Date   

Genealogy and Mixed Marriage #general

Beryl. B <balden@...>
 

I posed a very relevant, important message re
"Genealogy and Mixed Marriage" and have been
following the replies over the past few days.

I have to admit that I am shocked at some of the
reaction of which I will not go into detail. Everything
that has until now been written has fully covered the
subject.

I hope the Moderator will now decide to close this
thread.

Beryl Baleson
Israel.


Looking for Martin Eagle #general

arie meir
 

Hi to all of you

If somebody knows how I can reach Martin Eagle (I hope the name is
pronounced correctly ), who was a survivor >from Przemysl please contact me

Arieh Mayer

Haifa Israel

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Genealogy and Mixed Marriage #general

Beryl. B <balden@...>
 

I posed a very relevant, important message re
"Genealogy and Mixed Marriage" and have been
following the replies over the past few days.

I have to admit that I am shocked at some of the
reaction of which I will not go into detail. Everything
that has until now been written has fully covered the
subject.

I hope the Moderator will now decide to close this
thread.

Beryl Baleson
Israel.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Looking for Martin Eagle #general

arie meir
 

Hi to all of you

If somebody knows how I can reach Martin Eagle (I hope the name is
pronounced correctly ), who was a survivor >from Przemysl please contact me

Arieh Mayer

Haifa Israel

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately.


Re: Genealogy and Mixed Marriages: Should Dead Limbs be Pruned #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

In article < 1e5.3513671c.2f386ac5@aol.com >, < PJL427@aol.com > wrote:

Finally, this weekend, I was visiting on the phone with a former tenant last
night. He is a very religious man. He told me that his son >from a first
marriage married out of the faith and he had said Kaddish for him. So, there
are clearly those people who take intermarriage and apostasy very seriously.
Since Orthodoxy has increased by 60% in the last decade, (>from 10% to
16%, this is probably going to be much more common among Jews again) despite
large numbers of conversions to Judaism and as a result of higher birth rates
and higher retention among orthodox Jews, this will probably be the norm again
in the Jewish community in the not too distant future.
I suspect the moderators might consider this point off-topic, but I
don't think one should imply that non-Orthodox Jews (and in
particular the Conservative movement)_don't_ take intermarriage
and apostasy very seriously. Intermarriage is a social reality
in nearly all Jewish communities outside Israel, and must be
dealt with in some way. There is hardly a family, including those
of people who attend Orthodox synagogues, that doesn't have a
near or distant relative who married out. By the way, the idea
of saying Kaddish or sitting Shiva for a person who marries out
is based on a mistake (see e.g.
< http://www1.emax.ca/mj_ht_arch/v35/mj_v35i75.html#CZZ >).
I think very few Orthodox people in North America would actually
do so nowadays, although they might threaten to do it. In fact
they generally try, as much as possible, to keep in contact with
their family member, while not hiding the fact that they disapprove
of the marriage.

Robert Israel
israel@math.ubc.ca
Vancouver, BC, Canada

MODERATOR NOTE: Religious issues are (indeed) considered as off-topic
to this list unless they are relevant to genealogy. This thread drifted
from genealogy to religious issues. Please continue privately.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Genealogy and Mixed Marriages: Should Dead Limbs be Pruned #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

In article < 1e5.3513671c.2f386ac5@aol.com >, < PJL427@aol.com > wrote:

Finally, this weekend, I was visiting on the phone with a former tenant last
night. He is a very religious man. He told me that his son >from a first
marriage married out of the faith and he had said Kaddish for him. So, there
are clearly those people who take intermarriage and apostasy very seriously.
Since Orthodoxy has increased by 60% in the last decade, (>from 10% to
16%, this is probably going to be much more common among Jews again) despite
large numbers of conversions to Judaism and as a result of higher birth rates
and higher retention among orthodox Jews, this will probably be the norm again
in the Jewish community in the not too distant future.
I suspect the moderators might consider this point off-topic, but I
don't think one should imply that non-Orthodox Jews (and in
particular the Conservative movement)_don't_ take intermarriage
and apostasy very seriously. Intermarriage is a social reality
in nearly all Jewish communities outside Israel, and must be
dealt with in some way. There is hardly a family, including those
of people who attend Orthodox synagogues, that doesn't have a
near or distant relative who married out. By the way, the idea
of saying Kaddish or sitting Shiva for a person who marries out
is based on a mistake (see e.g.
< http://www1.emax.ca/mj_ht_arch/v35/mj_v35i75.html#CZZ >).
I think very few Orthodox people in North America would actually
do so nowadays, although they might threaten to do it. In fact
they generally try, as much as possible, to keep in contact with
their family member, while not hiding the fact that they disapprove
of the marriage.

