I support what Ilan and John said. A good many of these illegitimate births
were to woman employed as maids. They are illegitimate, not just
non-registered.

If one looks closely at the registers, a high proportion of the mothers are

from areas relatively distant >from where the birth occurred, and the age of

the mother is given, which is rarely true for the mothers in legitimate
births. In addition, many of these single mothers are described as "hajadon'
or single, unmarried girl.

Someone - I forget who - indicated that during this late 19th century
period, maids were frequently considered the "property" of the head of
household and were treated as such.

Sam Schleman
Project Coordinator
Hungarian Vital Records Project
----- Original Message -----
From: "tom" <tomk@...>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 9:06 AM
Subject: Re:[h-sig] Re: ligitimate/illegitimate in birth registration in
Hungary/ Romania

"sexual exploitation" on that scale, and declared publicly in official
registers (this is still the victorian period), doesn't sound right to me,
especially if there is a much simpler explanation (that poorer people were
less likely to be able to afford the cost of civil registration).

it would be interesting to study those records, and to try to trace the
fathers, for example. one would expect a different pattern to emerge >from
truly illegitimate births versus bureaucratic ones. i think most records
have a father's name, so it should be possible to check for a marriage
record, and possibly a date. and also to look for other births by the
same mother (and father). it is unlikely that many disgraced maids would
be allowed to stay on and bear more children to the same philandering man.
i think it's much more likely that a "working woman" was just another
indicator of poverty.

the significantly high rate that you mention can also be a reflection of
socio-economic status, as the inverse relationship between birth rate and
standard of living is well documented. so if the rich were having fewer
children and not having trouble registering them, this is exactly the
pattern that you would expect to emerge. in fact, if you could identify
the records by economic status alone, you might find that as much as half
of the poorest class are registered as "illegitimate", which just doesn't
make sense for the jewish community as a whole. (especially in light of
the the religious stigma of being a "mamzer", and remembering that these
"civil" registers were actually maintained by the religious communities at
that time.)


....... tom klein, toronto

ilan.kozma@... wrote:

I know that what Tom wrote is almost a consensus
But, when I was transcribing Budapest records >from the 1870-1880's
there was an a enormous amount of births registered is illegal,(More
than 15%) and when I checked the profession of the mother in those
cases, it is almost always a cseled (Maid), otherwise it was a factory
worker. So it seems to me that the births were actually illegal, and
mostly a result of sexual exploitation. Also a much larger percentage
of these children died at birth and immediately after than was in
legitimate births, indicating poverty or worse.
Ilan Kozma
Tel Aviv

I support what Ilan and John said. A good many of these illegitimate births
were to woman employed as maids. They are illegitimate, not just
non-registered.

If one looks closely at the registers, a high proportion of the mothers are

from areas relatively distant >from where the birth occurred, and the age of

the mother is given, which is rarely true for the mothers in legitimate
births. In addition, many of these single mothers are described as "hajadon'
or single, unmarried girl.

Someone - I forget who - indicated that during this late 19th century
period, maids were frequently considered the "property" of the head of
household and were treated as such.

Sam Schleman
Project Coordinator
Hungarian Vital Records Project
----- Original Message -----
From: "tom" <tomk@...>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 9:06 AM
Subject: Re:[h-sig] Re: ligitimate/illegitimate in birth registration in
Hungary/ Romania

"sexual exploitation" on that scale, and declared publicly in official
registers (this is still the victorian period), doesn't sound right to me,
especially if there is a much simpler explanation (that poorer people were
less likely to be able to afford the cost of civil registration).

it would be interesting to study those records, and to try to trace the
fathers, for example. one would expect a different pattern to emerge >from
truly illegitimate births versus bureaucratic ones. i think most records
have a father's name, so it should be possible to check for a marriage
record, and possibly a date. and also to look for other births by the
same mother (and father). it is unlikely that many disgraced maids would
be allowed to stay on and bear more children to the same philandering man.
i think it's much more likely that a "working woman" was just another
indicator of poverty.

the significantly high rate that you mention can also be a reflection of
socio-economic status, as the inverse relationship between birth rate and
standard of living is well documented. so if the rich were having fewer
children and not having trouble registering them, this is exactly the
pattern that you would expect to emerge. in fact, if you could identify
the records by economic status alone, you might find that as much as half
of the poorest class are registered as "illegitimate", which just doesn't
make sense for the jewish community as a whole. (especially in light of
the the religious stigma of being a "mamzer", and remembering that these
"civil" registers were actually maintained by the religious communities at
that time.)


