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Re: Rabbi in Bodrogkeresztur #hungary

Sandor Bacskai <eretzhagar@...>
 

Dear Stuart Ungar,

Rabbi Shmuel Levi Weinberger was the Rav in 1880s. He left Keresztur
abt. 1892, and lived in Dunaszerdahely later.

>from 1893/1894, Rabbi Moshe Schlesinger-Guns served as Rav. He died
in 1924.

Rabbi Shayele Steiner lived in Keresztur >from 1881 until his death in
1925. He was not Rav, but one of the best known Rebbes in Hungary.

And there was the Dayan and shochet R' Yakov Bogler in 1890s.


Sincerely,

Sandor Bacskai
Budapest, Hungary


On 2008. May. 1, at 8:04, H-SIG digest wrote:

Subject: Rabbi in Bodrogkeresztur
From: Stuart Ungar <teamungar@...>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 04:18:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Message-Number: 1

Hi everyone,

I was fortunate enough to recently speak to an older relative and
gain some insight recently on my family tree. She is my
Grandfather's (Bela UNGAR -never knew him) older sister's (Jutta
UNGAR) daughter (Irene BOEHM). As it turns out, my Great
Grandfather Joszef UNGAR, upon losing his wife Eszter UNGAR had the
local Rabbi "adopt" his daughter Jutta UNGAR. Jutta was only about
10 at the time of her mother's death and -- as the story goes --
Joszef felt he knew nothing about raising a daughter so asked the
local Rabbi if he would take her in. I have a couple questions:

1) was such a practice common?

2) does anyone know the name of the Rabbi(s) in Bodrogkeresztur
from that time (around 1895).
Any help/thoughts appreciated.

Stuart UNGAR
Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Rabbi in Bodrogkeresztur #hungary

Sandor Bacskai <eretzhagar@...>
 

Dear Stuart Ungar,

Rabbi Shmuel Levi Weinberger was the Rav in 1880s. He left Keresztur
abt. 1892, and lived in Dunaszerdahely later.

>from 1893/1894, Rabbi Moshe Schlesinger-Guns served as Rav. He died
in 1924.

Rabbi Shayele Steiner lived in Keresztur >from 1881 until his death in
1925. He was not Rav, but one of the best known Rebbes in Hungary.

And there was the Dayan and shochet R' Yakov Bogler in 1890s.


Sincerely,

Sandor Bacskai
Budapest, Hungary


On 2008. May. 1, at 8:04, H-SIG digest wrote:

Subject: Rabbi in Bodrogkeresztur
From: Stuart Ungar <teamungar@...>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 04:18:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Message-Number: 1

Hi everyone,

I was fortunate enough to recently speak to an older relative and
gain some insight recently on my family tree. She is my
Grandfather's (Bela UNGAR -never knew him) older sister's (Jutta
UNGAR) daughter (Irene BOEHM). As it turns out, my Great
Grandfather Joszef UNGAR, upon losing his wife Eszter UNGAR had the
local Rabbi "adopt" his daughter Jutta UNGAR. Jutta was only about
10 at the time of her mother's death and -- as the story goes --
Joszef felt he knew nothing about raising a daughter so asked the
local Rabbi if he would take her in. I have a couple questions:

1) was such a practice common?

2) does anyone know the name of the Rabbi(s) in Bodrogkeresztur
from that time (around 1895).
Any help/thoughts appreciated.

Stuart UNGAR
Janow, Przasnysz (Janowo?) #poland

siroli <siroli@...>
 

Having recently received a copy of my gr-gr-gr-grandmother's marriage
certificate >from the Polish archives, I discovered that she was born
in JANOW in Przasnysz District (Uyzed).

I have found a JANOWO near Chorzele (which was in Przasnysz District
in the 1800s). Could this be the same town? Wondering if anyone else
has ancestors >from the same Janow, and if so, if they have any information
about the once Jewish community there.

Thanks
Simon Liddle
JRI Poland #Poland Janow, Przasnysz (Janowo?) #poland

siroli <siroli@...>
 

Having recently received a copy of my gr-gr-gr-grandmother's marriage
certificate >from the Polish archives, I discovered that she was born
in JANOW in Przasnysz District (Uyzed).

I have found a JANOWO near Chorzele (which was in Przasnysz District
in the 1800s). Could this be the same town? Wondering if anyone else
has ancestors >from the same Janow, and if so, if they have any information
about the once Jewish community there.

