Date   

Re: Pawel Hertz #general

cecilia <myths@...>
 

On 23 Sep 2010 06:23:21 -0700, martin@... wrote:
[...] booklet had been produced in 1933 by
Pawel HERTZ, then aged 14, and who
[...] survived the War in Siberia and died in
2001 without issue. Hertz says that he had family in Britain in his book
Sposob Zycie.
Does anyone out there know anything about the family tree of Pawel Hertz
and have information on his relatives in the UK, who may or may not be
called Hertz? ...
It might just possibly be relevant that the wife and/or daughters
of Heinrich Hertz (think megahertz, kilohertz etc) were in England
for some decades in the middle of the 20C (roughly mid 1830s to
mid 1970s).

See http://profiles.incredible-people.com/heinrich-rudolf-hertz/

But, unless the number of copies was very small, the presence in
England of any Polish book could have been caused by something as
trivial as a traveller's eye happening on the book by chance.

Cecilia Nyleve


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Pawel Hertz #general

cecilia <myths@...>
 

On 23 Sep 2010 06:23:21 -0700, martin@... wrote:
[...] booklet had been produced in 1933 by
Pawel HERTZ, then aged 14, and who
[...] survived the War in Siberia and died in
2001 without issue. Hertz says that he had family in Britain in his book
Sposob Zycie.
Does anyone out there know anything about the family tree of Pawel Hertz
and have information on his relatives in the UK, who may or may not be
called Hertz? ...
It might just possibly be relevant that the wife and/or daughters
of Heinrich Hertz (think megahertz, kilohertz etc) were in England
for some decades in the middle of the 20C (roughly mid 1830s to
mid 1970s).

See http://profiles.incredible-people.com/heinrich-rudolf-hertz/

But, unless the number of copies was very small, the presence in
England of any Polish book could have been caused by something as
trivial as a traveller's eye happening on the book by chance.

Cecilia Nyleve


Re: ligitimate/illegitimate in birth registration in Hungary/ Romania #hungary

gary@...
 

I agree with Tom that it would be interesting to study the records; however,
the comment that "most records have a father's name" is not true at least
with the Miskolc records.

All Miskolc births >from 1836-1895 have been indexed. There are a total of
869 births (out of 22,380) marked as "illegitimate". Of those, only 44 have
a father's name listed and most of these are noted "állítólag" or
"allegedly" next to the father's name. Realize that Miskolc records have
duplicate registers for the same year so the true numbers will be less for
all cases when filtered.

I just thought some numeric data may aid in the discussion.

Gary Deutsch
Roswell, Georgia, USA

DEUTSCH, WEISS - Miskolc, Hungary
ROTH - Nagy Ida, Hungary
GREENSTEIN - Lithuania
BALINER - Zinkov, Ukraine
ROSENGARTEN - Warsaw, Poland
PECKERAR - Faleshty, Bessarabia
QUELLER, HOLLINGER - Storozhinets, Bukovina
WIDOFSKY - Pukhovichi, Belarus


Moderator: Please see H-SIG message archives for recent messages on this topic.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: ligitimate/illegitimate in birth registration in Hungary/ Romania #hungary

gary@...
 

I agree with Tom that it would be interesting to study the records; however,
the comment that "most records have a father's name" is not true at least
with the Miskolc records.

All Miskolc births >from 1836-1895 have been indexed. There are a total of
869 births (out of 22,380) marked as "illegitimate". Of those, only 44 have
a father's name listed and most of these are noted "állítólag" or
"allegedly" next to the father's name. Realize that Miskolc records have
duplicate registers for the same year so the true numbers will be less for
all cases when filtered.

I just thought some numeric data may aid in the discussion.

Gary Deutsch
Roswell, Georgia, USA

DEUTSCH, WEISS - Miskolc, Hungary
ROTH - Nagy Ida, Hungary
GREENSTEIN - Lithuania
BALINER - Zinkov, Ukraine
ROSENGARTEN - Warsaw, Poland
PECKERAR - Faleshty, Bessarabia
QUELLER, HOLLINGER - Storozhinets, Bukovina
WIDOFSKY - Pukhovichi, Belarus


Moderator: Please see H-SIG message archives for recent messages on this topic.


