Date   

LEDERMAN #general

BetteJoy <bettejoy@...>
 

Searching for the LEDERMAN who was president of JGS of Canada. I may have
an Israeli connection for him. Thank you.

Betty Provizer Starkman
Bloomfield Hills, MI

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately.


Dr. Norman WEINBERG #general

BetteJoy <bettejoy@...>
 

Norman,

Your emails have been bouncing. Have you changed your address? We at the
Ilza/Drilge Cemetery Restoration Project, must contact you.

Betty Provizer Starkman
Bloomfield Hills, MI

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately.


Re: FRAENKEL from Oberglogau #general

Roger Lustig <trovato@...>
 

Dear William:
The first place I'd look is in the microfilmed birth, marriage, and
death records of Oberglogau (1847-1874) that you can view at a Family
History Center of the LDS Church. (The "Pinkus-Fraenkel Archive" you
cite in your notes probably used this source, given the specificity of
many of the entries >from around that time.) Note, though, that there
are many other records in that part of the world, that were *not* filmed
by the Mormons or by the Reichssippenamt in the late 1930's. The
archives in Opole have a good reputation, and the JHI in Warsaw may be
able to help you out too.

As for finding people in a published genealogy, keep in mind that the
name Fraenkel was very, very widespread. In Upper and Middle Silesia,
61 heads of household named Fraenkel took Prussian citizenship between
1812 and 1814. I have enough headaches with the 8 LUSTIG families.

However: about half of the FRAENKEL entries in the 1812 citizenship
register are >from Breslau. Only five are >from Zuelz, which might help.
In fact, there's an Abraham Isaac FRAENKEL of Zuelz on the list, No.
835. The Isaac FRAENKEL you have on your site could possibly be No.
867, who was living in Myslowitz (Kreis Pless) in 1812, but again, it's
hardly an uncommon name. One might check Zuelz records to see whether
siblings of Jacob (b.1809, Zuelz) were being born there, etc. in
1812-14; if so, one could rule this one out.

For your #73, Blume/Bertha WIENER, there are two WIENER family heads in
Zuelz (out of 19 overall): Aaron WIENER and Berel Kiefer WIENER.

By the way, I note that Isaac FRAENKEL is the grandson of Isaac
FRAENKEL, who lived for 47 years after his grandson's birth. Unusual
naming, but not impossible--one or the other might have had that as a
"street" name and been Issachar or Israel or any other name in the
synagogue.

...the land of the bean and the cod, where the FRAENKELs talk only to
CABOTs...

Amazing.

Roger Lustig

WReitwiesn wrote:
I'm trying to find more about the family of Mathilde Fraenkel, daughter of
Jakob Fraenkel, >from Oberglogau in Prussia (now Glogowek, Poland).
Mathildemwas probably born around 1850. She married Benedict Kohn, a
master brewer, and they were living at Bennisch, Austria (now Horni
Benesov, in the Czech Republic) in 1873 when their son Fritz Kohn was
born there. Fritz later changed his name >from KOHN to KERRY, and
emigrated to the US through Ellis Island in 1905. See
< http://members.aol.com/wreitwiesn/candidates2004/kerry.html > for
further details.

These folks are no direct connection to me, but I can't find Jakob or
Mathilde in the large Fraenkel genealogy, "Genealogical Tables of Jewish
Families", published in 1999 by Saur, or among the many Fraenkels
mentioned in Neil Rosenstein's "The Unbroken Chain" [1990]. Any
suggestions would be appreciated.

William Addams Reitwiesner
WReitwiesn@aol.com
mailto:wreitwiesn@aol.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen LEDERMAN #general

BetteJoy <bettejoy@...>
 

Searching for the LEDERMAN who was president of JGS of Canada. I may have
an Israeli connection for him. Thank you.

Betty Provizer Starkman
Bloomfield Hills, MI

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Dr. Norman WEINBERG #general

BetteJoy <bettejoy@...>
 

Norman,

Your emails have been bouncing. Have you changed your address? We at the
Ilza/Drilge Cemetery Restoration Project, must contact you.