....... tom klein, toronto

ilan.kozma@... wrote:

I know that what Tom wrote is almost a consensus
But, when I was transcribing Budapest records >from the 1870-1880's
there was an a enormous amount of births registered is illegal,(More
than 15%) and when I checked the profession of the mother in those
cases, it is almost always a cseled (Maid), otherwise it was a factory
worker. So it seems to me that the births were actually illegal, and
mostly a result of sexual exploitation. Also a much larger percentage
of these children died at birth and immediately after than was in
legitimate births, indicating poverty or worse.
Ilan Kozma
Tel Aviv

SHULSTEIN NY Incoming 1909
According to his Naturalization Application Samuel SHULSTEIN/SCHULSTEIN arrived
in NY >from Hamburg on the K A Victoria May 22 1909. He was >from Lisovik Russia,
17/18 years old and married to wife Anna (Nechi Hecht?)
I cannot find them on the passenger list for this voyage -any suggestions/comments
will be very much appreciated
Thx
Marcella Shames

SHULSTEIN NY Incoming 1909
According to his Naturalization Application Samuel SHULSTEIN/SCHULSTEIN arrived
in NY >from Hamburg on the K A Victoria May 22 1909. He was >from Lisovik Russia,
17/18 years old and married to wife Anna (Nechi Hecht?)
I cannot find them on the passenger list for this voyage -any suggestions/comments
will be very much appreciated
Thx
Marcella Shames

Hello All

If you live in Fairfield County Connecticut, then this would
benefit you. It's a presentation on how to start your genealogy and
the speakers own experience. It's being held at the JCC at 4200 Park
Avenue in Bridgeport-CT at 10:15


Sarah Greenberg(USA)
sacredsisters3@...

Hello All

If you live in Fairfield County Connecticut, then this would
benefit you. It's a presentation on how to start your genealogy and
the speakers own experience. It's being held at the JCC at 4200 Park
Avenue in Bridgeport-CT at 10:15


Sarah Greenberg(USA)
sacredsisters3@...

Does anyone know anything about this cemetery near Akron, Ohio? Is there
someone I can contact about burials in 1942 and 1963?


Rae Melnick Barent
Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Researching: ALPERN-Radauti, Romania;
ROSENBERG- Slobotzia-Comoresti, Romania;
RAFULOVICI - Romania
HERER- Vicovu de Sus, Romania
YOURMOLNEK - Gardeshewka, Ukraine

Does anyone know anything about this cemetery near Akron, Ohio? Is there
someone I can contact about burials in 1942 and 1963?


Rae Melnick Barent
Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Researching: ALPERN-Radauti, Romania;
ROSENBERG- Slobotzia-Comoresti, Romania;
RAFULOVICI - Romania
HERER- Vicovu de Sus, Romania
YOURMOLNEK - Gardeshewka, Ukraine

Dear Genners -

Thanks to services provided by various Genners and organisations including
the Hebrew Free Burial Association, German Genealogy Group etc, I have
finally located my great-uncle Sigmund NAGEL, buried in Mout Richmond cemetery,
Staten Island, New York and have many photos of his grave. I also found his son
and daughter-in-law in a different cemetery. But I'm still stumped by his wife
Rosa.

