Date   

Was Ira Jewish? #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/2/2003 9:55:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sallybru@... very gracious acknowledged an unfortunate
misunderstanding, in a previous message

<< Well, I learned something today. I have extracted many Polish and
Lithuanian records for different towns and had never seen the name Ira.
I didn't know it was a Yiddish name or a Hebrew name as various people
have pointed out-or that it was in the Bible.

She continues with:
However, it was certainly not a common Hebrew/Yiddish name in the areas
I am familiar with, and I would stick by the point of my previous
posting:
it was probably an 'American' version of some more common
Hebrew/Yiddish name made up for someone who never was in the US. >>

No, Ira has never been as popular a name among Jews as Isaac or Jacob.
Anyone not fully aware of the genealogy and history of that area can
certainly be excused for not knowing that it was recorded in the areas of
greater Russia (incl Poland and Podolia) as early at 1765.

Sally's last assumption that Ira "was probably an 'American' version"
is difficult to support. True, there was Ira Gershwin in America, but he
was Jewish. There have been some 19th century non-Jews named Ira who were
born in the USA, notably Ira Remsen, co-inventor of saccharine, and Ira
Frederick Aldridge, a Black actor famous for tragic roles--but he lived
mostly in Europe (and, coincidence? died in Lodz).

Ira became an "American" name only after it became popular with the
influx of Jewish immigrants >from Eastern Europe.

The Random House Dictionary lists Ira as "a male given name: >from a
Hebrew word meaning 'watchful'. That would be spelled with an initial
`ayin, not with the initial aleph as is the East European Jewish name
derived >from Uri. (Beider also gives an Ira with the `ayin initial.)

To claim that a Jew in Eastern Europe who was called Ira, and never came
to the USA, actually had a different name in the old country and that an
American relative simply "Americanized" his name to Ira, would be akin to
claiming that Michael could not be a Jew and is really an Irishman living
in Dublin, or that Sally's name must have been imposed on her
retroactively by a relative living in Salonika.

Ira was a Jewish name in Europe in the 18th and 19th century. There can
be no doubt about that. There is no need or reason to suppose it was
really an American name imposed retroactively on his ancestor by some
Jewish immigrant in the USA who couldn't think of a better name.

Michael Bernet, New York


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Was Ira Jewish? #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/2/2003 9:55:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sallybru@... very gracious acknowledged an unfortunate
misunderstanding, in a previous message

<< Well, I learned something today. I have extracted many Polish and
Lithuanian records for different towns and had never seen the name Ira.
I didn't know it was a Yiddish name or a Hebrew name as various people
have pointed out-or that it was in the Bible.

She continues with:
However, it was certainly not a common Hebrew/Yiddish name in the areas
I am familiar with, and I would stick by the point of my previous
posting:
it was probably an 'American' version of some more common
Hebrew/Yiddish name made up for someone who never was in the US. >>

No, Ira has never been as popular a name among Jews as Isaac or Jacob.
Anyone not fully aware of the genealogy and history of that area can
certainly be excused for not knowing that it was recorded in the areas of
greater Russia (incl Poland and Podolia) as early at 1765.

Sally's last assumption that Ira "was probably an 'American' version"
is difficult to support. True, there was Ira Gershwin in America, but he
was Jewish. There have been some 19th century non-Jews named Ira who were
born in the USA, notably Ira Remsen, co-inventor of saccharine, and Ira
Frederick Aldridge, a Black actor famous for tragic roles--but he lived
mostly in Europe (and, coincidence? died in Lodz).

Ira became an "American" name only after it became popular with the
influx of Jewish immigrants >from Eastern Europe.

The Random House Dictionary lists Ira as "a male given name: >from a
Hebrew word meaning 'watchful'. That would be spelled with an initial
`ayin, not with the initial aleph as is the East European Jewish name
derived >from Uri. (Beider also gives an Ira with the `ayin initial.)

To claim that a Jew in Eastern Europe who was called Ira, and never came
to the USA, actually had a different name in the old country and that an
American relative simply "Americanized" his name to Ira, would be akin to
claiming that Michael could not be a Jew and is really an Irishman living
in Dublin, or that Sally's name must have been imposed on her
retroactively by a relative living in Salonika.

