Varda Epstein asked about DNA Testing for Free?
<yknow@...> on 24 Jul 2003
<<< Dr. Vivien Moses was giving free DNA testing to
males of Ashkenazi background>>> >
and

Kevin Brook <kbrook@...> on Sat, 26 Jul 2003
replied correctly that Individualized DNA results are not free
........ Dr. Vivian Moses is interested primarily in Y DNA. His colleagues
Mark Thomas, David Goldstein, and Neil Bradman are the ones studying
mtDNA.


Vivian Moses is primarily interested in linking DNA patterns with variants
of Yiddish to map the spread of Yiddish dialects in Europe. The Unit at
University College Hospital is called the Centre for Genetic Anthropology.
This unit does not do any individual testing, nor does it keep individual
DNA analyses. All of these experts spoke on the topic at the London 2001
IAJGS Conference and summaries of their talks are in the syllabus. Last week
in washington at the 2003 conference Bennet Greenspan of Family Tree DNA
gave a very lucid exposition of the whole subject of Y and M DNA and its
relevance to genealogy. However, much of the published ( journal) material
is already outdated and the websites and links given on Kevin's Khazaria
pages are by far the best way of keeping up to date on this fast evolving
subject..

Saul Issroff ( London)

Varda Epstein asked about DNA Testing for Free?
<yknow@...> on 24 Jul 2003
<<< Dr. Vivien Moses was giving free DNA testing to
males of Ashkenazi background>>> >
and

Kevin Brook <kbrook@...> on Sat, 26 Jul 2003
replied correctly that Individualized DNA results are not free
........ Dr. Vivian Moses is interested primarily in Y DNA. His colleagues
Mark Thomas, David Goldstein, and Neil Bradman are the ones studying
mtDNA.


Vivian Moses is primarily interested in linking DNA patterns with variants
of Yiddish to map the spread of Yiddish dialects in Europe. The Unit at
University College Hospital is called the Centre for Genetic Anthropology.
This unit does not do any individual testing, nor does it keep individual
DNA analyses. All of these experts spoke on the topic at the London 2001
IAJGS Conference and summaries of their talks are in the syllabus. Last week
in washington at the 2003 conference Bennet Greenspan of Family Tree DNA
gave a very lucid exposition of the whole subject of Y and M DNA and its
relevance to genealogy. However, much of the published ( journal) material
is already outdated and the websites and links given on Kevin's Khazaria
pages are by far the best way of keeping up to date on this fast evolving
subject..

Saul Issroff ( London)

I have recently been told that my family on my mothers side was
Jewish. The name was FISHER. The lived in Saskatewan and moved to
Vancouver, BC CAnada. The family was supposedly of German heritage.
How would a person find more out about this. I have tried many avenues
including going to salt lake city ot the morman geaneology center, all
to no avail.
Jan Mensink

I have recently been told that my family on my mothers side was
Jewish. The name was FISHER. The lived in Saskatewan and moved to
Vancouver, BC CAnada. The family was supposedly of German heritage.
How would a person find more out about this. I have tried many avenues
including going to salt lake city ot the morman geaneology center, all
to no avail.
Jan Mensink

Dear Genners:

We are very pleased and proud to announce our new website is up and running:
http://www.jgs-miami.org/

Please visit the site and explore all the links we have created....not
only for Florida but for other research sites.

Thank you.
Joan

Joan Parker
President JGS-GM, Inc.
Miami, FL

Searching: GOLDBERG and GOODSTEIN-Plock, Poland/Russia and Brooklyn, NY;
PINKUS and WINOGRAD-Brest, Litovsk maybe Odessa, Ukraine, Bronx and
Brooklyn, NY;
GELFAND, YEHUDIS, KATZ-Minsk, Bronx, NY, Miami and Miami Beach, FL.

Dear Genners:

We are very pleased and proud to announce our new website is up and running:
http://www.jgs-miami.org/

Please visit the site and explore all the links we have created....not
only for Florida but for other research sites.

Thank you.
Joan

Joan Parker
President JGS-GM, Inc.
Miami, FL

Searching: GOLDBERG and GOODSTEIN-Plock, Poland/Russia and Brooklyn, NY;
PINKUS and WINOGRAD-Brest, Litovsk maybe Odessa, Ukraine, Bronx and
Brooklyn, NY;
GELFAND, YEHUDIS, KATZ-Minsk, Bronx, NY, Miami and Miami Beach, FL.

Dear group,
In response to my posting about microfilm for immigration >from Canada to
Rochester, NY, someone asked me what years were covered. When I checked
the answer, I noted the details for the two other films I'd
mentioned. These three films are for immigration >from Canada to New York
through the several small towns on the shared Canada-New York border.

