[Moderator: As a one time commercial information]

For those who speak Hungarian at
http://www.vatera.hu/index.php
you will find a Hungarian auction site. Many times they feature interesting Jewish memorabilia items and WW2 documents. Worth of a visit.

Note: I have no commercial interest in or relationship to this site

Regards
Tom
--
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil

Dear Members,

Thanks to all those who replied. The general
consensus was that this town was Kibart Lithuania
which did have a school in Eydtkuhnen across the
border in the German ruled Prussia. And now from
reading about it, all the rest of my families notes
relating to there stay at this location all match
to every detail. Thank you everyone for your replies.
The notes were originally given in broken English and
Yiddish so it would have been easy to write down Kubat
for Kibart. And in one place Godonya for Kedainiai.

Sincerely,
Meir Yohanah

--- meir yohanah <meir320@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi, Genners,

I have read the JewishGen responses to this initial
query as well as receiving a few privately. I see a
variation in the forms we are each reviewing.

Could someone explain the difference between the
Certificate of Naturalization and the Certificate of
Citizenship? Perhaps the likelyhood of a photograph
was determined, in part, by which document one
received?

Many thanks,
Shellie Wiener
San Francisco, CA

[Moderator: As a one time commercial information]

For those who speak Hungarian at
http://www.vatera.hu/index.php
you will find a Hungarian auction site. Many times they feature interesting Jewish memorabilia items and WW2 documents. Worth of a visit.

Note: I have no commercial interest in or relationship to this site

Regards
Tom
--
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil

Dear Members,

Thanks to all those who replied. The general
consensus was that this town was Kibart Lithuania
which did have a school in Eydtkuhnen across the
border in the German ruled Prussia. And now from
reading about it, all the rest of my families notes
relating to there stay at this location all match
to every detail. Thank you everyone for your replies.
The notes were originally given in broken English and
Yiddish so it would have been easy to write down Kubat
for Kibart. And in one place Godonya for Kedainiai.

Sincerely,
Meir Yohanah

--- meir yohanah <meir320@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi, Genners,

I have read the JewishGen responses to this initial
query as well as receiving a few privately. I see a
variation in the forms we are each reviewing.

Could someone explain the difference between the
Certificate of Naturalization and the Certificate of
Citizenship? Perhaps the likelyhood of a photograph
was determined, in part, by which document one
received?

Many thanks,
Shellie Wiener
San Francisco, CA

In article <6.2.0.14.2.20050126005720.04e5f610@pop.mts.net>,
Susana Leistner Bloch <bloch@mts.net> wrote:

In my case however, speaking fluently in Yiddish with my mother,
there was no way the word "Schuerze[/Schirtze" [German for shirt] could
be confused with the word "hemd" [Yiddish for shirt ].At least this is
how we Galicianers called a shirt.

My German dictionary confirms that Hemd is the German word for shirt and
that Schuerze is apron.

Sue Clamp

--
Sue Clamp
Cambridgeshire, UK.
Researching: ROSENBERG/ROZENBERG, SKOWRONEK, HERSZENKRUG,
KRIEGSMANN/KRIGSMAN/KRYKSMAN, CHENCINER and DRUSZN/DROZEN/DROSSEN, Warsaw.
Getting round to (eventually!): BLEETMAN, Odessa, GOLDSTEIN and SALAMONSKI.

Remove .cut.invalid >from email address to reply.

In article <6.2.0.14.2.20050126005720.04e5f610@pop.mts.net>,
Susana Leistner Bloch <bloch@mts.net> wrote:

In my case however, speaking fluently in Yiddish with my mother,
there was no way the word "Schuerze[/Schirtze" [German for shirt] could
be confused with the word "hemd" [Yiddish for shirt ].At least this is
how we Galicianers called a shirt.

My German dictionary confirms that Hemd is the German word for shirt and
that Schuerze is apron.