Betty Provizer Starkman
Bloomfield Hills, MI

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: FRAENKEL from Oberglogau #general

Roger Lustig <trovato@...>
 

Dear William:
The first place I'd look is in the microfilmed birth, marriage, and
death records of Oberglogau (1847-1874) that you can view at a Family
History Center of the LDS Church. (The "Pinkus-Fraenkel Archive" you
cite in your notes probably used this source, given the specificity of
many of the entries >from around that time.) Note, though, that there
are many other records in that part of the world, that were *not* filmed
by the Mormons or by the Reichssippenamt in the late 1930's. The
archives in Opole have a good reputation, and the JHI in Warsaw may be
able to help you out too.

As for finding people in a published genealogy, keep in mind that the
name Fraenkel was very, very widespread. In Upper and Middle Silesia,
61 heads of household named Fraenkel took Prussian citizenship between
1812 and 1814. I have enough headaches with the 8 LUSTIG families.

However: about half of the FRAENKEL entries in the 1812 citizenship
register are >from Breslau. Only five are >from Zuelz, which might help.
In fact, there's an Abraham Isaac FRAENKEL of Zuelz on the list, No.
835. The Isaac FRAENKEL you have on your site could possibly be No.
867, who was living in Myslowitz (Kreis Pless) in 1812, but again, it's
hardly an uncommon name. One might check Zuelz records to see whether
siblings of Jacob (b.1809, Zuelz) were being born there, etc. in
1812-14; if so, one could rule this one out.

For your #73, Blume/Bertha WIENER, there are two WIENER family heads in
Zuelz (out of 19 overall): Aaron WIENER and Berel Kiefer WIENER.

By the way, I note that Isaac FRAENKEL is the grandson of Isaac
FRAENKEL, who lived for 47 years after his grandson's birth. Unusual
naming, but not impossible--one or the other might have had that as a
"street" name and been Issachar or Israel or any other name in the
synagogue.

...the land of the bean and the cod, where the FRAENKELs talk only to
CABOTs...

Amazing.

Roger Lustig

WReitwiesn wrote:
I'm trying to find more about the family of Mathilde Fraenkel, daughter of
Jakob Fraenkel, >from Oberglogau in Prussia (now Glogowek, Poland).
Mathildemwas probably born around 1850. She married Benedict Kohn, a
master brewer, and they were living at Bennisch, Austria (now Horni
Benesov, in the Czech Republic) in 1873 when their son Fritz Kohn was
born there. Fritz later changed his name >from KOHN to KERRY, and
emigrated to the US through Ellis Island in 1905. See
< http://members.aol.com/wreitwiesn/candidates2004/kerry.html > for
further details.

These folks are no direct connection to me, but I can't find Jakob or
Mathilde in the large Fraenkel genealogy, "Genealogical Tables of Jewish
Families", published in 1999 by Saur, or among the many Fraenkels
mentioned in Neil Rosenstein's "The Unbroken Chain" [1990]. Any
suggestions would be appreciated.

William Addams Reitwiesner
WReitwiesn@aol.com
mailto:wreitwiesn@aol.com


Names changes #belarus

Florence Gurwin <fgurwin@...>
 

There is another possible reason a name used to enter the U.S. was not the
same as one's known name. If one used someone else's identification papers
to enter this country, that would be the name on the manifest. Later, once
here, they would go back to their own name.

I know for a fact that that happened. My mother came to this country with a
friend of her sister. That friend used my mother's half-sister's
identification papers. I remember my mother telling me about her
half-sister's papers being used. It wasn't until I found my mother's
manifest that I saw the other person listed with her. Since we know that
half-sister never came to this country, we know the story she and my aunt
told was true.

Unfortunately, someone looking for the person arriving with my mother might
have one heckava time finding her.