Robert Israel
israel@math.ubc.ca
Vancouver, BC, Canada

MODERATOR NOTE: Religious issues are (indeed) considered as off-topic
to this list unless they are relevant to genealogy. This thread drifted
from genealogy to religious issues. Please continue privately.


Re: Given name Monya #general

Mervyn Doobov <mdoobov@...>
 

anitac47@optonline.net (ac) wrote:

*** In my great uncle's family of 13 (at least) there is a Menya
(girl) and a Monya (boy). I checked the given name database but
had no luck for the male name Monya/Manya/Manye. Menya is a girl's
name. Can anyone confirm Monya or its variant as a male name?
Thanks.
My Uncle Minya was actually Menashe. The family came originally >from
the Ukraine.

Interestingly, he 'anglicised' his name to Emanuel but was called Ted
by the residents of Charters Towers, Qld, where he resided for a few
years. They assumed the initial E to be for Edward.

--
Mervyn Doobov,
Jerusalem, Israel.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Given name Monya #general

Mervyn Doobov <mdoobov@...>
 

anitac47@optonline.net (ac) wrote:

*** In my great uncle's family of 13 (at least) there is a Menya
(girl) and a Monya (boy). I checked the given name database but
had no luck for the male name Monya/Manya/Manye. Menya is a girl's
name. Can anyone confirm Monya or its variant as a male name?
Thanks.
My Uncle Minya was actually Menashe. The family came originally >from
the Ukraine.

Interestingly, he 'anglicised' his name to Emanuel but was called Ted
by the residents of Charters Towers, Qld, where he resided for a few
years. They assumed the initial E to be for Edward.

--
Mervyn Doobov,
Jerusalem, Israel.


Re: Adoption and family trees #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:44:21 UTC, msalb@lsslawyers.com (S. Micah Salb)
opined:

Oh, I did understand that you were talking about the more important and more
interesting family aspect of adoptive families.

But I think the fact that there is a technical hurdle plays a role in the
discussion. For example, it suggests that this is a newer problem which has
not yet been addressed by the software makers (who have, after all, been
thinking about genealogy needs for some time). Also, if it is not easily
accomplished via the software that many of us use, then many of us are less
likely to include these "branches" for our inability to do so easily.


-Micah

And assuming the answer is "Yes," how do you tell your genealogy program
that she has a Mother and a Father and a Birthmother and a Birthfather?
I would have no problem in doing this in the genealogy program that I use,
called GenealogyJ. If your software is so inflexible that you can't perhaps
you should consider switching. To avoid accusations that I am shilling for
this program, I won't describe it further, but will invite interested
persons to communicate with me privately to discuss it. Do *not* use your
Reply function to do this, but see the directions in my signature block
below.

The method described just below sounds very clumsy to me, by the way; not
well planned.

-Micah
---------------------------
That is a technical hurdle. I know my family tree maker program has a
lineage
box where you can determine whether the relationship is natural, adopted,
stepchild, etc. I have never used it, so I don't know how it plays out.
Perhaps
other programs have other ways.

I was not discussing the addition to a family tree of a birthparent
"branch"
in terms of how a computer program would handle it. I was talking about
how
families and people would handle it.

B Miller,
Bklyn
CHEIFETZ, STRUMPF, KOREN
--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Adoption and family trees #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:44:21 UTC, msalb@lsslawyers.com (S. Micah Salb)
opined:

Oh, I did understand that you were talking about the more important and more
interesting family aspect of adoptive families.

But I think the fact that there is a technical hurdle plays a role in the
discussion. For example, it suggests that this is a newer problem which has
not yet been addressed by the software makers (who have, after all, been
thinking about genealogy needs for some time). Also, if it is not easily
accomplished via the software that many of us use, then many of us are less
likely to include these "branches" for our inability to do so easily.


-Micah

And assuming the answer is "Yes," how do you tell your genealogy program
that she has a Mother and a Father and a Birthmother and a Birthfather?
I would have no problem in doing this in the genealogy program that I use,
called GenealogyJ. If your software is so inflexible that you can't perhaps
you should consider switching. To avoid accusations that I am shilling for
this program, I won't describe it further, but will invite interested
persons to communicate with me privately to discuss it. Do *not* use your
Reply function to do this, but see the directions in my signature block
below.

The method described just below sounds very clumsy to me, by the way; not
well planned.

-Micah
---------------------------
That is a technical hurdle. I know my family tree maker program has a
lineage
box where you can determine whether the relationship is natural, adopted,
stepchild, etc. I have never used it, so I don't know how it plays out.
Perhaps
other programs have other ways.

