Date   

Cohanim, Leviim and Genealogy #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 3/31/2006 7:55:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Nick
Landau _tulse04-news@yahoo.co.uk_ (mailto:tulse04-news@yahoo.co.uk)
commented on a statement by
"Alan Weiser" <alanboy@starpower.net> that read

Recently a gentleman with the same surname as mine inquired of me
whether I was a Cohen, Levy, or Israel. When I replied I was an
Israel, he responded there would be no family relationship because he
was a Levy.
Nick's comment was:

< I would suggest that with a little thought he would have realised he was
< wrong. My mother was the daughter of a Cohen. I am not.

< If my mother had had a brother he would have been a Cohen, and so
< would his children have been. My cousins in that case, would have been
< Cohanim, whilst, as I say, I am not.

==Nick Landau seems to forget that the first thing Alan told us was
"a gentleman with the same surname as mine." In other words the
"gentleman", presumably a Mr. Weiser, is a Levite. Presumably his surname
has come down in the male line. Presumably Alan Weiser also acquired his
name through the male line. "Gentleman" Weiser's ancestors were Levites,
Alan Weisers were not. Ergo, two different and unrelated male lines of
descent.

==Knowing these traditional groups among Jews can be very useful. My pgm's
mgf was Baer GOLDSCHMIDT of Bad Homburg near Frankfurt. It was suggested
to me that for a variety of good reasons, he was likely related to the famed
Goldschmidt families of Frankfurt. Thanks to the help of many genners who
responded to my query a few days ago, I was able to explore the trees of the famed
Frankfurt Goldschmidts. They were all Levites. My ancestor is a Yisraei. Clear
to me, with no further searching, my ancestor is not related in the male line to
those families.

==Similarly, My male ancestral line is Levi'im. Early in my genealogy
research I looked up Frensdorf, our ancestral village, in the Encyclopedia
Judaica. The village wasn't there
(not surprising--it was tiny) but the EJ did give me a lead to a line of
rabbis and scholars in Hamburg and Hanover, named FRENSDORFF. Furthermore, they
were Levites.

==At various times since around 1700, family members had moved away >from our
village and, on moving elsewhere, became know as the FRENSDORFs and they were
all, not surprisingly, Levites, too. I have since been searching for FRENSDORFs
and FRENSDORFFs all over the world, and found many. The FRENSDORFF descendants
have done excellent research and have details on hundreds of family members,
including at least one, an Episcopal (Anglican) bishop. The Jews among them are
very aware of their Levitical status. I am planning to have a DNA test to
establish what we already know,
that we share the same ancestor, Suessel Alexander Jekusiel ben Naftali
Hirsch Halevi of Frensdorf, born ca 1650.

==I keep checking out FRENSDORF families wherever I find them (Only those who came
to Hamburg in the late 18th century doubled the last letter of their name).
My first enquiry is always "are they Levites." I haven't come across one yet who
knew for sure he wasn't.

==Similarly, my pgm's pgm was a Mainzer. Tradition has it she was descended >from
the Mainzer dynasty of rabbis who stem >from Mainz. The rabbis of mainz were
Levites. I had no idea about my female ancestor--but her father's grave shows
clearly that he wasa Levite--so the tradition of her descent is likely correct.

==Knowing whether someone's male line is Kohen or Levi can be extremely
useful in tracing ancestry. It doesn't necessarily prove it, but if the status
doesn't match, one has to find lots of substantial proofs if one wants to
convincingly establish a relationship.

Michael Bernet, New York


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Cohanim, Leviim and Genealogy #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 3/31/2006 7:55:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Nick
Landau _tulse04-news@yahoo.co.uk_ (mailto:tulse04-news@yahoo.co.uk)
commented on a statement by
"Alan Weiser" <alanboy@starpower.net> that read

Recently a gentleman with the same surname as mine inquired of me
whether I was a Cohen, Levy, or Israel. When I replied I was an
Israel, he responded there would be no family relationship because he
was a Levy.
Nick's comment was:

< I would suggest that with a little thought he would have realised he was
< wrong. My mother was the daughter of a Cohen. I am not.

< If my mother had had a brother he would have been a Cohen, and so
< would his children have been. My cousins in that case, would have been
< Cohanim, whilst, as I say, I am not.