Re: Illegitimate Births in Hungary #hungary

roe kard
 

On Sep 20, 2010, at 11:04 PM, H-SIG digest wrote:

Re: Illegitimate Births in Hungary
I have been working with Christian genealogical records >from a town in
current Ukraine and found that so many of the women with occupation
defined as "maid" bore so large a percentage of the births registered
as "illegitimate," that I started checking each time I came across an
illegitimate birth even though that was not the subject of my
research. I know that within the Jewish world of the early 20th
century becoming a house maid was considered a very undesirable
occupation. Maybe this is the reason why - "Maris Eyin" - the Jewish
concept of concern with the way things looked to outsiders i.e. if you
were a housemaid, an aspersion could be cast on you vis a vis your
chastity?

Shana Tova - Chag Sameach.

karen roekard
aka Gitel Chaye Eta Rosenfeld Rokart


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Illegitimate Births in Hungary #hungary

roe kard
 

On Sep 20, 2010, at 11:04 PM, H-SIG digest wrote:

Re: Illegitimate Births in Hungary
I have been working with Christian genealogical records >from a town in
current Ukraine and found that so many of the women with occupation
defined as "maid" bore so large a percentage of the births registered
as "illegitimate," that I started checking each time I came across an
illegitimate birth even though that was not the subject of my
research. I know that within the Jewish world of the early 20th
century becoming a house maid was considered a very undesirable
occupation. Maybe this is the reason why - "Maris Eyin" - the Jewish
concept of concern with the way things looked to outsiders i.e. if you
were a housemaid, an aspersion could be cast on you vis a vis your
chastity?

Shana Tova - Chag Sameach.

karen roekard
aka Gitel Chaye Eta Rosenfeld Rokart


Re: ligitimate/illegitimate in birth registration in Hungary/ Romania #hungary

samara99@...
 

I support what Ilan and John said. A good many of these illegitimate births
were to woman employed as maids. They are illegitimate, not just
non-registered.

If one looks closely at the registers, a high proportion of the mothers are
from areas relatively distant >from where the birth occurred, and the age of
the mother is given, which is rarely true for the mothers in legitimate
births. In addition, many of these single mothers are described as "hajadon'
or single, unmarried girl.

Someone - I forget who - indicated that during this late 19th century
period, maids were frequently considered the "property" of the head of
household and were treated as such.

Sam Schleman
Project Coordinator
Hungarian Vital Records Project
----- Original Message -----
From: "tom" <tomk@...>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 9:06 AM
Subject: Re:[h-sig] Re: ligitimate/illegitimate in birth registration in
Hungary/ Romania


"sexual exploitation" on that scale, and declared publicly in official
registers (this is still the victorian period), doesn't sound right to me,
especially if there is a much simpler explanation (that poorer people were
less likely to be able to afford the cost of civil registration).

it would be interesting to study those records, and to try to trace the
fathers, for example. one would expect a different pattern to emerge >from
truly illegitimate births versus bureaucratic ones. i think most records
have a father's name, so it should be possible to check for a marriage
record, and possibly a date. and also to look for other births by the
same mother (and father). it is unlikely that many disgraced maids would
be allowed to stay on and bear more children to the same philandering man.
i think it's much more likely that a "working woman" was just another
indicator of poverty.

the significantly high rate that you mention can also be a reflection of
socio-economic status, as the inverse relationship between birth rate and
standard of living is well documented. so if the rich were having fewer
children and not having trouble registering them, this is exactly the
pattern that you would expect to emerge. in fact, if you could identify
the records by economic status alone, you might find that as much as half
of the poorest class are registered as "illegitimate", which just doesn't
make sense for the jewish community as a whole. (especially in light of
the the religious stigma of being a "mamzer", and remembering that these
"civil" registers were actually maintained by the religious communities at
that time.)