Ira was a Jewish name in Europe in the 18th and 19th century. There can
be no doubt about that. There is no need or reason to suppose it was
really an American name imposed retroactively on his ancestor by some
Jewish immigrant in the USA who couldn't think of a better name.

Michael Bernet, New York


Kudos to GerSig #germany

shanghai1@...
 

Kudos to GerSig:

A few years ago someone posted the announcement of a new, German, book,
titled "Exil Shanghai 1938-1947: Juedisches Leben in der Emigration" by
Georg Armbruester, Michael Kohlstruck and Sonja Muehlberger, Editors
("Hrsg."). A request was made regarding the translating of the book's
blurb.

I volunteered.

Fast forward: Ms/Dr. Muehlberger found the post and wrote to
1. thank me and 2. since my URL contains "Shanghai," asked when and
where I lived.

She turns out to be little Sonja, the child on the left hand side of our
school photograph, circa 1947. I was on the right. Considering that the
school picture seems to have entailed the Kindergarten, first and second
grades, we quite obviously knew one another. She and her parents (and
baby brother) returned to Germany immediately after the War (to the Soviet
Sector) and we went to America. Thank God for little favors. Anyhow, we
found each other through the GerSig Webpage.

Yvonne Adler Los Angeles shanghai1@...


German SIG #Germany Kudos to GerSig #germany

shanghai1@...
 

Kudos to GerSig:

A few years ago someone posted the announcement of a new, German, book,
titled "Exil Shanghai 1938-1947: Juedisches Leben in der Emigration" by
Georg Armbruester, Michael Kohlstruck and Sonja Muehlberger, Editors
("Hrsg."). A request was made regarding the translating of the book's
blurb.

I volunteered.

Fast forward: Ms/Dr. Muehlberger found the post and wrote to
1. thank me and 2. since my URL contains "Shanghai," asked when and
where I lived.

She turns out to be little Sonja, the child on the left hand side of our
school photograph, circa 1947. I was on the right. Considering that the
school picture seems to have entailed the Kindergarten, first and second
grades, we quite obviously knew one another. She and her parents (and
baby brother) returned to Germany immediately after the War (to the Soviet
Sector) and we went to America. Thank God for little favors. Anyhow, we
found each other through the GerSig Webpage.

Yvonne Adler Los Angeles shanghai1@...


GUREVITCH #belarus

Dennis Flavell <dennis@...>
 

Am seeking the whereabouts of the hamlet of Krasnoluksk (with its variant
spellings), said to be in the Borisovsk district of Minsk Province .

Also seeking contact with descendents of the GUREVITCH brothers Aaron,
Mendle, Meyer, who went to Canada c 1903 ; and Hyman (to England 1903 and
Nathian to England c 1920).

Also interested in MARCUZE name in Latvia .

Dennis FLAVELL in Cambridgeshire, England.


Belarus SIG #Belarus GUREVITCH #belarus

Dennis Flavell <dennis@...>
 

Am seeking the whereabouts of the hamlet of Krasnoluksk (with its variant
spellings), said to be in the Borisovsk district of Minsk Province .

Also seeking contact with descendents of the GUREVITCH brothers Aaron,
Mendle, Meyer, who went to Canada c 1903 ; and Hyman (to England 1903 and
Nathian to England c 1920).

Also interested in MARCUZE name in Latvia .

Dennis FLAVELL in Cambridgeshire, England.


Re: I need help from a Litvak expert please! #general

Stan Goodman <safeqSPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:44:49 UTC, GERRICA@... opined:

My question is:- can someone who is knowledgeable throw some light on
the surname SHLUZITEL and its origins. To me is sounds Yiddish. Does
any know what it means? And what further advice would they give?
Your phonetic transliteration is pretty fair; better would be
"Sluzhitel". Not Yiddish, it is a Russian word meaning "servant".

