Date   

*re: Yad Vashem - list of names from France #general

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Dear all,

Although a very important information, the list mentioned by Richard doesn't
contains the complete list of French Holocaust victims. Actually this document
is part of a Yad Vashem page dedicated to Name Reading Ceremonies, and can be
found at the following address:
http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/download/index_download.html

According to Yad Vashem, the names of the Holocaust victims that appear in the
files on that page were taken >from *some* of the Pages of Testimony submitted
to them. For those who would prefer to commemorate the victims of a specific
location, lists of names of Holocaust victims by country are also given on that
page. The one mentioned by Richard is for France.

Regards
Tom

At 01:00 -0500 12.05.2004, JewishGen Discussion Group digest wrote:
Subject: Yad Vashem - list of names >from France
From: "Marilynn Wenig" <birdmom@cybertrails.com>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 22:09:17 -0700

http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/download/remembrance/bycountry/FRANCEENGLISH.pdf -

I found the above site when surfing the web, It contains a list of names
from the Holocaust >from France.
Richard Wenig
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen *re: Yad Vashem - list of names from France #general

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Dear all,

Although a very important information, the list mentioned by Richard doesn't
contains the complete list of French Holocaust victims. Actually this document
is part of a Yad Vashem page dedicated to Name Reading Ceremonies, and can be
found at the following address:
http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/download/index_download.html

According to Yad Vashem, the names of the Holocaust victims that appear in the
files on that page were taken >from *some* of the Pages of Testimony submitted
to them. For those who would prefer to commemorate the victims of a specific
location, lists of names of Holocaust victims by country are also given on that
page. The one mentioned by Richard is for France.

Regards
Tom

At 01:00 -0500 12.05.2004, JewishGen Discussion Group digest wrote:
Subject: Yad Vashem - list of names >from France
From: "Marilynn Wenig" <birdmom@cybertrails.com>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 22:09:17 -0700

http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/download/remembrance/bycountry/FRANCEENGLISH.pdf -

I found the above site when surfing the web, It contains a list of names
from the Holocaust >from France.
Richard Wenig
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil


Re: Yad Vashem - list of names from France #general

Eve Line Blum <eve.line.blum@...>
 

Richard Wenig wrote about the site
http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/download/remembrance/bycountry/FRANCEENGLISH.pdf
which contains a list of names >from the Holocaust >from France.

Everyone must be aware that this list contains only 597 names (if I'm
not wrong) while there were around 76 000 Jews deported >from France.
There were also 85 000 non Jews deported >from France, as Resistants,
among whom were several Jewish resistants which were not recognized
as Jews before their departure. On the whole, 108 000 deportees >from
France (Jews and non Jews) didn't come back >from the nazi death camps.

Moreover, everyone must know that many of the information written on
the "Pages of Testimony" sent to Yad Vashem (which are the source of
the above listing) contain important errors. On these documents,
families had to put a date and place of death. But which date and
which place ? When and where did these deportees die ? Some families
put Drancy as the place of death, since it was the last place where
the deportees came from, and to put the date of departure >from France
as the date of death. Some others put various and fanciful places and
dates. This was obviously a distorsion of History but in these
disturbed days, nobody seemed to be aware of it.

Moreover, because of errors which would be too long to write here,
some families obtained wrong information concerning the place where
the convoy of their deportee was sent. It was the case for the convoy
#73 which left France on 15 May 1944 to the Baltic States. Because of
an error, many families obtained official information saying that
convoy was sent to Auschwitz. In 1994, several children of these
deportees still believed that their father went to Auschwitz.

After having surfed quickly through the above listing, I found, for
example, three deportees of the convoy #73 whose place of death is
wrong, since all the Jews of that transport died either in Kaunas
(Lithuania) or in Reval (today Tallinn) in Estonia, and nobody knows
who died here and who died there :

Jean Jacob didn't die "in Drancy (France)"
Michel Snovsky didn' die "in a Germany camp"
Lionel Almuly didn't die in an "Auchwitz camp"

In 1985, a French law was published saying that all the death
certificates of deportees >from France must say the place of arrival
as place of death, and the date of death must be (arbitrarily) five
days after the date de departure.
That's why most of the pages of testimonies contains datas which are
not the right ones.

