Date   

Re: Laser Family #courland #latvia

martha <martha@...>
 

I am still looking for the family of my Grandfather, Samuel Laser.
Dorothy, it is a little difficult to help you with your search when
you do not give dates for your grandfather. In fact, the gravestone
reading of your gf's name, if written as you say, "Shlomo ben
Israel", means that his name was Salomon son of Israel and not
Samuel, son of Israel.

In 1845, there were several LASER families living in Mitau. One of
them has Salomon, the son of Ruben, who was 61 at the time, and his
three sons: Kallman [age 28], Israel [age 21] and Abraham [who was 5
in 1834]. Knowing our Courlander naming patterns, Israel would no
doubt name his son after his father, whenever Israel's father,
Salomon, died.

I hope that this is helpful to you, but without dates, it is hard to know.

Martha
--
Martha Levinson Lev-Zion, Ph.D.
President, SIG Latvia
Steering committee of the Courland Research Group


Courland SIG #Courland #Latvia Re: Laser Family #courland #latvia

martha <martha@...>
 

I am still looking for the family of my Grandfather, Samuel Laser.
Dorothy, it is a little difficult to help you with your search when
you do not give dates for your grandfather. In fact, the gravestone
reading of your gf's name, if written as you say, "Shlomo ben
Israel", means that his name was Salomon son of Israel and not
Samuel, son of Israel.

In 1845, there were several LASER families living in Mitau. One of
them has Salomon, the son of Ruben, who was 61 at the time, and his
three sons: Kallman [age 28], Israel [age 21] and Abraham [who was 5
in 1834]. Knowing our Courlander naming patterns, Israel would no
doubt name his son after his father, whenever Israel's father,
Salomon, died.

I hope that this is helpful to you, but without dates, it is hard to know.

Martha
--
Martha Levinson Lev-Zion, Ph.D.
President, SIG Latvia
Steering committee of the Courland Research Group


Looking for Descendants of Hyman HARRIS #general

Shawn Harris <mail@...>
 

Hello Fellow Genners,

I'm trying to re-connect with a line of the family that we've lost touch
with long, long ago. My grandfather, Morris HARRIS(AKA Maurice), had a
brother, Hyman HARRIS(AKA Hymie or Harry). Their parents were Max HARRIS
and Annie BERNSTEIN, both born in Russia; and immigrated to England about
1900.

Hyman HARRIS was born about 1900; probably in Russia. He lived with his
wife and daughter, Susan Harris in Derby England. Susan was born about
1936. I have reason to believe that Susan married and moved to San
Francisco in the late 1950's, but I'm not certain of this. It's possible
that she's still in England.

Please contact me privately, if you know the whereabouts of Susan HARRIS,
or any of her children.

Thank you.
--
Shawn Harris
Everett, WA
mail@shawnharris-NOSPAM-.net
If you reply, be sure and remove the '-NOSPAM-' >from my email address.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Looking for Descendants of Hyman HARRIS #general

Shawn Harris <mail@...>
 

Hello Fellow Genners,

I'm trying to re-connect with a line of the family that we've lost touch
with long, long ago. My grandfather, Morris HARRIS(AKA Maurice), had a
brother, Hyman HARRIS(AKA Hymie or Harry). Their parents were Max HARRIS
and Annie BERNSTEIN, both born in Russia; and immigrated to England about
1900.

Hyman HARRIS was born about 1900; probably in Russia. He lived with his
wife and daughter, Susan Harris in Derby England. Susan was born about
1936. I have reason to believe that Susan married and moved to San
Francisco in the late 1950's, but I'm not certain of this. It's possible
that she's still in England.

Please contact me privately, if you know the whereabouts of Susan HARRIS,
or any of her children.

Thank you.
--
Shawn Harris
Everett, WA
mail@shawnharris-NOSPAM-.net
If you reply, be sure and remove the '-NOSPAM-' >from my email address.


Naturalization for a Child #general

Sam Schleman <samara99@...>
 

Hello Genners:

My Grandfather came to the US in 1887, leaving behind a pregnant wife.
Approximately a year later, after having the baby, my Grandmother came to
the US, in 1888, with the child. My Grandfather became a naturalized
citizen in 1892.