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better):
http://www.hashkedim.com

Please remove the CAPITAL LETTERS >from my address in order to send me
email, and include "JEWISHGEN" in the subject line, else your message
will be deleted automatically, unread.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: I need help from a Litvak expert please! #general

Stan Goodman <safeqSPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:44:49 UTC, GERRICA@... opined:

My question is:- can someone who is knowledgeable throw some light on
the surname SHLUZITEL and its origins. To me is sounds Yiddish. Does
any know what it means? And what further advice would they give?
Your phonetic transliteration is pretty fair; better would be
"Sluzhitel". Not Yiddish, it is a Russian word meaning "servant".

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better):
http://www.hashkedim.com

Please remove the CAPITAL LETTERS >from my address in order to send me
email, and include "JEWISHGEN" in the subject line, else your message
will be deleted automatically, unread.


Re: The SEGAL name and Levites #general

Stan Goodman <safeqSPAM_FOILER@...>
 

Just like the guilds which started to appear during the Medieval, the
Jewish "guilds" were of tailors [the importance of the Jewish tailors
was
Because of the prohibition of sha'atnez (mixing incompatible threads -
wool and linen), special strictness had to be observed].
The "guild" of the Levis, was actually a virtual guild, people who kept
the tradition of being Levis, and got ready to serve in the new coming
temple, right after the entry of the Messiah.
The Messiah was on his way, and almost appeared in gaps of about hundred
years, but it turned to be fake, or better, none.
The crusaders made a lot of harm to the Jewish communities of Europe, but
from the other hand the desire and belief that the Messiah is coming
soon, increased...
So the Levies started getting ready and called their "guild" SEGAL.
.... because they were all Levites, of course.

The Hebrew root Samakh Gimel Lamed is expressed in many words
(seventeen entries, even in the one-volume Even-Shoshan dictionary),
and not in all cases is it easy to see the common thread. Most of
these lexical possibilities have by now been proposed in this
discussion, although a prominent exception is the meaning "a
triangular arrangement of three dots, used as a vowel indication below
Hebrew consonants in an auxiliary writing system of medieval
invention". It is only a matter of time until somebody mentions a
three-dot birthmark on the cheek or forehead of Aharon haKohen,
progenitor of all the Levites.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better):
http://www.hashkedim.com

Please remove the CAPITAL LETTERS >from my address in order to send me
email, and include "JEWISHGEN" in the subject line, else your message
will be deleted automatically, unread.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: The SEGAL name and Levites #general

Stan Goodman <safeqSPAM_FOILER@...>
 

Just like the guilds which started to appear during the Medieval, the
Jewish "guilds" were of tailors [the importance of the Jewish tailors
was
Because of the prohibition of sha'atnez (mixing incompatible threads -
wool and linen), special strictness had to be observed].
The "guild" of the Levis, was actually a virtual guild, people who kept
the tradition of being Levis, and got ready to serve in the new coming
temple, right after the entry of the Messiah.
The Messiah was on his way, and almost appeared in gaps of about hundred
years, but it turned to be fake, or better, none.
The crusaders made a lot of harm to the Jewish communities of Europe, but
from the other hand the desire and belief that the Messiah is coming
soon, increased...
So the Levies started getting ready and called their "guild" SEGAL.
.... because they were all Levites, of course.

The Hebrew root Samakh Gimel Lamed is expressed in many words
(seventeen entries, even in the one-volume Even-Shoshan dictionary),
and not in all cases is it easy to see the common thread. Most of
these lexical possibilities have by now been proposed in this
discussion, although a prominent exception is the meaning "a
triangular arrangement of three dots, used as a vowel indication below
Hebrew consonants in an auxiliary writing system of medieval
invention". It is only a matter of time until somebody mentions a
three-dot birthmark on the cheek or forehead of Aharon haKohen,
progenitor of all the Levites.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better):
http://www.hashkedim.com

Please remove the CAPITAL LETTERS >from my address in order to send me
email, and include "JEWISHGEN" in the subject line, else your message
will be deleted automatically, unread.


small groups of a feather #belarus

Florence Schumacher <florenceschumacher@...>
 

BlankIn response to the recent request to form smaller groups, I am
interested in participating in a small Birds of a Feather groups to research
the following towns/names >from Belarus:

1. Drohiiczyn (Brest district) in the Grodno region(researching the
Hoyzman/Hausman/Gauzman/Grossman family) and/or
2. Orsha in the Mogilev region (researching the Shumicher/Schumacher
family)

Please let me know if there is anyone else interested in pooling resources
for these towns or names.

