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*Re: Slovakia: Jewish naming practices in the 18th century #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Sorry Sarah, but I didn't make myself clear.

The examples I gave are ALL Hungarian renderings of names which, as you well pointed, have Hebrew equivalents. That is NOT what I was willing to accentuate. The point was why Orthodox Jews would prefer to use a Hungarian rendering instead of the Hebrew equivalent? Why would, for example, a religious Jew call his daughter Marcsa instead of Miriam or his son Gabor instead of Gabriel? To me these were symptoms of the eagerness of Hungarian Jews willing to assimilate or at least seeking to not look so Jewish.

As for the Medieval Spanish Jewish customs, they can't be compared to East European Jewish customs. In many of the censuses and vital records I have examined, >from the period mentioned (1780-1790), Slovakian and Hungarian Jews used Hebrew names or their local equivalents (Moshe = Mozes in Hungarian, Yaakov = Jakab in Hungarian, Sarah = Sara in Hungarian and so on) rather then typically Hungarian renderings such as those founds in the listing I mentioned in my previous message.

I hope that this time I made myself clear :-)
Regards
Tom

At 01:04 -0500 10.04.2007, SFeuerstein <ethnoca@...> wrote:

First of all, using non-Jewish names was not uncommom
throughout the ages. Just have a look at this list of
Medieval Spanish Jewish names and see some really odd
names of Arab origin:
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/iberian-jewish/

As for the above Slovakian list,
Elisabetha = Elisheva
Jutka, diminutive for Judit = Yehudith
Marcsa, diminutive for Maria = Maryam, Miriam
Susana = Shoshana
Gabor = Gibor, Gabriel
--
...........................................
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@...>
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Hungary SIG #Hungary *Re: Slovakia: Jewish naming practices in the 18th century #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Sorry Sarah, but I didn't make myself clear.

The examples I gave are ALL Hungarian renderings of names which, as you well pointed, have Hebrew equivalents. That is NOT what I was willing to accentuate. The point was why Orthodox Jews would prefer to use a Hungarian rendering instead of the Hebrew equivalent? Why would, for example, a religious Jew call his daughter Marcsa instead of Miriam or his son Gabor instead of Gabriel? To me these were symptoms of the eagerness of Hungarian Jews willing to assimilate or at least seeking to not look so Jewish.

As for the Medieval Spanish Jewish customs, they can't be compared to East European Jewish customs. In many of the censuses and vital records I have examined, >from the period mentioned (1780-1790), Slovakian and Hungarian Jews used Hebrew names or their local equivalents (Moshe = Mozes in Hungarian, Yaakov = Jakab in Hungarian, Sarah = Sara in Hungarian and so on) rather then typically Hungarian renderings such as those founds in the listing I mentioned in my previous message.

I hope that this time I made myself clear :-)
Regards
Tom

At 01:04 -0500 10.04.2007, SFeuerstein <ethnoca@...> wrote:

First of all, using non-Jewish names was not uncommom
throughout the ages. Just have a look at this list of
Medieval Spanish Jewish names and see some really odd
names of Arab origin:
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/iberian-jewish/

As for the above Slovakian list,
Elisabetha = Elisheva
Jutka, diminutive for Judit = Yehudith
Marcsa, diminutive for Maria = Maryam, Miriam
Susana = Shoshana
Gabor = Gibor, Gabriel
--
...........................................
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@...>
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Re: Slovakia: Jewish naming practices in the 18th century #hungary

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

Jeff Malka posted as follows:

"Very interesting Tom. My wife's grandmother, who came >from Slovakia and was
Magyar speaking, was called Jenny (born 1886). I had thought that must have
been an Americanized name but saw that her name in passenger and Slovakian
records was really "Czeni". Was that a common first name among Slovakian
or Hungarian Jews?"

The secular name Jenny was used in that spelling by German, Hungarian, and
Polish Jews, as well, of course, by non-Jews. This spelling was not
adopted >from use by that name in English in the U.S.!

These secular names were recognized by the rabbis of those regions for use
in identifying Jewish women in the Jewish divorce contract, or Get. In
this case, the legal Jewish contract was written in Yiddish and Hebrew, so
these names were rendered there in their Yiddish format, by transliterating
the secular German/Hungarian/Polish name into Yiddish (i.e., Hebrew)
characters. The rabbinic decision as to whether or not a secular given
name must be used to identify a Jewish person in a Get was determined by a
statistical study by the rabbis of the use of secular names by Jews.