As I understand it, when he became a citizen, so did my Grandmother,
automatically. Evidentally, so did the child. In the 1920 census he was
recorded as born in 1887, came to the US in 1888, and naturalized in 1892.

My question is whether there would be any naturalization record for the
child? I assume he would have been too young to sign and execute
naturalization papers, but would there be any record, any paperwork of his
becoming a citizen? If he applied for a passport as an adult, how would he
establish proof of citizenship?

Thanks as always for the help.

Sam Schleman
Malvern, PA
Samara99@comcast.net


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Naturalization for a Child #general

Sam Schleman <samara99@...>
 

Hello Genners:

My Grandfather came to the US in 1887, leaving behind a pregnant wife.
Approximately a year later, after having the baby, my Grandmother came to
the US, in 1888, with the child. My Grandfather became a naturalized
citizen in 1892.

As I understand it, when he became a citizen, so did my Grandmother,
automatically. Evidentally, so did the child. In the 1920 census he was
recorded as born in 1887, came to the US in 1888, and naturalized in 1892.

My question is whether there would be any naturalization record for the
child? I assume he would have been too young to sign and execute
naturalization papers, but would there be any record, any paperwork of his
becoming a citizen? If he applied for a passport as an adult, how would he
establish proof of citizenship?

Thanks as always for the help.

Sam Schleman
Malvern, PA
Samara99@comcast.net


Re: Canadian Immigration Question #general

joe <joe@...>
 

Hello Peter,
The St. Albans Lists are Canadian Border Crossing Records >from Canada to
the US. You can read more about them here in the Vermont section...

US Ports of Arrival and Their Available Passenger Lists (1820-1957)
http://www.genesearch.com/ports.html

They do not cover persons going >from the US into Canada.

Good luck with your search.

Regards,
Joe Beine
Denver, CO

"Peter S. Wyant" wrote:


Stan,

I'm not that familiar with the so-called "St. Alban's" lists ... would
someone know if they show persons travelling >from the U.S. to Canada as
well as the other direction (which is, I understand, the usual direction
of travel for the informatiion on these lists??

Peter Wyant
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Canadian Immigration Question #general

joe <joe@...>
 

Hello Peter,
The St. Albans Lists are Canadian Border Crossing Records >from Canada to
the US. You can read more about them here in the Vermont section...

US Ports of Arrival and Their Available Passenger Lists (1820-1957)
http://www.genesearch.com/ports.html

They do not cover persons going >from the US into Canada.

Good luck with your search.

Regards,
Joe Beine
Denver, CO

"Peter S. Wyant" wrote:


Stan,

I'm not that familiar with the so-called "St. Alban's" lists ... would
someone know if they show persons travelling >from the U.S. to Canada as
well as the other direction (which is, I understand, the usual direction
of travel for the informatiion on these lists??

Peter Wyant
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada


finding other researchers using the JGFF #general

Phyllis Kramer <phylliskramer1@...>
 

I've been at this about 10 years, and have noticed that researchers
sometimes make 2 errors when they use the JewishGen Family Finder
(JGFF).

first, they forget to use the *soundex* - so often when jews moved, the
spelling changed..that's why they invented Soundex, so that names that
sound alike will be searched - it's easy to use - the default search
on JGFF is Standard (ie: exact spelling) - but most of us need to click
on the Soundex option instead.

second, they forget that in "those days" marriages were frequently arranged
with jews >from neighboring towns....and often the groom went to live with
the brides parents. This means that the family you are searching for may
well be located *not in the town your grandfather came from*......but a few
miles away.

To overcome this, when I research a town, I first get the
latitude/longitude of the town (easy to do >from the Jewishgen Shtetl
Seeker). When another researcher claims his people are >from another town
within the same country, but a town i dont recognize,i go into
the shtetl seeker on jewishgen put in the coordinates of *my town* then
the other researchers town name and shtetl seeker will
automatically *compute the distance between the two towns*. Then if its
within 20 miles, I contact the other researcher.