Researching Hoyzman/Gauzman/Grossman >from Drohichin and
Shumitcher/Schumacher >from Orsha, Mogilev district/Belarus; Brod in
Vienna/Lieben/Prague; and Steinberg >from Kishinev/Dubassari, Moldova.


Florence Schumacher
Needham, MA 02492
Email: florenceschumacher@...


Belarus SIG #Belarus small groups of a feather #belarus

Florence Schumacher <florenceschumacher@...>
 

BlankIn response to the recent request to form smaller groups, I am
interested in participating in a small Birds of a Feather groups to research
the following towns/names >from Belarus:

1. Drohiiczyn (Brest district) in the Grodno region(researching the
Hoyzman/Hausman/Gauzman/Grossman family) and/or
2. Orsha in the Mogilev region (researching the Shumicher/Schumacher
family)

Please let me know if there is anyone else interested in pooling resources
for these towns or names.

Researching Hoyzman/Gauzman/Grossman >from Drohichin and
Shumitcher/Schumacher >from Orsha, Mogilev district/Belarus; Brod in
Vienna/Lieben/Prague; and Steinberg >from Kishinev/Dubassari, Moldova.


Florence Schumacher
Needham, MA 02492
Email: florenceschumacher@...


Searching for Moritz and Julius WALLACH and their descendants #germany

Gunther Steinberg <beagun27@...>
 

Looking for information about Moritz and Julius WALLACH,
their "Volkskunsthaus" in Munich (store and museum of traditional
costumes) and their emigration to the USA in 1939.

I am also looking for relatives of Moritz or Julius WALLACH or ..
information about their "Wallach-family"..and about their history
and/or any knowledge or experiences about the "'Volkskunsthaus"' WALLACH
in Munich?

Gunther Steinberg Portola Valley CA <mail to:beagun27@...>


German SIG #Germany Searching for Moritz and Julius WALLACH and their descendants #germany

Gunther Steinberg <beagun27@...>
 

Looking for information about Moritz and Julius WALLACH,
their "Volkskunsthaus" in Munich (store and museum of traditional
costumes) and their emigration to the USA in 1939.

I am also looking for relatives of Moritz or Julius WALLACH or ..
information about their "Wallach-family"..and about their history
and/or any knowledge or experiences about the "'Volkskunsthaus"' WALLACH
in Munich?

Gunther Steinberg Portola Valley CA <mail to:beagun27@...>


Eva K. MAINTHOW #general

Byrnea <byrnea@...>
 

Looking for the descendants of Eva K. PLATSHEK and Samuel M. MAINTHOW.
They married in January of 1887 in, possibly, Savannah. Have checked all
the usual sources with no luck. Please respond privately to
<byrnea@...>. Thanks in advance.

Ann Guthman Byrne
Colorado
byrnea@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Eva K. MAINTHOW #general

Byrnea <byrnea@...>
 

Looking for the descendants of Eva K. PLATSHEK and Samuel M. MAINTHOW.
They married in January of 1887 in, possibly, Savannah. Have checked all
the usual sources with no luck. Please respond privately to
<byrnea@...>. Thanks in advance.

Ann Guthman Byrne
Colorado
byrnea@...


Theodor HERZL's Hebrew name #general

MBernet@...
 

The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor HERZL, is known in Israel by his
Hebrew name, Binyamin Ze`ev.

Does anyone know whether that Hebrew name comes >from records or documents,
or whether the name was "imposed" on him, in his lifetime or after his
death.

There is no obvious connection between Theodor and Binyamin (or Ze'ev,
which is a kinnuy for Binyamin). Moreover, double-Hebrew names, such as
Binyamin Ze`ev, had long been out of fashion in Eastern Europe (Herzl was
born in Budapest, into a very assimilated family in 1860), and he would
likely have had the Yiddish kinnuy, Wolf, and perhaps a German name like
Wilhelm or Walter to go with the Wolf.

