From: Emily Garber <emilyhgarber@gmail.com>
Joseph Forsyth <joeforsyth@shaw.ca> wrote:

Between 1827 and 1856 all Jewish boys except the first born were
conscripted into the army for 31 years.
I am researching a tale of a man who gave each of his 5 sons a different
name and, presumably, bribed the local conscription officer to brief
officials about these "only sons". The names I know are Gurstein,
Poshtar, Dudick and Boslik - the 5th remains a mystery..
If anyone has information about this practice or about these names,
please let me know. The Gurstein line is the one I am researching but
the others are also of interest. This family probably lived in Volhynia
Province, perhaps in Bilohirya or Belozerka.

I have been researching a similar story in my family: the four
brother's names were Utchenik, Garber, Reznik and (I was told) Lehman
(but it was likely Lederman). I began my research with something
completely different in mind - finding the relationship between my
family and a woman named on a manifest.

My research (which may be followed through 12 posts, thus far, in a
series on my blog) led me back to this seeming family bubba meintza. I
am still not ready to say it's true, but via DNA testing and
exhaustive traditional genealogical research I have successfully
linked my Garber males to Lederman males who share the exact same
Y-DNA at the 37 marker level of testing.

Where I may diverge >from the family story is causation. While I can
prove that my great grandfather Avraham Abba Garber was the brother of
Levi Yitzchak Lederman, I am not prepared to say this was due to
avoidance of conscription. In the nineteenth century Russian Empire
there were places where Jews likely did not adopt surnames until well
into mid-century. It may have had little to do with avoidance of
conscription.

Certainly, popular information among Jewish genealogists regarding the
length of Russian military service and the Jewish experience in the
service is overblown. It does not take into consideration the fact
that rules of conscription were not monolithic. The role of the kahal
and the character and length of service changed through time in the
Russian Empire. I suggest you read Yohanan Petrovsky-Shtern's book
"Jews in the Russian Army, 1827-1917." He has completed extensive
research in formerly closed archival records and has been able to
refute some notions about Jews in the military.

I am actually quite satisfied that I did not pursue this line of
research at the outset in order to prove the tale. That type of
research would likely not be based on solid genealogical methods. I
firmly believe that these stories should only be pursued when they are
ripe. By that I mean, when research into other questions lead you
inexorably back to the story.

For those interested in my series on this research, the first post was:
http://extrayad.blogspot.com/2012/07/avrums-women-part-2-feiga-grinfeld.html
The most recent post is:
http://extrayad.blogspot.com/2015/02/avrums-women-part-13-bond-of-brothers.html

From: Emily Garber <emilyhgarber@gmail.com>
Joseph Forsyth <joeforsyth@shaw.ca> wrote:

Between 1827 and 1856 all Jewish boys except the first born were
conscripted into the army for 31 years.
I am researching a tale of a man who gave each of his 5 sons a different
name and, presumably, bribed the local conscription officer to brief
officials about these "only sons". The names I know are Gurstein,
Poshtar, Dudick and Boslik - the 5th remains a mystery..
If anyone has information about this practice or about these names,
please let me know. The Gurstein line is the one I am researching but
the others are also of interest. This family probably lived in Volhynia
Province, perhaps in Bilohirya or Belozerka.

I have been researching a similar story in my family: the four
brother's names were Utchenik, Garber, Reznik and (I was told) Lehman
(but it was likely Lederman). I began my research with something
completely different in mind - finding the relationship between my
family and a woman named on a manifest.

My research (which may be followed through 12 posts, thus far, in a
series on my blog) led me back to this seeming family bubba meintza. I
am still not ready to say it's true, but via DNA testing and
exhaustive traditional genealogical research I have successfully
linked my Garber males to Lederman males who share the exact same
Y-DNA at the 37 marker level of testing.

Where I may diverge >from the family story is causation. While I can
prove that my great grandfather Avraham Abba Garber was the brother of
Levi Yitzchak Lederman, I am not prepared to say this was due to
avoidance of conscription. In the nineteenth century Russian Empire
there were places where Jews likely did not adopt surnames until well
into mid-century. It may have had little to do with avoidance of
conscription.

Certainly, popular information among Jewish genealogists regarding the
length of Russian military service and the Jewish experience in the
service is overblown. It does not take into consideration the fact
that rules of conscription were not monolithic. The role of the kahal
and the character and length of service changed through time in the
Russian Empire. I suggest you read Yohanan Petrovsky-Shtern's book
"Jews in the Russian Army, 1827-1917." He has completed extensive
research in formerly closed archival records and has been able to
refute some notions about Jews in the military.