I was not discussing the addition to a family tree of a birthparent
"branch"
in terms of how a computer program would handle it. I was talking about
how
families and people would handle it.

B Miller,
Bklyn
CHEIFETZ, STRUMPF, KOREN
--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.


Adaption, second parents #general

Lothar Hlavensky <lothar@...>
 

Dear Genners

And assuming the answer is "Yes," how do you tell your genealogy
program that she has a Mother and a Father and a Birthmother and a
Birthfather?

-Micah
I use PAF5 >from the Mormons www.familysearch.org and it can handle
different parents


regards

Lothar (Hlavensky)
--

Schlesien:BAUMANN;BIELECK;DIEN;GRALLA;GNERLICH;LOCKELT;KRUSCH;KUSCHEL;
NAWRATH;PIECZKO;PRIESNITZ;SALWIG;SCHMIDT;SMACZNY;WEIDLER;WUDTKE;ZIMMERMA
NN;BOHMEN:CAKRTOVE;HLAVENSKY;KALUSKOVE;NECADOVY;SCHLAMBOR;SINA;WIRT/
http://www.genealogy.hlavensky.de

MODERATOR NOTE: Computer software issues are better fitted to the
soc.genealogy.computing newsgroup. We allow a few comments to the original
message, but further discussion on this topic is regarded as off-topic to
this list and should be done privately.


Re: Adoption and family trees #general

Don and Debby Painter <painter@...>
 

< "S. Micah Salb" wrote: And assuming the answer is "Yes," how do you
tell your genealogy program that she has a Mother and a Father and
a Birthmother and a Birthfather? >

The Family Tree maker program does allow for recording adoptive and
natural parents well as including any step-parents within these
relationships.

MODERATOR NOTE: Computer software issues are better fitted to the
soc.genealogy.computing newsgroup. We allow a few comments to the original
message, but further discussion on this topic is regarded as off-topic to
this list and should be done privately.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Adaption, second parents #general

Lothar Hlavensky <lothar@...>
 

Dear Genners

And assuming the answer is "Yes," how do you tell your genealogy
program that she has a Mother and a Father and a Birthmother and a
Birthfather?

-Micah
I use PAF5 >from the Mormons www.familysearch.org and it can handle
different parents


regards

Lothar (Hlavensky)
--

Schlesien:BAUMANN;BIELECK;DIEN;GRALLA;GNERLICH;LOCKELT;KRUSCH;KUSCHEL;
NAWRATH;PIECZKO;PRIESNITZ;SALWIG;SCHMIDT;SMACZNY;WEIDLER;WUDTKE;ZIMMERMA
NN;BOHMEN:CAKRTOVE;HLAVENSKY;KALUSKOVE;NECADOVY;SCHLAMBOR;SINA;WIRT/
http://www.genealogy.hlavensky.de

MODERATOR NOTE: Computer software issues are better fitted to the
soc.genealogy.computing newsgroup. We allow a few comments to the original
message, but further discussion on this topic is regarded as off-topic to
this list and should be done privately.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Adoption and family trees #general

Don and Debby Painter <painter@...>
 

< "S. Micah Salb" wrote: And assuming the answer is "Yes," how do you
tell your genealogy program that she has a Mother and a Father and
a Birthmother and a Birthfather? >

The Family Tree maker program does allow for recording adoptive and
natural parents well as including any step-parents within these
relationships.

MODERATOR NOTE: Computer software issues are better fitted to the
soc.genealogy.computing newsgroup. We allow a few comments to the original
message, but further discussion on this topic is regarded as off-topic to
this list and should be done privately.


Re: Adoption and family trees #general

Sally Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

"And assuming the answer is "Yes," how do you tell your genealogy program
that she has a Mother and a Father and a Birthmother and a Birthfather?"

This is easily done with some programs; the one I use allows a person to
have 2 sets of parents-and at least some other programs do also.

Sally Bruckheimer
Chatham, NJ


Family trees #general

David Kravitz
 

Surely there is only one question to be answered when compiling a family
tree? For what reason are you compiling a list? If you are doing it solely
for "something to pass the time"", then make your own decisions and rules.
If, as in my case, you are creating a tree for future generations to access,
you need to make the list as accurate and full as possible.

I set out to create a complete list of all my great grandparents
descendants. So, if you directly carry their genes you are included. And, of
you marry such a person, you are in, whatever your race, color or creed. You
may not necessarily know that answer. There is family in Canada called Kwan
but I have not asked if the husband is Oriental or his surname was formerly
something unpronouncable >from eastern Europe.