At least for M1480, these are the manifests themselves in index-card form,
and not merely indexes.

M1480
Manifests of alien arrivals at Buffalo, Lewiston, Niagara Falls, and
Rochester, New York, 1902 - 1954.

M1481
Alphabetical Card Manifests of Alien Arrivals at Alexandria Bay, Cape
Vincent, Champlain, Clayton, Fort Covington, Moers, Rouses Point, Thousand
Island Bridge and Trout River, New York, July 1929 - April 1956.

M1482
Soundex Card Manifests of Alien and Citizen Arrivals at Hogansburg, Malone,
Morristown, Nyando, Ogdensburg, Rooseveltown and Waddington, New York, July
1929 - April 1956.

You'll have to do your own research to learn which archives or resources
have these films. They can also be purchased directly >from NARA - check
< www.nara.gov > for details.

Regards,
Hilary Henkin
Mogilev - BERLIN; BELIISKI; HENKIN - GENKIN; MESCENOKOV; POZ - POZE
Vitebsk: PEVZNER
Ekaterinoslav - KATZ; LAPIDUS; LAVROTIN - LAVRUTIN; PESACHINSKY;
SHIMERNITSKY;
STEINHART Roumania: DOLLINGER; DONNENFIELD; RINCOVER - HARINCOVER;
WISENTHAL Harbin, China: FELDMAN; SREBERK - SCHRIEBER; LITEBSK; SCHON

Dear group,
In response to my posting about microfilm for immigration >from Canada to
Rochester, NY, someone asked me what years were covered. When I checked
the answer, I noted the details for the two other films I'd
mentioned. These three films are for immigration >from Canada to New York
through the several small towns on the shared Canada-New York border.

At least for M1480, these are the manifests themselves in index-card form,
and not merely indexes.

M1480
Manifests of alien arrivals at Buffalo, Lewiston, Niagara Falls, and
Rochester, New York, 1902 - 1954.

M1481
Alphabetical Card Manifests of Alien Arrivals at Alexandria Bay, Cape
Vincent, Champlain, Clayton, Fort Covington, Moers, Rouses Point, Thousand
Island Bridge and Trout River, New York, July 1929 - April 1956.

M1482
Soundex Card Manifests of Alien and Citizen Arrivals at Hogansburg, Malone,
Morristown, Nyando, Ogdensburg, Rooseveltown and Waddington, New York, July
1929 - April 1956.

You'll have to do your own research to learn which archives or resources
have these films. They can also be purchased directly >from NARA - check
< www.nara.gov > for details.

Regards,
Hilary Henkin
Mogilev - BERLIN; BELIISKI; HENKIN - GENKIN; MESCENOKOV; POZ - POZE
Vitebsk: PEVZNER
Ekaterinoslav - KATZ; LAPIDUS; LAVROTIN - LAVRUTIN; PESACHINSKY;
SHIMERNITSKY;
STEINHART Roumania: DOLLINGER; DONNENFIELD; RINCOVER - HARINCOVER;
WISENTHAL Harbin, China: FELDMAN; SREBERK - SCHRIEBER; LITEBSK; SCHON

What we need are volunteers to come forward to be coordinators for their
shtetl or district, collect surnames of those who are researching >from that
area and get those people to divide the cost of getting the info. I have
seen the reports of what can be available and it is quite good-an entire
family tree with relationships and dates. Oleg Persakevich told us at the
Grodno SIG meeting that it is most economical to search a group of names

from one area-since they are checking the records anyway.

Nancy is the coordinator for all of Belarus but she needs help-there are 4
major districts: Grodno, Minsk, Mogilev, and Vitebsk. We need a
coordinator for each and then shtetl leaders under them. By working
together we can accomplish a lot.
Joanne Saltman
Belchertown, MA
researching SALT(Z)MAN, EPSTEIN, MISHKIN, ZLOTNIK >from Slonim, Belarus
MINTZ, LEVIN, LEVINE, >from Dieveniskes, Lithuania
GORENSTEIN >from Kremenets, Ukraine
SETRON >from Kiev and Odessa, Ukraine

What we need are volunteers to come forward to be coordinators for their
shtetl or district, collect surnames of those who are researching >from that
area and get those people to divide the cost of getting the info. I have
seen the reports of what can be available and it is quite good-an entire
family tree with relationships and dates. Oleg Persakevich told us at the
Grodno SIG meeting that it is most economical to search a group of names

from one area-since they are checking the records anyway.

