genealogy is a branch of sociology, in that
genealogical relationships are culturally determined. Genetics, by
contrast, is a branch of biology. A couple of examples will serve to
illustrate how genetic and genealogical relationships may differ.

Identical twins possess essentially the same genetic makeup, as well as
nearly identical early environmental influences. Yet they are not the
same person, are shown separately on family trees, have different names
and legal identities, and in general are treated by our society as more
different than would be warranted by considering only their genetics.
Mr Losonci's hypothetical clone would of course be even more different
from the original, with entirely different early environmental
experiences. Of course the clone would be treated as an entirely
different person by society. The identity of the clone's genealogical
"parents" would be determined by society, either by legal fiat or by
cultural consensus, and would almost certainly not be the same people
as the parents of the original.

Conversely, consider an actual family with which I am familiar. A young
woman became pregnant by a man who would not marry her or whom she did not
wish to marry. A good friend of hers, not the biological father of her
fetus, married her to provide a family for her daughter (as it turned out
to be). The baby was born four months after the marriage. By law, by
genealogy, by actual family ties, the mother's husband was the father of
the girl. Although the marriage did not last, the father-daughter
relationship is still strong, although the daughter is now grown and
living on her own. The father did not adopt the child (did not have to),
yet is by any genealogical measure her father, although she carries none
of his genes. Indeed, in most jurisdictions, the mother's husband is by
law presumed to be the child's father. I believe that in some
jurisdictions, at least at some times, this presumption is or was not
even rebuttable.

Genealogy is confused so easily with genetics because, despite anomalies
such as the examples above, they do go together most of the time. It is
because of this strong correlation that we can use genetics to test
genealogical hypotheses, as in JewishGen's Genealogy by Genetics project.
But we can't assume that the genetic test is the "gold standard" for
genealogy. When a genetic test confirms or fails to confirm a presumed
genealogical relationship, we have acquired just one more piece of
evidence to take into account in building our family tree.

The central topic of JewishGen is genealogy, the study of relationships as
defined by society. To the extent that genetics can be used to help us
build our genealogies, it is relevant. But genetics per se, or DNA
testing in particular, is really not what JewishGen is here for. That is
why discussions of genetics and DNA testing properly take place on the DNA
list, not in the Discussion Group, which is reserved for discussions of
genealogy. A little humor is welcome >from time to time, but serious
discussions of topics such as cloning are not the focus of the JewishGen
Discussion Group.

Dick Plotz
Providence RI USA

MODERATOR NOTE: Further discussion of this issue should take
place privately, or on the DNA list.
Austin Texas: OLENICK, DAVIS, FRANK, ROSENBAUM, SCHARFF #general

Steve Axelrath <saxelrat@...>
 

On December 13, 1877 at age 38 my Great Great Uncle, Elias OLENICK
born in Poland, was murdered by a "Mr. Harris" in a store he owned in
Austin, Texas. While Elias’ wife and children likely then moved back to
New York City, others in his family stayed in the Austin area until, at
least, 1979. Elias’ wife was Dora GREEN. Their children likely were
Louis, Moses, Al and Lillian. Lillian married Maurice SHAPPIRO. The
couple’s son, Julian SHAPPIRO, was a colleague of Edward R. Murrow’s in
Europe and New York. His professional name was Joe JULIAN. The other
son was Sam who lives in the Los Angeles area.

In Austin, Elias’ OLENICK’S sister, Susan was married to Jacob
DAVIS. Jacob had at least eight children: Sarah T, Alexander, Louis,
David E., Pauline, Perl, May, and Esther. Jacob appears to have had a
second wife: Fanny ROSENBAUM. Esther died in Austin in 1979.

Still in the Austin area, Sarah T. DAVIS married Abraham FRANK.
The children were Rosa, Aaron, Pauline, Miriam, and a girl whose name
looks like Beinard. Aaron married a Gladys SCHARFF. I don't know if
the other children married.

Esther DAVIS, sister of Sarah T. above, married Ike ROSENFIELD. The
couple once lived in Clarksville City, Texas.
Many of the people named above are buried in the Oakwood Cemetery in
Austin. A reference calls the cemetery Beth El #2.

I’d be most interested in hearing >from anyone who might have
information regarding my Texas family. I'd also be interested in
hearing about "Mr. Harris," the murderer, though I suspect I wouldn't
find his descendants on Jewishgen.

Steve Axelrath
Centennial, Colorado
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Death Records, City Directories #general

sallybru@...
 