==Nick Landau seems to forget that the first thing Alan told us was
"a gentleman with the same surname as mine." In other words the
"gentleman", presumably a Mr. Weiser, is a Levite. Presumably his surname
has come down in the male line. Presumably Alan Weiser also acquired his
name through the male line. "Gentleman" Weiser's ancestors were Levites,
Alan Weisers were not. Ergo, two different and unrelated male lines of
descent.

==Knowing these traditional groups among Jews can be very useful. My pgm's
mgf was Baer GOLDSCHMIDT of Bad Homburg near Frankfurt. It was suggested
to me that for a variety of good reasons, he was likely related to the famed
Goldschmidt families of Frankfurt. Thanks to the help of many genners who
responded to my query a few days ago, I was able to explore the trees of the famed
Frankfurt Goldschmidts. They were all Levites. My ancestor is a Yisraei. Clear
to me, with no further searching, my ancestor is not related in the male line to
those families.

==Similarly, My male ancestral line is Levi'im. Early in my genealogy
research I looked up Frensdorf, our ancestral village, in the Encyclopedia
Judaica. The village wasn't there
(not surprising--it was tiny) but the EJ did give me a lead to a line of
rabbis and scholars in Hamburg and Hanover, named FRENSDORFF. Furthermore, they
were Levites.

==At various times since around 1700, family members had moved away >from our
village and, on moving elsewhere, became know as the FRENSDORFs and they were
all, not surprisingly, Levites, too. I have since been searching for FRENSDORFs
and FRENSDORFFs all over the world, and found many. The FRENSDORFF descendants
have done excellent research and have details on hundreds of family members,
including at least one, an Episcopal (Anglican) bishop. The Jews among them are
very aware of their Levitical status. I am planning to have a DNA test to
establish what we already know,
that we share the same ancestor, Suessel Alexander Jekusiel ben Naftali
Hirsch Halevi of Frensdorf, born ca 1650.

==I keep checking out FRENSDORF families wherever I find them (Only those who came
to Hamburg in the late 18th century doubled the last letter of their name).
My first enquiry is always "are they Levites." I haven't come across one yet who
knew for sure he wasn't.

==Similarly, my pgm's pgm was a Mainzer. Tradition has it she was descended >from
the Mainzer dynasty of rabbis who stem >from Mainz. The rabbis of mainz were
Levites. I had no idea about my female ancestor--but her father's grave shows
clearly that he wasa Levite--so the tradition of her descent is likely correct.

==Knowing whether someone's male line is Kohen or Levi can be extremely
useful in tracing ancestry. It doesn't necessarily prove it, but if the status
doesn't match, one has to find lots of substantial proofs if one wants to
convincingly establish a relationship.

Michael Bernet, New York


ELBING, West Prussia/ELBLAG, Poland Researchers #general

Carolyn Lea <clea@...>
 

I have some (small amount) of historical information on the Jewish
community in Elbing >from the Elbing-L list. It is in German. If anyone is
interested please email me privately and I will forward it to you. I had
google translate but it is not perfect! I can send the German or both.

I also still have a copy of the Elbing FHL film (Jewish records 1812-71) and
will probably renew it - if you would like for me to look for a family for
you please let me know.

Carolyn Lea
NW Ohio
ID# 152314
clea@woh.rr.com

Researching: SCHWARZBAUM/SCHWARTZBAUM > Posen, Prussia >New York,
Savannah, Georgia and California ROTHSCHILD/ROTHCHILD> Zierenberg, Hessen
Kassel, Prussia> Darien and Savannah, Georgia BASCH>Prussia>Savannah, Georgia
LEWISOHN/LEVISON Elbing, West Prussia> Brunswick and Savannah, Georgia, New York
OPPENHEIM > Savannah, Georgia WEINBERG >Prussia? > Georgia


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen ELBING, West Prussia/ELBLAG, Poland Researchers #general

Carolyn Lea <clea@...>
 

I have some (small amount) of historical information on the Jewish
community in Elbing >from the Elbing-L list. It is in German. If anyone is
interested please email me privately and I will forward it to you. I had
google translate but it is not perfect! I can send the German or both.

I also still have a copy of the Elbing FHL film (Jewish records 1812-71) and
will probably renew it - if you would like for me to look for a family for
you please let me know.