Thanks
Simon Liddle
VIEWAMTE VM1750 - translatin of picture caption from Lithuanian #lithuania

Ilan Ganot <iganot@...>
 

Help is requested translating >from Lithuanian of caption of a group picture
taken in Mazheik (Mazeikiai), Lithuania.

It is supposed to be picture of workers of tile or brick factory of Avrech
in Mazheik.

Link to the picture:
http://data.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/viewmateview.asp?key=11750

Please respond privately.

Kind Regards,

Ilan Ganot,

Co-Webmaster, Mazheik Memorial Website
http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/Mazeikiai/introduction.html
Email: iganot@...
Lithuania SIG #Lithuania VIEWAMTE VM1750 - translatin of picture caption from Lithuanian #lithuania

Ilan Ganot <iganot@...>
 

Help is requested translating >from Lithuanian of caption of a group picture
taken in Mazheik (Mazeikiai), Lithuania.

It is supposed to be picture of workers of tile or brick factory of Avrech
in Mazheik.

Link to the picture:
http://data.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/viewmateview.asp?key=11750

Please respond privately.

Kind Regards,

Ilan Ganot,

Co-Webmaster, Mazheik Memorial Website
http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/Mazeikiai/introduction.html
Email: iganot@...
Divorces in Warsaw, 1890s #general

John & Diana Terry <jaedterry@...>
 

Dear Group

I should appreciate hearing how I can find a Divorce document, issued most
probably in Warsaw, Poland in the 1890's. If not Warsaw, then London,
England.

The years in question are 1892-1897. The surname, BERLINER and
CHERSZKOWICZ.

I thank you for any help or advice

Best wishes

Diana Terry - Tasmania, Australia
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Divorces in Warsaw, 1890s #general

John & Diana Terry <jaedterry@...>
 

Dear Group

I should appreciate hearing how I can find a Divorce document, issued most
probably in Warsaw, Poland in the 1890's. If not Warsaw, then London,
England.

The years in question are 1892-1897. The surname, BERLINER and
CHERSZKOWICZ.

I thank you for any help or advice

Best wishes

Diana Terry - Tasmania, Australia
OPPENHEIM Family- Whose Son Was He? Y-DNA Mismatch #general

Carolyn Lea <clea@...>
 

I have been researching the Hertz Wolf OPPENHEIM/ER (b Hannover 1787) family
that settled in Charleston, SC. A son, Joseph Hertz (b 1823 Charleston) md.
Hannah Joseph (b 1827 Charleston) and moved his family to Savannah, Ga. Last
year I was contacted by a researcher (she found me on Jgen) who was working
on this line. Together we extended my research, especially trying to make
sense of information regarding her husband's grandfather, Frank Davis
Oppenheim. The records we have found indicate the following:

Frank is listed as the son of Joseph and Hannah, b 1882 in the 1900 census.
Hannah claims to have 9 children, 8 living. She claims the same in 1910.

Frank's death certificate also gives his date of birth as 1882 and lists his
parents as Hannah and Joseph, his place of birth as Charleston. Same with
his WWI registration.

Obits for both the parents and most of the siblings (those we have located)
identify Frank as a son/brother.

Frank was a musician who traveled with minstrel shows and circuses. There is
a scrapbook about travels and performances but little on personal life.
There is a postcard (to a sister) in which he refer's to himself as a
brother. Frank had two children by his first marriage. The son was placed in
an orphanage supposedly due to a cleft palate. His sister found him as an
adult. This opens up another possibility, i.e., that the son was not Frank's
child.

The age difference between Frank and and his closest sibling is 17 years.
Hannah would have been 55 years old at the time of his birth. While this is
certainly possible it raised doubts for us and my friend decided to have a Y
DNA test done in which Frank's grandson's DNA was tested against another
direct male descendant in Joseph's line. The DNA did not match and the lab
reported the test results did not match other samples of known Jewish
heritage. Higher-level genetic matches suggested lineage most closely
matched samples originating in the British Isles.

Unlike Keith Promisel who posted about a DNA mismatch last week we do not
doubt the lab's findings. Our questions are concerned with the most likely
possibilities of parentage. I was unable to find a birth record for Frank in
1882 Charleston on the LDS film for that year (altho it is clear some births
were not recorded.) My questions are:

This family was not wealthy as far as we can determine. They were
"comfortable." Is it likely they would have adopted a child when in their
mid-fifties who was not related in some way? If he is not related at all how
common would it be to claim so on the records listed above?