Sue Clamp

--
Sue Clamp
Cambridgeshire, UK.
Researching: ROSENBERG/ROZENBERG, SKOWRONEK, HERSZENKRUG,
KRIEGSMANN/KRIGSMAN/KRYKSMAN, CHENCINER and DRUSZN/DROZEN/DROSSEN, Warsaw.
Getting round to (eventually!): BLEETMAN, Odessa, GOLDSTEIN and SALAMONSKI.

Remove .cut.invalid >from email address to reply.

This thread started with my message about my mother describing a
black apron worn by her grandmother. It is possible that German
"schwartz/schwartze" and "Schuerze[n]/Schirtze[n] is confused by
some people. In my case however, speaking fluently in Yiddish with
my mother,
there was no way the word "Schuerze[/Schirtze" [German for shirt]
could be confused with the word "hemd" [Yiddish for shirt ].At
least this is how we Galicianers called a shirt.
It makes me think fondly of my paternal aunt who was a Galicianer
living in Berlin. She must have sounded very strange when she used
the word "hemd" for a shirt <grin>. She spoke fluent German which
she continued to speak when she emigrated to Brazil. I remember
clearly that she refused to speak in Yiddish with us as she wanted
to "educate" us...But I also clearly remember her saying she had to
wash my uncle's "hemde" [shirts]... Obviously you can take the
Galicianer out of Galicia but you cannot take Galicia out of the
Galicianer <say I grinning proudly>

Dear Susana,

I don't follow your comment about your aunt living in Berlin. She
would not have sounded the least bit strange when she used the word
"Hemd" for shirt in Berlin. Hemd is in fact the absolutely standard
German word for shirt (check any dictionary). In fact it is so
standard that I remembered it simply >from learning German in school
more than 50 years ago. So I'm puzzled by your emphasis on Hemd as
being not German but only Yiddish! " (Perhaps your Galizianer
ancestors lived in the Austrian, i.e. German-speaking, part of
Galicia?).

As for Schuerze, that is the standard word German word for apron. I
didn't know this word, but before checking the dictionary, I asked
my husband (who hasn't spoken German since age six, but has retained
it very well) what the word Schuerze meant to him. His immediate
reply was "I don't recall exactly , but I think it's got something
to do with the kitchen." That's about as neat a definition of
"apron" (or perhaps of "women's place") as one could find!

Judith Romney Wegner

This thread started with my message about my mother describing a
black apron worn by her grandmother. It is possible that German
"schwartz/schwartze" and "Schuerze[n]/Schirtze[n] is confused by
some people. In my case however, speaking fluently in Yiddish with
my mother,
there was no way the word "Schuerze[/Schirtze" [German for shirt]
could be confused with the word "hemd" [Yiddish for shirt ].At
least this is how we Galicianers called a shirt.
It makes me think fondly of my paternal aunt who was a Galicianer
living in Berlin. She must have sounded very strange when she used
the word "hemd" for a shirt <grin>. She spoke fluent German which
she continued to speak when she emigrated to Brazil. I remember
clearly that she refused to speak in Yiddish with us as she wanted
to "educate" us...But I also clearly remember her saying she had to
wash my uncle's "hemde" [shirts]... Obviously you can take the
Galicianer out of Galicia but you cannot take Galicia out of the
Galicianer <say I grinning proudly>

Dear Susana,

I don't follow your comment about your aunt living in Berlin. She
would not have sounded the least bit strange when she used the word
"Hemd" for shirt in Berlin. Hemd is in fact the absolutely standard
German word for shirt (check any dictionary). In fact it is so
standard that I remembered it simply >from learning German in school
more than 50 years ago. So I'm puzzled by your emphasis on Hemd as
being not German but only Yiddish! " (Perhaps your Galizianer
ancestors lived in the Austrian, i.e. German-speaking, part of
Galicia?).