Carolyn Lea
NW Ohio
ID# 152314
clea@woh.rr.com

Researching: SCHWARZBAUM/SCHWARTZBAUM > Posen, Prussia >New York,
Savannah, Georgia and California ROTHSCHILD/ROTHCHILD> Zierenberg, Hessen
Kassel, Prussia> Darien and Savannah, Georgia BASCH>Prussia>Savannah, Georgia
LEWISOHN/LEVISON Elbing, West Prussia> Brunswick and Savannah, Georgia, New York
OPPENHEIM > Savannah, Georgia WEINBERG >Prussia? > Georgia


Re: Izsak Lorber #hungary

Sandor Bacskai <bacskaisanyi@...>
 

Dear Sam Lorber,

The mentioned Izsak Lorber served as cantor of the Budapest Jewish
Community. He came >from Hajdunanas, and married Julia Weisz.
In the 1930s, he lived at Dohany Street, Budapest 7th district,. As
your message, he lived in the Budapest 3rd district previously.

Did you mean him?

Sincerely,

Sandor Bacskai
Budapest, Hungary


Address in Budapest #hungary

peter bakos <pgbakos@...>
 

Nev: Lorber Izsak
Foglalkozas: izr. hitkozs. alk.
Kerulet: III.
Cim: Zichy-u. 9.

This means

Name: Isak Lorber
Occupation: Works in the Jewish Community (as what is not clear as the
abbreviation alk doesn't tell me anything I can find in the dictionary.
District: III (This is on the Buda side, actually Obuda)
Address: 9 Zichy street This street has been renamed, I believe. The
Zichy family owned parts of Obuda and invited the Jewish community to locate
themselves here following the liberation of Budapest >from the Turks by the
Austrians. As the Ottomans had been tolerant of the Jewish faith, some in
the Austrian establishment sought to punish them.

Peter Bakos


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Izsak Lorber #hungary

Sandor Bacskai <bacskaisanyi@...>
 

Dear Sam Lorber,

The mentioned Izsak Lorber served as cantor of the Budapest Jewish
Community. He came >from Hajdunanas, and married Julia Weisz.
In the 1930s, he lived at Dohany Street, Budapest 7th district,. As
your message, he lived in the Budapest 3rd district previously.

Did you mean him?

Sincerely,

Sandor Bacskai
Budapest, Hungary


Hungary SIG #Hungary Address in Budapest #hungary

peter bakos <pgbakos@...>
 

Nev: Lorber Izsak
Foglalkozas: izr. hitkozs. alk.
Kerulet: III.
Cim: Zichy-u. 9.

This means

Name: Isak Lorber
Occupation: Works in the Jewish Community (as what is not clear as the
abbreviation alk doesn't tell me anything I can find in the dictionary.
District: III (This is on the Buda side, actually Obuda)
Address: 9 Zichy street This street has been renamed, I believe. The
Zichy family owned parts of Obuda and invited the Jewish community to locate
themselves here following the liberation of Budapest >from the Turks by the
Austrians. As the Ottomans had been tolerant of the Jewish faith, some in
the Austrian establishment sought to punish them.

Peter Bakos


Re: Budapest Street Names #hungary

Lynn Saul <lynnsaul@...>
 

Yes, the districts are shown with the roman numerals identifying them. On
modern maps, at least, each district is usually printed in a different
color, so they're easy to identify.
On street signs around the city, the district is also shown, usually with
both the roman numeral and the name of the district (as well as the name of
the street).
Lynn Saul
Tucson AZ
Researching FRIEDMAN, CZINNER, PERLSTEIN, SCHOENBERGER, HOLLOS,
Satoraljaujhely, Porosko, Kolosvar, Cegled, Budapest

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie Budgar" <lbudgar@comcast.net>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 8:13 AM
Subject: Re:[h-sig] Budapest Street Names


Thank you both. This is really helpful information. Also, to the person
who suggested the various districts where Erzsebet Utca could be found --
are those districts commonly noted on street maps?