Happy Hunting,

Phyllis Kramer (phylliskramer1@att.net)
searching (all GALICIA):
KRAMER,WISNER, BEIM >from Jasienica Rosielna
STECHER, TRACHMAN, FEIR >from Zmigrod
LINDNER, MAUER, BERLIN, EICHEL >from Rohatyn
SCHEINER, KANDEL, SCHIMMEL >from Strzyzow & Dubiecko


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen finding other researchers using the JGFF #general

Phyllis Kramer <phylliskramer1@...>
 

I've been at this about 10 years, and have noticed that researchers
sometimes make 2 errors when they use the JewishGen Family Finder
(JGFF).

first, they forget to use the *soundex* - so often when jews moved, the
spelling changed..that's why they invented Soundex, so that names that
sound alike will be searched - it's easy to use - the default search
on JGFF is Standard (ie: exact spelling) - but most of us need to click
on the Soundex option instead.

second, they forget that in "those days" marriages were frequently arranged
with jews >from neighboring towns....and often the groom went to live with
the brides parents. This means that the family you are searching for may
well be located *not in the town your grandfather came from*......but a few
miles away.

To overcome this, when I research a town, I first get the
latitude/longitude of the town (easy to do >from the Jewishgen Shtetl
Seeker). When another researcher claims his people are >from another town
within the same country, but a town i dont recognize,i go into
the shtetl seeker on jewishgen put in the coordinates of *my town* then
the other researchers town name and shtetl seeker will
automatically *compute the distance between the two towns*. Then if its
within 20 miles, I contact the other researcher.

Happy Hunting,

Phyllis Kramer (phylliskramer1@att.net)
searching (all GALICIA):
KRAMER,WISNER, BEIM >from Jasienica Rosielna
STECHER, TRACHMAN, FEIR >from Zmigrod
LINDNER, MAUER, BERLIN, EICHEL >from Rohatyn
SCHEINER, KANDEL, SCHIMMEL >from Strzyzow & Dubiecko


Nikolayev, Ukraine -- Forging, Deception, and Translation #general

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
 

For some weeks, several people have helped me translate some fascinating
1800s documents regarding my LIS family in Nikolayev, Ukraine (the
Nikolayev in Podolia, near Proskurov; not the Nikolayev near Odessa, on
the sea).

I have communicated with each person who has helped, but since the
documents tell a fascinating tale of deceit and trickery (to very good
end, I think!), perhaps other researchers will be interested in these
documents.

Together, this information may indicate (1)why it can be a challenge to
find family units in the 1800s and (2)the great value of archival
documents. I have (accurately I hope!) combined several different
translations of these documents:

http://www.kazez.com/~dan/oberman/lis.html

Dan

Daniel Kazez < dkazez@wittenberg.edu >
Springfield, Ohio USA
Ukraine: OBERMAN-HOBERMAN-GUBERMAN, LIS-LYS, SOBEL, STEIN, AKSMAN-AXMAN
Ukraine: Zaslav-Mikolayev-Krasilov-Medvedovka-Proskurov-Mogilev
http://www.kazez.com/~dan/oberman/


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Nikolayev, Ukraine -- Forging, Deception, and Translation #general

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
 

For some weeks, several people have helped me translate some fascinating
1800s documents regarding my LIS family in Nikolayev, Ukraine (the
Nikolayev in Podolia, near Proskurov; not the Nikolayev near Odessa, on
the sea).

I have communicated with each person who has helped, but since the
documents tell a fascinating tale of deceit and trickery (to very good
end, I think!), perhaps other researchers will be interested in these
documents.

Together, this information may indicate (1)why it can be a challenge to
find family units in the 1800s and (2)the great value of archival
documents. I have (accurately I hope!) combined several different
translations of these documents:

http://www.kazez.com/~dan/oberman/lis.html

Dan

Daniel Kazez < dkazez@wittenberg.edu >
Springfield, Ohio USA
Ukraine: OBERMAN-HOBERMAN-GUBERMAN, LIS-LYS, SOBEL, STEIN, AKSMAN-AXMAN
Ukraine: Zaslav-Mikolayev-Krasilov-Medvedovka-Proskurov-Mogilev
http://www.kazez.com/~dan/oberman/


Need Help from a Philadelphia Lawyer/Genealogist #general

Carol Raspler
 

Hello All:
Has anyone out there tried to track down name changes that might have been
listed in the old "Local Intelligencer" or "The Philadelphia Record" in
the 1920s?? And have you had any success?