For death certificates in Elmira, try writing Vital Records City Hall
Elmira, NY. This generally works for cities anywhere in the US.

For directories, try the Mormon FHL. If not there, try your local library.
I know our local library central branch has a lot of old directories for a
lot of places.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Family Data Sheet Estimation Program #general

sallybru@...
 

This is very interesting and may be helpful, but we need to keep in mind
(especially beginners) that sometimes families in specific locations and
specific religions (Jews) did things differently.

For example, I put in a marriage dates of 1652 and 1852. For 1652 it
estimates that the parents were born in 1628 and 1630. That makes the
husband 24 and the wife 22 at marriage. I don't know about all ethnic
groups, but for many of the Ashkenazi, that is ancient. You see lots of
messages on Jewishgen about marriages of people 12 and 14 years old! They
are almost grandparents by 24!!!

The rest are reasonable estimates, but the marriage age is far off for many
of our ancestors. It is roughly reasonably for my Sephardim in Amsterdam,
who married for the first time >from age 16 to 40!

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Naming Patterns #general

sallybru@...
 

Norman Carp-Gordon asks me:

How far back were your German Jewish ancestors naming children after
*living* grandparents? Many German Jews began assimilating in the early
19th century. Even short of baptism and/or intermarriage liberal
practices and influences >from Gentile customs became common. However,
perhaps about half German Jewry remained traditional--and *rigidly* so.

1700's Norman. As has often been written (check the Archives) Western Jews
did not follow the Eastern Ashkenazi on this. The Bruckheimer family, for
one, lived in the same town since the late 1600's and named after the
grandparents. Long before taking the surname. Another family which
married them can be traced back to late in the 1700's.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen London 2001 #general

Sam Shoshan <samshoshan@...>
 

When is the Jewish Jen conference in London?


MODERATOR NOTE: On our homepage, http://www.jewishgen.org/ ,
there is information on this conference under the heading
"Hosted Organizations." The website for the conference is at
http://www.jewishgen.org/London2001/
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen help with URLs #general

Arlene <aparnes@...>
 

Please send to me privately:

any URLs you have found useful in your gen. search, especially those of
Jewish interest. I've lost all of my bookmarks due to a HD crash.

Many thanks for any help.

Arlene Parnes, Orlando
aparnes@...
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: HIAS #general

A. E. Jordan
 

Thanks for the addresses on HIAS -- I am sure a lot of us will find it
helpful.

Any idea what type of records HIAS has in New York?

One of my great great great uncles (Leon SANDERS) was very involved (may
be a founder) of HIAS in New York. He was also active with B'rth Abraham
and >from family stories met with one of the US presidents (early 1920s it
sounds like) about the support of a Jewish homestate in Plaestine. He
also traveled to Mexico in the 1920s to discuss Jewish immigration with
the Mexican president of the time. Would love to know more about this
man's work and wondering what files HIAS might have related to his work
for them?

Thanks.

Allan Jordan
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Book: La Fusion de los Sefardies con Los Dominicanos 1944 #general

r.van wijngaarden <r.van.wijngaarden@...>
 

Dear Genners,

Is there one of us who has read or even better, in his possession this book
by Enrique UCKO called:
"La Fusion De Los Sefardies Con Los Dominicanos"
Printed in 1944 by C. Trujillo-Impr. La Opinion 1944.
Would he/she please be so friendly as to contact me.

Thanks in advance

René F.van Wijngaarden
Netherlands
E-mail : r.van.wijngaarden@...
Familytree at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Creek/6534
Searching for: Del Valle/Delvalle/Van Daelen/Salom del Valle/Maduro/De
Marchena/Barzilay

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately.
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Lithuanian State Historical Archives #general

Norman H. Carp-Gordon <zerakodesh@...>
 

The archives in Vilnius *do* have death (and divorce) as well as birth
and marriage records. Moreover, you don't need to order them >from the
archives. They are all on Mormon microfilms--I have a 75-page printout
with all the catalogue data. If you ask me about any community, I can
tell you what exists for it.

I have been successful in obtaining birth and marriage records
from the Lithuanian State Historical Archives, but I have never
received any death records. Is this just coincidence, or are
there no death records in these archives?
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Cloning & Genealogy #general

Dick@...
 