Florence Gurwin
Columbus, OH

Researching PEISACHOV, PASACHOVITCH, PEISACHOW, SHLEIFERMAN


Belarus SIG #Belarus Names changes #belarus

Florence Gurwin <fgurwin@...>
 

There is another possible reason a name used to enter the U.S. was not the
same as one's known name. If one used someone else's identification papers
to enter this country, that would be the name on the manifest. Later, once
here, they would go back to their own name.

I know for a fact that that happened. My mother came to this country with a
friend of her sister. That friend used my mother's half-sister's
identification papers. I remember my mother telling me about her
half-sister's papers being used. It wasn't until I found my mother's
manifest that I saw the other person listed with her. Since we know that
half-sister never came to this country, we know the story she and my aunt
told was true.

Unfortunately, someone looking for the person arriving with my mother might
have one heckava time finding her.

Florence Gurwin
Columbus, OH

Researching PEISACHOV, PASACHOVITCH, PEISACHOW, SHLEIFERMAN


Re: Russian name for Rokiskis #lithuania

Bronstein Family <sygaa@...>
 

Dear Fellow LitvakSigers,
According to Dov Levin's Pinkas Hakehillot, page 647 the Russian name is
Rokishki.

Shalom Bronstein, Jerusalem
Researching - SHULMAN/SHILLMAN - Panevezys; BLOCH - Krekanava (Lithuania);
the DIMMERMAN, BECK & GELMAN families >from Ostrog & vicinity (Volhyn);
BRONSTEIN, BROWNSTEIN, RUNSTEIN, ROCHMANN - Kishinev (Moldava); GOLDSTEIN -
Iasi (Romania) - those who came to America all settled in Philadelphia;
GOLDZWEIG & LETZTER - Cholojow/Uzlovoye (Eastern Galicia/Ukraine)

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian & Sharon Peerutin [mailto:jpeer@aquanet.co.il]
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 4:46 PM

I have recently found out Kupiskis, Lithuania [Peerutin>] is also known
as Slavianisky, Russia.

Does anyone know the Russian name for Rokiskis, Lithuania


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania RE: Russian name for Rokiskis #lithuania

Bronstein Family <sygaa@...>
 

Dear Fellow LitvakSigers,
According to Dov Levin's Pinkas Hakehillot, page 647 the Russian name is
Rokishki.

Shalom Bronstein, Jerusalem
Researching - SHULMAN/SHILLMAN - Panevezys; BLOCH - Krekanava (Lithuania);
the DIMMERMAN, BECK & GELMAN families >from Ostrog & vicinity (Volhyn);
BRONSTEIN, BROWNSTEIN, RUNSTEIN, ROCHMANN - Kishinev (Moldava); GOLDSTEIN -
Iasi (Romania) - those who came to America all settled in Philadelphia;
GOLDZWEIG & LETZTER - Cholojow/Uzlovoye (Eastern Galicia/Ukraine)

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian & Sharon Peerutin [mailto:jpeer@aquanet.co.il]
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 4:46 PM

I have recently found out Kupiskis, Lithuania [Peerutin>] is also known
as Slavianisky, Russia.

Does anyone know the Russian name for Rokiskis, Lithuania


NOTES/NOTIS Family of Kovno-Slobodka #lithuania

yashad@...
 

My maternal grandfather was Edward Cutler (1899-1979), nee KOTLER, z"l. His mother was Tone-Hene (Hannah), nee NOTES/NOTIS (1861-1936). Hannah's father was Markel ben-Tanchum HaKohen NOTES. The entire family came >from
Kovno-Slobodka, Lithuania.

The first-names Markel (Meir), Notel/Nathan and Tanchum/Nachum were very
common throughout my family. My great-grandmother, Tone-Hene, was apparently named after her grandfather Tanchum.

Recently, I contacted Dr. Stephen Natelson of Nashville, Tenn., author of Die Ganz Mischpochoh (1995). His family surname was originally NOTES, and come >from Jonava, Kovno-Guberniya. Stephen's great-grandfather (or an earlier ancestor) was Trube ben-Rodes NOTES. Dr. Natelson thinks either one or both unusual names clearly confirms the legend of the NOTES' French Sephardi origins, which was emphatically told to him by his grandfather (pp. 4-8).

