Date   

preserving old records #general

Neil Barmann <ashkenazi@...>
 

I have just seen the April 15th edition of the New York Times Book
Review, and I read a review and accompanying story that disturbed me.

I was unaware - until today - that libraries all over the world, up to
and including the U.S. Library of Congress and the venerable British
Library, are discarding original copies of archived publications that
have not only general historic significance, but also specific
genealogical value. In some (but certainly not all) cases, these
publications are being either digitized or microfilmed; however, we have
all probably strained our eyes at some point on a bad microfilm that was
simply unreadable, and the article that I refer to below has presented
an example of a digitized paragraph that was rendered unintelligible by
a less-than-perfect OCR program.

I respectfully ask you to go to the following sites and read the New
York Times book review and excerpt. I confess that I don't know what
actions, if any, are appropriate, and you may disagree with my concern.
All I ask is that you read these passages:

http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/04/15/reviews/010415.15gatest.html

http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/04/15/reviews/010415.15garner.html

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/baker-fold.html

Thanks for your time.
Neil Barmann


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen preserving old records #general

Neil Barmann <ashkenazi@...>
 

I have just seen the April 15th edition of the New York Times Book
Review, and I read a review and accompanying story that disturbed me.

I was unaware - until today - that libraries all over the world, up to
and including the U.S. Library of Congress and the venerable British
Library, are discarding original copies of archived publications that
have not only general historic significance, but also specific
genealogical value. In some (but certainly not all) cases, these
publications are being either digitized or microfilmed; however, we have
all probably strained our eyes at some point on a bad microfilm that was
simply unreadable, and the article that I refer to below has presented
an example of a digitized paragraph that was rendered unintelligible by
a less-than-perfect OCR program.

I respectfully ask you to go to the following sites and read the New
York Times book review and excerpt. I confess that I don't know what
actions, if any, are appropriate, and you may disagree with my concern.
All I ask is that you read these passages:

http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/04/15/reviews/010415.15gatest.html

http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/04/15/reviews/010415.15garner.html

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/baker-fold.html

Thanks for your time.
Neil Barmann


Actresses Muriel GRUBER and Rose SCHUMAN #general

Kathi E Freudenheim <kef2@...>
 

My mother has two pictures that may be of interest to someone. One
picture is of Muriel GRUBER, who married Leo FUCHS, the famous Yiddish
actor. No date is on the back of the picture, but Mom says it is from
the 1930's. The other picture is of Rose SCHUMAN. She played in "7th
Avenue" in 1935. Both of these woman worked with and/or knew my mother,
Jean (Jenny) KRANTZ, when they worked in New York City in the 1930's.
My mother also was a chorus girl in the Zigfeld Follies in New York.

Mom would like to know if anyone is interested in these pictures or
knows relatives of these two women. Please contact me privately.

Kathi Freudenheim
Buffalo, New York
kef2@acsu.buffalo.edu

Searching: FREUDENHEIM (Galicia & Philadelphia,Pa.);
BRAUDE (Courland, Lituania & Philadelphia,Pa.); BARSKY &
KRANTZ(Elizavetgrad [now Kirovograd],Ukraine & Philadelphia,Pa.);
EICKSON (Philadelphia,Pa.)

MODERATOR NOTE: You should also submit your message
to the Yiddish Theatre and Vaudeville Research Group
To learn more about this group read the InfoFile:
http://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/ytheatre.txt


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Actresses Muriel GRUBER and Rose SCHUMAN #general

Kathi E Freudenheim <kef2@...>
 

My mother has two pictures that may be of interest to someone. One
picture is of Muriel GRUBER, who married Leo FUCHS, the famous Yiddish
actor. No date is on the back of the picture, but Mom says it is from
the 1930's. The other picture is of Rose SCHUMAN. She played in "7th
Avenue" in 1935. Both of these woman worked with and/or knew my mother,
Jean (Jenny) KRANTZ, when they worked in New York City in the 1930's.
My mother also was a chorus girl in the Zigfeld Follies in New York.

