Date   

Re: Bayla and Bilhah #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 6/17/2002 7:29:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
hennynow@pacbell.net writes:

<< Ida is the first person, I think, to ascribe the correct
derivation of "Bayla" to "Bilhah," as shown by the late Rabbi
Shmuel Gorr, in his book, "Jewish Personal Names...."
==I take issue with the concept that there can ever be such a
thing as "the correct derivation" of any name. We may say
"possibly" or "probably," we may bring evidence based on one
case or two or three. The fact that a certain Beyle or Bellah
had the Hebrew name Bilhah informs us only that these were
then names given to her or assumed by her, but does not tell
us which was the original name and which the derived name.

==I am sure Rabbi Gorr was a very pious person, a great scholar
and Talmudist, but I am not convinced that Rabbi Gorr was a
major scholar when it came to Jewish names. Even Homer nods.
And even as prodigous an authority on Jewish first names like
Alexander Beider has occasional lapses.

Allow me to summarize and paraphrase what I found in the book:
Bilhah is biblical, cf. Bereishit, 30:3-8. "To act rashly out of
confusion." She was Rachel's handmaiden and a legal concubine of
Jacob, and bore him two sons, Dan and Naftali.
==To the best of my knowledge, Jewish women are generally not named
after the concubines of the patriarchs, not Hagar, not Keturah,
not Bilhah and not Zilpah. I don't doubt that there may have been
one or two here and there whos started off with these concubinal
names and later adopted a more common kinnuy, but none of these
is likely to have been the originator for as common a name as
Bella/Beyla. (Hagar->Hadar, Zilpah -> Zipporah anyone?)

What is interesting, in light of the previous discussion of
the provenance of the name in this group, is Rabbi Gorr's
explanation that the Spanish and Italian name Bella (beautiful)
has no connection whatsoever with the biblical name Bilhah whose
root means 'confusion.'
==Rabbi Gorr is undoubtedly correct. To which I may add that no
parent would be so cruel (or so unconcerned with the Evil Eye)
as to call a child "Confusion"--or Stupidity, Stubbornness, or
Silly.

This phonetic similarity, and its meaning of 'beautiful,' made
it a popular name for one with the name Bilhah. See also Yaffa.
Rabbi Gorr further states that the Hebrew female name Bilhah was
very popular in pre-expulsion Spain, as it permitted its bearer to
disguise it among the Gentiles by using the name Bella (beautiful).
==This puts me into a state of confusion (Bilhah?). To the best
of my knowledge, Jews in Iberia regularly gave their children names
in the local vernacular, whether Arabic or Spanish or Portuguese.
Nor did they hide their Jewish nationality/religion, which was,
in any event, common knowledge. Judah was known as Leon, my
putative ancestor YomTob was known as Bongiorn, later Bonet.

=What is clear >from centuries of records is that Jewish women in
Spain had the names Bella and Isabella (despite the fact that many
Jews believe the name to be derived >from Jezebel, the villainous
wife of King Ahab), that the name Bella traveled through France to
Germany, and that in its transmission East took on various Yiddish
forms such as Beyla.

==I learned a maxim once that one should never argue with the dead
(because they can't argue back?); my argument is with those who
would claim that anyone knows the "correct" derivation for any
name for everyone.

Michael Bernet, New York <mBernet@aol.com>

WOLFF (Pfungstadt, Frankfurt/M, Koenigsberg, Amsterdam, N.Carolina);
BERNET, BERNERT, JONDORF(Frensdorf, Bamberg, Nurnberg); FEUCHTWANGER
(Schwabach, Hagenbach & Fuerth); KONIGSHOFER (anywhere); BERG, WOLF(F),
(Demmelsdorf & Zeckendorf); Shim`on GUTENSTEIN (Bad Homburg ca 1760);
FRENSDORF/ER (anywhere); MAINZER (Lorsch); anyone in Ermreuth or Floss;
GOLDSCHMIDT (B. Homburg, Hessdorf). ALTMANN (Silesia); TIMMENDORFER


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Bayla and Bilhah #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 6/17/2002 7:29:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
hennynow@pacbell.net writes:

<< Ida is the first person, I think, to ascribe the correct
derivation of "Bayla" to "Bilhah," as shown by the late Rabbi
Shmuel Gorr, in his book, "Jewish Personal Names...."
==I take issue with the concept that there can ever be such a
thing as "the correct derivation" of any name. We may say
"possibly" or "probably," we may bring evidence based on one
case or two or three. The fact that a certain Beyle or Bellah
had the Hebrew name Bilhah informs us only that these were
then names given to her or assumed by her, but does not tell
us which was the original name and which the derived name.

==I am sure Rabbi Gorr was a very pious person, a great scholar
and Talmudist, but I am not convinced that Rabbi Gorr was a
major scholar when it came to Jewish names. Even Homer nods.
And even as prodigous an authority on Jewish first names like
Alexander Beider has occasional lapses.