Could the unusual first-name Trube equally be evidence of the family's
correlating French origins? Trube seems to be the name of a more remote
ancestor, or even confusion with a town name. Traub was a common Ashkenazi
surname which means "grape" in German, but that would seem inappropriate for a personal name. Additionally, there was a town Traby in Vilna-Guberniya.

My hunch and instincts tempt me to link Trube to TREVES. Perhaps this name
retains and denotes the convergence of two distinct strains, Sephardi and
Ashkenazi (Tzarfati), eventually merged into one family.

While attending the 1996 JGS Annual Conference in Boston, Prof. Dov Levin,
one of the foremost experts on Lithuanian Jewry, informed me that the name
Markel was the Yiddish diminutive/nickname for Meir. Moreover, I have heard that Tanchum, as well as Meir, Yechiel and especially the double-name Yechiel-Michel (ex. - the Malbim), alludes to a "bequeathed religious legacy" (i.e. - Rabbinic heritage?). Prof. Levin's book, Pinkas HaKehillot Lita (1996), briefly mentions a Rabbi Hersch NOTES (p. 509).

In some SS-5 (Social Security) application forms, marriage and death
certificates, my grandfather and his siblings variously listed their mother as "Hannah Markel" or "Marcus," obviously her father's first name tacked on as a patronymic substitute surname. In others, the correct surname NOTES/NOTIS is provided.

Interestingly, the name Markel (mem-alef-resh-kof-ayin-lamed) is alternately misspelled in Yiddish in two instances in the Kovno BMD metrical records as "Margil" (mem-resh-gimel-[yud]-lamed). This might simply be explained by a clerk either unfamiliar with such a rare name or a misunderstanding/spelling error. Of course, the correct spelling is reflected on my great-grandmother Hannah's headstone. However, this "variant" misspelling bears a resemblance to the surname MARGOLIS.

Most first-names in the family tend to reflect and put playful variations on the NOTES surname. Although it clearly derives >from Nathan/Note, could NOTES alternately be read as MATOS, a Yiddish form of Mattityah? One of the earliest ancestors of the TREVES family was Mattityah TREVES (1325-1387), whose father Joseph was >from Marseilles, France. Similarly, could the name Markel also be a simulative remnant of Marseilles?

Neither the first-names Trube nor Rodes appear in any Hebrew/Yiddish
first-name dictionaries. Is anyone familiar with these two names and their
standard etymological origins? Is it possible that the first-names Trube and Markel ("Margil") echo "companion" surnames, namely the TREVES and MARGOLIS families?

Note: Please respond privately.

Sincerely,
Irwin Gordon
yashad@aol.com


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania NOTES/NOTIS Family of Kovno-Slobodka #lithuania

yashad@...
 

My maternal grandfather was Edward Cutler (1899-1979), nee KOTLER, z"l. His mother was Tone-Hene (Hannah), nee NOTES/NOTIS (1861-1936). Hannah's father was Markel ben-Tanchum HaKohen NOTES. The entire family came >from
Kovno-Slobodka, Lithuania.

The first-names Markel (Meir), Notel/Nathan and Tanchum/Nachum were very
common throughout my family. My great-grandmother, Tone-Hene, was apparently named after her grandfather Tanchum.

Recently, I contacted Dr. Stephen Natelson of Nashville, Tenn., author of Die Ganz Mischpochoh (1995). His family surname was originally NOTES, and come >from Jonava, Kovno-Guberniya. Stephen's great-grandfather (or an earlier ancestor) was Trube ben-Rodes NOTES. Dr. Natelson thinks either one or both unusual names clearly confirms the legend of the NOTES' French Sephardi origins, which was emphatically told to him by his grandfather (pp. 4-8).