One can see how these names (and other variants) were recognized and
specified by the rabbis by visiting the JewishGen web site for the Given
Names Data Bases, for these three regions, as well as other regions:

< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/ >

and searching for the name "Jenny" (without the quotation marks), in the
appropriate data base. These data bases cover Jewish given names for
persons born within the time period 1795 to 1925.

Good luck with your research.

--
Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel
jerry@...
Re: Slovakia: Jewish naming practices in the 18th century #hungary

Sam Vass <SVass@...>
 

<<but saw that her name in passenger and Slovakian records was really
"Czeni". Was that a common first name among Slovakian or Hungarian
Jews?>>

My own distant relatives:
Zseni Klein born 1880 in Krasna
Szani Weil born 1871 near Zilina

Both towns were in Trencsen, Megye (now Slovakia)
Sam Vass (WEIL), Kent, WA, USA (C27F2 at www.ysearch.org)
Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Slovakia: Jewish naming practices in the 18th century #hungary

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

Jeff Malka posted as follows:

"Very interesting Tom. My wife's grandmother, who came >from Slovakia and was
Magyar speaking, was called Jenny (born 1886). I had thought that must have
been an Americanized name but saw that her name in passenger and Slovakian
records was really "Czeni". Was that a common first name among Slovakian
or Hungarian Jews?"

The secular name Jenny was used in that spelling by German, Hungarian, and
Polish Jews, as well, of course, by non-Jews. This spelling was not
adopted >from use by that name in English in the U.S.!

These secular names were recognized by the rabbis of those regions for use
in identifying Jewish women in the Jewish divorce contract, or Get. In
this case, the legal Jewish contract was written in Yiddish and Hebrew, so
these names were rendered there in their Yiddish format, by transliterating
the secular German/Hungarian/Polish name into Yiddish (i.e., Hebrew)
characters. The rabbinic decision as to whether or not a secular given
name must be used to identify a Jewish person in a Get was determined by a
statistical study by the rabbis of the use of secular names by Jews.

One can see how these names (and other variants) were recognized and
specified by the rabbis by visiting the JewishGen web site for the Given
Names Data Bases, for these three regions, as well as other regions:

< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/ >

and searching for the name "Jenny" (without the quotation marks), in the
appropriate data base. These data bases cover Jewish given names for
persons born within the time period 1795 to 1925.

Good luck with your research.

--
Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel
jerry@...
Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Slovakia: Jewish naming practices in the 18th century #hungary

Sam Vass <SVass@...>
 

<<but saw that her name in passenger and Slovakian records was really
"Czeni". Was that a common first name among Slovakian or Hungarian
Jews?>>

My own distant relatives:
Zseni Klein born 1880 in Krasna
Szani Weil born 1871 near Zilina

Both towns were in Trencsen, Megye (now Slovakia)
Sam Vass (WEIL), Kent, WA, USA (C27F2 at www.ysearch.org)
Kustrin, Brandenburg #general

dennis <dennisj@...>
 

I need some advice on how to begin researching the Jewish community from
Kustrin, Brandenburg. My g-grandfather was born there in 1854, and I would
like to know how to get more information.

Dennis Allon
Jerusalem

MODERATOR NOTE: For more information on German Jewish genealogy, try the
German Jewish Special Interest Group (GerSIG) at
http://www.jewishgen.org/GerSIG/ .
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Kustrin, Brandenburg #general

dennis <dennisj@...>
 

I need some advice on how to begin researching the Jewish community from
Kustrin, Brandenburg. My g-grandfather was born there in 1854, and I would
like to know how to get more information.

Dennis Allon
Jerusalem

MODERATOR NOTE: For more information on German Jewish genealogy, try the
German Jewish Special Interest Group (GerSIG) at
http://www.jewishgen.org/GerSIG/ .
Re: KRIEGER Family from Poland #usa

Brian Stern <brians99@...>
 

Hi Peter,

See http://vitalrec.com for information on obtaining vital records
for all US states. This site provides a for-fee service to order
these records online but also provides you with info about the places
where these records are kept and you can contact those agencies
directly to order the records.