As for Schuerze, that is the standard word German word for apron. I
didn't know this word, but before checking the dictionary, I asked
my husband (who hasn't spoken German since age six, but has retained
it very well) what the word Schuerze meant to him. His immediate
reply was "I don't recall exactly , but I think it's got something
to do with the kitchen." That's about as neat a definition of
"apron" (or perhaps of "women's place") as one could find!

Judith Romney Wegner

The USCIS site at http://uscis.gov/graphics/aboutus/history/Max/Certif.html
says "Beginning in 1929, certificates also included a photograph of the new
citizen."

Joy Rich
Brooklyn, NY

Dear Genners,
I have located the unmarked grave of the stillborn child of my gf and his
first wife, but have had no success locating the child's death certificate.
The event occurred in Sept. 1918 in New York City, possibly in the
(Bronx)Lebanon Hospital. (The wife died there two days later.) I have
checked the NYC Municipal Archives and various databases, using variants of
the last name, and realizing that there probably would be no first name.
I've also checked with the cemetery for possible information.

Does anyone have experience with this predicament -- and a strategy to
resolve it? Thanks in advance for any help.

Best wishes,
Lisa Dashman
Croton-on-Hudson, NY

The USCIS site at http://uscis.gov/graphics/aboutus/history/Max/Certif.html
says "Beginning in 1929, certificates also included a photograph of the new
citizen."

Joy Rich
Brooklyn, NY

Dear Genners,
I have located the unmarked grave of the stillborn child of my gf and his
first wife, but have had no success locating the child's death certificate.
The event occurred in Sept. 1918 in New York City, possibly in the
(Bronx)Lebanon Hospital. (The wife died there two days later.) I have
checked the NYC Municipal Archives and various databases, using variants of
the last name, and realizing that there probably would be no first name.
I've also checked with the cemetery for possible information.

Does anyone have experience with this predicament -- and a strategy to
resolve it? Thanks in advance for any help.

Best wishes,
Lisa Dashman
Croton-on-Hudson, NY

I know nothing about the Khuts or their fertility; the elevated Jewish
fecundity was not a factor of contraception as you suggest, but of a
higher survival
level resulting >from better sanitary and medical conditions as Jews moved

from villages to towns and cities with the availability of doctors and better

trained midwives. I know nothing about the fecundity of Lithuanian
Jews or their
use of contraception as you suggest. My greatgrandfather, rabbi in Fuerth,
fathered sixteen children.

Michael Bernet, New York

Dear Michael,

Once again, you seem to have missed my point, which was that the
numbers depended more on the time period involved than on the
ethnicity of the performers. That was the main factor underpinning
my theory that the largest of the "ethnic-Jewish" groups living in
England today are the biological descendants (perhaps no longer
practicing Judaism, of course) of Anglo-Dutch Ashkenazi Jews who
emigrated >from Holland to England around 1800 and produced enormous
families in London. My argument was comparing the size of families
in the first half of the 18th century (at a time when most Jews
living in London were certainly descended >from Dutch Ashkenazim) with
the smaller (though still substantial by today's standards) numbers
of offspring of East European Jews who reproduced after their arrival
in England >from about 1880 on.

Since we are in the same age-group, I'm sure your German-Jewish ggf's
prodigious exploits (kol hakavod!) certainly date, like those of my
Anglo-Dutch-Jewish greatgrandfather -- to before 1880, so there's no
surprise there. However, I am happy to concede the victory to your
ancestor, as mine fathered only eleven (at least to speak of, who
really knows.....?)

By the way: I'd love to know whether your ggf was married more than
once, or whether the accolade should really go to your
great-grandmother of blessed memory.)

Sincerely,

Judith Romney Wegner

I know nothing about the Khuts or their fertility; the elevated Jewish
fecundity was not a factor of contraception as you suggest, but of a
higher survival
level resulting >from better sanitary and medical conditions as Jews moved

from villages to towns and cities with the availability of doctors and better

trained midwives. I know nothing about the fecundity of Lithuanian
Jews or their
use of contraception as you suggest. My greatgrandfather, rabbi in Fuerth,
fathered sixteen children.