The only real source of information concerning the French convoys of
Jews is the work of Serge Klarsfeld, "The memorial of the Jews
deported >from France", since it gathers information >from the genuine
listings which were drawn up in Drancy during the night before each
departure. That's why, if you want to be right, you have to compare
the information given in the "Pages of Testimonies" with the ones
given in Serge Klarsfeld's book.

--
Eve Line Blum-Cherchevsky
Besancon (France)
and also
Cercle de Genealogie Juive (International JGS in Paris)
http://www.genealoj.org


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Yad Vashem - list of names from France #general

Eve Line Blum <eve.line.blum@...>
 

Richard Wenig wrote about the site
http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/download/remembrance/bycountry/FRANCEENGLISH.pdf
which contains a list of names >from the Holocaust >from France.

Everyone must be aware that this list contains only 597 names (if I'm
not wrong) while there were around 76 000 Jews deported >from France.
There were also 85 000 non Jews deported >from France, as Resistants,
among whom were several Jewish resistants which were not recognized
as Jews before their departure. On the whole, 108 000 deportees >from
France (Jews and non Jews) didn't come back >from the nazi death camps.

Moreover, everyone must know that many of the information written on
the "Pages of Testimony" sent to Yad Vashem (which are the source of
the above listing) contain important errors. On these documents,
families had to put a date and place of death. But which date and
which place ? When and where did these deportees die ? Some families
put Drancy as the place of death, since it was the last place where
the deportees came from, and to put the date of departure >from France
as the date of death. Some others put various and fanciful places and
dates. This was obviously a distorsion of History but in these
disturbed days, nobody seemed to be aware of it.

Moreover, because of errors which would be too long to write here,
some families obtained wrong information concerning the place where
the convoy of their deportee was sent. It was the case for the convoy
#73 which left France on 15 May 1944 to the Baltic States. Because of
an error, many families obtained official information saying that
convoy was sent to Auschwitz. In 1994, several children of these
deportees still believed that their father went to Auschwitz.

After having surfed quickly through the above listing, I found, for
example, three deportees of the convoy #73 whose place of death is
wrong, since all the Jews of that transport died either in Kaunas
(Lithuania) or in Reval (today Tallinn) in Estonia, and nobody knows
who died here and who died there :

Jean Jacob didn't die "in Drancy (France)"
Michel Snovsky didn' die "in a Germany camp"
Lionel Almuly didn't die in an "Auchwitz camp"

In 1985, a French law was published saying that all the death
certificates of deportees >from France must say the place of arrival
as place of death, and the date of death must be (arbitrarily) five
days after the date de departure.
That's why most of the pages of testimonies contains datas which are
not the right ones.

The only real source of information concerning the French convoys of
Jews is the work of Serge Klarsfeld, "The memorial of the Jews
deported >from France", since it gathers information >from the genuine
listings which were drawn up in Drancy during the night before each
departure. That's why, if you want to be right, you have to compare
the information given in the "Pages of Testimonies" with the ones
given in Serge Klarsfeld's book.

--
Eve Line Blum-Cherchevsky
Besancon (France)
and also
Cercle de Genealogie Juive (International JGS in Paris)
http://www.genealoj.org


Re: Could Baruch be David? #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Wed, 12 May 2004 03:20:46 UTC, MarilWebb@aol.com opined:

While we are on names, I wonder if Baruch could be David? (I can't find my great-grandfather on any ship manifest and Baruch is the only name that comes close to when he might have come. Any thoughts?)

Thanks,
Marilyn Webb
Definitely, yes. A Baruch could be David. He could also be George, Chaim, or
Shmerl. I would not think the probability is high for any of these, but
stranger things have happened.

It is also possible, and more likely, that the man had two names, and used
each at a different time of his life, or under different circumstances.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better):
http://www.hashkedim.com
Please REPLACE the CAPITAL LETTERS with JGEN in order to send me email.
Please do not send me HTML-formatted messages. Please do not send me
attachments without coordinating with me beforehand.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Could Baruch be David? #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Wed, 12 May 2004 03:20:46 UTC, MarilWebb@aol.com opined:

While we are on names, I wonder if Baruch could be David? (I can't find my great-grandfather on any ship manifest and Baruch is the only name that comes close to when he might have come. Any thoughts?)