All four daughters were old enough to have a child in 1882. If a daughter
gave birth out of wedlock or was unable to raise the child due to divorce or
abandonment is it likely the child would be raised as and identified as a
son? One daughter married a non-Jewish man (whose lineage was British)
although we have found little information on him and it is unclear when he
died or how much he hung around. Do the labs findings negate the possibility
of a Jewish mother?

Feeling as though we have now hit a brick wall, we would welcome any
comments and suggestions. I know there are many possibilities but we are
trying to determine the most likely scenarios to know how to proceed.

Carolyn Lea
NW Ohio
clea@...
ID# 152314

Researching: SCHWARZBAUM/SCHWARTZBAUM > Posen, Prussia >New York,Savannah, Georgia
and California ROTHSCHILD/ROTHCHILD> Zierenberg, Hessen Kassel, Hamburg? Prussia>
Darien and Savannah, Georgia BASCH>Prussia>Savannah, Georgia LEWISOHN/LEVISON
Elbing, West Prussia> Brunswick and Savannah, Georgia OPPENHEIM(ER) > Hannover>
Savannah, Georgia and South Carolina WEINBERG >Prussia? Hamburg?> Georgia
WITKOWSKI/ WITMAN> Posen, Prussia > Georgia, Florida, New York

MODERATOR NOTE: You may also want to send this query to JewishGen's Early
American SIG. For further information, see http://www.jewishgen.org/EarlyAmerican/
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen OPPENHEIM Family- Whose Son Was He? Y-DNA Mismatch #general

Carolyn Lea <clea@...>
 

I have been researching the Hertz Wolf OPPENHEIM/ER (b Hannover 1787) family
that settled in Charleston, SC. A son, Joseph Hertz (b 1823 Charleston) md.
Hannah Joseph (b 1827 Charleston) and moved his family to Savannah, Ga. Last
year I was contacted by a researcher (she found me on Jgen) who was working
on this line. Together we extended my research, especially trying to make
sense of information regarding her husband's grandfather, Frank Davis
Oppenheim. The records we have found indicate the following:

Frank is listed as the son of Joseph and Hannah, b 1882 in the 1900 census.
Hannah claims to have 9 children, 8 living. She claims the same in 1910.

Frank's death certificate also gives his date of birth as 1882 and lists his
parents as Hannah and Joseph, his place of birth as Charleston. Same with
his WWI registration.

Obits for both the parents and most of the siblings (those we have located)
identify Frank as a son/brother.

Frank was a musician who traveled with minstrel shows and circuses. There is
a scrapbook about travels and performances but little on personal life.
There is a postcard (to a sister) in which he refer's to himself as a
brother. Frank had two children by his first marriage. The son was placed in
an orphanage supposedly due to a cleft palate. His sister found him as an
adult. This opens up another possibility, i.e., that the son was not Frank's
child.

The age difference between Frank and and his closest sibling is 17 years.
Hannah would have been 55 years old at the time of his birth. While this is
certainly possible it raised doubts for us and my friend decided to have a Y
DNA test done in which Frank's grandson's DNA was tested against another
direct male descendant in Joseph's line. The DNA did not match and the lab
reported the test results did not match other samples of known Jewish
heritage. Higher-level genetic matches suggested lineage most closely
matched samples originating in the British Isles.

Unlike Keith Promisel who posted about a DNA mismatch last week we do not
doubt the lab's findings. Our questions are concerned with the most likely
possibilities of parentage. I was unable to find a birth record for Frank in
1882 Charleston on the LDS film for that year (altho it is clear some births
were not recorded.) My questions are:

This family was not wealthy as far as we can determine. They were
"comfortable." Is it likely they would have adopted a child when in their
mid-fifties who was not related in some way? If he is not related at all how
common would it be to claim so on the records listed above?

All four daughters were old enough to have a child in 1882. If a daughter
gave birth out of wedlock or was unable to raise the child due to divorce or
abandonment is it likely the child would be raised as and identified as a
son? One daughter married a non-Jewish man (whose lineage was British)
although we have found little information on him and it is unclear when he
died or how much he hung around. Do the labs findings negate the possibility
of a Jewish mother?