Michael Bernet, New York

Dear Michael,

Once again, you seem to have missed my point, which was that the
numbers depended more on the time period involved than on the
ethnicity of the performers. That was the main factor underpinning
my theory that the largest of the "ethnic-Jewish" groups living in
England today are the biological descendants (perhaps no longer
practicing Judaism, of course) of Anglo-Dutch Ashkenazi Jews who
emigrated >from Holland to England around 1800 and produced enormous
families in London. My argument was comparing the size of families
in the first half of the 18th century (at a time when most Jews
living in London were certainly descended >from Dutch Ashkenazim) with
the smaller (though still substantial by today's standards) numbers
of offspring of East European Jews who reproduced after their arrival
in England >from about 1880 on.

Since we are in the same age-group, I'm sure your German-Jewish ggf's
prodigious exploits (kol hakavod!) certainly date, like those of my
Anglo-Dutch-Jewish greatgrandfather -- to before 1880, so there's no
surprise there. However, I am happy to concede the victory to your
ancestor, as mine fathered only eleven (at least to speak of, who
really knows.....?)

By the way: I'd love to know whether your ggf was married more than
once, or whether the accolade should really go to your
great-grandmother of blessed memory.)

Sincerely,

Judith Romney Wegner

I have found my great-grandmother and her five youngest children on the
manifest of the ship "England", sailing >from Liverpool and arriving in New
York City on 1 Noiv 1888.

The person who made out the manifest had clear handwriting.

The two oldest children--Rifke and Frieda--were "spinsters" at ages 14 and
12. Question 1: In 1888, was iit common in England to use the term spinster
for girls this young?

The next child was "Amale", age 10, who is my great-aunt; Mollie. Question
2: Is it more likely that Amale was her name in Roumania or that the
registrar misunderstood my great-grandmother?

Amale was listed as "M" for male. The next child on the list is "Siisie"
(my grandfather Sigmund, who was called "Zissie"), age 8, listed as "F" for
female. Question 3: How do you suppose these errors occurred?

The family traveled :"main deck", not steerage (there were only two classes
of passengers), so I assume they should have been given some attention.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.
Josephine Rosenblum;, Cincinnati, OH

I have found my great-grandmother and her five youngest children on the
manifest of the ship "England", sailing >from Liverpool and arriving in New
York City on 1 Noiv 1888.

The person who made out the manifest had clear handwriting.

The two oldest children--Rifke and Frieda--were "spinsters" at ages 14 and
12. Question 1: In 1888, was iit common in England to use the term spinster
for girls this young?

The next child was "Amale", age 10, who is my great-aunt; Mollie. Question
2: Is it more likely that Amale was her name in Roumania or that the
registrar misunderstood my great-grandmother?

Amale was listed as "M" for male. The next child on the list is "Siisie"
(my grandfather Sigmund, who was called "Zissie"), age 8, listed as "F" for
female. Question 3: How do you suppose these errors occurred?

The family traveled :"main deck", not steerage (there were only two classes
of passengers), so I assume they should have been given some attention.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.
Josephine Rosenblum;, Cincinnati, OH

Dear Friends,

A couple of years ago, I posted on H-SIG that I was looking for any
information that could be obtained on the Schwartz or Schmulovitz families from
Scranton; in particular, I was looking for information on Morris Schwartz,
known to family as “Mosie”, who had married his cousin Eva Friedman, and moved to
Boston to join her family’s business, New England Stationery Company.

I received a post >from Douglas Cohen, who told me that he didn’t know
anybody >from Scranton, but that he knew who Eva Friedman was, and where she fit
into his family. If Morris and Eva were first cousins, then Doug and I would be
third cousins. We were both pretty pleased with what we had figured out, but it
was still only family lore and assumption that the relationship between Morris
and Eva was that of first cousins.