I'm not at all experienced in the use of the various US resources; this is
what little I know:

Rosa Amalia NAGEL migrated to NY in 1940, and was widowed a few months
later. She was naturalised as a US citizen on Dec 17 1945 (aged 64y), and
gave a Park Avenue address. She was later (don't know how much later)
reported to be at the Waldorf-Astoria (?hotel,?apartment). I have
obtained many of her documents, US naturalisation etc, but nothing that
might indicate her death. And nothing has so far turned up via a well-known
free database.

I've checked all available free death and cemetery databases that I can
find, including those of the JGS-NY and the German Genealogy Group (which
has excellent and most useful databases). Nothing sounds likely, although I
have ordered a 'possible' >from City of New York. The dates are different,
but one never knows.

No doubt I've missed a great deal.

It passes my understanding that a person could die in New York (I have
assumed that she remained in New York) and leave no record. Can anyone point
me in a likely direction?

Robert Fraser
Perth, Western Australia

Dear Genners -

Thanks to services provided by various Genners and organisations including
the Hebrew Free Burial Association, German Genealogy Group etc, I have
finally located my great-uncle Sigmund NAGEL, buried in Mout Richmond cemetery,
Staten Island, New York and have many photos of his grave. I also found his son
and daughter-in-law in a different cemetery. But I'm still stumped by his wife
Rosa.

I'm not at all experienced in the use of the various US resources; this is
what little I know:

Rosa Amalia NAGEL migrated to NY in 1940, and was widowed a few months
later. She was naturalised as a US citizen on Dec 17 1945 (aged 64y), and
gave a Park Avenue address. She was later (don't know how much later)
reported to be at the Waldorf-Astoria (?hotel,?apartment). I have
obtained many of her documents, US naturalisation etc, but nothing that
might indicate her death. And nothing has so far turned up via a well-known
free database.

I've checked all available free death and cemetery databases that I can
find, including those of the JGS-NY and the German Genealogy Group (which
has excellent and most useful databases). Nothing sounds likely, although I
have ordered a 'possible' >from City of New York. The dates are different,
but one never knows.

No doubt I've missed a great deal.

It passes my understanding that a person could die in New York (I have
assumed that she remained in New York) and leave no record. Can anyone point
me in a likely direction?

Robert Fraser
Perth, Western Australia

Hello fellow researchers,

I'm trying to help a friend who is relatively new to the world of genealogy, has
just begun researching the Jewish side of her family, and is trying to find some
information about some ancestors who were supposedly born in the Netherlands.
This is the only information that she has:

John ISAACS and Adele KAUPER were married in approximately 1837, supposedly in
Holland and perhaps in Reusel De Mierdan, Noord Brebant. Their eldest child,
Abraham, was also believed to have been born in the Netherlands. John would
have been about 23 years old and Adele about 21 at the time of their marriage.
Abraham would have been born between 1837-1838.

By the time of the 1841 UK census the family is living in England, and their
second child, 1-year-old Emanuel, had been born in England. The family remained
in England after that.

My friend has also been told that Adele was said to have been an opera singer,
but she has no idea if this is true.

Not much information to go on, I'm afraid. She has tried looking at websites
that relate to Dutch genealogy, but has not yet had any success is finding
information.

Any guidance, suggestions, or actual information about this family would be
greatly appreciated.

Laurel Presser
Manalapan, New Jersey

Hi,
I need a photograph of a gravestone at Mount Moriah Cemetery in Fair
View, NJ. If you can help, please contact me privately.

Alan Steinfeld
alansteinfeld@...

Hello fellow researchers,

I'm trying to help a friend who is relatively new to the world of genealogy, has
just begun researching the Jewish side of her family, and is trying to find some
information about some ancestors who were supposedly born in the Netherlands.
This is the only information that she has:

John ISAACS and Adele KAUPER were married in approximately 1837, supposedly in
Holland and perhaps in Reusel De Mierdan, Noord Brebant. Their eldest child,
Abraham, was also believed to have been born in the Netherlands. John would
have been about 23 years old and Adele about 21 at the time of their marriage.
Abraham would have been born between 1837-1838.