Mom would like to know if anyone is interested in these pictures or
knows relatives of these two women. Please contact me privately.

Kathi Freudenheim
Buffalo, New York
kef2@acsu.buffalo.edu

Searching: FREUDENHEIM (Galicia & Philadelphia,Pa.);
BRAUDE (Courland, Lituania & Philadelphia,Pa.); BARSKY &
KRANTZ(Elizavetgrad [now Kirovograd],Ukraine & Philadelphia,Pa.);
EICKSON (Philadelphia,Pa.)

MODERATOR NOTE: You should also submit your message
to the Yiddish Theatre and Vaudeville Research Group
To learn more about this group read the InfoFile:
http://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/ytheatre.txt


Re: meaning of shtetl/town name Konstantine #general

Sally Hohensee <hohensees@...>
 

Re: Barry Chernick's message of April 12: Constantine the Great was a
Roman emperor in the 4th century. He rebuilt Byzantium and named it
Constantinople: it became the capital of the eastern part of the Roman
Empire. (Now Istanbul, Turkey.) He allowed Christians to practice their
religion throughout the Roman Empire and became a Christian himself.

As for your other question, the index to my atlas lists many towns in
eastern Europe beginning with Stara, Stare, Stari, Staro, and Stary.
Perhaps the "Old World" has a different attitude towards old things and
places than the "New World."

Sally Hohensee
Prairie Village, Kansas, USA

Researching: FEIGENBAUM, FEIGEN, GELBSMAN, RUGG - Lubartow, Poland,
Russia, Boston; KIPERBERG, COOPER, MARCUS - Ostrog, Russia, Boston;
HANDEL, HANDELMAN, SCHLOMJUK, SCHARF, THAU - Mikulince, Galicia, Austria,
New York; SINGER - Washkowitz/Vashkivtsi, Bukovina, Austria, New York


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen re: meaning of shtetl/town name Konstantine #general

Sally Hohensee <hohensees@...>
 

Re: Barry Chernick's message of April 12: Constantine the Great was a
Roman emperor in the 4th century. He rebuilt Byzantium and named it
Constantinople: it became the capital of the eastern part of the Roman
Empire. (Now Istanbul, Turkey.) He allowed Christians to practice their
religion throughout the Roman Empire and became a Christian himself.

As for your other question, the index to my atlas lists many towns in
eastern Europe beginning with Stara, Stare, Stari, Staro, and Stary.
Perhaps the "Old World" has a different attitude towards old things and
places than the "New World."

Sally Hohensee
Prairie Village, Kansas, USA

Researching: FEIGENBAUM, FEIGEN, GELBSMAN, RUGG - Lubartow, Poland,
Russia, Boston; KIPERBERG, COOPER, MARCUS - Ostrog, Russia, Boston;
HANDEL, HANDELMAN, SCHLOMJUK, SCHARF, THAU - Mikulince, Galicia, Austria,
New York; SINGER - Washkowitz/Vashkivtsi, Bukovina, Austria, New York


Russian Empire #general

Suzecrazy@...
 

Does anyone out there own the book "Migration >from the Russian Empire"
Volume 1 Jan 1875-Sept 1882? If you do, please respond privately.
Thank you,
Susan Stock
Agoura Hills, Ca


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Russian Empire #general

Suzecrazy@...
 

Does anyone out there own the book "Migration >from the Russian Empire"
Volume 1 Jan 1875-Sept 1882? If you do, please respond privately.
Thank you,
Susan Stock
Agoura Hills, Ca


Emigration via Cherbourg - looking for testimonies #belarus

Francois Chetreanu <chetreanu.thesis@...>
 

Dear Researchers,

I'm a French student and I currently realize a master's thesis about the
Jews which travelled to U.S.A. or anywhere in the world via Cherbourg. I'm
looking for testimonies about this survey. I posted yet a message on the
JewishGen Forum, but I thought finally that some of you may have not
subscribe to it and I prefer post the message on each particular SIG.
But of course, if you read it yet on the JewishGen Forum, don't answer me
again ;-)

For a master's thesis that I undertake about the East European Jews who
transited by theport of Cherbourg., I'm looking for relatives of Jews who
embarked inCherbourg and which could have memories or wich could have heard
about it.I'm looking also for private documents (for example, photographs,
ticket embarkation, passports if Cherbourg appears on it,...), books
citations, articles etc. Unfortunately, there isn't any records available of
the emigrants here in Cherbourg.

