Date   

1869 Census: Zemplen County #hungary

Faith Gardner <ragfhg@...>
 

Thank you to whoever it was that first told us this census was available.
I was happy to find my great-grandparents on it. Before I put the section
I need help with on View Mate, would someone explain this to me, please.
One of the column headings is: "hivatasa vagy" (in German: "beruf oder").
Does that mean "profession"/"occupation"? I am confused by the words
"vagy" and "oder" which mean "or". Contact me personally, please. Thank
you.

Faith Gardner,
Madbury, N.H.


Hungary SIG #Hungary 1869 Census: Zemplen County #hungary

Faith Gardner <ragfhg@...>
 

Thank you to whoever it was that first told us this census was available.
I was happy to find my great-grandparents on it. Before I put the section
I need help with on View Mate, would someone explain this to me, please.
One of the column headings is: "hivatasa vagy" (in German: "beruf oder").
Does that mean "profession"/"occupation"? I am confused by the words
"vagy" and "oder" which mean "or". Contact me personally, please. Thank
you.

Faith Gardner,
Madbury, N.H.


Re: DNA testing: The correct solution to 2 females, through their paternal lines.. #dna

enipp140@...
 

If I can check only the maternal line why would I not be able to find the
cohanin gene? I have no living brother or father and if I check the dna
of my son - he is the product of a mixed marriage and I am not sure what
that will show. Does anyone know? My interest is only in the paternal
family >from Belarus. elaine R.I.


DNA Research #DNA Re: DNA testing: The correct solution to 2 females, through their paternal lines.. #dna

enipp140@...
 

If I can check only the maternal line why would I not be able to find the
cohanin gene? I have no living brother or father and if I check the dna
of my son - he is the product of a mixed marriage and I am not sure what
that will show. Does anyone know? My interest is only in the paternal
family >from Belarus. elaine R.I.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen 1920 census info- are these your relatives?? #general

Kathy Keane <kkfish@...>
 

Hello,

I have a page of 1920 census information >from Bronx,
New York. It's for numeration district 191 and some addresses for
Prospect Ave. The family names are:

Samuel Blumenthal
Leopod Berkowitz
Samuel Engel
Samuel Fox
Harry Truth
Louis Meyerson
Minnie Brooks
Max Schultz
Morris Wallace
Abraham Zeitlen

There is some good information, but none of these are my
relatives. I'm happy to share this if these people are your
relatives!

Kathy Keane, Hermosa Beach, California
kkfish@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Naming Patterns #general

Norman H. Carp-Gordon <zerakodesh@...>
 

Thanks for your own ancestra data. Which "archives" do you suggest
I check? You imply that (north?) eastern Ashkenazim came up with
their namesaking custom by themselves. If so, I thank God for it.

As has often been written (check the Archives) Western Jews
did not follow the Eastern Ashkenazi on this. The Bruckheimer
family, for one, lived in the same town since the late 1600's
and named after the grandparents. Long before taking the surname.
Another family which married them can be traced back to late in
the 1700's.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY
MODERATOR NOTE: If the archives mentioned are those of the
JewishGen Discussion Group, they may be searched at:
http://www.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.isa?jg~jgsys~archpop


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen 1920 census index #general

Kathy Keane <kkfish@...>
 

I have census index cards for the following people, and they
are not my relatives:

Edith Bradway, New York
Edith Brady, New York
Edith Barta, New York

If these are your relatives let me know and I will give you
the info about them!!


Kathy Keane, Hermosa Beach, California
kkfish@...


1920 census info- are these your relatives?? #general

Kathy Keane <kkfish@...>
 

Hello,

I have a page of 1920 census information >from Bronx,
New York. It's for numeration district 191 and some addresses for
Prospect Ave. The family names are:

Samuel Blumenthal
Leopod Berkowitz
Samuel Engel
Samuel Fox
Harry Truth
Louis Meyerson
Minnie Brooks
Max Schultz
Morris Wallace
Abraham Zeitlen

There is some good information, but none of these are my
relatives. I'm happy to share this if these people are your
relatives!

Kathy Keane, Hermosa Beach, California
kkfish@...


1920 census index #general

Kathy Keane <kkfish@...>
 

I have census index cards for the following people, and they
are not my relatives:

Edith Bradway, New York
Edith Brady, New York
Edith Barta, New York

If these are your relatives let me know and I will give you
the info about them!!


Kathy Keane, Hermosa Beach, California
kkfish@...