In a copy of a document received >from Phila. City Hall's Protonotary (?)
Dept., I note evidence of two advertisments advising name changes in
1924. I'd love to be able to search the papers (or hope-against-hope a
database) for the period 1920-1925 and wonder if any of you out there have
done this and where?

Hope to meet you all at the Washington Conference! Thanks, and regards,
Carol Raspler,
Delray Beach, FL


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Need Help from a Philadelphia Lawyer/Genealogist #general

Carol Raspler
 

Hello All:
Has anyone out there tried to track down name changes that might have been
listed in the old "Local Intelligencer" or "The Philadelphia Record" in
the 1920s?? And have you had any success?

In a copy of a document received >from Phila. City Hall's Protonotary (?)
Dept., I note evidence of two advertisments advising name changes in
1924. I'd love to be able to search the papers (or hope-against-hope a
database) for the period 1920-1925 and wonder if any of you out there have
done this and where?

Hope to meet you all at the Washington Conference! Thanks, and regards,
Carol Raspler,
Delray Beach, FL


VM2548 Polish Birth Record #general

Connie Fisher Newhan
 

Hello,

I have posted a Polish birth record >from the village of Zarki at
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate. File VM 2548.
I am hoping for a translation as I think this may be the birth record of
my ggm Ruchla SPRINGER.

Please reply directly to me at ylca87@aol.com.

Thank you!

Best regards,
Connie Fisher Newhan
Yorba Linda, CA
Searching FISHER/FISCHER/FISZER (Warszawa & Bedzin, Poland), BARSKA/BARSKY
(Odessa), GOLDBERG (Russia?), FELDMAN (Kovno), SPRINGER, HAMBURGER
(Poland), ABRAMS, RABINOWITZ, LEVINE, LUPOLOR, FRIEDSAM,
COHN/COHEN/KOHN/KOHEN/KAHN.  NEWHAN/NEUHAN (Hesse Cassel, Baltimore),
GERSTEN (Obertyn, Galacia), BOHORODCZANER (Potok Zloty, Ukraine), ANTZEL
(Poland), BLUM, ROTH, ROCKOVITZ

MODERATOR NOTE: The direct links to this image is:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=2548


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen VM2548 Polish Birth Record #general

Connie Fisher Newhan
 

Hello,

I have posted a Polish birth record >from the village of Zarki at
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate. File VM 2548.
I am hoping for a translation as I think this may be the birth record of
my ggm Ruchla SPRINGER.

Please reply directly to me at ylca87@aol.com.

Thank you!

Best regards,
Connie Fisher Newhan
Yorba Linda, CA
Searching FISHER/FISCHER/FISZER (Warszawa & Bedzin, Poland), BARSKA/BARSKY
(Odessa), GOLDBERG (Russia?), FELDMAN (Kovno), SPRINGER, HAMBURGER
(Poland), ABRAMS, RABINOWITZ, LEVINE, LUPOLOR, FRIEDSAM,
COHN/COHEN/KOHN/KOHEN/KAHN.  NEWHAN/NEUHAN (Hesse Cassel, Baltimore),
GERSTEN (Obertyn, Galacia), BOHORODCZANER (Potok Zloty, Ukraine), ANTZEL
(Poland), BLUM, ROTH, ROCKOVITZ

MODERATOR NOTE: The direct links to this image is:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=2548


Greenwood Cemetery #general

Neil@...
 

Can anyone tell me where in NYC this cemetery is/was, address and phone
number?
If you live nearby maybe you can do a look up?
Many thanks,
Neil Rosenstein
Elizabeth, N.J.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Greenwood Cemetery #general

Neil@...
 

Can anyone tell me where in NYC this cemetery is/was, address and phone
number?
If you live nearby maybe you can do a look up?
Many thanks,
Neil Rosenstein
Elizabeth, N.J.


Re: Korsum, Baba Yar #general

NFatouros@...
 

On June 21, 2003, Susan H. MacIntire (sumac@shoreham.net) said her
grandfather was born in "Korsum." She also said that her mother had
mentioned "Baba Yar" as having been a "concentration camp."