Thanks,
Marilyn Webb
Definitely, yes. A Baruch could be David. He could also be George, Chaim, or
Shmerl. I would not think the probability is high for any of these, but
stranger things have happened.

It is also possible, and more likely, that the man had two names, and used
each at a different time of his life, or under different circumstances.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better):
http://www.hashkedim.com
Please REPLACE the CAPITAL LETTERS with JGEN in order to send me email.
Please do not send me HTML-formatted messages. Please do not send me
attachments without coordinating with me beforehand.


Re: Could Baruch be David? #general

Harvey <harvey@...>
 

Marilyn Webb writes:

I wonder if Baruch could be David? > ---
As usual with these discussions... the starting point is that anyone with a
Yiddish/Hebrew/Jewish-sounding first name could have changed it to anything
eg my great-great aunt who changed Fanny to Charlotte! There does not need
to be any logic.

I can't see, however, why anyone would change Baruch to another Hebrew name-
David. More likely would be Benedict or Bernard or Barnett.

Harvey L Kaplan
Glasgow, Scotland

KAPLAN,FAYN,FEIN,FINE,BARSD,GRADMAN
- Ariogala, Josvainiai, Kedainiai, Krakes, Seta, Veliuona, Lithuania
FELMAN,MIL(L)ER,ROSENBLOOM - Kamenets-Podolsk, Shatava, Balyn, Ukraine
TROPP,STORCH - Kolbuszowa, Cmolas,Galicia
LINDERMAN,SCHLACKMAN -Plock,Poland


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Could Baruch be David? #general

Harvey <harvey@...>
 

Marilyn Webb writes:

I wonder if Baruch could be David? > ---
As usual with these discussions... the starting point is that anyone with a
Yiddish/Hebrew/Jewish-sounding first name could have changed it to anything
eg my great-great aunt who changed Fanny to Charlotte! There does not need
to be any logic.

I can't see, however, why anyone would change Baruch to another Hebrew name-
David. More likely would be Benedict or Bernard or Barnett.

Harvey L Kaplan
Glasgow, Scotland

KAPLAN,FAYN,FEIN,FINE,BARSD,GRADMAN
- Ariogala, Josvainiai, Kedainiai, Krakes, Seta, Veliuona, Lithuania
FELMAN,MIL(L)ER,ROSENBLOOM - Kamenets-Podolsk, Shatava, Balyn, Ukraine
TROPP,STORCH - Kolbuszowa, Cmolas,Galicia
LINDERMAN,SCHLACKMAN -Plock,Poland


Re: Could Baruch be David? #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

In article <5D1AEF66.5AD36F8F.026004C9@aol.com>, <MarilWebb@aol.com> wrote:

While we are on names, I wonder if Baruch could be David? (I can't find
my great-grandfather on any ship manifest and Baruch is the only name
that comes close to when he might have come. Any thoughts?)
There's no particular linguistic, phonetic or historical connection
between these two names. Of course it's entirely possible that Baruch
decided to change his name, and chose "David" simply because he liked
it.

Robert Israel israel@math.ubc.ca
Vancouver, BC, Canada


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Could Baruch be David? #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

In article <5D1AEF66.5AD36F8F.026004C9@aol.com>, <MarilWebb@aol.com> wrote:

While we are on names, I wonder if Baruch could be David? (I can't find
my great-grandfather on any ship manifest and Baruch is the only name
that comes close to when he might have come. Any thoughts?)
There's no particular linguistic, phonetic or historical connection
between these two names. Of course it's entirely possible that Baruch
decided to change his name, and chose "David" simply because he liked
it.

Robert Israel israel@math.ubc.ca
Vancouver, BC, Canada


Re: Jewish name for Isabelle? #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

In article <003f01c436a2$cbf4dac0$eda75052@udi4b3tuqi4slv>,
chaikin <chaikin@bezeqint.net> wrote:

I don't see any connection between Elisabeth and Isabelle, rather than a
Freudian mistake, made by a rabbi, whose mistake became fact :-))
See for instance

<http://www.geocities.com/edgarbook/names/i/isabel.html>
and
<http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/english/is/isabel.html>

Robert Israel israel@math.ubc.ca
Vancouver, BC, Canada


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Jewish name for Isabelle? #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

In article <003f01c436a2$cbf4dac0$eda75052@udi4b3tuqi4slv>,
chaikin <chaikin@bezeqint.net> wrote:

I don't see any connection between Elisabeth and Isabelle, rather than a
Freudian mistake, made by a rabbi, whose mistake became fact :-))
See for instance

<http://www.geocities.com/edgarbook/names/i/isabel.html>
and
<http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/english/is/isabel.html>

Robert Israel israel@math.ubc.ca
Vancouver, BC, Canada


FREIDMAN COHEN IVENER #general

Susan Morgan <res0rf15@...>
 

Shalom y'all!
I have just spent the weekend with my Grandfather and received some new
information. I found out that both of my Ggrandparents came as young
children >from Russia. My Ggrandfather came at the age of 12, and spent some
time at an orphan asylum before joining his siblings in Iowa. His name was
"John" IVENER, but of course, John was not his original name. however, my
Gfather does not know the original Jewish name.
My Ggrandmother's name was Ida FREIDMAN, and she came >from Russia at age 9.
she had 2 brothers, names, Harry and Louis.

COHEN
My grandmother's maiden name was Lillian COHEN, she had a sister named
Frances. they were both married to my grandfather (at different times)
Arthur "Archie" IVENER. Lillian and Frances' parents were Abe and Molly
COHEN. who I believe also came >from Russia.

I am very new at Genealogy, and I am also at a loss at understanding Jewish
customs, names,etc... because I was raised by adopted parents in a Christian
home.

I am researching this so I can pass down my heritage to my sons.

Any information would be helpful and very much appreciated!

Have a blessed week!

for His Glory,

Susan Morgan
sskb.morgan@verizon.net


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen FREIDMAN COHEN IVENER #general

Susan Morgan <res0rf15@...>
 

Shalom y'all!
I have just spent the weekend with my Grandfather and received some new
information. I found out that both of my Ggrandparents came as young
children >from Russia. My Ggrandfather came at the age of 12, and spent some
time at an orphan asylum before joining his siblings in Iowa. His name was
"John" IVENER, but of course, John was not his original name. however, my
Gfather does not know the original Jewish name.
My Ggrandmother's name was Ida FREIDMAN, and she came >from Russia at age 9.
she had 2 brothers, names, Harry and Louis.

COHEN
My grandmother's maiden name was Lillian COHEN, she had a sister named
Frances. they were both married to my grandfather (at different times)
Arthur "Archie" IVENER. Lillian and Frances' parents were Abe and Molly
COHEN. who I believe also came >from Russia.

I am very new at Genealogy, and I am also at a loss at understanding Jewish
customs, names,etc... because I was raised by adopted parents in a Christian
home.

I am researching this so I can pass down my heritage to my sons.

Any information would be helpful and very much appreciated!

Have a blessed week!

for His Glory,

Susan Morgan
sskb.morgan@verizon.net


Poland agrees to preserve Jewish cultural sites #general

m.steinberg@...
 

Hello All,

You can find a story in today's Haaretz, describing the signing of an
agreement between the United States and Poland to preserve Jewish
cultural sites remaining >from the World War II Nazi occupation of
Poland at the following site:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/426498.html

All the best,
Moshe Steinberg
Vancouver, Canada

WAGNER, ADLER, EDER--Jezierzany, Grabowce, Pilatkowce, Czarnokonce, Losiacz
STEINBERG, GLAZER, HUDES--Hrubieszow, Uchanie, Lublin, California, Iowa
SANG, NAGLER, FISCHER (FISZER), HELMAN--Zaleshchiki, Borszczow, New York City,
Israel
GRANIRER (GRANIERER), SALCMAN, ARONOWICZ, KRONENFELD, FUHRMAN, GOLDSCMIDT, SANDLER
Czernowitz, Israel, USA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Poland agrees to preserve Jewish cultural sites #general

m.steinberg@...
 