Also look at the Pennsylvania USGenWeb project web site. Pittsburgh
is in Alleghany county. You'll find some cemetery lists there.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~pagenweb/

You might also look at the Pennsylvania page at cyndislist:

http://www.cyndislist.com/pa.htm

1. What is the public body to which I should apply for death
records in Pittsburgh?
2. Is there a source of information about Jewish cemeteries in the
area? I should like to discover where members of the family are
buried and whether there are any memorial stones which might yield
vital information.
Brian Stern, Lexington, KY <brians99@...>
Update on Wohyn and Wawolnica (Lublin Area) Projects #general

RobinnM@...
 

Dear JewishGen readers:

The past six months or so has brought us a slew of new indexes for Jewish
Records Indexing - Poland projects in the Lublin area. I'm trying to address
them two at a time since there are so many new things. The towns of Wohyn and
Wawolnica are the next two that I'm publicizing among researchers.

If you have an interest in Wohyn, Wawolnica or any of the Lublin area towns,
please contact me privately for a project update, and I'd be happy to check
to see how many times your family names appear in the new indexes.

Very best wishes,

Robinn Magid
Kensington, California
Lublin Archives Project Coordinator
Jewish Records Indexing - Poland

RobinnM@...
Re: Name on manifest list #general

Ira Leviton
 

Dear Cousins (and Lee),

Lee Kaplan asked, "I need assistance in deciphering the first name of
Herschal (sic) KAPLAN's brother... [he] arrived at Ellis Island on
2/15/1906... his occupation as 'joiner'..."

I reply,
By comparing with the handwriting on the rest of the page, it looks
like his brother's name was Judel, the Yiddish diminutive of Yehudah.
(Some knowledge of Yiddish names is also useful.) The English equivalent
is impossible to predict with certainty -- although the biblical English
equivalent is Judah, many (most?) immigrants used an English name to
become more assimilated, and the name Judah did not accomplish this, so
many chose something else. At that time, the general rule was that the
first letter or sound of the English name matched the Hebrew or Yiddish
name, so his chosen English name could have been anything starting with Y
or J. (Perhaps names like Joseph or Jacob, which match other Hebrew or
Yiddish names, were less likely than Judah, Julius, Jules).

But every rule, including this one, was often "broken." In this case,
a name starting with L could have also been chosen, because Yehudah was
often paired with the names Aryeh and/or Leib, so things become quite
complicated and challenging.

I think that the only way to prove the English name is to find the
brother by another method, such matching the address in a city directory
or federal or New York state census, or by knowing the name of his wife or
children.

A joiner term for a carpenter or cabinetmaker that is obsolete in the
United States. I suggest reviewing the Jewishgen Discussion Group
archives at http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.dll?jg~jgsys~archpop for
good comments that were made in this group several years ago.

Finally, the name Herschal appears to be a transcribing error in the
Ellis Island database, but it was written Herschel on the manifest.

Ira
Ira Leviton
New York, N.Y.
Early American SIG #USA Re: KRIEGER Family from Poland #usa

Brian Stern <brians99@...>
 

Hi Peter,

See http://vitalrec.com for information on obtaining vital records
for all US states. This site provides a for-fee service to order
these records online but also provides you with info about the places
where these records are kept and you can contact those agencies
directly to order the records.

Also look at the Pennsylvania USGenWeb project web site. Pittsburgh
is in Alleghany county. You'll find some cemetery lists there.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~pagenweb/

You might also look at the Pennsylvania page at cyndislist:

http://www.cyndislist.com/pa.htm

1. What is the public body to which I should apply for death
records in Pittsburgh?
2. Is there a source of information about Jewish cemeteries in the
area? I should like to discover where members of the family are
buried and whether there are any memorial stones which might yield
vital information.
Brian Stern, Lexington, KY <brians99@...>
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Update on Wohyn and Wawolnica (Lublin Area) Projects #general

RobinnM@...
 

Dear JewishGen readers:

The past six months or so has brought us a slew of new indexes for Jewish
Records Indexing - Poland projects in the Lublin area. I'm trying to address
them two at a time since there are so many new things. The towns of Wohyn and
Wawolnica are the next two that I'm publicizing among researchers.