There was in Cherbourg two establishments specially intented to accomodate
the emigrants : the "Atlantic Hotel" for those who embarked to United
States and the "Hotel New York" for those who embarked to South America. As
Jews were numerous, these establishments had a Kosher restore controled by
rabbis. There was also private Hotels and restores for Jews. My own family
run one.

It will be very interesting to share information about this survey, and I
would appreciate any message.

Thanks in advance,

regards

Francois Chetreanu
Cherbourg / France


Belarus SIG #Belarus Emigration via Cherbourg - looking for testimonies #belarus

Francois Chetreanu <chetreanu.thesis@...>
 

Dear Researchers,

I'm a French student and I currently realize a master's thesis about the
Jews which travelled to U.S.A. or anywhere in the world via Cherbourg. I'm
looking for testimonies about this survey. I posted yet a message on the
JewishGen Forum, but I thought finally that some of you may have not
subscribe to it and I prefer post the message on each particular SIG.
But of course, if you read it yet on the JewishGen Forum, don't answer me
again ;-)

For a master's thesis that I undertake about the East European Jews who
transited by theport of Cherbourg., I'm looking for relatives of Jews who
embarked inCherbourg and which could have memories or wich could have heard
about it.I'm looking also for private documents (for example, photographs,
ticket embarkation, passports if Cherbourg appears on it,...), books
citations, articles etc. Unfortunately, there isn't any records available of
the emigrants here in Cherbourg.

There was in Cherbourg two establishments specially intented to accomodate
the emigrants : the "Atlantic Hotel" for those who embarked to United
States and the "Hotel New York" for those who embarked to South America. As
Jews were numerous, these establishments had a Kosher restore controled by
rabbis. There was also private Hotels and restores for Jews. My own family
run one.

It will be very interesting to share information about this survey, and I
would appreciate any message.

Thanks in advance,

regards

Francois Chetreanu
Cherbourg / France


Re: Stark and the Holocaust #hungary

Peter I. Hidas <thidas@...>
 


From: "Peter I. Hidas" <thidas@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Stark and the Holocaust

I am not sure that I understand the Moderator's criticism of Stark
(based on the reading of his studies?) but I believe Tamas Stark made
a serious effort to count the number of victims. He pointed out that
a number of Hungarian Jews never returned to Hungary after the
Holocaust; they left for the West or for Israel. There is the problem
of the converted Jews; most of them were never counted but were
classified as Jews by the Jewish Laws in Hungary (the third one).
Historians and politicians do make estimates when the data in not
absolute. One thing is sure; the historian Stark is a serious
scholar and deserve fair treatment just like other well-meaning
writers.

--
Dr. Peter I. Hidas
thidas@sympatico.ca
peterhidas@yahoo.com


Hungary SIG #Hungary Fwd: Re: Stark and the Holocaust #hungary

Peter I. Hidas <thidas@...>
 


From: "Peter I. Hidas" <thidas@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Stark and the Holocaust

I am not sure that I understand the Moderator's criticism of Stark
(based on the reading of his studies?) but I believe Tamas Stark made
a serious effort to count the number of victims. He pointed out that
a number of Hungarian Jews never returned to Hungary after the
Holocaust; they left for the West or for Israel. There is the problem
of the converted Jews; most of them were never counted but were
classified as Jews by the Jewish Laws in Hungary (the third one).
Historians and politicians do make estimates when the data in not
absolute. One thing is sure; the historian Stark is a serious
scholar and deserve fair treatment just like other well-meaning
writers.