Korsun, (not "Korsum") or, nowadays called "Korsun-Shevchenkovskij"
(probably to honor the famous Ukrainian poet Taras Shevchenko) is south of
Kiev and west of Cherkoss (Cherkassy). In the Kiev Oblast, Korsun
Shevchenkovskij had a population of 4,775 in 1926 and before WW II the
Jewish population is said to have been 2,449. A website for the papers of
the historian Leon Shapiro in the William Du Bois Library of the
University of Massachusetts spells the name of the town also
as "Hersun," "Korsoun," and "Hersein." Possibly Professor
Shapiro included in his archives more information about his native town
than I have been able to find.

At:

http://www.jewishgen.org/Ukraine/Kiev/korsun.htm

Ms. MacIntire can see Korsun's map coordinates and read down a list
submitted by Lois Sernoff of members buried in the Montefiore Cemetery in
Jenkintown, Philadelphia. Some of these names were gleaned >from other
sources.

More about Korsun can be found at:

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t040/t04090.html

Descriptions of Korsun's cemetery and little histories of the town can
be found by scrolling down the page at:

http://www.jewishgen.org/cemetery/e-europe/ukra-ko.html

One website found by the "google" search engine, has a passage which
describes a fairly recent Sukkoth celebration in Korsun.

Ms. MacIntire may want to ask her local library to get an interlibrary
loan for a book by David Glantz, entitled: "Battle for the Ukraine: The
Korsun-Shevchenkovskii Operation" Frank Cass Publishers, ISBN 0714652784.

One website I could not access mentions that there is a Jewish
Department in the State Library in Korsun.

Miriam Weiner's "Jewish Roots in Moldova and Ukraine" indicates that a
number of records about the Jews of Kiev and of the Kievan oblast survive
and can be found in the archives of Kiev. Some records of Korsun can be
found in the Cherkassy archives.

As for Babi Yar, this place of horrors, located on Kiev's outskirts,
was not a "concentration camp" as this expression is commonly understood,
although many in concentration camps did die in such places while working
or after being sent to some other camp to work or be exterminated. Babi
Yar was a "killing field," or more accurately, a killing ravine, although
labor was performed there in order to accommondate the Nazi plan for mass
extermination.

On September 29, 1941, an order was issued by the German occupiers who
had taken over Kiev only few days before. During this time, the heart of
Kiev was demolished through bombing. All of Kiev's Jews were directed to
assemble at a certain street corner near the Jewish cemetery. They were
told to bring their money and other valuables, warm clothing, and personal
documents.

The following day, most Jews obeyed, including the infants, children,
sick and aged, but when they reached Babi Yar, they were divested of
whatever they had been carrying, ordered to strip, and were bludgeoned to
death or downed by machine guns. The shootings could be heard throughout
in Kurenevka a neighborhood of Kiev which was located just above Babi
Yar. The first day of the shootings, Anatoly Suznetsov writes in his
documentary novel"Babi Yar," it was rumored in Kiev that 35,000 had been
slaughtered. (A very few survived by wriggling out >from the heaps of sand
and earth covered corpses, clambering and crawling away.) Although there
were some Jews who had managed to escape the first round-up, there were
more mass killings of Jews during the following few days. It is estimated
that as many as fifty thousand Jews were killed at Babi Yar. One
estimate,found at:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/famousSearch.cgi?
mode=cemetery&FScemeteryid=639843

says that Germany army records record the number of slain Jews as 33,771.

However, throughout the Nazi occupation of Kiev, many more people were
murdered at Babi Yar. The patients >from the psychiatric hospital in
Kurnevka were assmebled ina small church then taken out to be gassed in
trucks; their bodies dumped into the pits. For some reason, all those who
kept pigeons were slain, regardless of whether they'd seen an order about
pigeon-keeping! Some Kievans were offered the opportunity to work for the
Reich in Germany, and were transported there by trains. Eventually,
Gypsies, captured partisans, defeated Russian solders, the mentally
disabled, and many, many Ukrainians were also slain and buried at Babi Yar.

Throughout most of the German's occupation of Kiev, >from September 1941
to December, 1943, about hundreds of thousands of Kievans were killed. No
one knows for certain how many, but estimates range >from 100,000 to
200,000. Not all lost their lives at the ravine. Some were shot or hung
in the city's streets or plazas and their bodies later collected and
dumped. Throughout the occupation, the Germans were assisted in their
endeavors by the Ukrainian police.