Nancy is the coordinator for all of Belarus but she needs help-there are 4
major districts: Grodno, Minsk, Mogilev, and Vitebsk. We need a
coordinator for each and then shtetl leaders under them. By working
together we can accomplish a lot.
Joanne Saltman
Belchertown, MA
researching SALT(Z)MAN, EPSTEIN, MISHKIN, ZLOTNIK >from Slonim, Belarus
MINTZ, LEVIN, LEVINE, >from Dieveniskes, Lithuania
GORENSTEIN >from Kremenets, Ukraine
SETRON >from Kiev and Odessa, Ukraine

August 2, 2003
Saturday, PM

Hi List,

I have been researching my SMITH family from
Russia,Boston,Iowa,Chicago now for four years.
With the latest information that I obtained

from the 1930 census I am just about at the

end of my search until the 1940 census is released.

I am seeking any information about any family
that have a Jewish Smith in it, that live
presently in the USA. that may have any of the people below with
the same name.


Researching: Charles and Rachel (FROMFERT) SMITH
Michael and Anna (CHYENKUS) SMITH
Harry and Marie ( ?) SMITH
Sally SMITH
Florence, Bernetta,Bessie and May (Mae) SMITH
Mary Ann SMITH

Michael (SMITH)Kassner
Valparaiso, Indiana
mikehanna@...

August 2, 2003
Saturday, PM

Hi List,

I have been researching my SMITH family from
Russia,Boston,Iowa,Chicago now for four years.
With the latest information that I obtained

from the 1930 census I am just about at the

end of my search until the 1940 census is released.

I am seeking any information about any family
that have a Jewish Smith in it, that live
presently in the USA. that may have any of the people below with
the same name.


Researching: Charles and Rachel (FROMFERT) SMITH
Michael and Anna (CHYENKUS) SMITH
Harry and Marie ( ?) SMITH
Sally SMITH
Florence, Bernetta,Bessie and May (Mae) SMITH
Mary Ann SMITH

Michael (SMITH)Kassner
Valparaiso, Indiana
mikehanna@...

Here's a useful website:

http://www.ipums.umn.edu/usa/voliii/tQuestions.html

My query:

What data is given on a California Birth Cert in 1874?

Thanks,

Miriam Margolyes
London

searching: SANDMAN, SCHNAPPER, NATHAN (German, Prussian)

Here's a useful website:

http://www.ipums.umn.edu/usa/voliii/tQuestions.html

My query:

What data is given on a California Birth Cert in 1874?

Thanks,

Miriam Margolyes
London

searching: SANDMAN, SCHNAPPER, NATHAN (German, Prussian)

In a message dated 8/1/2003 11:23:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
vogelko@... ( Jane Vogel-Kohai) very kindly checked an
authoritative dictionary of Hebrew contractions and abbreviations, "Otzar
Roshei Teivot" to shed light on the origin of SEGAL (S-G-L) which is
popularly believed to be the title for a Levite and hence is a family name
borne almost exclusively by Levites.

The "Otzar Roshei Teivot" lists the following:
Segula La"Adonai - Virtue to God
==this acronym is new for me. However, it does not seem to have any
connection to Levites

Sgan L'Kehuna - assistant to priesthood
Sgan L'Kohen - assistant to Cohen (priests).
==this origin (in its two varieties) is frequently accepted. The meaning
of Segan is, however, "deputy, vice, or surrogate" as my dictionary has
it, and as is generally agreed. The Kohen Gadol (High priest) of the
Temple in Jerusalem had a deputy who also had to be a Kohen, who performed
the High Priest's duties when the High Priest could not officiate.
However, only a Kohen could perform a Kohen's role, and he could have no
deputies or surrogates who were not Kohanim, not even Levites.

The Levites were teachers. They also were singers and musicians in the
Holy Temple, and assisted the Kohanim in certain duties, schlepping,
cleaning--but no sacraments and they were neither surrogates nor deputies
to the Kohanim.

Jane continues with:
"I think these definitions describe what the Levites were, and makes more
sense than Sgan L'Levi."
== [Sgan L'Levi." means Deputy to the Levite, M.B.]
==The Levites may correctly be considered assistants, but that is not the
meaning of the word Segan, which is surrogate etc. Because of the
punctillious precision that Jewish law demanded of the Kohanim in the
Temple, and in describing their privileges and duties, the likelihood that
a Levite would ever be referred to as a Kohen's deputy is essentially zero.