If you have an interest in Wohyn, Wawolnica or any of the Lublin area towns,
please contact me privately for a project update, and I'd be happy to check
to see how many times your family names appear in the new indexes.

Very best wishes,

Robinn Magid
Kensington, California
Lublin Archives Project Coordinator
Jewish Records Indexing - Poland

RobinnM@...
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Name on manifest list #general

Ira Leviton
 

Dear Cousins (and Lee),

Lee Kaplan asked, "I need assistance in deciphering the first name of
Herschal (sic) KAPLAN's brother... [he] arrived at Ellis Island on
2/15/1906... his occupation as 'joiner'..."

I reply,
By comparing with the handwriting on the rest of the page, it looks
like his brother's name was Judel, the Yiddish diminutive of Yehudah.
(Some knowledge of Yiddish names is also useful.) The English equivalent
is impossible to predict with certainty -- although the biblical English
equivalent is Judah, many (most?) immigrants used an English name to
become more assimilated, and the name Judah did not accomplish this, so
many chose something else. At that time, the general rule was that the
first letter or sound of the English name matched the Hebrew or Yiddish
name, so his chosen English name could have been anything starting with Y
or J. (Perhaps names like Joseph or Jacob, which match other Hebrew or
Yiddish names, were less likely than Judah, Julius, Jules).

But every rule, including this one, was often "broken." In this case,
a name starting with L could have also been chosen, because Yehudah was
often paired with the names Aryeh and/or Leib, so things become quite
complicated and challenging.

I think that the only way to prove the English name is to find the
brother by another method, such matching the address in a city directory
or federal or New York state census, or by knowing the name of his wife or
children.

A joiner term for a carpenter or cabinetmaker that is obsolete in the
United States. I suggest reviewing the Jewishgen Discussion Group
archives at http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.dll?jg~jgsys~archpop for
good comments that were made in this group several years ago.

Finally, the name Herschal appears to be a transcribing error in the
Ellis Island database, but it was written Herschel on the manifest.

Ira
Ira Leviton
New York, N.Y.
Re: Social Security card applications #general

lynneshap@...
 

While there is certainly a possibility that one or more of the relatives
you cite had a Social Security number, the odds are good that they did
not. In the 1950s, women who did not work outside the home usually did
not have Social Security numbers. Until the mid-1970s, it was not
necessary to have a number of one's own to collect on another person's
record, so women receiving wife's or widow's benefits, e.g., need not
have had their own Social Security number. Self-employment was not
covered under Social Security until 1951. The IRS did not adopt Social
Security numbers as their official taxpayer identification numbers until
1962. If your grandfather was still working in the 1950s, he almost
definitely had a Social Security number, but if he was retired before
then, he may not have. However, that said, there may have been reasons
that you don't know about for them to have had numbers. Perhaps your
grandfather did some other work during WWII as part of the war effort.
In the 1950s, my retired grandfather, who had been self-employed, was
given a part-time job by my father, who was in the same business, to get
him some Social Security coverage - enough for him to qualify for Special
Age 72 (Prouty) benefits, a benefit available to people over a certain
age who needed very limited time under Social Security to get something
because most of their working lives was before the advent of Social
Security. It may be that those who were old enough did not need any
coverage at all, though I don't remember that for sure. The JewishGen
Info files would no doubt tell you what info. is on the card
applications.

Lynne Shapiro
Western Mass.

MODERATOR NOTE: Our InfoFiles are at http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ .
You may also want to read the Frequently Asked Questions at
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/faq.html .
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Social Security card applications #general

lynneshap@...
 

While there is certainly a possibility that one or more of the relatives
you cite had a Social Security number, the odds are good that they did
not. In the 1950s, women who did not work outside the home usually did
not have Social Security numbers. Until the mid-1970s, it was not
necessary to have a number of one's own to collect on another person's
record, so women receiving wife's or widow's benefits, e.g., need not
have had their own Social Security number. Self-employment was not
covered under Social Security until 1951. The IRS did not adopt Social
Security numbers as their official taxpayer identification numbers until
1962. If your grandfather was still working in the 1950s, he almost
definitely had a Social Security number, but if he was retired before
then, he may not have. However, that said, there may have been reasons
that you don't know about for them to have had numbers. Perhaps your
grandfather did some other work during WWII as part of the war effort.
In the 1950s, my retired grandfather, who had been self-employed, was
given a part-time job by my father, who was in the same business, to get
him some Social Security coverage - enough for him to qualify for Special
Age 72 (Prouty) benefits, a benefit available to people over a certain
age who needed very limited time under Social Security to get something
because most of their working lives was before the advent of Social
Security. It may be that those who were old enough did not need any
coverage at all, though I don't remember that for sure. The JewishGen
Info files would no doubt tell you what info. is on the card
applications.