Feeling as though we have now hit a brick wall, we would welcome any
comments and suggestions. I know there are many possibilities but we are
trying to determine the most likely scenarios to know how to proceed.

Carolyn Lea
NW Ohio
clea@...
ID# 152314

Researching: SCHWARZBAUM/SCHWARTZBAUM > Posen, Prussia >New York,Savannah, Georgia
and California ROTHSCHILD/ROTHCHILD> Zierenberg, Hessen Kassel, Hamburg? Prussia>
Darien and Savannah, Georgia BASCH>Prussia>Savannah, Georgia LEWISOHN/LEVISON
Elbing, West Prussia> Brunswick and Savannah, Georgia OPPENHEIM(ER) > Hannover>
Savannah, Georgia and South Carolina WEINBERG >Prussia? Hamburg?> Georgia
WITKOWSKI/ WITMAN> Posen, Prussia > Georgia, Florida, New York

MODERATOR NOTE: You may also want to send this query to JewishGen's Early
American SIG. For further information, see http://www.jewishgen.org/EarlyAmerican/
Kriegsarchiv, Vienna holdings of military records {was: Translation request German to English} #general

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Errol Schneegurt >from NY sent in a translation request for this Viewmate and
asked for a private reply. I have answered it many times on the Austria-Czech
SIG, the Discussion Group, the Galicia SIG and JRI-Pl but people do not seem to
believe me - but here it is - straight >from the archive's mouth:

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=11751

Errol had asked for military records of Herman {Herschel} EYSIK 1865/1889
serving in Tarnopol, Galicia. The answer is so important that I will summarise
it on list: " The Kriegsarchiv, Vienna [Military Archive] today only holds
records of soldiers ***born within*** the political borders of ***modern
Austria***.

Following the collapse of the Habsburg Empire in 1918, the Treaty of St
Germain, at the end of WW1 {1919}, dictated that all other records should be
returned to their successor states {of origin}. Thus these military records of
soldiers {1850-1900} in the Habsburg armies are no longer held in the
Kriegsarchiv in Vienna. Most of the old records were lost, especially the
Galician records [Polish/Ukrainian].

If however the person was born before 1850, the FHC Utah may have data on their
microfilm collection "Grundbuchsblatter der K & K Infanterie-regiments No 15."

I would like to comment on the dates 1850-1900, as given above. That does not
mean that you will find records of "successor states" soldiers serving in WW1
in the Kriegsarchiv, Vienna. The dates refer to dates of birth. Thus any
soldier born after 1900 is unlikely to have served in WW1.

Celia Male [U.K.]
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Kriegsarchiv, Vienna holdings of military records {was: Translation request German to English} #general

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Errol Schneegurt >from NY sent in a translation request for this Viewmate and
asked for a private reply. I have answered it many times on the Austria-Czech
SIG, the Discussion Group, the Galicia SIG and JRI-Pl but people do not seem to
believe me - but here it is - straight >from the archive's mouth:

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=11751

Errol had asked for military records of Herman {Herschel} EYSIK 1865/1889
serving in Tarnopol, Galicia. The answer is so important that I will summarise
it on list: " The Kriegsarchiv, Vienna [Military Archive] today only holds
records of soldiers ***born within*** the political borders of ***modern
Austria***.

Following the collapse of the Habsburg Empire in 1918, the Treaty of St
Germain, at the end of WW1 {1919}, dictated that all other records should be
returned to their successor states {of origin}. Thus these military records of
soldiers {1850-1900} in the Habsburg armies are no longer held in the
Kriegsarchiv in Vienna. Most of the old records were lost, especially the
Galician records [Polish/Ukrainian].

If however the person was born before 1850, the FHC Utah may have data on their
microfilm collection "Grundbuchsblatter der K & K Infanterie-regiments No 15."

I would like to comment on the dates 1850-1900, as given above. That does not
mean that you will find records of "successor states" soldiers serving in WW1
in the Kriegsarchiv, Vienna. The dates refer to dates of birth. Thus any
soldier born after 1900 is unlikely to have served in WW1.

Celia Male [U.K.]
BITS (BICH/BITZ) family from Dubrovna, Mogilev gub. to Cesis (Venden), Latvia and USA #belarus

Adam Katzeff <Adam.Katzeff@...>
 

Dear all,

One branch of my GOLDBERG family (originating in Papile, Lithuania) married
into a family named BITS (also spelled BICH and BITZ) originating in
Dubrovna, Belarus (formerly in the Mogilev guberniya).