Because at the time, the Germans had not yet perfected their system of
mass murder, as they soon did at places like Auschwitz, at Kiev they kept
improvising about their methods about killings, burials, and, when the
Russian victory seemed inevitable, about concealing the traces of their
crimes. These methods entailed much hard labor by prisoners of all sorts, T
They had to dig about the walls of the ravine and create layers of
earth sand or clay in order to accommodate more and more bodies and,
later, to open the pits and stack the exhumed corpses in such a way as to
make their cremation most efficient and complete. Before cremation
workers were made to rummage through the remains and extract gold
concealed in teeth, and in the clothing that had not been shed
before the slaughter of the former wearers. Of course, the workers
themselves were then killed,that is, those workers who had not already
lost their lives through their often dangerous labors or through the
murderous whims of their supervisors. It may be that the Germans and
their slave laborers succeeded so well in obliterating evidence of the
slaughters that occured at Babi Yar that nothing can be found to prove the
killings.

A "google" search will turn up information about Babi Yar monuments
and proposals for a Jewish community center to be erected there.

In his account, Kuznetsov mentions that the victims' passports
(interior travelling permits or "propiska"), were tossed into a heap and
burned. So Ms. MacIntire's mother is partly right in saying that no
records can be found, at least of those who were killed at Babi Yar.

Naomi Fatouros (nee FELDMAN)
Bloomington, Indiana
NFatouros@aol.com
Researching: BELKOWSKY and BIELKOWSKY, Odessa and Berdichev;ROTHSTEIN,
Kremenchug; FELDMAN, Pinsk; SCHUTZ, RETTIG, WAHL, Shcherets; LEVY,
Mulhouse; SAS or
SASS,Podwolochisk; RAPOPORT, Tarnopol, Korostyshev; BEHAM, Salok and
Kharkov;
WOLPIANSKY, Ostryna.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Korsum, Baba Yar #general

NFatouros@...
 

On June 21, 2003, Susan H. MacIntire (sumac@shoreham.net) said her
grandfather was born in "Korsum." She also said that her mother had
mentioned "Baba Yar" as having been a "concentration camp."

Korsun, (not "Korsum") or, nowadays called "Korsun-Shevchenkovskij"
(probably to honor the famous Ukrainian poet Taras Shevchenko) is south of
Kiev and west of Cherkoss (Cherkassy). In the Kiev Oblast, Korsun
Shevchenkovskij had a population of 4,775 in 1926 and before WW II the
Jewish population is said to have been 2,449. A website for the papers of
the historian Leon Shapiro in the William Du Bois Library of the
University of Massachusetts spells the name of the town also
as "Hersun," "Korsoun," and "Hersein." Possibly Professor
Shapiro included in his archives more information about his native town
than I have been able to find.

At:

http://www.jewishgen.org/Ukraine/Kiev/korsun.htm

Ms. MacIntire can see Korsun's map coordinates and read down a list
submitted by Lois Sernoff of members buried in the Montefiore Cemetery in
Jenkintown, Philadelphia. Some of these names were gleaned >from other
sources.

More about Korsun can be found at:

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t040/t04090.html

Descriptions of Korsun's cemetery and little histories of the town can
be found by scrolling down the page at:

http://www.jewishgen.org/cemetery/e-europe/ukra-ko.html

One website found by the "google" search engine, has a passage which
describes a fairly recent Sukkoth celebration in Korsun.

Ms. MacIntire may want to ask her local library to get an interlibrary
loan for a book by David Glantz, entitled: "Battle for the Ukraine: The
Korsun-Shevchenkovskii Operation" Frank Cass Publishers, ISBN 0714652784.

One website I could not access mentions that there is a Jewish
Department in the State Library in Korsun.

Miriam Weiner's "Jewish Roots in Moldova and Ukraine" indicates that a
number of records about the Jews of Kiev and of the Kievan oblast survive
and can be found in the archives of Kiev. Some records of Korsun can be
found in the Cherkassy archives.

As for Babi Yar, this place of horrors, located on Kiev's outskirts,
was not a "concentration camp" as this expression is commonly understood,
although many in concentration camps did die in such places while working
or after being sent to some other camp to work or be exterminated. Babi
Yar was a "killing field," or more accurately, a killing ravine, although
labor was performed there in order to accommondate the Nazi plan for mass
extermination.