Re: Naming Patterns #germany

Norman H. Carp-Gordon <zerakodesh@...>
 

Thanks for your own ancestra data. Which "archives" do you suggest
I check? You imply that (north?) eastern Ashkenazim came up with
their namesaking custom by themselves. If so, I thank God for it.

As has often been written (check the Archives) Western Jews
did not follow the Eastern Ashkenazi on this. The Bruckheimer
family, for one, lived in the same town since the late 1600's
and named after the grandparents. Long before taking the surname.
Another family which married them can be traced back to late in
the 1700's.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY
MODERATOR NOTE: If the archives mentioned are those of the
JewishGen Discussion Group, they may be searched at:
http://www.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.isa?jg~jgsys~archpop


German "Kurland" book #courland #latvia

Betsy Gephart <bgephart@...>
 

Several years ago, while I was a student at the University of Michigan, I
found a book in the library there about Kurland. I had it photocopied, and
unfortunately, it still remains in my "archives" untranslated. It is a 225
page book, written in German, about the geography, demographics, etc. of
late 19th-century and early 20th -century Kurland.

Here are the details:
"Kurland: Eine allgemeine Siedlungs-, Verkehrs- und Wirtschaftsgeographie"
by Dr. F. Mager, published in Hamburg, 1920 by L. Friederichsen & Co.

It includes several photos, maps and numerous tables which detail the makeup
of the population by religion, occupation, etc. A brief outline of the
table of contents includes (>from my very basic translation):
1. Introduction: Short historical survey
2. Natural conditions (location, climate, vegetation, landscape, etc.)
3. Population
4. Settlements
5. Transportation
6. Economic conditions - Agriculture, Land Management, Trade and Industry,
each with its own section
4. Bibliography

While the text seems to be pretty dry, and there are no names or families
mentioned, it would be an interesting text to have as background for those
of us interested in the area. If anyone is able and interested in
translating part of it, I would be more than happy to copy and send a
chapter or two along, or for that matter the whole thing if anyone is that
ambitious!

If you'd like more information, please let me know.

Sincerely,
Betsy Thal Gephart
bgephart@...


Courland SIG #Courland #Latvia German "Kurland" book #courland #latvia

Betsy Gephart <bgephart@...>
 

Several years ago, while I was a student at the University of Michigan, I
found a book in the library there about Kurland. I had it photocopied, and
unfortunately, it still remains in my "archives" untranslated. It is a 225
page book, written in German, about the geography, demographics, etc. of
late 19th-century and early 20th -century Kurland.

Here are the details:
"Kurland: Eine allgemeine Siedlungs-, Verkehrs- und Wirtschaftsgeographie"
by Dr. F. Mager, published in Hamburg, 1920 by L. Friederichsen & Co.

It includes several photos, maps and numerous tables which detail the makeup
of the population by religion, occupation, etc. A brief outline of the
table of contents includes (>from my very basic translation):
1. Introduction: Short historical survey
2. Natural conditions (location, climate, vegetation, landscape, etc.)
3. Population
4. Settlements
5. Transportation
6. Economic conditions - Agriculture, Land Management, Trade and Industry,
each with its own section
4. Bibliography

While the text seems to be pretty dry, and there are no names or families
mentioned, it would be an interesting text to have as background for those
of us interested in the area. If anyone is able and interested in
translating part of it, I would be more than happy to copy and send a
chapter or two along, or for that matter the whole thing if anyone is that
ambitious!

If you'd like more information, please let me know.

Sincerely,
Betsy Thal Gephart
bgephart@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: child marriages #general

Norman H. Carp-Gordon <zerakodesh@...>
 

Yes, but the late 19th century data you cite cannot simply be
superimposed on the 18th century, any more than late 20th century
data can be superimposed on the period you have checked.

Yes, there were child marriages in Europe, especially in
Khasidic communities. But let us not get carried away. These
stories are noteworthy in part because the incidence was so rare,
as well as because it would be unusual or illegal today.
For instance, I have examined the marriage records of Nezhin
Ukraine, a town subject to considerable Lubovicher influence,
for 1886 and 1895. In 155 marriages, or 310 marriage partners,
there were 2 16-year-old girls, 1 17-year-old girl, 7 18-year-old
girls, and 2 18-year-old boys. No one was under 16.
Bert
Herbert Lazerow
San Diego CA
lazer@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen GRANARD/GRANAT/ROSENBLUM : Tomashow(Poland), Thoron(Germany) #general

Jennifer Broughton <jennifer.broughton@...>
 

My g.grandfather, Abraham Granard, was born in Tomashow, Poland in about
1854/55. His wife, Ester Rosenblum was born in Plock, Poland in about
1860/64. They arrived in this country between 1884 and 1887. They lived
in Germany between about 1881 and 1884, and had 3 children there: Rosie,
Ester, and Phoebe. The place of birth of the children on the 1891 uk
census looks like "Thoron Germany". Using shtetl seeker on Jewish Gen the
nearest matches I've found to this are Thoren, and Thossen.