I knew that my GGF, Josef Schwartz, >from Scranton, Pa.( the father of my
grandmother, Rose Schwartz Frischman and Mosie, her brother) had moved
to Palestine in the early 1920s to spend his last few years there, and
that he was buried on Har Hazeitim (the mount of Olives). When I traveled
to Israel this past summer I specifically wanted to find my GGF's
matzeiva. Now since we knew that Eva's grandfather's name was Yitzchok
Schwartz, we expected his matzeiva to read “Yosef ben Yitchak” - but
the inscription instead read “Yosef ben Boruch”!

So our assumption at this point is that Yitzchok and Boruch were
brothers. But there's a problem with that idea too: Doug I have traced
four branches of the family as follows:

1. Doug's mom is Shirlee Blum, whose mother was Bessie Schwartz, a"h,
the daughter of Shmuel Schwartz, a"h, the son of Toba and Isaac Schwartz
a"h, Toba's parents being Shmuel and Rochel Shmulevitz, a"h.

2. Mindy, married to Mark Mitchell who's dad was Warren Schwartz,
a"h, who was the son of Morris (Mosie) Schwartz, a"h, who was married
to Eva Friedman, a"h. Mosie's father was Josef Schwartz,a"h and Eva's
Mother was Sarah Schwartz, a"h.

2a. Jo-anne Greenblatt also came >from that link, her mother Bella being
the sister of Eva.

3. My father is Robert Frischman, whose mother was Rose Schwartz,a"h,
whose father was Josef Schwartz, who passed away in 1931 and whose
father's name was Boruch.

4. Then finally, we have Elsa Banen the daughter of Ruth Schwartz
whose father was Elias (Eddie) Schwartz.

Now, let's get back to our mystery. The above we are certain about.
We are also certain that Shmuel (Doug's GGF), Sarah (Mindy's GGM) and
Joannie's grandmother, and Eddie (Elsa's GF) were siblings. It was also
"known" throughout the different branches of the family that Mosie
married his cousin Eva.

Perhaps the most logical solution to the mystery, is that Yitzchok
Schwartz and Boruch Schwartz were brothers. But there's a problem: My
father's sister, Thelma (Toba) was born the same year that Toba Schwartz
(Yitzchok's wife) passed away, 1913. It is highly unlikely that my
grandfather, a"h would have named his daughter after his great uncle's
wife, not even mishpocho.

It has also been suggested that perhaps Yitzchok and Boruch were the same
people, but that clearly is not the case as there are records with Kollel
Shomrei Hachomos clearly showing his name and his father's name.

We think, but we’re not sure, that they came >from Michalovce, Slovakia,
but we can’t get any documentation >from there. They never
immigrated – it was the next generation that immigrated; but that was
pre-1900, and the naturalization documents are pretty sketchy. We haven’t
been able to find manifests – but they would also be pretty sketchy at
that early date.

Two other things that I want to mention: one, that I know that my
grandparent's marriage was arranged by my two sets of great-grandparents,
Joe and Resi Schwartz and Shimshon Shmiel and Miriam Frischman, and that
they two, the Frischman's and Schwartz's might ALSO have been cousins.
The Frischman's were >from Beregszasz, not all that far >from Michalovce,
settled in NYC (Shimshon Shmiel had a Deli on Ave C in the lower east
side) and were always close with the Schwartz's who settled in Scranton,
around the turn of the last century, and second, my father remembers
receiving letters >from Romania until theWWII. When he asked his parents
who they were from, he was told, ">from cousins"- but were they Frischman
cousins or Schwartz cousins.

Anybody got any good ideas??

Yehuda Frischman, Los Angeles California

Dear Friends,

A couple of years ago, I posted on H-SIG that I was looking for any
information that could be obtained on the Schwartz or Schmulovitz families from
Scranton; in particular, I was looking for information on Morris Schwartz,
known to family as “Mosie”, who had married his cousin Eva Friedman, and moved to
Boston to join her family’s business, New England Stationery Company.