Lynne Shapiro
Western Mass.

MODERATOR NOTE: Our InfoFiles are at http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ .
You may also want to read the Frequently Asked Questions at
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/faq.html .
Re: Research in Alsace and Lorraine... #germany

Rosanne Leeson <rdleeson@...>
 

RE: the question of Mark O'Neill, regarding the location of the place
from which his great great grandmother came >from in "Alsace-Lorraine".
Almost all of the communities in Alsace and Lorraine, have been
microfilmed by the Mormons, and are easily obtained at one's nearest LDS
Library. However, if one does not know the precise locality >from which
their ancestors came then it is virtually impossible to locate any
records, as they are always filed by the community, in the Departemental
(County) Archives, and of course, by the town itself. If possible,
one should first try to determine this fact before trying to get
any records >from France.

Rosanne Leeson Co-Coordinator FrenchSIG <rdleeson@...>
German SIG #Germany RE: Research in Alsace and Lorraine... #germany

Rosanne Leeson <rdleeson@...>
 

RE: the question of Mark O'Neill, regarding the location of the place
from which his great great grandmother came >from in "Alsace-Lorraine".
Almost all of the communities in Alsace and Lorraine, have been
microfilmed by the Mormons, and are easily obtained at one's nearest LDS
Library. However, if one does not know the precise locality >from which
their ancestors came then it is virtually impossible to locate any
records, as they are always filed by the community, in the Departemental
(County) Archives, and of course, by the town itself. If possible,
one should first try to determine this fact before trying to get
any records >from France.

Rosanne Leeson Co-Coordinator FrenchSIG <rdleeson@...>
Siegels from Poland #poland

Julia Maria Koszewska
 

Dear Friends,

I have just posted some photos on Viewmate:

Golda Siegel: http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=9792
Golda Siegel and friend:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=9793
Golda Siegel and another friend:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=9794
Golda and Nathan Siegel:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=9795
Golda and Simra (Simcha?) Siegel:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=9796

Soon I will post more photos where it's possible to see some
buildings >from the city/village where they've been living.

does anyone recognize people on photos: Golda, Nathan, Simra
(Simcha?) Siegels and/or Golda's friends?

I am looking for people that had known this family and/or those that
know the friends that appear on photos with Golda.
Does any one knows about this family? Some of the descendants are
living in Denmark today. But I am looking for those that might be the
descendants of Siegels that stayed in Poland and.. what happened to
them during the War. Did they managed to survive? If so, what was
their story, where they (or their descendants) are now?

Actually any information about this family is more than welcome.

I only know that they are >from Poland and in city/village (name
unknown) they had own bakery.

Best regards- Julia Koszewska
email: julia.koszewska@...

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Please respond privately.
JRI Poland #Poland Siegels from Poland #poland

Julia Maria Koszewska
 

Dear Friends,

I have just posted some photos on Viewmate:

Golda Siegel: http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=9792
Golda Siegel and friend:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=9793
Golda Siegel and another friend:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=9794
Golda and Nathan Siegel:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=9795
Golda and Simra (Simcha?) Siegel:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=9796

Soon I will post more photos where it's possible to see some
buildings >from the city/village where they've been living.

does anyone recognize people on photos: Golda, Nathan, Simra
(Simcha?) Siegels and/or Golda's friends?

I am looking for people that had known this family and/or those that
know the friends that appear on photos with Golda.
Does any one knows about this family? Some of the descendants are
living in Denmark today. But I am looking for those that might be the
descendants of Siegels that stayed in Poland and.. what happened to
them during the War. Did they managed to survive? If so, what was
their story, where they (or their descendants) are now?

Actually any information about this family is more than welcome.

I only know that they are >from Poland and in city/village (name
unknown) they had own bakery.

Best regards- Julia Koszewska
email: julia.koszewska@...

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Please respond privately.
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