Hello All,

You can find a story in today's Haaretz, describing the signing of an
agreement between the United States and Poland to preserve Jewish
cultural sites remaining >from the World War II Nazi occupation of
Poland at the following site:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/426498.html

All the best,
Moshe Steinberg
Vancouver, Canada

WAGNER, ADLER, EDER--Jezierzany, Grabowce, Pilatkowce, Czarnokonce, Losiacz
STEINBERG, GLAZER, HUDES--Hrubieszow, Uchanie, Lublin, California, Iowa
SANG, NAGLER, FISCHER (FISZER), HELMAN--Zaleshchiki, Borszczow, New York City,
Israel
GRANIRER (GRANIERER), SALCMAN, ARONOWICZ, KRONENFELD, FUHRMAN, GOLDSCMIDT, SANDLER
Czernowitz, Israel, USA


is proof of death needed for someone born in 1873? #general

philafrum
 

Genners,

Thanks to the many people who shared their personal experiences with FOIA
(Freedom of Information Act) requests. The consensus was that most thinking
people wouldn't doubt that someone born in 1873 would no longer be alive. A
few people even suggested submitting a copy of a census report as
verification that the person was born way back then.

I spoke to someone in the FOIA office in Washington, DC earlier today, and
she indicated that proof of death would not be necessary in this case.

Thanks also to those who searched in the Florida and NYC death indexes to
provide me date of death and death certificate information for Sam Pack. My
feeling is that he died in NYC, not Florida, because the NYC information
more closely coincided with other previously known details.

Jewish Genners remain a very helpful bunch. I've long known that, but it's
always good to have one's hunches confirmed.

Evan Fishman
ebf2001@comcast.net
Cherry Hill, NJ

Searching:
MANDELSTEIN/MENDELSTEIN/MENDELSOHN (Starokonstantinov)
ADELMAN/EDELMAN (Krasilov) UDIN, BURSTEIN, WINARSKY (Kiev)
KALMANOWITZ, LISNITZER (Kamenets Podolskiy, Zaslaw)
FISHMAN/FISZMAN, FINKEL (Terespol) BURSTEIN (Radomyshl)
PRESSEISEN


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen is proof of death needed for someone born in 1873? #general

philafrum
 

Genners,

Thanks to the many people who shared their personal experiences with FOIA
(Freedom of Information Act) requests. The consensus was that most thinking
people wouldn't doubt that someone born in 1873 would no longer be alive. A
few people even suggested submitting a copy of a census report as
verification that the person was born way back then.

I spoke to someone in the FOIA office in Washington, DC earlier today, and
she indicated that proof of death would not be necessary in this case.

Thanks also to those who searched in the Florida and NYC death indexes to
provide me date of death and death certificate information for Sam Pack. My
feeling is that he died in NYC, not Florida, because the NYC information
more closely coincided with other previously known details.

Jewish Genners remain a very helpful bunch. I've long known that, but it's
always good to have one's hunches confirmed.

Evan Fishman
ebf2001@comcast.net
Cherry Hill, NJ

Searching:
MANDELSTEIN/MENDELSTEIN/MENDELSOHN (Starokonstantinov)
ADELMAN/EDELMAN (Krasilov) UDIN, BURSTEIN, WINARSKY (Kiev)
KALMANOWITZ, LISNITZER (Kamenets Podolskiy, Zaslaw)
FISHMAN/FISZMAN, FINKEL (Terespol) BURSTEIN (Radomyshl)
PRESSEISEN


Re: searching for death certificate of Sam PACK #general

Joy Rich <joyrichny@...>
 

Evan, I haven't yet come across any repositories in New York City that
require proof of death in order to get a naturalization record. If you tell
us which government agency told you that you need such proof, perhaps we can
give you some advice.

Joy Rich
Brooklyn, NY

JEWISHGEN Digest for Monday, May 10, 2004.
Subject: searching for death certificate of Sam PACK
From: "Evan Fishman" <ebf2001@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 01:13:50 -0400
X-Message-Number: 14

Genners,

I'd like to send a Freedom of Information Act request in order to get
naturalization information for a Sam(uel) PACK, but I need to provide
proof of his death.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: searching for death certificate of Sam PACK #general

Joy Rich <joyrichny@...>
 

Evan, I haven't yet come across any repositories in New York City that
require proof of death in order to get a naturalization record. If you tell
us which government agency told you that you need such proof, perhaps we can
give you some advice.

Joy Rich
Brooklyn, NY

JEWISHGEN Digest for Monday, May 10, 2004.
Subject: searching for death certificate of Sam PACK
From: "Evan Fishman" <ebf2001@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 01:13:50 -0400
X-Message-Number: 14

Genners,

I'd like to send a Freedom of Information Act request in order to get
naturalization information for a Sam(uel) PACK, but I need to provide
proof of his death.