The two persons marrying was Tsilla aka Tsipa GOLDBERG (born about 1875,
daughter of Simon GOLDBERG and Rive KAPLAN) and Yudka Itsekov-Movshev BITS
(born about 1870, probably in Dubrovna, son of Itsek-Movsha BITS).

I'm not sure when or where they married, but they lived in Cesis (Venden),
Latvia in the early 20th century. There they had the following children:

*Zelik Simon, born 1897
*Khaim Simson, born 1898
*Masha-Eta, born 1901
*Izrail/Srol Girsh, born 1903
*Pesya-Leya, born 1905, later married GOLDIN
*Itsek-Movsha, born 1908
*Feyga Gita, born 1911, later married LIVSHITS

Yudka died sometime between 1911 and 1924, probably in Riga. In 1924 his two
children Khaim Simson and Masha-Eta emigrated to the US where they were
going to their aunt Ella SNEIDER (née GOLDBERG), then living in Kenosha,
Wisconsin, but later settled in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

So far I haven't been able to track down Khaim Simson and Masha-Eta after
their arrival in the US, so I have a feeling they might have emigrated
further after some time, perhaps to South America or Israel!?!?

With the help of the new database "Jews of Latvia: A Project of Names and
Fates 1941-1945", I have found out that Tsipa and all the other children
(except the oldest son who I think died already as a child) was still living
in Latvia during WW2. Most likely they were all killed, maybe with an
exception of Pesya-Leya that eventually managed to escape.

Now I'm wondering if someone have come across this family or any other
branches of the BITS family >from Dubrovna in their researches. Maybe someone
even know of the fate of any of the children or have come across some
descendants of the two children who emigrated >from Latvia before WW2.

Best regards,

Adam Katzeff,
Malmoe, Sweden

adam.katzeff@...

Researching:
GOLDBERG: Papile, Lithuania; Cesis, Latvia; Tallinn, Estonia; Glasgow,
Scotland; Sweden; Denmark; CT+WI, USA.
KATSEV/KATZEFF/KATZOFF/KACEV: Papile, Lithuania; Cesis+Riga, Latvia;
Parnu+Tallinn, Estonia; Glasgow, Scotland; Sweden; Denmark; MA+PA+GA+NY+CA,
USA.NEMCHENOK/NEMCHENKO: Yanovichi+Surazh+Velizh+Vitebsk, Belarus; St.
Petersburg, Russia; Paris, France; Sweden; Denmark; NY, USA.

MODERATOR' NOTE: Please respond privately with family information
Belarus SIG #Belarus BITS (BICH/BITZ) family from Dubrovna, Mogilev gub. to Cesis (Venden), Latvia and USA #belarus

Adam Katzeff <Adam.Katzeff@...>
 

Dear all,

One branch of my GOLDBERG family (originating in Papile, Lithuania) married
into a family named BITS (also spelled BICH and BITZ) originating in
Dubrovna, Belarus (formerly in the Mogilev guberniya).

The two persons marrying was Tsilla aka Tsipa GOLDBERG (born about 1875,
daughter of Simon GOLDBERG and Rive KAPLAN) and Yudka Itsekov-Movshev BITS
(born about 1870, probably in Dubrovna, son of Itsek-Movsha BITS).

I'm not sure when or where they married, but they lived in Cesis (Venden),
Latvia in the early 20th century. There they had the following children:

*Zelik Simon, born 1897
*Khaim Simson, born 1898
*Masha-Eta, born 1901
*Izrail/Srol Girsh, born 1903
*Pesya-Leya, born 1905, later married GOLDIN
*Itsek-Movsha, born 1908
*Feyga Gita, born 1911, later married LIVSHITS

Yudka died sometime between 1911 and 1924, probably in Riga. In 1924 his two
children Khaim Simson and Masha-Eta emigrated to the US where they were
going to their aunt Ella SNEIDER (née GOLDBERG), then living in Kenosha,
Wisconsin, but later settled in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

So far I haven't been able to track down Khaim Simson and Masha-Eta after
their arrival in the US, so I have a feeling they might have emigrated
further after some time, perhaps to South America or Israel!?!?