....... tom klein, toronto


ilan.kozma@... wrote:

I know that what Tom wrote is almost a consensus
But, when I was transcribing Budapest records >from the 1870-1880's
there was an a enormous amount of births registered is illegal,(More
than 15%) and when I checked the profession of the mother in those
cases, it is almost always a cseled (Maid), otherwise it was a factory
worker. So it seems to me that the births were actually illegal, and
mostly a result of sexual exploitation. Also a much larger percentage
of these children died at birth and immediately after than was in
legitimate births, indicating poverty or worse.
Ilan Kozma
Tel Aviv


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Re:Re: ligitimate/illegitimate in birth registration in Hungary/ Romania #hungary

samara99@...
 

I support what Ilan and John said. A good many of these illegitimate births
were to woman employed as maids. They are illegitimate, not just
non-registered.

If one looks closely at the registers, a high proportion of the mothers are
from areas relatively distant >from where the birth occurred, and the age of
the mother is given, which is rarely true for the mothers in legitimate
births. In addition, many of these single mothers are described as "hajadon'
or single, unmarried girl.

Someone - I forget who - indicated that during this late 19th century
period, maids were frequently considered the "property" of the head of
household and were treated as such.

Sam Schleman
Project Coordinator
Hungarian Vital Records Project
----- Original Message -----
From: "tom" <tomk@...>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 9:06 AM
Subject: Re:[h-sig] Re: ligitimate/illegitimate in birth registration in
Hungary/ Romania


"sexual exploitation" on that scale, and declared publicly in official
registers (this is still the victorian period), doesn't sound right to me,
especially if there is a much simpler explanation (that poorer people were
less likely to be able to afford the cost of civil registration).

it would be interesting to study those records, and to try to trace the
fathers, for example. one would expect a different pattern to emerge >from
truly illegitimate births versus bureaucratic ones. i think most records
have a father's name, so it should be possible to check for a marriage
record, and possibly a date. and also to look for other births by the
same mother (and father). it is unlikely that many disgraced maids would
be allowed to stay on and bear more children to the same philandering man.
i think it's much more likely that a "working woman" was just another
indicator of poverty.

the significantly high rate that you mention can also be a reflection of
socio-economic status, as the inverse relationship between birth rate and
standard of living is well documented. so if the rich were having fewer
children and not having trouble registering them, this is exactly the
pattern that you would expect to emerge. in fact, if you could identify
the records by economic status alone, you might find that as much as half
of the poorest class are registered as "illegitimate", which just doesn't
make sense for the jewish community as a whole. (especially in light of
the the religious stigma of being a "mamzer", and remembering that these
"civil" registers were actually maintained by the religious communities at
that time.)


....... tom klein, toronto


ilan.kozma@... wrote:

I know that what Tom wrote is almost a consensus
But, when I was transcribing Budapest records >from the 1870-1880's
there was an a enormous amount of births registered is illegal,(More
than 15%) and when I checked the profession of the mother in those
cases, it is almost always a cseled (Maid), otherwise it was a factory
worker. So it seems to me that the births were actually illegal, and
mostly a result of sexual exploitation. Also a much larger percentage
of these children died at birth and immediately after than was in
legitimate births, indicating poverty or worse.
Ilan Kozma
Tel Aviv


Re: SHULSTEIN #general

Marcella S
 

SHULSTEIN NY Incoming 1909
According to his Naturalization Application Samuel SHULSTEIN/SCHULSTEIN arrived
in NY >from Hamburg on the K A Victoria May 22 1909. He was >from Lisovik Russia,
17/18 years old and married to wife Anna (Nechi Hecht?)
I cannot find them on the passenger list for this voyage -any suggestions/comments
will be very much appreciated
Thx
Marcella Shames