Does anyone have any information on "Thoron" - or on how I might obtain
birth records >from here? - these might help to find my g.grandfather's
original surname. I have a suspicion that it might be Granat as I found
lots of these in the Tomashow records - but I have no proof. My
g.grandfather remarried in the 1920's and gave his father's name as Joseph
Granard.

Any help/information would be appreciated.

Thanks

Jennifer Broughton


Re: child marriages #general

Norman H. Carp-Gordon <zerakodesh@...>
 

Yes, but the late 19th century data you cite cannot simply be
superimposed on the 18th century, any more than late 20th century
data can be superimposed on the period you have checked.

Yes, there were child marriages in Europe, especially in
Khasidic communities. But let us not get carried away. These
stories are noteworthy in part because the incidence was so rare,
as well as because it would be unusual or illegal today.
For instance, I have examined the marriage records of Nezhin
Ukraine, a town subject to considerable Lubovicher influence,
for 1886 and 1895. In 155 marriages, or 310 marriage partners,
there were 2 16-year-old girls, 1 17-year-old girl, 7 18-year-old
girls, and 2 18-year-old boys. No one was under 16.
Bert
Herbert Lazerow
San Diego CA
lazer@...


GRANARD/GRANAT/ROSENBLUM : Tomashow(Poland), Thoron(Germany) #general

Jennifer Broughton <jennifer.broughton@...>
 

My g.grandfather, Abraham Granard, was born in Tomashow, Poland in about
1854/55. His wife, Ester Rosenblum was born in Plock, Poland in about
1860/64. They arrived in this country between 1884 and 1887. They lived
in Germany between about 1881 and 1884, and had 3 children there: Rosie,
Ester, and Phoebe. The place of birth of the children on the 1891 uk
census looks like "Thoron Germany". Using shtetl seeker on Jewish Gen the
nearest matches I've found to this are Thoren, and Thossen.

Does anyone have any information on "Thoron" - or on how I might obtain
birth records >from here? - these might help to find my g.grandfather's
original surname. I have a suspicion that it might be Granat as I found
lots of these in the Tomashow records - but I have no proof. My
g.grandfather remarried in the 1920's and gave his father's name as Joseph
Granard.

Any help/information would be appreciated.

Thanks

Jennifer Broughton


WULFSON #courland #latvia

Knud and Lorraine Bertelsen <klb@...>
 

Sorry everyone I wasn't able to respond earlier re the WULFSON query and
then this message was rejected by the gremlins!

One of my maternal GGGGF's was David Behr ARONIS b. ca.1800 d. ?
He married Mahle/Malka bat Israel b.ca. 1898-1800, d. Libau 1862

They had several children, including my
GGGF Leib/Levin ARONIS b.ca. 1833 (possibly Kuldgia) d. Libau 1901 and
Salomon/Sholom ARONIS b.ca.1831-34 d. Libau 1869.

Salomon married
Esther nee WULFSON
b.ca.1848 in Libau in 1867.

Esther and Salomon ARONIS had one known child, Shimon-Beer ARONIS b.1868 Libau.
Nothing further known about what happened to this branch of the family.

Sorry I do not know Esther nee WULFSON's Father's name.

Does this help you?

Lorraine Bertelsen


Courland SIG #Courland #Latvia WULFSON #courland #latvia

Knud and Lorraine Bertelsen <klb@...>
 

Sorry everyone I wasn't able to respond earlier re the WULFSON query and
then this message was rejected by the gremlins!

One of my maternal GGGGF's was David Behr ARONIS b. ca.1800 d. ?
He married Mahle/Malka bat Israel b.ca. 1898-1800, d. Libau 1862

They had several children, including my
GGGF Leib/Levin ARONIS b.ca. 1833 (possibly Kuldgia) d. Libau 1901 and
Salomon/Sholom ARONIS b.ca.1831-34 d. Libau 1869.

Salomon married
Esther nee WULFSON
b.ca.1848 in Libau in 1867.

Esther and Salomon ARONIS had one known child, Shimon-Beer ARONIS b.1868 Libau.
Nothing further known about what happened to this branch of the family.

Sorry I do not know Esther nee WULFSON's Father's name.

Does this help you?