I am not interested in the families of those who marry in to my family, not
my late wife's parents or siblings, but purely as just outlined. This does
not appeal to many genealogists who seem to take pride in making their trees
as large as possible but that is their choice. But I would never exclude
anyone on the grounds of prejudice. The argument of Jewish/non Jewish, in or
out, is highly personal but exclusion might cause my own great grandchildren
difficulties. I use Family Tree Maker and can include notes about
individuals that might be pertinent in the future.

As an aside to the question of purity of race, my late wife and I both
had/has brown eyes. Both our children and all four grandchildren have blue
eyes. Her family were Litvak, mine Polak. To many Litvaks, marrying a Polak
was marrying out. Fifty years ago in Manchester, England, the Ashkenazim
lived to the north of the city, the Sephardim to the south and intermarriage
was jokingly referred to as marrying out. I agree with Michael Bernet that
this argument has gone too far.

David Kravitz


MODERATOR NOTE: Computer software issues are better fitted to the
soc.genealogy.computing newsgroup. We allow a few comments to the original
message, but further discussion on this topic is regarded as off-topic to
this list and should be done privately.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Re: Adoption and family trees #general

Sally Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

"And assuming the answer is "Yes," how do you tell your genealogy program
that she has a Mother and a Father and a Birthmother and a Birthfather?"

This is easily done with some programs; the one I use allows a person to
have 2 sets of parents-and at least some other programs do also.

Sally Bruckheimer
Chatham, NJ


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Family trees #general

David Kravitz
 

Surely there is only one question to be answered when compiling a family
tree? For what reason are you compiling a list? If you are doing it solely
for "something to pass the time"", then make your own decisions and rules.
If, as in my case, you are creating a tree for future generations to access,
you need to make the list as accurate and full as possible.

I set out to create a complete list of all my great grandparents
descendants. So, if you directly carry their genes you are included. And, of
you marry such a person, you are in, whatever your race, color or creed. You
may not necessarily know that answer. There is family in Canada called Kwan
but I have not asked if the husband is Oriental or his surname was formerly
something unpronouncable >from eastern Europe.

I am not interested in the families of those who marry in to my family, not
my late wife's parents or siblings, but purely as just outlined. This does
not appeal to many genealogists who seem to take pride in making their trees
as large as possible but that is their choice. But I would never exclude
anyone on the grounds of prejudice. The argument of Jewish/non Jewish, in or
out, is highly personal but exclusion might cause my own great grandchildren
difficulties. I use Family Tree Maker and can include notes about
individuals that might be pertinent in the future.

As an aside to the question of purity of race, my late wife and I both
had/has brown eyes. Both our children and all four grandchildren have blue
eyes. Her family were Litvak, mine Polak. To many Litvaks, marrying a Polak
was marrying out. Fifty years ago in Manchester, England, the Ashkenazim
lived to the north of the city, the Sephardim to the south and intermarriage
was jokingly referred to as marrying out. I agree with Michael Bernet that
this argument has gone too far.

David Kravitz


MODERATOR NOTE: Computer software issues are better fitted to the
soc.genealogy.computing newsgroup. We allow a few comments to the original
message, but further discussion on this topic is regarded as off-topic to
this list and should be done privately.


Re: Leaving Odessa... #general

Mervyn Doobov <mdoobov@...>
 

I would like to hear your thoughts about routes to the New World
(but including the UK) >from Odessa in the 1880s. Can we
generalize as to the most popular modes of transport >from Odessa
to a Baltic port? Thanks for your input, Carol Raspler, Delray
Beach, FL
If it's of interest, my grandmother's family moved >from Odessa to
Harbin and, thence, to a newer world (Australia). At the same time, my
mother's step-father, also >from Ukraine, travelled via Yokohama on his
way to the New World but, thankfully, changed his mind and headed
southwards >from there instead.

--
Mervyn Doobov,
Jerusalem, Israel.


Re: Recording "Mixed" Marriages in the Family Tree <Grin> #general

DonnDevine@...
 

Michael Bernet wrote, with tongue in cheek:

<< I have therefore decided to cut all non-Levites >from my tree. Some friends
have suggested I leave Kohanim in the tree because, originally, they were also
Levites. I think, however, that Kohanim are too proud and boastful about their
heritage and, besides, I cannot as a vegetarian endorse Kohanim who ate the
sacrificial flesh in the Temple. >>

and asked:

<<Does anyone think I'm not being fair? >>

Can we allow fairness or objectivity to intrude, if we're really serious
about maintaining the appearance of purity in a recorded family line? < g >

Donn Devine
Wilmington DE