Laurie Budgar
Boulder, CO

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re:Budapest Street Names
From: Vivian Kahn <vkahn@kmort.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 00:02:16 -0800
X-Message-Number: 3

You can also find a searchable 1900 Budapest Directory on-line at:

http://www.bparchiv.hu/cgi-bin/lakas/lakas.pl

Vivian Kahn, Oakland, CA

On Mar 25, 2006, at 10:00 PM, H-SIG digest wrote:



Subject: Budapest Street Names
From: "peter bakos" <pgbakos@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 00:17:43 +0000
X-Message-Number: 3

This is a wonderful example of why so many immigrants ended up with
changed
names. The best I can make out is that maybe it is Erzsebet utca.
There is
of course the famous Erzsebet Korut which is part of one of the
Buadpest
"Rings". Certainly there is at least one Erzsebet utca as well, but
regrettably all of my stuff is packed.

The best way for you to confirm the residence of your ancestors
would be to
consult the Budapest City Directory. By my recollection a copy of
the 1907
book exists in the Ervin Szabo library in Pest. It is easy to find
and you
can get entry fairly easily without having to speak Hungarian. You
may have
to get a day card, but it will be free. Just ask for the Budapest
room and
you will find the City Directories on the back wall.

Peter Bakos
Sarasota, Florida


Re: Budapest Street Names #hungary

Patricia J Weisshaus <patjw28@...>
 

In the guidebook "Time Out Guide Budapest, there is a map which shows the
modern-day districts, but not muich detail. Then it does show districts in
much greater detail, with streets. It's a beautiful guide. Mine is the
second edition published in 1998 by Penguin Books, and I believe I got it
either >from Border's or Barnes & Noble.

Pat Weisshaus
New Hampshire

At 10:13 AM 3/28/2006, Laurie Budgar wrote:
Thank you both. This is really helpful information. Also, to the person
who suggested the various districts where Erzsebet Utca could be found --
are those districts commonly noted on street maps?
Laurie Budgar
Boulder, CO


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Re:Budapest Street Names #hungary

Lynn Saul <lynnsaul@...>
 

Yes, the districts are shown with the roman numerals identifying them. On
modern maps, at least, each district is usually printed in a different
color, so they're easy to identify.
On street signs around the city, the district is also shown, usually with
both the roman numeral and the name of the district (as well as the name of
the street).
Lynn Saul
Tucson AZ
Researching FRIEDMAN, CZINNER, PERLSTEIN, SCHOENBERGER, HOLLOS,
Satoraljaujhely, Porosko, Kolosvar, Cegled, Budapest

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie Budgar" <lbudgar@comcast.net>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 8:13 AM
Subject: Re:[h-sig] Budapest Street Names


Thank you both. This is really helpful information. Also, to the person
who suggested the various districts where Erzsebet Utca could be found --
are those districts commonly noted on street maps?

Laurie Budgar
Boulder, CO

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re:Budapest Street Names
From: Vivian Kahn <vkahn@kmort.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 00:02:16 -0800
X-Message-Number: 3

You can also find a searchable 1900 Budapest Directory on-line at:

http://www.bparchiv.hu/cgi-bin/lakas/lakas.pl

Vivian Kahn, Oakland, CA

On Mar 25, 2006, at 10:00 PM, H-SIG digest wrote:



Subject: Budapest Street Names
From: "peter bakos" <pgbakos@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 00:17:43 +0000
X-Message-Number: 3

This is a wonderful example of why so many immigrants ended up with
changed
names. The best I can make out is that maybe it is Erzsebet utca.
There is
of course the famous Erzsebet Korut which is part of one of the
Buadpest
"Rings". Certainly there is at least one Erzsebet utca as well, but
regrettably all of my stuff is packed.

The best way for you to confirm the residence of your ancestors
would be to
consult the Budapest City Directory. By my recollection a copy of
the 1907
book exists in the Ervin Szabo library in Pest. It is easy to find
and you
can get entry fairly easily without having to speak Hungarian. You
may have
to get a day card, but it will be free. Just ask for the Budapest
room and
you will find the City Directories on the back wall.

Peter Bakos
Sarasota, Florida


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re:Budapest Street Names #hungary

Patricia J Weisshaus <patjw28@...>
 

In the guidebook "Time Out Guide Budapest, there is a map which shows the
modern-day districts, but not muich detail. Then it does show districts in
much greater detail, with streets. It's a beautiful guide. Mine is the
second edition published in 1998 by Penguin Books, and I believe I got it
either >from Border's or Barnes & Noble.