Allow me to summarize and paraphrase what I found in the book:
Bilhah is biblical, cf. Bereishit, 30:3-8. "To act rashly out of
confusion." She was Rachel's handmaiden and a legal concubine of
Jacob, and bore him two sons, Dan and Naftali.
==To the best of my knowledge, Jewish women are generally not named
after the concubines of the patriarchs, not Hagar, not Keturah,
not Bilhah and not Zilpah. I don't doubt that there may have been
one or two here and there whos started off with these concubinal
names and later adopted a more common kinnuy, but none of these
is likely to have been the originator for as common a name as
Bella/Beyla. (Hagar->Hadar, Zilpah -> Zipporah anyone?)

What is interesting, in light of the previous discussion of
the provenance of the name in this group, is Rabbi Gorr's
explanation that the Spanish and Italian name Bella (beautiful)
has no connection whatsoever with the biblical name Bilhah whose
root means 'confusion.'
==Rabbi Gorr is undoubtedly correct. To which I may add that no
parent would be so cruel (or so unconcerned with the Evil Eye)
as to call a child "Confusion"--or Stupidity, Stubbornness, or
Silly.

This phonetic similarity, and its meaning of 'beautiful,' made
it a popular name for one with the name Bilhah. See also Yaffa.
Rabbi Gorr further states that the Hebrew female name Bilhah was
very popular in pre-expulsion Spain, as it permitted its bearer to
disguise it among the Gentiles by using the name Bella (beautiful).
==This puts me into a state of confusion (Bilhah?). To the best
of my knowledge, Jews in Iberia regularly gave their children names
in the local vernacular, whether Arabic or Spanish or Portuguese.
Nor did they hide their Jewish nationality/religion, which was,
in any event, common knowledge. Judah was known as Leon, my
putative ancestor YomTob was known as Bongiorn, later Bonet.

=What is clear >from centuries of records is that Jewish women in
Spain had the names Bella and Isabella (despite the fact that many
Jews believe the name to be derived >from Jezebel, the villainous
wife of King Ahab), that the name Bella traveled through France to
Germany, and that in its transmission East took on various Yiddish
forms such as Beyla.

==I learned a maxim once that one should never argue with the dead
(because they can't argue back?); my argument is with those who
would claim that anyone knows the "correct" derivation for any
name for everyone.

Michael Bernet, New York <mBernet@aol.com>

WOLFF (Pfungstadt, Frankfurt/M, Koenigsberg, Amsterdam, N.Carolina);
BERNET, BERNERT, JONDORF(Frensdorf, Bamberg, Nurnberg); FEUCHTWANGER
(Schwabach, Hagenbach & Fuerth); KONIGSHOFER (anywhere); BERG, WOLF(F),
(Demmelsdorf & Zeckendorf); Shim`on GUTENSTEIN (Bad Homburg ca 1760);
FRENSDORF/ER (anywhere); MAINZER (Lorsch); anyone in Ermreuth or Floss;
GOLDSCHMIDT (B. Homburg, Hessdorf). ALTMANN (Silesia); TIMMENDORFER


Re: German or Polish translation requested #galicia

lilian schorr <lilianschorr@...>
 

Dear Genners,
It is overwhelming the amount of replies I received, even
from Germany!!! Thank you so much, to each and every one
of you. Now I can go on with searches for my ancestors.
I couldn't do it without you.

Thank you

Lilian Schorr Landes
Buenos Aires, Argentina

MODERATOR NOTE: For all of us who have received help or made
connections through JewishGen, remember that a good way to say
"thank you" is through a contribution. JewishGen's programs and
activities depend on each of us for support! You can find out
more at http://www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen-erosity/


Re: Bayla #general

jeanne4_98nospam@yahoo.com <jeanne4_98@...>
 

For what it's worth, my grandmother Beila SANKTIN SLATAS
chose to use the name Bella after she emigrated to the US.

Please Note: I have modified my "reply to" address in an
effort to avoid automated spam. If you wish to reply to me,
use the following address: jeanne4_98 at yahoo.com.

Barbara Sloan
New Haven, CT

Searching SLATAS/ZLATIS/SLATIS, SANCTON/SANKTIN/SENKTIN,
SLONIMSKY/SLONIMSKI, PASSIN, WEINGER/WENGER--Belarus,
Lithuania, Russia, USA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: German or Polish translation requested #general

lilian schorr <lilianschorr@...>
 

Dear Genners,
It is overwhelming the amount of replies I received, even
from Germany!!! Thank you so much, to each and every one
of you. Now I can go on with searches for my ancestors.
I couldn't do it without you.