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: SHULSTEIN #general

Marcella S
 

SHULSTEIN NY Incoming 1909
According to his Naturalization Application Samuel SHULSTEIN/SCHULSTEIN arrived
in NY >from Hamburg on the K A Victoria May 22 1909. He was >from Lisovik Russia,
17/18 years old and married to wife Anna (Nechi Hecht?)
I cannot find them on the passenger list for this voyage -any suggestions/comments
will be very much appreciated
Thx
Marcella Shames


Genealogy Presentation October 3, 2010 at JCC of Fairfield County-Connecticut #general

sacredsisters3@aol.com <sacredsisters3@...>
 

Hello All

If you live in Fairfield County Connecticut, then this would
benefit you. It's a presentation on how to start your genealogy and
the speakers own experience. It's being held at the JCC at 4200 Park
Avenue in Bridgeport-CT at 10:15


Sarah Greenberg(USA)
sacredsisters3@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Genealogy Presentation October 3, 2010 at JCC of Fairfield County-Connecticut #general

sacredsisters3@aol.com <sacredsisters3@...>
 

Hello All

If you live in Fairfield County Connecticut, then this would
benefit you. It's a presentation on how to start your genealogy and
the speakers own experience. It's being held at the JCC at 4200 Park
Avenue in Bridgeport-CT at 10:15


Sarah Greenberg(USA)
sacredsisters3@...


Sand Hill cemetery #general

Rae Melnick Barent
 

Does anyone know anything about this cemetery near Akron, Ohio? Is there
someone I can contact about burials in 1942 and 1963?


Rae Melnick Barent
Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Researching: ALPERN-Radauti, Romania;
ROSENBERG- Slobotzia-Comoresti, Romania;
RAFULOVICI - Romania
HERER- Vicovu de Sus, Romania
YOURMOLNEK - Gardeshewka, Ukraine


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Sand Hill cemetery #general

Rae Melnick Barent
 

Does anyone know anything about this cemetery near Akron, Ohio? Is there
someone I can contact about burials in 1942 and 1963?


Rae Melnick Barent
Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Researching: ALPERN-Radauti, Romania;
ROSENBERG- Slobotzia-Comoresti, Romania;
RAFULOVICI - Romania
HERER- Vicovu de Sus, Romania
YOURMOLNEK - Gardeshewka, Ukraine


seeking Rosa NAGEL, probably in New York #general

robert fraser <rwfgjf@...>
 

Dear Genners -

Thanks to services provided by various Genners and organisations including
the Hebrew Free Burial Association, German Genealogy Group etc, I have
finally located my great-uncle Sigmund NAGEL, buried in Mout Richmond cemetery,
Staten Island, New York and have many photos of his grave. I also found his son
and daughter-in-law in a different cemetery. But I'm still stumped by his wife
Rosa.

I'm not at all experienced in the use of the various US resources; this is
what little I know:

Rosa Amalia NAGEL migrated to NY in 1940, and was widowed a few months
later. She was naturalised as a US citizen on Dec 17 1945 (aged 64y), and
gave a Park Avenue address. She was later (don't know how much later)
reported to be at the Waldorf-Astoria (?hotel,?apartment). I have
obtained many of her documents, US naturalisation etc, but nothing that
might indicate her death. And nothing has so far turned up via a well-known
free database.

I've checked all available free death and cemetery databases that I can
find, including those of the JGS-NY and the German Genealogy Group (which
has excellent and most useful databases). Nothing sounds likely, although I
have ordered a 'possible' >from City of New York. The dates are different,
but one never knows.

No doubt I've missed a great deal.

It passes my understanding that a person could die in New York (I have
assumed that she remained in New York) and leave no record. Can anyone point
me in a likely direction?

Robert Fraser
Perth, Western Australia


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen seeking Rosa NAGEL, probably in New York #general

robert fraser <rwfgjf@...>
 

Dear Genners -

Thanks to services provided by various Genners and organisations including
the Hebrew Free Burial Association, German Genealogy Group etc, I have
finally located my great-uncle Sigmund NAGEL, buried in Mout Richmond cemetery,
Staten Island, New York and have many photos of his grave. I also found his son
and daughter-in-law in a different cemetery. But I'm still stumped by his wife
Rosa.