Could the unusual first-name Trube equally be evidence of the family's
correlating French origins? Trube seems to be the name of a more remote
ancestor, or even confusion with a town name. Traub was a common Ashkenazi
surname which means "grape" in German, but that would seem inappropriate for a personal name. Additionally, there was a town Traby in Vilna-Guberniya.

My hunch and instincts tempt me to link Trube to TREVES. Perhaps this name
retains and denotes the convergence of two distinct strains, Sephardi and
Ashkenazi (Tzarfati), eventually merged into one family.

While attending the 1996 JGS Annual Conference in Boston, Prof. Dov Levin,
one of the foremost experts on Lithuanian Jewry, informed me that the name
Markel was the Yiddish diminutive/nickname for Meir. Moreover, I have heard that Tanchum, as well as Meir, Yechiel and especially the double-name Yechiel-Michel (ex. - the Malbim), alludes to a "bequeathed religious legacy" (i.e. - Rabbinic heritage?). Prof. Levin's book, Pinkas HaKehillot Lita (1996), briefly mentions a Rabbi Hersch NOTES (p. 509).

In some SS-5 (Social Security) application forms, marriage and death
certificates, my grandfather and his siblings variously listed their mother as "Hannah Markel" or "Marcus," obviously her father's first name tacked on as a patronymic substitute surname. In others, the correct surname NOTES/NOTIS is provided.

Interestingly, the name Markel (mem-alef-resh-kof-ayin-lamed) is alternately misspelled in Yiddish in two instances in the Kovno BMD metrical records as "Margil" (mem-resh-gimel-[yud]-lamed). This might simply be explained by a clerk either unfamiliar with such a rare name or a misunderstanding/spelling error. Of course, the correct spelling is reflected on my great-grandmother Hannah's headstone. However, this "variant" misspelling bears a resemblance to the surname MARGOLIS.

Most first-names in the family tend to reflect and put playful variations on the NOTES surname. Although it clearly derives >from Nathan/Note, could NOTES alternately be read as MATOS, a Yiddish form of Mattityah? One of the earliest ancestors of the TREVES family was Mattityah TREVES (1325-1387), whose father Joseph was >from Marseilles, France. Similarly, could the name Markel also be a simulative remnant of Marseilles?

Neither the first-names Trube nor Rodes appear in any Hebrew/Yiddish
first-name dictionaries. Is anyone familiar with these two names and their
standard etymological origins? Is it possible that the first-names Trube and Markel ("Margil") echo "companion" surnames, namely the TREVES and MARGOLIS families?

Note: Please respond privately.

Sincerely,
Irwin Gordon
yashad@aol.com


Gold Chain - One Final Word? #galicia

Richard Cooper <ric@...>
 

Just read Friday's digest and I see it's genig with the gold chains!
Unless you're brekhing with it, might I be allowed one final word?
The BBC has just finished broadcasting a dramatisation of George
Eliot's 'Daniel Deronda'. My mother viewed this avidly and it
inspired her to re-read her old copy. You know what? Daniel visits
the Lapidoth family in the East End of London as they're sitting
round the dinner table on Friday night dresed in all their
Shabbus finery - and there is Mrs. Lapidoth wearing a long gold chain!

Happy holidays and good ancestor-spotting!
Ric Cooper
Gosport, UK
ADLER, LEWINSTEIN & FINKELSTEIN >from Ternopil
LEZTER, RINENBERG & SALENDER >from Rzeszow
MILLET, PITERZEIL & BLUMENKAHL >from Dabrowa Tarnowska


[MODERATOR NOTE: That's it folks! It's been great, and thank you all.
Thread Closed.]


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Gold Chain - One Final Word? #galicia

Richard Cooper <ric@...>
 

Just read Friday's digest and I see it's genig with the gold chains!
Unless you're brekhing with it, might I be allowed one final word?
The BBC has just finished broadcasting a dramatisation of George
Eliot's 'Daniel Deronda'. My mother viewed this avidly and it
inspired her to re-read her old copy. You know what? Daniel visits
the Lapidoth family in the East End of London as they're sitting
round the dinner table on Friday night dresed in all their
Shabbus finery - and there is Mrs. Lapidoth wearing a long gold chain!