--
Dr. Peter I. Hidas
thidas@sympatico.ca
peterhidas@yahoo.com


*re: Stark and the Holocaust #hungary

Peter I. Hidas <thidas@...>
 

Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:10:37 -0400
To: Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@uol.com.br>
From: "Peter I. Hidas" <thidas@sympatico.ca>
Subject: *re: Stark and the Holocaust
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:

Even if this subject will not pass the acid test of genealogical
researching, it is *very important*,

Scholars are not allowed to work on the topic?

exactly because of the perspective Louis brought up: Holocaust
revisionists are working hard NOW to negate and discredit the full
Shoah,

Stark is not one of them.

mainly the claim that 6 million Jews were savagely murdered by the
Nazis and their goons. In the case of Hungary, the almost
irrefutable

almost? irrefutable?

number of 550,000 victims is given by Prof. R. Braham in his
famous book (The Politics of Genocide)

the first edition had many mistakes in it. Now it is revised.

because all the deportation transports >from Hungary have been
thoroughly tallied. As it is well known, the majority of the
Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz >from where they never
returned.

Including my grandparents, uncles and aunts and so on.

One has to argue with facts, quotes, research, etc. Being a trained
objective historian helps.

Best wishes,

Peter
--
Dr. Peter I. Hidas
thidas@sympatico.ca
peterhidas@yahoo.com

At my home page you can find some of my writings:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/thidas
For photographs go to
http://www.community.webshots.com/user/peterhidas


Mod.'s note Re/ Stark and the Holocaust #hungary

Gzsuzsi@...
 

I applaud Louis for taking a stand and speaking out. While I agree that a
certain standard should be used in documenting the number of those who
perished during the Holocaust and, of course a universally agreed upon norm
would be the optimum, one should not use a sterile, scientific approach to
documenting these numbers. Certainly not in written material that can and
will be used for research. Making a statement, let's say about 400,000
victims, then 'modifying' it by another fifty to one hundred thousand souls
is insulting at best and unscientific at worst.

Data >from Jewish Communities and survivors who knew victims should be used
for documentation. How are those who died be ever accounted for,
particularly at this point in time? They are certainly not able to speak for
themselves; if they had no relatives or friends in Israel when the Yizkor
books were created and names documented by Yad Vashem, who would ever know
about their existence? I would like to especially emphasize young children
where the entire family perished.

Good as the German 'bookkeeping' was, they never had time to document those
Hungarian Jews who were deported to Auschwitz and exterminated at the end of
May 1944 >from Erdely (Transylvania), for instance. And here, I would like to
bring to your attention that there is an ongoing list on the Oradea
(Nagyvarad) Yizkor Book Translation website, where you can still add the
names of those victims that you know of and who are not included in the list,
by sending me an e-mail.

I believe it is important that we, researchers of our genealogical
background, be aware of this issue and would like to thank Peter Hidas and
Louis for bringing it to our attention.

Regards,

Susan Geroe
San Diego, CA

In a message dated 4/13/01 1:45:44 PM mod. writes:



mod.- Tamas Stark's number of victims were initially reported to be

400,000. Apparently, after further investigation he has added an

additional 50,000 victims, and POSSIBLY (emphasis is mine) a further

100,000 victims. Professor Braham estimates that 550,000 Jews were

murdered in the Hungarian holocaust. More than anything, my concern is

the "statistical" approach taken by Dr. Stark: in order to include a

victim in the final total one must prove that fact; therefore, without

measurable scientific proof, the victim may not be included in the

total "tally". This is different than taking the numbers postulated by the

Jewish community and verifying their number. Allow me to make my point by

the use of analogy: if there 100 rapes reported in a given community for a

particular time span, does that mean that the number is accurate. I think

most fair-minded observers would agree that the 100 number is minimum

since there would be rape victims that might not report the

incident (for a variety of valid reasons); the method used by Stark would

require that the 100 number is subject to validation and that it is

necessary to prove each case. I realize that the analogy has its faults,

but the attitude, and hence the methodology of the researcher demonstrates

a bias that one should reflect upon. A final point: I understand that some

may be offended by discussing the holocaust in terms of numbers, but, if

not today, perhaps twenty years hence, there will be those who will

challenge the scope and severity of the Holocaust, and they will use such

numbers as evidence that the Holocaust and all that happened then was

exaggerated.LS


Hungary SIG #Hungary Fwd: *re: Stark and the Holocaust #hungary

Peter I. Hidas <thidas@...>
 

Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:10:37 -0400
To: Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@uol.com.br>
From: "Peter I. Hidas" <thidas@sympatico.ca>
Subject: *re: Stark and the Holocaust
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:

Even if this subject will not pass the acid test of genealogical
researching, it is *very important*,

Scholars are not allowed to work on the topic?

exactly because of the perspective Louis brought up: Holocaust
revisionists are working hard NOW to negate and discredit the full
Shoah,

Stark is not one of them.

mainly the claim that 6 million Jews were savagely murdered by the
Nazis and their goons. In the case of Hungary, the almost
irrefutable

almost? irrefutable?

number of 550,000 victims is given by Prof. R. Braham in his
famous book (The Politics of Genocide)

the first edition had many mistakes in it. Now it is revised.

because all the deportation transports >from Hungary have been
thoroughly tallied. As it is well known, the majority of the
Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz >from where they never
returned.

Including my grandparents, uncles and aunts and so on.

One has to argue with facts, quotes, research, etc. Being a trained
objective historian helps.

Best wishes,

Peter
--
Dr. Peter I. Hidas
thidas@sympatico.ca
peterhidas@yahoo.com

At my home page you can find some of my writings:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/thidas
For photographs go to
http://www.community.webshots.com/user/peterhidas


Hungary SIG #Hungary Mod.'s note Re/ Stark and the Holocaust #hungary

Gzsuzsi@...
 

I applaud Louis for taking a stand and speaking out. While I agree that a
certain standard should be used in documenting the number of those who
perished during the Holocaust and, of course a universally agreed upon norm
would be the optimum, one should not use a sterile, scientific approach to
documenting these numbers. Certainly not in written material that can and
will be used for research. Making a statement, let's say about 400,000
victims, then 'modifying' it by another fifty to one hundred thousand souls
is insulting at best and unscientific at worst.

Data >from Jewish Communities and survivors who knew victims should be used
for documentation. How are those who died be ever accounted for,
particularly at this point in time? They are certainly not able to speak for
themselves; if they had no relatives or friends in Israel when the Yizkor
books were created and names documented by Yad Vashem, who would ever know
about their existence? I would like to especially emphasize young children
where the entire family perished.

Good as the German 'bookkeeping' was, they never had time to document those
Hungarian Jews who were deported to Auschwitz and exterminated at the end of
May 1944 >from Erdely (Transylvania), for instance. And here, I would like to
bring to your attention that there is an ongoing list on the Oradea
(Nagyvarad) Yizkor Book Translation website, where you can still add the
names of those victims that you know of and who are not included in the list,
by sending me an e-mail.

I believe it is important that we, researchers of our genealogical
background, be aware of this issue and would like to thank Peter Hidas and
Louis for bringing it to our attention.

Regards,

Susan Geroe
San Diego, CA

In a message dated 4/13/01 1:45:44 PM mod. writes:



mod.- Tamas Stark's number of victims were initially reported to be

400,000. Apparently, after further investigation he has added an

additional 50,000 victims, and POSSIBLY (emphasis is mine) a further

100,000 victims. Professor Braham estimates that 550,000 Jews were

murdered in the Hungarian holocaust. More than anything, my concern is

the "statistical" approach taken by Dr. Stark: in order to include a

victim in the final total one must prove that fact; therefore, without

measurable scientific proof, the victim may not be included in the

total "tally". This is different than taking the numbers postulated by the

Jewish community and verifying their number. Allow me to make my point by

the use of analogy: if there 100 rapes reported in a given community for a

particular time span, does that mean that the number is accurate. I think

most fair-minded observers would agree that the 100 number is minimum

since there would be rape victims that might not report the

incident (for a variety of valid reasons); the method used by Stark would

require that the 100 number is subject to validation and that it is

necessary to prove each case. I realize that the analogy has its faults,

but the attitude, and hence the methodology of the researcher demonstrates

a bias that one should reflect upon. A final point: I understand that some

may be offended by discussing the holocaust in terms of numbers, but, if

not today, perhaps twenty years hence, there will be those who will

challenge the scope and severity of the Holocaust, and they will use such

numbers as evidence that the Holocaust and all that happened then was

exaggerated.LS


Stark and the Holocaust #hungary

PGergay@...
 

In a message dated 4/13/01 1:45:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, you wrote:

<< mod.- Tamas Stark's number of victims were initially reported to be
400,000. Apparently, after further investigation he has added an
additional 50,000 victims, and POSSIBLY (emphasis is mine) a further
100,000 victims. Professor Braham estimates that 550,000 Jews were
murdered in the Hungarian holocaust. More than anything, my concern is
the "statistical" approach taken by Dr. Stark: in order to include a
victim in the final total one must prove that fact; therefore, without
measurable scientific proof, the victim may not be included in the
total "tally". This is different than taking the numbers postulated by the
Jewish community and verifying their number. Allow me to make my point by
the use of analogy: if there 100 rapes reported in a given community for a
particular time span, does that mean that the number is accurate. I think
most fair-minded observers would agree that the 100 number is minimum
since there would be rape victims that might not report the
incident (for a variety of valid reasons); the method used by Stark would
require that the 100 number is subject to validation and that it is
necessary to prove each case. I realize that the analogy has its faults,
but the attitude, and hence the methodology of the researcher demonstrates
a bias that one should reflect upon. A final point: I understand that some
may be offended by discussing the holocaust in terms of numbers, but, if
not today, perhaps twenty years hence, there will be those who will
challenge the scope and severity of the Holocaust, and they will use such
numbers as evidence that the Holocaust and all that happened then was
exaggerated.LS >>

Dear Louis,

If I may say so: once again, you articulated the point(s) compellingly!
Looking beyond a dubious method of "calculation", it is clear that your
insight extends not only into cause-and-effect relationships, but also into
FUTURE cause-and-effect relationships. Needless to say, I fully agree with
you. Of course, well beyond the particulars of Holocaust, my disdain for ANY
historical revisionism is deep and-----emotional.... I don't even specially
care about the source; to me, the rantings and ravings of those on the
lunatic right are just as bad as the "politically correct" rearranging of
facts on the left...As for the "discoveries" and subsequent bombastic
pronouncements of those in the academic world, I think that, by now, you know
my opinion of this kind of grandstanding...Finally, allow me to salute you
particularly for the obvious "subtext" of your comments: there is a very,
very thin line, indeed, between Holocaust minimizers and Holocaust deniers
(one could even say that the lines of demarcation are kind of blurred....).

Peter A. Gergay
San Francisco, CA


Hungary SIG #Hungary Stark and the Holocaust #hungary

PGergay@...
 

In a message dated 4/13/01 1:45:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, you wrote:

<< mod.- Tamas Stark's number of victims were initially reported to be
400,000. Apparently, after further investigation he has added an
additional 50,000 victims, and POSSIBLY (emphasis is mine) a further
100,000 victims. Professor Braham estimates that 550,000 Jews were
murdered in the Hungarian holocaust. More than anything, my concern is
the "statistical" approach taken by Dr. Stark: in order to include a
victim in the final total one must prove that fact; therefore, without
measurable scientific proof, the victim may not be included in the
total "tally". This is different than taking the numbers postulated by the
Jewish community and verifying their number. Allow me to make my point by
the use of analogy: if there 100 rapes reported in a given community for a
particular time span, does that mean that the number is accurate. I think
most fair-minded observers would agree that the 100 number is minimum
since there would be rape victims that might not report the
incident (for a variety of valid reasons); the method used by Stark would
require that the 100 number is subject to validation and that it is
necessary to prove each case. I realize that the analogy has its faults,
but the attitude, and hence the methodology of the researcher demonstrates
a bias that one should reflect upon. A final point: I understand that some
may be offended by discussing the holocaust in terms of numbers, but, if
not today, perhaps twenty years hence, there will be those who will
challenge the scope and severity of the Holocaust, and they will use such
numbers as evidence that the Holocaust and all that happened then was
exaggerated.LS >>

Dear Louis,

If I may say so: once again, you articulated the point(s) compellingly!
Looking beyond a dubious method of "calculation", it is clear that your
insight extends not only into cause-and-effect relationships, but also into
FUTURE cause-and-effect relationships. Needless to say, I fully agree with
you. Of course, well beyond the particulars of Holocaust, my disdain for ANY
historical revisionism is deep and-----emotional.... I don't even specially
care about the source; to me, the rantings and ravings of those on the
lunatic right are just as bad as the "politically correct" rearranging of
facts on the left...As for the "discoveries" and subsequent bombastic
pronouncements of those in the academic world, I think that, by now, you know
my opinion of this kind of grandstanding...Finally, allow me to salute you
particularly for the obvious "subtext" of your comments: there is a very,
very thin line, indeed, between Holocaust minimizers and Holocaust deniers
(one could even say that the lines of demarcation are kind of blurred....).

Peter A. Gergay
San Francisco, CA


Tamas Stark's work #hungary

MTB <71431.1612@...>
 

As a colleague and friend of Tamas Stark, I was delighted to read Doctor
Braham's synopsis of =

Tamas Stark's professional reputation in Hungary, according to his fellow=
s
and the director at the
Institute of History in Budapest. Braham is regarded universally as the
premier modern historian of =

Hungarian Jewry. =


True, Braham and Stark have arrived at different totals for the Holocaust=

toll in Greater Hungary, in =

part because they used somewhat different sources and in part because the=
y
used different methods. =


Although I am a pre-1920 specialist, I am familiar with both authors'
works. I am confident that =

neither scholar began with a higher or lower figure of the Holocaust tol =
in
his mind, and then used his =

research to 'prove' his conclusion. Rather, I am certain that Braham and=

Stark each set out to =

determine the scope of the Holocaust in Hungary, and advanced his claim
according to the data in the =

sources he used. They are both scholars of highest integrity, and would
never 'dedicate' themselves to =

claim something counter to the sources.

Readers of H-Sig will profit considerably >from having a look at each
author's work.

Maureen Tighe-Brown


Hungary SIG #Hungary Tamas Stark's work #hungary

MTB <71431.1612@...>
 

As a colleague and friend of Tamas Stark, I was delighted to read Doctor
Braham's synopsis of =

Tamas Stark's professional reputation in Hungary, according to his fellow=
s
and the director at the
Institute of History in Budapest. Braham is regarded universally as the
premier modern historian of =

Hungarian Jewry. =


True, Braham and Stark have arrived at different totals for the Holocaust=

toll in Greater Hungary, in =

part because they used somewhat different sources and in part because the=
y
used different methods. =


Although I am a pre-1920 specialist, I am familiar with both authors'
works. I am confident that =

neither scholar began with a higher or lower figure of the Holocaust tol =
in
his mind, and then used his =

research to 'prove' his conclusion. Rather, I am certain that Braham and=

Stark each set out to =

determine the scope of the Holocaust in Hungary, and advanced his claim
according to the data in the =

sources he used. They are both scholars of highest integrity, and would
never 'dedicate' themselves to =

claim something counter to the sources.

Readers of H-Sig will profit considerably >from having a look at each
author's work.

Maureen Tighe-Brown