I'm not at all experienced in the use of the various US resources; this is
what little I know:

Rosa Amalia NAGEL migrated to NY in 1940, and was widowed a few months
later. She was naturalised as a US citizen on Dec 17 1945 (aged 64y), and
gave a Park Avenue address. She was later (don't know how much later)
reported to be at the Waldorf-Astoria (?hotel,?apartment). I have
obtained many of her documents, US naturalisation etc, but nothing that
might indicate her death. And nothing has so far turned up via a well-known
free database.

I've checked all available free death and cemetery databases that I can
find, including those of the JGS-NY and the German Genealogy Group (which
has excellent and most useful databases). Nothing sounds likely, although I
have ordered a 'possible' >from City of New York. The dates are different,
but one never knows.

No doubt I've missed a great deal.

It passes my understanding that a person could die in New York (I have
assumed that she remained in New York) and leave no record. Can anyone point
me in a likely direction?

Robert Fraser
Perth, Western Australia


KAUPER and ISAACS families in the Neterlands, c. 1837 #general

Laurel Presser
 

Hello fellow researchers,

I'm trying to help a friend who is relatively new to the world of genealogy, has
just begun researching the Jewish side of her family, and is trying to find some
information about some ancestors who were supposedly born in the Netherlands.
This is the only information that she has:

John ISAACS and Adele KAUPER were married in approximately 1837, supposedly in
Holland and perhaps in Reusel De Mierdan, Noord Brebant. Their eldest child,
Abraham, was also believed to have been born in the Netherlands. John would
have been about 23 years old and Adele about 21 at the time of their marriage.
Abraham would have been born between 1837-1838.

By the time of the 1841 UK census the family is living in England, and their
second child, 1-year-old Emanuel, had been born in England. The family remained
in England after that.

My friend has also been told that Adele was said to have been an opera singer,
but she has no idea if this is true.

Not much information to go on, I'm afraid. She has tried looking at websites
that relate to Dutch genealogy, but has not yet had any success is finding
information.

Any guidance, suggestions, or actual information about this family would be
greatly appreciated.

Laurel Presser
Manalapan, New Jersey


Mt. Moriah Cemetery, Fair View, NJ #general

Alan Steinfeld
 

Hi,
I need a photograph of a gravestone at Mount Moriah Cemetery in Fair
View, NJ. If you can help, please contact me privately.

Alan Steinfeld
alansteinfeld@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen KAUPER and ISAACS families in the Neterlands, c. 1837 #general

Laurel Presser
 

Hello fellow researchers,

I'm trying to help a friend who is relatively new to the world of genealogy, has
just begun researching the Jewish side of her family, and is trying to find some
information about some ancestors who were supposedly born in the Netherlands.
This is the only information that she has:

John ISAACS and Adele KAUPER were married in approximately 1837, supposedly in
Holland and perhaps in Reusel De Mierdan, Noord Brebant. Their eldest child,
Abraham, was also believed to have been born in the Netherlands. John would
have been about 23 years old and Adele about 21 at the time of their marriage.
Abraham would have been born between 1837-1838.

By the time of the 1841 UK census the family is living in England, and their
second child, 1-year-old Emanuel, had been born in England. The family remained
in England after that.

My friend has also been told that Adele was said to have been an opera singer,
but she has no idea if this is true.

Not much information to go on, I'm afraid. She has tried looking at websites
that relate to Dutch genealogy, but has not yet had any success is finding
information.

Any guidance, suggestions, or actual information about this family would be
greatly appreciated.

Laurel Presser
Manalapan, New Jersey


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Mt. Moriah Cemetery, Fair View, NJ #general

Alan Steinfeld
 

Hi,
I need a photograph of a gravestone at Mount Moriah Cemetery in Fair
View, NJ. If you can help, please contact me privately.

Alan Steinfeld
alansteinfeld@...