On September 29, 1941, an order was issued by the German occupiers who
had taken over Kiev only few days before. During this time, the heart of
Kiev was demolished through bombing. All of Kiev's Jews were directed to
assemble at a certain street corner near the Jewish cemetery. They were
told to bring their money and other valuables, warm clothing, and personal
documents.

The following day, most Jews obeyed, including the infants, children,
sick and aged, but when they reached Babi Yar, they were divested of
whatever they had been carrying, ordered to strip, and were bludgeoned to
death or downed by machine guns. The shootings could be heard throughout
in Kurenevka a neighborhood of Kiev which was located just above Babi
Yar. The first day of the shootings, Anatoly Suznetsov writes in his
documentary novel"Babi Yar," it was rumored in Kiev that 35,000 had been
slaughtered. (A very few survived by wriggling out >from the heaps of sand
and earth covered corpses, clambering and crawling away.) Although there
were some Jews who had managed to escape the first round-up, there were
more mass killings of Jews during the following few days. It is estimated
that as many as fifty thousand Jews were killed at Babi Yar. One
estimate,found at:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/famousSearch.cgi?
mode=cemetery&FScemeteryid=639843

says that Germany army records record the number of slain Jews as 33,771.

However, throughout the Nazi occupation of Kiev, many more people were
murdered at Babi Yar. The patients >from the psychiatric hospital in
Kurnevka were assmebled ina small church then taken out to be gassed in
trucks; their bodies dumped into the pits. For some reason, all those who
kept pigeons were slain, regardless of whether they'd seen an order about
pigeon-keeping! Some Kievans were offered the opportunity to work for the
Reich in Germany, and were transported there by trains. Eventually,
Gypsies, captured partisans, defeated Russian solders, the mentally
disabled, and many, many Ukrainians were also slain and buried at Babi Yar.

Throughout most of the German's occupation of Kiev, >from September 1941
to December, 1943, about hundreds of thousands of Kievans were killed. No
one knows for certain how many, but estimates range >from 100,000 to
200,000. Not all lost their lives at the ravine. Some were shot or hung
in the city's streets or plazas and their bodies later collected and
dumped. Throughout the occupation, the Germans were assisted in their
endeavors by the Ukrainian police.

Because at the time, the Germans had not yet perfected their system of
mass murder, as they soon did at places like Auschwitz, at Kiev they kept
improvising about their methods about killings, burials, and, when the
Russian victory seemed inevitable, about concealing the traces of their
crimes. These methods entailed much hard labor by prisoners of all sorts, T
They had to dig about the walls of the ravine and create layers of
earth sand or clay in order to accommodate more and more bodies and,
later, to open the pits and stack the exhumed corpses in such a way as to
make their cremation most efficient and complete. Before cremation
workers were made to rummage through the remains and extract gold
concealed in teeth, and in the clothing that had not been shed
before the slaughter of the former wearers. Of course, the workers
themselves were then killed,that is, those workers who had not already
lost their lives through their often dangerous labors or through the
murderous whims of their supervisors. It may be that the Germans and
their slave laborers succeeded so well in obliterating evidence of the
slaughters that occured at Babi Yar that nothing can be found to prove the
killings.

A "google" search will turn up information about Babi Yar monuments
and proposals for a Jewish community center to be erected there.

In his account, Kuznetsov mentions that the victims' passports
(interior travelling permits or "propiska"), were tossed into a heap and
burned. So Ms. MacIntire's mother is partly right in saying that no
records can be found, at least of those who were killed at Babi Yar.

Naomi Fatouros (nee FELDMAN)
Bloomington, Indiana
NFatouros@aol.com
Researching: BELKOWSKY and BIELKOWSKY, Odessa and Berdichev;ROTHSTEIN,
Kremenchug; FELDMAN, Pinsk; SCHUTZ, RETTIG, WAHL, Shcherets; LEVY,
Mulhouse; SAS or
SASS,Podwolochisk; RAPOPORT, Tarnopol, Korostyshev; BEHAM, Salok and
Kharkov;
WOLPIANSKY, Ostryna.