With the help of the new database "Jews of Latvia: A Project of Names and
Fates 1941-1945", I have found out that Tsipa and all the other children
(except the oldest son who I think died already as a child) was still living
in Latvia during WW2. Most likely they were all killed, maybe with an
exception of Pesya-Leya that eventually managed to escape.

Now I'm wondering if someone have come across this family or any other
branches of the BITS family >from Dubrovna in their researches. Maybe someone
even know of the fate of any of the children or have come across some
descendants of the two children who emigrated >from Latvia before WW2.

Best regards,

Adam Katzeff,
Malmoe, Sweden

adam.katzeff@...

Researching:
GOLDBERG: Papile, Lithuania; Cesis, Latvia; Tallinn, Estonia; Glasgow,
Scotland; Sweden; Denmark; CT+WI, USA.
KATSEV/KATZEFF/KATZOFF/KACEV: Papile, Lithuania; Cesis+Riga, Latvia;
Parnu+Tallinn, Estonia; Glasgow, Scotland; Sweden; Denmark; MA+PA+GA+NY+CA,
USA.NEMCHENOK/NEMCHENKO: Yanovichi+Surazh+Velizh+Vitebsk, Belarus; St.
Petersburg, Russia; Paris, France; Sweden; Denmark; NY, USA.

MODERATOR' NOTE: Please respond privately with family information
Rzeszow Jewish Community Memorial Service- Tel Aviv- 14 May #galicia

Marian Rubin
 

The annual Rzeszow (Reisha) Jewish Community memorial service will take place
on May 14 at Nachalat Yitzhak Cemetery in Tel Aviv.

For exact time, please contact Moshe and Emuna Oster in Mevasseret Zion.
Please write to me for their phone number or for the name of another person
to contact.

Marian Rubin
San Francisco
Coordinator, the Rzeszow Research Group
Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Rzeszow Jewish Community Memorial Service- Tel Aviv- 14 May #galicia

Marian Rubin
 

The annual Rzeszow (Reisha) Jewish Community memorial service will take place
on May 14 at Nachalat Yitzhak Cemetery in Tel Aviv.

For exact time, please contact Moshe and Emuna Oster in Mevasseret Zion.
Please write to me for their phone number or for the name of another person
to contact.

Marian Rubin
San Francisco
Coordinator, the Rzeszow Research Group
RAKOCZ-ROKEACH-? connection #hungary

Victor <victor@...>
 

Dear Sandor and Dov,
Thanks, a disconfirmation is as good (and sometimes better) than a
confirmation.

Considering that the earliest hard documentation of the RAKOCZ family I'm
researching dates >from a marriage in Przytyk in1874b (records in Fond 1317
in Warszawa Archive Grodzisk Mazowiecki Branch), the probability of these
RAKOCZ's were somehow related to Elazar Low, the SHEMEN ROKEACH is minimal.

This revives a hypothesis that if the family legend has some historical
basis, it is probably somehow connected to the Sabbatarian Socinian movement
founded in Transylvania towards the end of the sixteenth century. The
Przytyk RAKOCZ's firmly insist that they were Hungarians despite their
living in a suburb of Warsaw. Communication with a survivor of the large
Polish RAKOC family of Kielce confirms that the Przytyk RAKOCZ's were not
related to his family. Interestingly, the RAKOCZ families of Przytyk
generally married off their sons to women >from Transylvania (Sighet, Satu
maru, etc).

All help on this matter would be most appreciated.

To my knowledge Gyorgy Ujlaki is not related to the SILBERSTEINS/PALAGYI's.

Again, thanks for your help on this matter.
Victor Friedlander
Hungary SIG #Hungary RAKOCZ-ROKEACH-? connection #hungary

Victor <victor@...>
 

Dear Sandor and Dov,
Thanks, a disconfirmation is as good (and sometimes better) than a
confirmation.

Considering that the earliest hard documentation of the RAKOCZ family I'm
researching dates >from a marriage in Przytyk in1874b (records in Fond 1317
in Warszawa Archive Grodzisk Mazowiecki Branch), the probability of these
RAKOCZ's were somehow related to Elazar Low, the SHEMEN ROKEACH is minimal.

This revives a hypothesis that if the family legend has some historical
basis, it is probably somehow connected to the Sabbatarian Socinian movement
founded in Transylvania towards the end of the sixteenth century. The
Przytyk RAKOCZ's firmly insist that they were Hungarians despite their
living in a suburb of Warsaw. Communication with a survivor of the large
Polish RAKOC family of Kielce confirms that the Przytyk RAKOCZ's were not
related to his family. Interestingly, the RAKOCZ families of Przytyk
generally married off their sons to women >from Transylvania (Sighet, Satu
maru, etc).