Pat Weisshaus
New Hampshire

At 10:13 AM 3/28/2006, Laurie Budgar wrote:
Thank you both. This is really helpful information. Also, to the person
who suggested the various districts where Erzsebet Utca could be found --
are those districts commonly noted on street maps?
Laurie Budgar
Boulder, CO


Re Budapest Street Names #hungary

Sam Lorber <laurelrest@...>
 

I'd like to thank all the people who took the time to respond to my request
for a translation for the 1900 directory entry for Izsak Lorber.
Now I have another clue for the search.

Sam Lorber
Nashville, TN

researching: LORBER Budapest, Also-Orlich (Nizny Orlik), Berzel (Bercel)

Moderator: Thanks to all who helped with translation. Please limit future messages to new information.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re Budapest Street Names #hungary

Sam Lorber <laurelrest@...>
 

I'd like to thank all the people who took the time to respond to my request
for a translation for the 1900 directory entry for Izsak Lorber.
Now I have another clue for the search.

Sam Lorber
Nashville, TN

researching: LORBER Budapest, Also-Orlich (Nizny Orlik), Berzel (Bercel)

Moderator: Thanks to all who helped with translation. Please limit future messages to new information.


Budapest Street Names #hungary

Jbacskai@...
 

Sam Lorber asked what this entry means in the 1900 Budapest Directory:


Nev: Lorber Izsak
Foglalkozas: Izr. hitk alk.= Izraelita hitkozsegi alkalmazott

Kerulet: III.
Cim: Zichy-u. 9.

Name: Izsak Lorber
Occupation: Jewish community employee
District: III
Address: Zichy str. 9

Judy Bacskai
Kensington, Californa


Re: Budapest Street Names #hungary

Gábor Hirsch <g_hirsch@...>
 

Foglalkozas: izr. hitkozs. alk. or Izraelita hitkozseg alkalmazottja
means
Employee of the Jewish Community

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
Von: "Robert O. Singer" <singerro8@comcast.net>
An: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Betreff: Re: [h-sig] Budapest Street Names
Datum: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:04:18 -0700

The translation: Name: Lorber Izsak (Lorber is the family name.
Occupation:
Jewish Believers Association Employee. District:3, Zichy Street 9. I am
not very sure that the translation of Believers Association is quite
correct. Hope this helps.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Budapest Street Names #hungary

Jbacskai@...
 

Sam Lorber asked what this entry means in the 1900 Budapest Directory:


Nev: Lorber Izsak
Foglalkozas: Izr. hitk alk.= Izraelita hitkozsegi alkalmazott

Kerulet: III.
Cim: Zichy-u. 9.

Name: Izsak Lorber
Occupation: Jewish community employee
District: III
Address: Zichy str. 9

Judy Bacskai
Kensington, Californa


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Budapest Street Names #hungary

Gábor Hirsch <g_hirsch@...>
 

Foglalkozas: izr. hitkozs. alk. or Izraelita hitkozseg alkalmazottja
means
Employee of the Jewish Community

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
Von: "Robert O. Singer" <singerro8@comcast.net>
An: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Betreff: Re: [h-sig] Budapest Street Names
Datum: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:04:18 -0700

The translation: Name: Lorber Izsak (Lorber is the family name.
Occupation:
Jewish Believers Association Employee. District:3, Zichy Street 9. I am
not very sure that the translation of Believers Association is quite
correct. Hope this helps.


Re: Other Hungarian Census Records from 1795 through 1830 #hungary

Carol J. Robinson <caroljr@...>
 

The title is wrong. We'll fix it the next time we update the records.

Carol Robinson
H-SIG Research Coordinator
Israel P wrote:

I just did a lookup of Rosenzweig in the All-Hungary database and had a
look at the thirty-eight records listed under "Other Hungarian Census
Records >from 1795 through 1830 ."

Some of those records are listed as 1850. Is this date wrong or is it
the "through 1830" in the title?


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Other Hungarian Census Records from 1795 through 1830 #hungary

Carol J. Robinson <caroljr@...>
 

The title is wrong. We'll fix it the next time we update the records.

Carol Robinson
H-SIG Research Coordinator
Israel P wrote:

I just did a lookup of Rosenzweig in the All-Hungary database and had a
look at the thirty-eight records listed under "Other Hungarian Census
Records >from 1795 through 1830 ."

Some of those records are listed as 1850. Is this date wrong or is it
the "through 1830" in the title?