By the time of the 1841 UK census the family is living in England, and their
second child, 1-year-old Emanuel, had been born in England. The family remained
in England after that.

My friend has also been told that Adele was said to have been an opera singer,
but she has no idea if this is true.

Not much information to go on, I'm afraid. She has tried looking at websites
that relate to Dutch genealogy, but has not yet had any success is finding
information.

Any guidance, suggestions, or actual information about this family would be
greatly appreciated.

Laurel Presser
Manalapan, New Jersey

Hi,
I need a photograph of a gravestone at Mount Moriah Cemetery in Fair
View, NJ. If you can help, please contact me privately.

Alan Steinfeld
alansteinfeld@...

I am wondering if anyone has the images of "Deportation List of Migration
Transport 27" of 14 June 1942 >from Vienna?

According to Yad Va'Shem, the images are available >from the US Holocaust
Museum. I was not able to find them online and I thought I would ask here
prior to writing USHMM to request it.

The list is 35 pages in alphabetical order; I am seeking an image of the
page with FANIA (FEIGA) TRACHTENBERG (deportation date as per the Yad Vashem
POT filed by her late son in 1993).

Ittai Hershman

I am wondering if anyone has the images of "Deportation List of Migration
Transport 27" of 14 June 1942 >from Vienna?

According to Yad Va'Shem, the images are available >from the US Holocaust
Museum. I was not able to find them online and I thought I would ask here
prior to writing USHMM to request it.

The list is 35 pages in alphabetical order; I am seeking an image of the
page with FANIA (FEIGA) TRACHTENBERG (deportation date as per the Yad Vashem
POT filed by her late son in 1993).

Ittai Hershman

A reminder for those of you living in the Los Angeles area:

Next week, the Jewish Genealogical Society of Los Angeles will present an
evening with Lisa Kudrow, who will screen her episode of the new US genealogical
television series, "Who Do You Think You Are?"

A lively Q & A will take place after the screening where Ms. Kudrow will be
joined by two producer/researchers >from the show, Alexandra Orton and Anna
Kirkwood.

Tuesday, September 28, 2010 - 7:30PM
Magnin Auditorium, Skirball Cultural Center
2701 N. Sepulveda Blvd. Los Angeles 90049

Reservations are required. RSVP to programs@...

Members are free, guests $5. Door prize provided by Ancestry. com! Complete
details available at: http://www.jgsla.org/Mtg_2010-09-28.htm

Pamela Weisberger
Program Chair, JGSLA
Santa Monica, CA
pweisberger@...
http://www.jgsla.org

A reminder for those of you living in the Los Angeles area:

Next week, the Jewish Genealogical Society of Los Angeles will present an
evening with Lisa Kudrow, who will screen her episode of the new US genealogical
television series, "Who Do You Think You Are?"

A lively Q & A will take place after the screening where Ms. Kudrow will be
joined by two producer/researchers >from the show, Alexandra Orton and Anna
Kirkwood.

Tuesday, September 28, 2010 - 7:30PM
Magnin Auditorium, Skirball Cultural Center
2701 N. Sepulveda Blvd. Los Angeles 90049

Reservations are required. RSVP to programs@...

Members are free, guests $5. Door prize provided by Ancestry. com! Complete
details available at: http://www.jgsla.org/Mtg_2010-09-28.htm

Pamela Weisberger
Program Chair, JGSLA
Santa Monica, CA
pweisberger@...
http://www.jgsla.org

I would like to thank all those who responded to my recent quiry about the name
REINHARDT. I have responded to individuals privately, but want to remind
everyone how wonderful our groups are at helping each other. Thank you!

Elizabeth Jackson, Muskegon, Michigan, USA cattheater@...

I would like to thank all those who responded to my recent quiry about the name
REINHARDT. I have responded to individuals privately, but want to remind
everyone how wonderful our groups are at helping each other. Thank you!

Elizabeth Jackson, Muskegon, Michigan, USA cattheater@...