Thank you

Lilian Schorr Landes
Buenos Aires, Argentina

MODERATOR NOTE: For all of us who have received help or made
connections through JewishGen, remember that a good way to say
"thank you" is through a contribution. JewishGen's programs and
activities depend on each of us for support! You can find out
more at http://www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen-erosity/


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Bayla #general

jeanne4_98nospam@yahoo.com <jeanne4_98@...>
 

For what it's worth, my grandmother Beila SANKTIN SLATAS
chose to use the name Bella after she emigrated to the US.

Please Note: I have modified my "reply to" address in an
effort to avoid automated spam. If you wish to reply to me,
use the following address: jeanne4_98 at yahoo.com.

Barbara Sloan
New Haven, CT

Searching SLATAS/ZLATIS/SLATIS, SANCTON/SANKTIN/SENKTIN,
SLONIMSKY/SLONIMSKI, PASSIN, WEINGER/WENGER--Belarus,
Lithuania, Russia, USA


Seeking Family of Sylvia and Shirley SOLD #general

Carole Glick Feinberg <feincgs@...>
 

Dear Genners,

In 1930, Sylvia, 20, and Shirley SOLD, 23, were living in
the Bronx, New York with their uncle and aunt, Sam (Israel)
and Yetta SOMERFLECK.

In 1921, Rachela SOLD, 40, immigrated to New York City
with her daughters, Sprinca, 10, and Sara, 15.
Sprinca is probably Sylvia, and Sara is probably Shirley.

Rachela, Sprinca, and Sara were born in Szczerzec, Matop
(Poland). Does anyone know what Matop refers to?
The last residence was P. Levoir, Matop. What or where is
"P. Levoir?" It looks like it could be a
French name. Based on previous knowledge, I am fairly
certain that the ancestral town was Szczerzec.

Thank you in advance for anticipated assistance.

Please respond to me privately, unless you believe the
information you wish to share might be of
value to others.

If anyone knows of this SOLD family please contact me.

Best wishes,

Carole Glick Feinberg
Atlanta, Georgia, USA

Researching: SOMERFLECK/Zbarazh area settlements of
Kiydantsy and Romanowe Siolo.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Seeking Family of Sylvia and Shirley SOLD #general

Carole Glick Feinberg <feincgs@...>
 

Dear Genners,

In 1930, Sylvia, 20, and Shirley SOLD, 23, were living in
the Bronx, New York with their uncle and aunt, Sam (Israel)
and Yetta SOMERFLECK.

In 1921, Rachela SOLD, 40, immigrated to New York City
with her daughters, Sprinca, 10, and Sara, 15.
Sprinca is probably Sylvia, and Sara is probably Shirley.

Rachela, Sprinca, and Sara were born in Szczerzec, Matop
(Poland). Does anyone know what Matop refers to?
The last residence was P. Levoir, Matop. What or where is
"P. Levoir?" It looks like it could be a
French name. Based on previous knowledge, I am fairly
certain that the ancestral town was Szczerzec.

Thank you in advance for anticipated assistance.

Please respond to me privately, unless you believe the
information you wish to share might be of
value to others.

If anyone knows of this SOLD family please contact me.

Best wishes,

Carole Glick Feinberg
Atlanta, Georgia, USA

Researching: SOMERFLECK/Zbarazh area settlements of
Kiydantsy and Romanowe Siolo.


Re: "Americanizing" names of relatives who never came here #belarus

Irene Newhouse <einew@...>
 

When I asked one of my cousins if her mother never asked her father, the
immigrant, about siblings who never came here, she said, "They were too busy
trying to be Americans to think about the relatives who stayed". I'm sure
that was so true of many recent immigrants, and I try to keep that in mind
when I look at family information.

My own story along those lines is that the relative who sponsored our family
into the US in the 1950s had to file an Affidavit of Support with the INS,
which I obtained via a Freedom of Information request. He was required to
list his father's name. Now this relative had Americanized his surname by
truncating its original 3 syllables to the first syllable only. He did list
his original surname on the Affidavit, but then he gave his father's name
with the American surname! I know his father never came to the US because
another cousin he sponsored, who had had fairly regular contact with his
father before she came to the US, said so & she would have known that.

Irene Newhouse
Kihei HI


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: "Americanizing" names of relatives who never came here #belarus

Irene Newhouse <einew@...>
 

When I asked one of my cousins if her mother never asked her father, the
immigrant, about siblings who never came here, she said, "They were too busy
trying to be Americans to think about the relatives who stayed". I'm sure
that was so true of many recent immigrants, and I try to keep that in mind
when I look at family information.

My own story along those lines is that the relative who sponsored our family
into the US in the 1950s had to file an Affidavit of Support with the INS,
which I obtained via a Freedom of Information request. He was required to
list his father's name. Now this relative had Americanized his surname by
truncating its original 3 syllables to the first syllable only. He did list
his original surname on the Affidavit, but then he gave his father's name
with the American surname! I know his father never came to the US because
another cousin he sponsored, who had had fairly regular contact with his
father before she came to the US, said so & she would have known that.