Jane adds:
"Sgan Leviah is also listed but I don't know if the meaning is Ass't Levi
(in some kind of Aramaic form) or if the meaning is ass't accompanier,
which also would fit a Levite.
==This sense of "deputy Levite" is the one that is popularly associated
with SEGAL and the Levites..Here the problem is that Levites came in only
one rank: either you were or you weren't a Levite. No surrogates and no
deputies. [the sense "accompanier" for "leviah" does not in Hebrew refer
to a musician-acompanist but to someone who accompanies others in a march
or parade, such as a wedding procession, or, R"L, a funeral procession]

The essential problem is that there is no mention of the role of Sgan Levi
"deputy" Levite or of Sgan Kohen (deputy priest), during the many
centuries during which the Temple in Jerusalem was the focus of Jewish
ritual, nor in almost 1000 years after the destruction of the Temple in 70
CE and the total cessation of Kohanic Temple rites and duties. In that
millenium, the rabbis took great care in noting in the Talmud and in
commentaries, every tiny detail of the Temple worship and procedure, so
that the Kohanim could properly perform their duties once the Temple was
restored (which many believed would be by an instantaneous act of God). In
all those many volumes, in all those thousand years, there is no mention
anywhere of such a person as a deputy to the Priesthood or a surrogate to
the office of Levite.

And then suddenly, in the Rhineland of Germany, almost as suddenly and as
miraculously as the hoped-for restoration of the Temple, we learn that
some Levites were deputies to either the Kohanim, or to other Levites--and
there is nothing to back up this sudden claim or sudden title. This leads
me to suspect that the attribution of SEGAL to Levitic duries in the past
is probably an urban (or a rural) legend.

I have played with the idea that "Segel Leviah" ("of the Order of the
Levites") might be a better explanation for the term SEGAL when applied to
Levites, but I am apparently the only one who thinks Segel Leviah would be
an appropriate origin--and even I am very, very, very far >from being
convinced of this origin.

I think we have to look elsewhere to understand why this term arose in
distant Germany, a thousand years after both Levites and Kohanim lost
their ritual and sacramental duties. Suggestions anyone?

Michael Bernet (a hereditary Levite but no one's surrogate), New York

In a message dated 8/1/2003 11:23:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
vogelko@... ( Jane Vogel-Kohai) very kindly checked an
authoritative dictionary of Hebrew contractions and abbreviations, "Otzar
Roshei Teivot" to shed light on the origin of SEGAL (S-G-L) which is
popularly believed to be the title for a Levite and hence is a family name
borne almost exclusively by Levites.

The "Otzar Roshei Teivot" lists the following:
Segula La"Adonai - Virtue to God
==this acronym is new for me. However, it does not seem to have any
connection to Levites

Sgan L'Kehuna - assistant to priesthood
Sgan L'Kohen - assistant to Cohen (priests).
==this origin (in its two varieties) is frequently accepted. The meaning
of Segan is, however, "deputy, vice, or surrogate" as my dictionary has
it, and as is generally agreed. The Kohen Gadol (High priest) of the
Temple in Jerusalem had a deputy who also had to be a Kohen, who performed
the High Priest's duties when the High Priest could not officiate.
However, only a Kohen could perform a Kohen's role, and he could have no
deputies or surrogates who were not Kohanim, not even Levites.

The Levites were teachers. They also were singers and musicians in the
Holy Temple, and assisted the Kohanim in certain duties, schlepping,
cleaning--but no sacraments and they were neither surrogates nor deputies
to the Kohanim.

Jane continues with:
"I think these definitions describe what the Levites were, and makes more
sense than Sgan L'Levi."
== [Sgan L'Levi." means Deputy to the Levite, M.B.]
==The Levites may correctly be considered assistants, but that is not the
meaning of the word Segan, which is surrogate etc. Because of the
punctillious precision that Jewish law demanded of the Kohanim in the
Temple, and in describing their privileges and duties, the likelihood that
a Levite would ever be referred to as a Kohen's deputy is essentially zero.

Jane adds:
"Sgan Leviah is also listed but I don't know if the meaning is Ass't Levi
(in some kind of Aramaic form) or if the meaning is ass't accompanier,
which also would fit a Levite.
==This sense of "deputy Levite" is the one that is popularly associated
with SEGAL and the Levites..Here the problem is that Levites came in only
one rank: either you were or you weren't a Levite. No surrogates and no
deputies. [the sense "accompanier" for "leviah" does not in Hebrew refer
to a musician-acompanist but to someone who accompanies others in a march
or parade, such as a wedding procession, or, R"L, a funeral procession]

The essential problem is that there is no mention of the role of Sgan Levi
"deputy" Levite or of Sgan Kohen (deputy priest), during the many
centuries during which the Temple in Jerusalem was the focus of Jewish
ritual, nor in almost 1000 years after the destruction of the Temple in 70
CE and the total cessation of Kohanic Temple rites and duties. In that
millenium, the rabbis took great care in noting in the Talmud and in
commentaries, every tiny detail of the Temple worship and procedure, so
that the Kohanim could properly perform their duties once the Temple was
restored (which many believed would be by an instantaneous act of God). In
all those many volumes, in all those thousand years, there is no mention
anywhere of such a person as a deputy to the Priesthood or a surrogate to
the office of Levite.