Does anyone know how the Binyamin Ze'ev name became known to us?

Michael Bernet, New York


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Theodor HERZL's Hebrew name #general

MBernet@...
 

The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor HERZL, is known in Israel by his
Hebrew name, Binyamin Ze`ev.

Does anyone know whether that Hebrew name comes >from records or documents,
or whether the name was "imposed" on him, in his lifetime or after his
death.

There is no obvious connection between Theodor and Binyamin (or Ze'ev,
which is a kinnuy for Binyamin). Moreover, double-Hebrew names, such as
Binyamin Ze`ev, had long been out of fashion in Eastern Europe (Herzl was
born in Budapest, into a very assimilated family in 1860), and he would
likely have had the Yiddish kinnuy, Wolf, and perhaps a German name like
Wilhelm or Walter to go with the Wolf.

Does anyone know how the Binyamin Ze'ev name became known to us?

Michael Bernet, New York


Re: The SEGAL name and Levites #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/4/2003 4:35:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
chaikin@... writes:

<< =In my paternal family I found the surname HALBE"Z [heh - lammed - bet -
tzadi], which is the initials of the written in the book of Yechskel,
chapter 44: ...Ha'Leviyim Bney Tzadok [The Levis' Sons Of Tzadok].

==I suggest that anyone who is still interested in the SEGAL-Levite
controversy, check out the entire verse 15 of Chapter 44 of Ezekiel which
starts with "vehaKohanim haLevi'im benei Zadok" which very clearly states
that these descendants of Zadok were Kohanim (as we know >from hundreds of
other sources) who are part of the larger tribe of Levi. I do not doubt
Udi's assertion that his ancestors adopted their name >from this verse, but
that can not in any way be a claim that those who are known in Modern
times as Levites are at the same time Kohanim.

Udi Cain follows with "I am trying to find out if Levis' families of
Bulgarian origin and >from the other hand of Bukharan origin, who are
called TZADIKOV, are the same as my HALB"Z.

==That is an interesting question but it has nothing to do with Segal.
I suggest it would best be posted on Sefardsig where Udi will find others
knowledgable about Bulgarian and Bokharan origins.

So you have an example of Levis' who calls themselves in a different
surname, just like the SEGALs'. So each branch chose a surname which
gives hint about their origin occupation, and kept it for the next
temple...

==Interesting. Perhaps Udi can explain the following Temple duties. All
were names assumed by my ur-known-ancestor, Suessl [ben] Hirsch haLevi:

Bernet
Frensdorf
Frensdorff (this was the line of rabbis and scholars in Hamburg and Hanover)
Feldheim
Elkan
Adlerstein
Marum
. . . and others.

==Levites and Kohanim diverged completely at least 2000 years ago. I am
not aware that there has ever been a group pf Ashkenazi Jews who were
anticipating, preparing for or training for an early restoration of Temple
worship and sacrifices (in fact Maimonides has very firmly stated his
belief that when the Temple is rebuilt, sacrifices will no longer be
offered there.

Maybe HALB"Z = high priests, SEGAL = second to the high priests and or in
general: who served in the temple. >>

==or anybody or anything in general. There can be no end to speculation
or to personal enquiry.

==Is it OK is we close now without knowing the answer why SG"L is a
frequently used acronym that denotes on a document, register, tombstone,
etc., that a specific person (who may bear one of thousands of names
other than the family name SEGAL) is or was a Levite? We just don't know.
We can make a few learned guesses, and we can make an unlimited number of
unlearned guesses.

Michael Bernet, New York

MODERATOR NOTE: Sounds like a good suggestion. This is veering
away >from genealogical issues. Further discussion of priestly
duties and practices should take place off list.


English name for Ima #general

Mervin
 

I have secured Canadian Naturalization papers for my uncle. In it he lists
as one of his children "Ima." I know, in Hebrew ima means mother. Can
anyone help solve this mystery?
Merv Glow
Palm Springs
mglow@...