George Losonci's amusing post provides an opportunity to clarify the
distinction between genealogy and genetics. While related, they are
not the same thing. Genealogy is a branch of sociology, in that
genealogical relationships are culturally determined. Genetics, by
contrast, is a branch of biology. A couple of examples will serve to
illustrate how genetic and genealogical relationships may differ.

Identical twins possess essentially the same genetic makeup, as well as
nearly identical early environmental influences. Yet they are not the
same person, are shown separately on family trees, have different names
and legal identities, and in general are treated by our society as more
different than would be warranted by considering only their genetics.
Mr Losonci's hypothetical clone would of course be even more different
from the original, with entirely different early environmental
experiences. Of course the clone would be treated as an entirely
different person by society. The identity of the clone's genealogical
"parents" would be determined by society, either by legal fiat or by
cultural consensus, and would almost certainly not be the same people
as the parents of the original.

Conversely, consider an actual family with which I am familiar. A young
woman became pregnant by a man who would not marry her or whom she did not
wish to marry. A good friend of hers, not the biological father of her
fetus, married her to provide a family for her daughter (as it turned out
to be). The baby was born four months after the marriage. By law, by
genealogy, by actual family ties, the mother's husband was the father of
the girl. Although the marriage did not last, the father-daughter
relationship is still strong, although the daughter is now grown and
living on her own. The father did not adopt the child (did not have to),
yet is by any genealogical measure her father, although she carries none
of his genes. Indeed, in most jurisdictions, the mother's husband is by
law presumed to be the child's father. I believe that in some
jurisdictions, at least at some times, this presumption is or was not
even rebuttable.

Genealogy is confused so easily with genetics because, despite anomalies
such as the examples above, they do go together most of the time. It is
because of this strong correlation that we can use genetics to test
genealogical hypotheses, as in JewishGen's Genealogy by Genetics project.
But we can't assume that the genetic test is the "gold standard" for
genealogy. When a genetic test confirms or fails to confirm a presumed
genealogical relationship, we have acquired just one more piece of
evidence to take into account in building our family tree.

The central topic of JewishGen is genealogy, the study of relationships as
defined by society. To the extent that genetics can be used to help us
build our genealogies, it is relevant. But genetics per se, or DNA
testing in particular, is really not what JewishGen is here for. That is
why discussions of genetics and DNA testing properly take place on the DNA
list, not in the Discussion Group, which is reserved for discussions of
genealogy. A little humor is welcome >from time to time, but serious
discussions of topics such as cloning are not the focus of the JewishGen
Discussion Group.

Dick Plotz
Providence RI USA

MODERATOR NOTE: Further discussion of this issue should take
place privately, or on the DNA list.
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Austin Texas: OLENICK, DAVIS, FRANK, ROSENBAUM, SCHARFF #general

Steve Axelrath <saxelrat@...>
 

On December 13, 1877 at age 38 my Great Great Uncle, Elias OLENICK
born in Poland, was murdered by a "Mr. Harris" in a store he owned in
Austin, Texas. While Elias’ wife and children likely then moved back to
New York City, others in his family stayed in the Austin area until, at
least, 1979. Elias’ wife was Dora GREEN. Their children likely were
Louis, Moses, Al and Lillian. Lillian married Maurice SHAPPIRO. The
couple’s son, Julian SHAPPIRO, was a colleague of Edward R. Murrow’s in
Europe and New York. His professional name was Joe JULIAN. The other
son was Sam who lives in the Los Angeles area.

In Austin, Elias’ OLENICK’S sister, Susan was married to Jacob
DAVIS. Jacob had at least eight children: Sarah T, Alexander, Louis,
David E., Pauline, Perl, May, and Esther. Jacob appears to have had a
second wife: Fanny ROSENBAUM. Esther died in Austin in 1979.

Still in the Austin area, Sarah T. DAVIS married Abraham FRANK.
The children were Rosa, Aaron, Pauline, Miriam, and a girl whose name
looks like Beinard. Aaron married a Gladys SCHARFF. I don't know if
the other children married.

Esther DAVIS, sister of Sarah T. above, married Ike ROSENFIELD. The
couple once lived in Clarksville City, Texas.
Many of the people named above are buried in the Oakwood Cemetery in
Austin. A reference calls the cemetery Beth El #2.

I’d be most interested in hearing >from anyone who might have
information regarding my Texas family. I'd also be interested in
hearing about "Mr. Harris," the murderer, though I suspect I wouldn't
find his descendants on Jewishgen.

Steve Axelrath
Centennial, Colorado
549341 - 549360 of 669659