I received a post >from Douglas Cohen, who told me that he didn’t know
anybody >from Scranton, but that he knew who Eva Friedman was, and where she fit
into his family. If Morris and Eva were first cousins, then Doug and I would be
third cousins. We were both pretty pleased with what we had figured out, but it
was still only family lore and assumption that the relationship between Morris
and Eva was that of first cousins.

I knew that my GGF, Josef Schwartz, >from Scranton, Pa.( the father of my
grandmother, Rose Schwartz Frischman and Mosie, her brother) had moved
to Palestine in the early 1920s to spend his last few years there, and
that he was buried on Har Hazeitim (the mount of Olives). When I traveled
to Israel this past summer I specifically wanted to find my GGF's
matzeiva. Now since we knew that Eva's grandfather's name was Yitzchok
Schwartz, we expected his matzeiva to read “Yosef ben Yitchak” - but
the inscription instead read “Yosef ben Boruch”!

So our assumption at this point is that Yitzchok and Boruch were
brothers. But there's a problem with that idea too: Doug I have traced
four branches of the family as follows:

1. Doug's mom is Shirlee Blum, whose mother was Bessie Schwartz, a"h,
the daughter of Shmuel Schwartz, a"h, the son of Toba and Isaac Schwartz
a"h, Toba's parents being Shmuel and Rochel Shmulevitz, a"h.

2. Mindy, married to Mark Mitchell who's dad was Warren Schwartz,
a"h, who was the son of Morris (Mosie) Schwartz, a"h, who was married
to Eva Friedman, a"h. Mosie's father was Josef Schwartz,a"h and Eva's
Mother was Sarah Schwartz, a"h.

2a. Jo-anne Greenblatt also came >from that link, her mother Bella being
the sister of Eva.

3. My father is Robert Frischman, whose mother was Rose Schwartz,a"h,
whose father was Josef Schwartz, who passed away in 1931 and whose
father's name was Boruch.

4. Then finally, we have Elsa Banen the daughter of Ruth Schwartz
whose father was Elias (Eddie) Schwartz.

Now, let's get back to our mystery. The above we are certain about.
We are also certain that Shmuel (Doug's GGF), Sarah (Mindy's GGM) and
Joannie's grandmother, and Eddie (Elsa's GF) were siblings. It was also
"known" throughout the different branches of the family that Mosie
married his cousin Eva.

Perhaps the most logical solution to the mystery, is that Yitzchok
Schwartz and Boruch Schwartz were brothers. But there's a problem: My
father's sister, Thelma (Toba) was born the same year that Toba Schwartz
(Yitzchok's wife) passed away, 1913. It is highly unlikely that my
grandfather, a"h would have named his daughter after his great uncle's
wife, not even mishpocho.

It has also been suggested that perhaps Yitzchok and Boruch were the same
people, but that clearly is not the case as there are records with Kollel
Shomrei Hachomos clearly showing his name and his father's name.

We think, but we’re not sure, that they came >from Michalovce, Slovakia,
but we can’t get any documentation >from there. They never
immigrated – it was the next generation that immigrated; but that was
pre-1900, and the naturalization documents are pretty sketchy. We haven’t
been able to find manifests – but they would also be pretty sketchy at
that early date.

Two other things that I want to mention: one, that I know that my
grandparent's marriage was arranged by my two sets of great-grandparents,
Joe and Resi Schwartz and Shimshon Shmiel and Miriam Frischman, and that
they two, the Frischman's and Schwartz's might ALSO have been cousins.
The Frischman's were >from Beregszasz, not all that far >from Michalovce,
settled in NYC (Shimshon Shmiel had a Deli on Ave C in the lower east
side) and were always close with the Schwartz's who settled in Scranton,
around the turn of the last century, and second, my father remembers
receiving letters >from Romania until theWWII. When he asked his parents
who they were from, he was told, ">from cousins"- but were they Frischman
cousins or Schwartz cousins.

Anybody got any good ideas??

Yehuda Frischman, Los Angeles California