And then suddenly, in the Rhineland of Germany, almost as suddenly and as
miraculously as the hoped-for restoration of the Temple, we learn that
some Levites were deputies to either the Kohanim, or to other Levites--and
there is nothing to back up this sudden claim or sudden title. This leads
me to suspect that the attribution of SEGAL to Levitic duries in the past
is probably an urban (or a rural) legend.

I have played with the idea that "Segel Leviah" ("of the Order of the
Levites") might be a better explanation for the term SEGAL when applied to
Levites, but I am apparently the only one who thinks Segel Leviah would be
an appropriate origin--and even I am very, very, very far >from being
convinced of this origin.

I think we have to look elsewhere to understand why this term arose in
distant Germany, a thousand years after both Levites and Kohanim lost
their ritual and sacramental duties. Suggestions anyone?

Michael Bernet (a hereditary Levite but no one's surrogate), New York

In a message dated 8/2/2003 5:22:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
chaikin@... in explaining why some Levite families are
surnamed SEGAL, writes:

<< The fact is that the Kohanim (priests) were >from the Levis, and we can
see in the book of Yeheskel, chapter 44, that the Levies sons of Zadok,
were the only priests who were aloud to enter the most holy place. >>

==This is an unfortunate misreading of the text. Zadok was one of the
earliest High Priests, >from the time of King David. For some reason this
line was termed "HaKohanim HaLevi'im" the Kohanim of the tribe of Levi
(which all Kohanim were in fact, descendants of [a great grandson of?]
Levi, the eponymous founder of the tribe). That is, they were a select
line in the select clan of Kohanim, who were all members of the tribe of
Levi.

==In the last period before the destruction of Jerusalem, the Zadokites,
their descendants and their political supporters, were known by the Greeks
(and in modern English) as the Sadducees.

==The Zadokites or Saducees were powerful politically, and claimed many
exclusive privileges--which made them the sole family >from which the
politically and economically powerful High Priests could be chosen.

==The reference cited >from Ezekiel 44 meant nothing more than that the
Zadok line of the Kohanim claimed the right to be the only ones to be
allowed entry into the Holy of Holies and hence to the exclusive claim to
the High Priesthood. SEGAL has no connection with Zadok or with Kohanim,
only with Levites who were not Kohanim..

==The question of how the surname SEGAL came to be associated with
Levites, remains unsolved.

Michael Bernet, New York

In a message dated 8/2/2003 5:22:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
chaikin@... in explaining why some Levite families are
surnamed SEGAL, writes:

<< The fact is that the Kohanim (priests) were >from the Levis, and we can
see in the book of Yeheskel, chapter 44, that the Levies sons of Zadok,
were the only priests who were aloud to enter the most holy place. >>

==This is an unfortunate misreading of the text. Zadok was one of the
earliest High Priests, >from the time of King David. For some reason this
line was termed "HaKohanim HaLevi'im" the Kohanim of the tribe of Levi
(which all Kohanim were in fact, descendants of [a great grandson of?]
Levi, the eponymous founder of the tribe). That is, they were a select
line in the select clan of Kohanim, who were all members of the tribe of
Levi.

==In the last period before the destruction of Jerusalem, the Zadokites,
their descendants and their political supporters, were known by the Greeks
(and in modern English) as the Sadducees.

==The Zadokites or Saducees were powerful politically, and claimed many
exclusive privileges--which made them the sole family >from which the
politically and economically powerful High Priests could be chosen.

==The reference cited >from Ezekiel 44 meant nothing more than that the
Zadok line of the Kohanim claimed the right to be the only ones to be
allowed entry into the Holy of Holies and hence to the exclusive claim to
the High Priesthood. SEGAL has no connection with Zadok or with Kohanim,
only with Levites who were not Kohanim..

==The question of how the surname SEGAL came to be associated with
Levites, remains unsolved.

Michael Bernet, New York

IF anyone has a copy of "The Jewish Community of Indianapolis," by
Judith Endelman, Indiana University Press, could they please contact me
privately?

Thanks >from New Zealand

Annemarie Jutel
Dunedin, NZ

IF anyone has a copy of "The Jewish Community of Indianapolis," by
Judith Endelman, Indiana University Press, could they please contact me
privately?

Thanks >from New Zealand

Annemarie Jutel
Dunedin, NZ