Happy holidays and good ancestor-spotting!
Ric Cooper
Gosport, UK
ADLER, LEWINSTEIN & FINKELSTEIN >from Ternopil
LEZTER, RINENBERG & SALENDER >from Rzeszow
MILLET, PITERZEIL & BLUMENKAHL >from Dabrowa Tarnowska


[MODERATOR NOTE: That's it folks! It's been great, and thank you all.
Thread Closed.]


Gold Chain Watches #galicia

Natalie & Ernie Hartz
 

I found this thread very interesting. I am in possession of a watch with
fob and chain. My mother said the watch belonged to her grandmother, but
Mom purchased the chain and I think the pin herself. What is even more
remarkable is that I have a portrait photo taken when my grandparents
were young (probably newlyweds) and with her Gibson girl look my
grandmother has a watch pinned onto her blouse--I can't tell if it is
the same watch. (it almost looks as if it were painted on) Another
portrait of the whole family taken much earlier shows my great
grandmother wearing a long chain attached to a pin with a watch, but the
picture is too small to see if it is the same as the one I was given.
What is truly interesting is that this family was not wealthy--not
landowners, in fact rather poor (to my knowledge) but it does seem
possible that when they arrived here and wanted to give a gift, jewelry
(particularly watches) was the thing they saved up for and gave. It was
something special to be cherished and very very portable.
I still don't know if the watch I have really was my great grandmothers,
but it is a Waltham (was that a cheap watch or a good one?) so it didn't
come all the way >from Europe.
They knew what they were doing--that and a couple of other small pieces
have lasted through a couple of generations and luckily I have daughters
and granddaughters to pass these onto. They will be cherished as family
heirlooms no matter how small their monetary value.

Natalie Hartz
E.Windsor, NJ
Researching: BERKOWSKY, RESNICK, RAFEL, ALTMAN


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Gold Chain Watches #galicia

Natalie & Ernie Hartz
 

I found this thread very interesting. I am in possession of a watch with
fob and chain. My mother said the watch belonged to her grandmother, but
Mom purchased the chain and I think the pin herself. What is even more
remarkable is that I have a portrait photo taken when my grandparents
were young (probably newlyweds) and with her Gibson girl look my
grandmother has a watch pinned onto her blouse--I can't tell if it is
the same watch. (it almost looks as if it were painted on) Another
portrait of the whole family taken much earlier shows my great
grandmother wearing a long chain attached to a pin with a watch, but the
picture is too small to see if it is the same as the one I was given.
What is truly interesting is that this family was not wealthy--not
landowners, in fact rather poor (to my knowledge) but it does seem
possible that when they arrived here and wanted to give a gift, jewelry
(particularly watches) was the thing they saved up for and gave. It was
something special to be cherished and very very portable.
I still don't know if the watch I have really was my great grandmothers,
but it is a Waltham (was that a cheap watch or a good one?) so it didn't
come all the way >from Europe.
They knew what they were doing--that and a couple of other small pieces
have lasted through a couple of generations and luckily I have daughters
and granddaughters to pass these onto. They will be cherished as family
heirlooms no matter how small their monetary value.

Natalie Hartz
E.Windsor, NJ
Researching: BERKOWSKY, RESNICK, RAFEL, ALTMAN


the tree that eats gravestones #galicia

Joyce Field <jfield@...>
 

Thank you for the reminder by Eva Florsheim, "We must hurry up to
document the remains of
Jewish life in Galicia, before nature and time erase what is still
there." Her comment is most appropriate. It is the reason why
JewishGen believes that the Online Worldwide Burial Registry is so
important. It is vital that we record what remains of Jewish
tombstones and make this data available to everyone.

If you are not familiar with this project and how you can help,
please see http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/cemetery/. In short we
want to document the tombstones worldwide-- in central and eastern
Europe as well as the landsmanschaft plots in the United States, in
Israel as well as in South and Central America, in South Africa as
well as in Egypt and Turkey. Time is running out.