Lorraine Bertelsen


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Austin Texas: OLENICK, DAVIS, FRANK, ROSENBAUM, SCHARFF #general

Steve Axelrath <saxelrat@...>
 

On December 13, 1877 at age 38 my Great Great Uncle, Elias OLENICK
born in Poland, was murdered by a "Mr. Harris" in a store he owned in
Austin, Texas. While Elias’ wife and children likely then moved back to
New York City, others in his family stayed in the Austin area until, at
least, 1979. Elias’ wife was Dora GREEN. Their children likely were
Louis, Moses, Al and Lillian. Lillian married Maurice SHAPPIRO. The
couple’s son, Julian SHAPPIRO, was a colleague of Edward R. Murrow’s in
Europe and New York. His professional name was Joe JULIAN. The other
son was Sam who lives in the Los Angeles area.

In Austin, Elias’ OLENICK’S sister, Susan was married to Jacob
DAVIS. Jacob had at least eight children: Sarah T, Alexander, Louis,
David E., Pauline, Perl, May, and Esther. Jacob appears to have had a
second wife: Fanny ROSENBAUM. Esther died in Austin in 1979.

Still in the Austin area, Sarah T. DAVIS married Abraham FRANK.
The children were Rosa, Aaron, Pauline, Miriam, and a girl whose name
looks like Beinard. Aaron married a Gladys SCHARFF. I don't know if
the other children married.

Esther DAVIS, sister of Sarah T. above, married Ike ROSENFIELD. The
couple once lived in Clarksville City, Texas.
Many of the people named above are buried in the Oakwood Cemetery in
Austin. A reference calls the cemetery Beth El #2.

I’d be most interested in hearing >from anyone who might have
information regarding my Texas family. I'd also be interested in
hearing about "Mr. Harris," the murderer, though I suspect I wouldn't
find his descendants on Jewishgen.

Steve Axelrath
Centennial, Colorado


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Cloning & Genealogy #general

Dick@...
 

George Losonci's amusing post provides an opportunity to clarify the
distinction between genealogy and genetics. While related, they are
not the same thing. Genealogy is a branch of sociology, in that
genealogical relationships are culturally determined. Genetics, by
contrast, is a branch of biology. A couple of examples will serve to
illustrate how genetic and genealogical relationships may differ.

Identical twins possess essentially the same genetic makeup, as well as
nearly identical early environmental influences. Yet they are not the
same person, are shown separately on family trees, have different names
and legal identities, and in general are treated by our society as more
different than would be warranted by considering only their genetics.
Mr Losonci's hypothetical clone would of course be even more different
from the original, with entirely different early environmental
experiences. Of course the clone would be treated as an entirely
different person by society. The identity of the clone's genealogical
"parents" would be determined by society, either by legal fiat or by
cultural consensus, and would almost certainly not be the same people
as the parents of the original.

Conversely, consider an actual family with which I am familiar. A young
woman became pregnant by a man who would not marry her or whom she did not
wish to marry. A good friend of hers, not the biological father of her
fetus, married her to provide a family for her daughter (as it turned out
to be). The baby was born four months after the marriage. By law, by
genealogy, by actual family ties, the mother's husband was the father of
the girl. Although the marriage did not last, the father-daughter
relationship is still strong, although the daughter is now grown and
living on her own. The father did not adopt the child (did not have to),
yet is by any genealogical measure her father, although she carries none
of his genes. Indeed, in most jurisdictions, the mother's husband is by
law presumed to be the child's father. I believe that in some
jurisdictions, at least at some times, this presumption is or was not
even rebuttable.

Genealogy is confused so easily with genetics because, despite anomalies
such as the examples above, they do go together most of the time. It is
because of this strong correlation that we can use genetics to test
genealogical hypotheses, as in JewishGen's Genealogy by Genetics project.
But we can't assume that the genetic test is the "gold standard" for
genealogy. When a genetic test confirms or fails to confirm a presumed
genealogical relationship, we have acquired just one more piece of
evidence to take into account in building our family tree.

The central topic of JewishGen is genealogy, the study of relationships as
defined by society. To the extent that genetics can be used to help us
build our genealogies, it is relevant. But genetics per se, or DNA
testing in particular, is really not what JewishGen is here for. That is
why discussions of genetics and DNA testing properly take place on the DNA
list, not in the Discussion Group, which is reserved for discussions of
genealogy. A little humor is welcome >from time to time, but serious
discussions of topics such as cloning are not the focus of the JewishGen
Discussion Group.

Dick Plotz
Providence RI USA

MODERATOR NOTE: Further discussion of this issue should take
place privately, or on the DNA list.