I am actually quite satisfied that I did not pursue this line of
research at the outset in order to prove the tale. That type of
research would likely not be based on solid genealogical methods. I
firmly believe that these stories should only be pursued when they are
ripe. By that I mean, when research into other questions lead you
inexorably back to the story.

For those interested in my series on this research, the first post was:
http://extrayad.blogspot.com/2012/07/avrums-women-part-2-feiga-grinfeld.html
The most recent post is:
http://extrayad.blogspot.com/2015/02/avrums-women-part-13-bond-of-brothers.html

From: Ellen B Barbieri elsal@cox.net

The only Murray SIMON in Mount Carmel Cemetery is in 5 -C- 359- #2.
Lists date of death unknown & no society.

...call the cemetery office and ask for more details.
They may have either the date of death or the date of burial in their
paper records. I recently called one of the cemeteries and questioned
them about a similar situation. They not only called me back in an hour
with the date of death but said they were going to correct the online
database.

The office should also be able to tell you if that is a family plot or a
society or ......

If the person you speak to is sympathetic (tell them you are calling

from California so you can not visit, etc.) they might help you with some

more information. They might have a record of who said for the plot
or the burial. They might tell you if there is any indication of next of
kin.

If they say oh we can not tell you that you can say well I think it
should be his father ..... and sometimes they will confirm. If they
still refuse say well he was single so if it is a wife or child I do
not think it would be right person and they might give you some details.

The cemetery would have required a burial permit if it was in fact an
out of state death but the problem is they don't keep them. You could
ask if they have any record of either the stone company or the funeral
home for the burial.

From: Ellen B Barbieri elsal@cox.net

The only Murray SIMON in Mount Carmel Cemetery is in 5 -C- 359- #2.
Lists date of death unknown & no society.

...call the cemetery office and ask for more details.
They may have either the date of death or the date of burial in their
paper records. I recently called one of the cemeteries and questioned
them about a similar situation. They not only called me back in an hour
with the date of death but said they were going to correct the online
database.

The office should also be able to tell you if that is a family plot or a
society or ......

If the person you speak to is sympathetic (tell them you are calling

from California so you can not visit, etc.) they might help you with some

more information. They might have a record of who said for the plot
or the burial. They might tell you if there is any indication of next of
kin.

If they say oh we can not tell you that you can say well I think it
should be his father ..... and sometimes they will confirm. If they
still refuse say well he was single so if it is a wife or child I do
not think it would be right person and they might give you some details.

The cemetery would have required a burial permit if it was in fact an
out of state death but the problem is they don't keep them. You could
ask if they have any record of either the stone company or the funeral
home for the burial.

Both Sally and and Eva are right and both are wrong…..

It is traditional, even today, for most Jews of Ashkenazic descent not to
name after living relatives. That said — it is tradition, not law — and it
varies >from family to family and with the level of religious observance…
While the vast majority of Eastern European Jews named children for the
deceased, others, especially in Germany and those of ‘liberal,” “modern”
Reform bent, aped the Christian practice of naming a child for a living
relative and created the custom of II and III, etc.

Now, Sephardic practice is to name a child after a living relative, altho
usually not after its parent…..

That said…. one must not use absolutes -i.e. never, always,

Eva Karoline Lawrence wrote:
I believe that Sally Bruckheimer has inadvertently got Eastern and Western
Jewish European practices the wrong way round. My mother >from Germany, (ie
Western Europe) was annoyed when her daughter-in-law with Galician roots
gave her name to one of her grandchildren -

Both Sally and and Eva are right and both are wrong…..

It is traditional, even today, for most Jews of Ashkenazic descent not to
name after living relatives. That said — it is tradition, not law — and it
varies >from family to family and with the level of religious observance…
While the vast majority of Eastern European Jews named children for the
deceased, others, especially in Germany and those of ‘liberal,” “modern”
Reform bent, aped the Christian practice of naming a child for a living
relative and created the custom of II and III, etc.

Now, Sephardic practice is to name a child after a living relative, altho
usually not after its parent…..

That said…. one must not use absolutes -i.e. never, always,

Eva Karoline Lawrence wrote:
I believe that Sally Bruckheimer has inadvertently got Eastern and Western
Jewish European practices the wrong way round. My mother >from Germany, (ie
Western Europe) was annoyed when her daughter-in-law with Galician roots
gave her name to one of her grandchildren -