Irene Newhouse
Kihei HI


Chazon Ish, rabbi in Kosow-Poleski, Belarus? #belarus

Ginsburg, Paul <GinsburgP@...>
 

I have read that Rabbi Karelitz, the Chazon Ish
was a rabbi (Av Beis Din) in Kosova.

Kosow-Poleski (Poland/Russia - today Belarus) is also known Kosova.
and is located near Slonim and Pruzhany.

Does anyone know where the "Kosova" associated with the Chazon
Ish was located?

Paul W. Ginsburg
Rockville, Maryland


Belarus SIG #Belarus Chazon Ish, rabbi in Kosow-Poleski, Belarus? #belarus

Ginsburg, Paul <GinsburgP@...>
 

I have read that Rabbi Karelitz, the Chazon Ish
was a rabbi (Av Beis Din) in Kosova.

Kosow-Poleski (Poland/Russia - today Belarus) is also known Kosova.
and is located near Slonim and Pruzhany.

Does anyone know where the "Kosova" associated with the Chazon
Ish was located?

Paul W. Ginsburg
Rockville, Maryland


Lost Gusberg child #general

peter19252000@...
 

Hello Listers:

I am seeking information on a child born to Clara GUSBERG
sometime in the few years prior to 1919 when she had a son
in Sept. in Hartford CT. She also lived in Newark, N.J. (her
place of birth in 1896); MD.; NY.; PA.; RI., and DEL. that I
know of. This is urgent!

peter19252000@juno.com
Peter B. McCue
East Hanover, N.J.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Lost Gusberg child #general

peter19252000@...
 

Hello Listers:

I am seeking information on a child born to Clara GUSBERG
sometime in the few years prior to 1919 when she had a son
in Sept. in Hartford CT. She also lived in Newark, N.J. (her
place of birth in 1896); MD.; NY.; PA.; RI., and DEL. that I
know of. This is urgent!

peter19252000@juno.com
Peter B. McCue
East Hanover, N.J.


Re: Spole Zeide #poland

Annette Young
 

My thanks to those who responded to my request for information on Spole
Zeide. I have received much information for further research on this most
colorful "tzaddik" >from both your sig as well as Ravsig. The original book
I had quoted >from spelled the name Spole, which on Shtetl seeker was shown
in Poland. Now that I have found the correct spelling "Shpole Zeide" living
in Ukraine, his era and story of how he got his name I will have to do more
digging. Was told my Zeide came >from Belarus which would be about 6
generations later so have never researched in Ukraine.
Annette Young


JRI Poland #Poland Re: Spole Zeide #poland

Annette Young
 

My thanks to those who responded to my request for information on Spole
Zeide. I have received much information for further research on this most
colorful "tzaddik" >from both your sig as well as Ravsig. The original book
I had quoted >from spelled the name Spole, which on Shtetl seeker was shown
in Poland. Now that I have found the correct spelling "Shpole Zeide" living
in Ukraine, his era and story of how he got his name I will have to do more
digging. Was told my Zeide came >from Belarus which would be about 6
generations later so have never researched in Ukraine.
Annette Young


Dr. Rudolph S. WILSHER - Asheville, NC #general

Ginsburg, Paul <GinsburgP@...>
 

Anyone familiar with Dr. Rudolph S. WILSHER,
a professor in Asheville, NC who passed away
in 1997, please contact me.

He is a distant family member and I am trying to
get in touch with his family.

Thank you.


MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately.

Paul W. Ginsburg
Rockville, Maryland


Independent Order of the Free Sons of Judah #general

Sharon <sshure@...>
 

I would like to know what this organization was about. We recently
located a certificate of membership for my grandfather in the Harlem
lodge, # 39. The certificate is partially missing as it was cut in
half and used as a backing in a picture frame. I believe it is dated
1911. Can someone explain this fraternal organization? Thank you.

Sharon Shure
shure@juno.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Dr. Rudolph S. WILSHER - Asheville, NC #general

Ginsburg, Paul <GinsburgP@...>
 

Anyone familiar with Dr. Rudolph S. WILSHER,
a professor in Asheville, NC who passed away
in 1997, please contact me.

He is a distant family member and I am trying to
get in touch with his family.

Thank you.


MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately.

Paul W. Ginsburg
Rockville, Maryland


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Independent Order of the Free Sons of Judah #general

Sharon <sshure@...>
 

I would like to know what this organization was about. We recently
located a certificate of membership for my grandfather in the Harlem
lodge, # 39. The certificate is partially missing as it was cut in
half and used as a backing in a picture frame. I believe it is dated
1911. Can someone explain this fraternal organization? Thank you.

Sharon Shure
shure@juno.com