Joyce Field
jfield@jewishgen.org


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia the tree that eats gravestones #galicia

Joyce Field <jfield@...>
 

Thank you for the reminder by Eva Florsheim, "We must hurry up to
document the remains of
Jewish life in Galicia, before nature and time erase what is still
there." Her comment is most appropriate. It is the reason why
JewishGen believes that the Online Worldwide Burial Registry is so
important. It is vital that we record what remains of Jewish
tombstones and make this data available to everyone.

If you are not familiar with this project and how you can help,
please see http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/cemetery/. In short we
want to document the tombstones worldwide-- in central and eastern
Europe as well as the landsmanschaft plots in the United States, in
Israel as well as in South and Central America, in South Africa as
well as in Egypt and Turkey. Time is running out.

Joyce Field
jfield@jewishgen.org


Re: 1944 Hungarian Census Info #hungary

Gábor Hirsch <hirsch@...>
 

To the letter of Mr. Yaacov Lozowick about the "1944 census of Jews in
Hungary" even as a layman I am convinced that it existed and at least of
fragments still exists but not as a unified document. I was looking for
a long time for deportation list of the Ghetto of Bekescsaba, As an
answer of a contribution in a Holocaust Discussion Forum I got several
copies regarding Bekescsaba. One of them was two lists one of the neolog
and another of the orthodox communities. The neolog was dated on 10
April 1944 and registered by the M. Kir. csendor nyomozo alosztaly
Debreczen on 16 April and listed 1237 persons, The orthodox list was
dated on 9. April 1944 and registered by the M. Kir. csendor nyomozo
alosztaly Debreczen on ?16 April and listed 812 persons. On an inquiry
in the archive was informed that they have the lists oft the following
jewish communities:
Abadszalók, Bakonszeg, Balmazújváros(1), Battonya(2), Berettyóújfalu,
Berettyósszentmárton, Berekböszörmény(2), Békés(2), Békéscsaba(2),
Biharkeresztes, Biharnagybajom, Bihartorda, Biharugra, Bojt, Bucsa,
Csabacsüd, Csanádapáca, Csépa, Csorvás, Csökmõ, Darvas, , Derecske,
Dévaványa, Doboz, Dombegyház, Dombiratos, Egyek(1), Elek, Endrõd(2),
Esztár, Fegyvernek, Felsõbarakony, Földes(1), Füzesgyarmat(2), Gáborján,
Gádoros, Gyoma, Gyapjú, Gyula(2), Hajduböszörmény(1,2), Hajdudorog(1),
Hajduhadház(1), Hajdúnánás(1), Hajdusámson(1), Hajduszovát, Hencida,
Hosszupályi, Józsa(1), Kaba(1), Karcag, Kenderes, Kétegyháza, Kevermes,
Kisujszállás, Komádi, Kondoros(2), Körõsszakál, Körösszegapáti,
Köröstarcsa, Kötegyán, Kötelek, Kunágota, Kunhegyes, Kunmadaras,
Magyarbánhegyes, Magyarhomorog, Medgyesbodzás, Mezöberény(2),
Mezõhegyes, Mezõkovácsháza(2), Mezõmegyer, Mezõsas, Mezötur(2),
Mikepércs(1), Monostorpályi, Nádudvar(1), Nagybánhegyes, Nagycsere,
Nagykamarás Nagyrábé, Nagyszalonta Nagyszénás, Okány, Oláhszentmiklós,
Orosháza(2), Öcsöd(2), Pusztaföldvár, Pusztakengyel, Pocsaj,
Püspökladány(1), Rákóczifalva Reformátuskovácsháza, Sáp, Sarkad,
Sarkadkeresztur, Szajol, Szeghalom(2), Szentetornya(2), Szentpéterszeg,
Szolnok, Tetétlen(1), Téglás(1), Tiszabura, Tigzacsege(1), Tiszadersz,
Tiszaroff, Tiszaszentimre, Tiszavárkony, Told, Totkomlos(2),
Törökszentmiklós, Turkeve, Újkígyós(2), Vámospércs(1), Végegyháza,
Vértes, Vésztö(2), Vezseny, Zsadány, Zsáka.
The communities marked (2) are the ones I copied because the either
belonged to the ghetto of Bekescsaba or for my private interest, the
ones marked (1) are published in the book "Nevek, Names, of the deported
Jews >from Hajdu county, Hungary" a publication by Yad Vashem, one of the
supporters/founders of the book is M/M Louis Schonfeld, Beachwood Ohio
USA, long year moderator of H-SIG, he might know about the Lists
mentioned in the introduction of the book "Names". The following
sentences might give you some idea