All help on this matter would be most appreciated.

To my knowledge Gyorgy Ujlaki is not related to the SILBERSTEINS/PALAGYI's.

Again, thanks for your help on this matter.
Victor Friedlander
Re: Sephardi vs. Ashkenazi #dna

Ben Forman <ben.forman@...>
 

On 2008.04.30, Judy Simon <heyjude0701@...> wrote:

Two thirds of the participants who have had their Y-DNA tested so
far have been able to confirm their Sephardic history.
I previously replied privately to the orginal post re the Caro
family, but feel I should reply publically to Judy's email.

I do not know about the individual cases quaoted here, but I offer a
short note of "customer caution," a Y-DNA test cannot "prove" that
one comes >from a Sephardic lineage. The test may offer a hypothesis,
or a likelihood to work from, but DNA mutations happen over such
long periods of time, that the YDNA lineages long predate the
Ashkenaz/Sepharad split of only 1000 years or so ago.

As I said in my private post, my own YDNA result showing it to
belong in Haplogroup E, indicates a North/African Middle-Eastern
background, being Jewish and researching further I suspect that
taking a higher resolution test would place me in group E3b

Wikipedia says of group E3b:

"The spread of E3b in Europe is attributed to ancient migrations
from East Africa mediated through North African and Middle Eastern
farmers during the Neolithic period. Among Jews both in Europe and
the Middle East, E3b is the second most common Y haplogroup after J"

The Neolithic period was long befoe the Ashkenaz/Sepharad split so
the test results are not proof of Sepahardic backgound, since the
movement of my middle-eastern/North-African ancestors to Poland
could have occured anytime between 5000 and 300 years ago.

I agree with Judy that a line where all mutations between a person
of confirmed and longstanding Sephardic background and a person of
Ashkenazi background with a Sephardi surname would prove that there
was a common ancestor, but I wouldn't say that this constitutes
proof that it was a common Sephardic ancestor.

For more information here are several interesting papers availabe
online regarding Ashkenazi/Sephardi genetics, including one at
FamilyTree DNA:
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Behar_contrasting.pdf

Hope this makes sense.

Shabbat Shalom all

Ben Forman
DNA Research #DNA RE: Sephardi vs. Ashkenazi #dna

Ben Forman <ben.forman@...>
 

On 2008.04.30, Judy Simon <heyjude0701@...> wrote:

Two thirds of the participants who have had their Y-DNA tested so
far have been able to confirm their Sephardic history.
I previously replied privately to the orginal post re the Caro
family, but feel I should reply publically to Judy's email.

I do not know about the individual cases quaoted here, but I offer a
short note of "customer caution," a Y-DNA test cannot "prove" that
one comes >from a Sephardic lineage. The test may offer a hypothesis,
or a likelihood to work from, but DNA mutations happen over such
long periods of time, that the YDNA lineages long predate the
Ashkenaz/Sepharad split of only 1000 years or so ago.

As I said in my private post, my own YDNA result showing it to
belong in Haplogroup E, indicates a North/African Middle-Eastern
background, being Jewish and researching further I suspect that
taking a higher resolution test would place me in group E3b

Wikipedia says of group E3b:

"The spread of E3b in Europe is attributed to ancient migrations
from East Africa mediated through North African and Middle Eastern
farmers during the Neolithic period. Among Jews both in Europe and
the Middle East, E3b is the second most common Y haplogroup after J"

The Neolithic period was long befoe the Ashkenaz/Sepharad split so
the test results are not proof of Sepahardic backgound, since the
movement of my middle-eastern/North-African ancestors to Poland
could have occured anytime between 5000 and 300 years ago.

I agree with Judy that a line where all mutations between a person
of confirmed and longstanding Sephardic background and a person of
Ashkenazi background with a Sephardi surname would prove that there
was a common ancestor, but I wouldn't say that this constitutes
proof that it was a common Sephardic ancestor.

For more information here are several interesting papers availabe
online regarding Ashkenazi/Sephardi genetics, including one at
FamilyTree DNA:
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Behar_contrasting.pdf

Hope this makes sense.

Shabbat Shalom all

Ben Forman
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