" The Germans were not sure of Hungarian cooperation in the deportation
and that is why their chief collaborators, Endre and Baky, decided on
the experimental registration. Alas, they had nothing to fear. Only a
very few Hungarian officers protested about police interference and even
they stopped protesting when the District Commissioners quieted their
fears in a circular, ensuring them of the legality of the action. After
the experiment, registration of the Jews began all over Hungary, except
the Budapest area. We have in our hands an order of the Ministry of
Interior, dated the 4th of April 1944, according to which all the Local
Authorities should prepare a list of all the Jews with four copies, one
of which should be sent to the local Police, the second one to the
Gendarmerie, the third copy to the Ministry of Interior in Budapest.
This list should include the name of mother as well."

I can't believe it that >from the prepared 4 copies none is preserved
except the one in the Debrecen Gendarmerie and deportatation center.
According of "Nevek" they have also the copies beside the county Hajdu
also >from Bihar, Bekes, Szolnok and Csanad counties. It would be
interesting to get an answer >from Yaacov Lozowick or >from Dr. Gavriel
Bar-Shaked what is with the lists of the 4 counties which are according
the book in possession of Yad Vashem or the Remembrance Authority.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

PS. if somebody is interested I can send (as attachment) the
Introduction resp. the Bevezeto of the book, as they differ a bit, and
the ministerial order for preparation of the list.


Adam Smith schrieb:

Hi Everyone,

I recently inquired to Yad Vashem regarding the 1944 Hungarian Jewish
Census records. I thought I would share the response with the group.

Take care,
Adam Smith
New York, NY


Dear Mr. Smith,

As a result of that agreement, about 150,000 pages of documentation
from the Baranya county in southern Hungary has been sent to Yad
Vashem (in microfilm form). Additional reels, >from other parts of
Hungary, will be coming in over the coming months and years.

To the best of my knowledge, the 1944 census of Jews in Hungary, if it
ever existed as a unified document, no-longer does. Local lists of
Jews in particular areas or towns sometimes exist, and there are
countless rumours about a national list, but in spite of having
repeatedly heard that it's somewhere else, I have never seen it, nor
have I ever heard a reliable report >from anyone who has. >from my own
research, which dealt with the SS in Hungary, I can add that I never
saw any German documentation that mentioned the existence of such a
list - which of course doesn't prove anything, but does leave open the
possibility that there was no list.

Yaacov Lozowick


Theresa and Alex S Deutsch #hungary

Malcolm Dodd <maldodd@...>
 

The best advice we have is to ask our elderly relatives whilst we can.
My second cousin who is 85 and has been in hospital has just informed me
that my Hungarian g gmother was Theresa Deutsch (married Isaac Neiger born
1848) and she had a brother Alex S Deutsch who lived to be 103 in Chicago.
I have found a candidate - but he was ONLY 100 - do you think that an error
of 3 years is possible?
Alexander DEUTSCH
Birth Date: 2 Feb 1869
Death Date: Sep 1969
Social Security Number: 321-14-0366
State or Territory Where Number Was Issued: Illinois

Death Residence Localities
ZIP Code: 60649
Localities: Chicago, Cook, Illinois
South Shore, Cook, Illinois
Malcolm Dodd
Portugal