Date   

Patronymic Interpretation #ukraine

K. & L. Bertelsen <leah9knud@...>
 

Dear All

Many thanks to everyone who answered my query. I did think that all
three names were derived >from the same source, but didn't understand (or
know enough)
to work out why this happened or if all their ancestors were the same
man? Perhaps they were cousins, or half-brothers - and hence the
differentiation ??

I will be writing to each of you who responded to me separately to
thank you.

One person referred to the Odessa census documents. I have the one for
my GGGF, Perets b. Yakublevich for 1894, but not for the others listed.
Can anyone please tell me are these Odessa census documents available
online anywhere?
Of course with the difficult political situation it may not be possible
anyway to do much more research.

Again, many thanks to everyone who replied. I really do appreciate it.

Lorraine Bertelsen
Boho, Downunder


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Patronymic Interpretation #ukraine

K. & L. Bertelsen <leah9knud@...>
 

Dear All

Many thanks to everyone who answered my query. I did think that all
three names were derived >from the same source, but didn't understand (or
know enough)
to work out why this happened or if all their ancestors were the same
man? Perhaps they were cousins, or half-brothers - and hence the
differentiation ??

I will be writing to each of you who responded to me separately to
thank you.

One person referred to the Odessa census documents. I have the one for
my GGGF, Perets b. Yakublevich for 1894, but not for the others listed.
Can anyone please tell me are these Odessa census documents available
online anywhere?
Of course with the difficult political situation it may not be possible
anyway to do much more research.

Again, many thanks to everyone who replied. I really do appreciate it.

Lorraine Bertelsen
Boho, Downunder


Alexander Granach, actor, aka Jessaja Gronoch from Werbowitz, Galicia - Viewmate I.D. #germany

Pamela Weisberger
 

I've uploaded a photograph to Viewmate of a group of actors circa
1930s to see if the people in the picture can be identified.

It is at: http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM35333

In the center of the photo is the actor, Alexander Granach, who was
born Jessaja Szajko Gronoch in Werbowitz (Wierzbowce/ Werbiwci)
Eastern Galicia, near Horodenka in 1890. His life story echos the
title of one of his books, ">from the Shtetl to the Stage: The Odyssey
of a Wandering Actor."

Being part of a large (poor) family, as a teenager he ran away from
home and apprenticed as a baker, moving >from town to town. Ending up
in Lemberg (Lwow) he saw his first play which inspired him to become
an actor. By the age of 16 he was in Berlin, then London and Vienna,
both acting in Yiddish theatre (where he acquired his stage name) and
being a practicing anarchist. He fled to the Soviet Union when Hitler
came to power and when that country proved inhospitable, he settled in
Hollywood, where he appeared in such films as the Ernst Lubitch
classic, "Ninotchka," and "For Whom the Bell Tolls." (He also
convincingly played both Nazis and loyal anti-fascists.) He died in
1945 in New York. (If you are curious about his life, check out the
Widipedia page and his books, still available for sale.)

This photo is of him with his actor's troupe, possibly taken in
Kolomea (the word "Kolomea" is on it) in 1934. Some of their names are
written on the photograph in English and Hebrew and we'd like to
identify who they were, their fates, and to locate their descendants,
on behalf of Angelika Wittlich, one of the producers of the film:
"Granach: >from Shtetl to Stage," which was shown at the 2014 IAJGS
Conference. (His son, Gad Granach, immigrated to British Mandate of
Palestine in 1936 and published a memoir entitled Where is Home?
Stories >from the Life of a German-Jewish Emigre." ) Although
identified as a "German actor," Alexansder Granach was born a
Galitzianer!)

The names in English on the page (with best attempts to decipher the
handwriting) are:

Gisala Herman,
Tonka
Jakob Eisner
Rosa Kretz
Eibely__
Zimmedferton Zimmer
Aron Fetcher

The men and woman appear to be in their 20s - 50s. If you know any of
the names or recognize the faces, please contact me privately.

Pamela Weisberger, Santa Monica, Calif. pweisberger@gmail.com


German SIG #Germany Alexander Granach, actor, aka Jessaja Gronoch from Werbowitz, Galicia - Viewmate I.D. #germany

Pamela Weisberger
 

I've uploaded a photograph to Viewmate of a group of actors circa
1930s to see if the people in the picture can be identified.

It is at: http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM35333

In the center of the photo is the actor, Alexander Granach, who was
born Jessaja Szajko Gronoch in Werbowitz (Wierzbowce/ Werbiwci)
Eastern Galicia, near Horodenka in 1890. His life story echos the
title of one of his books, ">from the Shtetl to the Stage: The Odyssey
of a Wandering Actor."

Being part of a large (poor) family, as a teenager he ran away from
home and apprenticed as a baker, moving >from town to town. Ending up
in Lemberg (Lwow) he saw his first play which inspired him to become
an actor. By the age of 16 he was in Berlin, then London and Vienna,
both acting in Yiddish theatre (where he acquired his stage name) and
being a practicing anarchist. He fled to the Soviet Union when Hitler
came to power and when that country proved inhospitable, he settled in
Hollywood, where he appeared in such films as the Ernst Lubitch
classic, "Ninotchka," and "For Whom the Bell Tolls." (He also
convincingly played both Nazis and loyal anti-fascists.) He died in
1945 in New York. (If you are curious about his life, check out the
Widipedia page and his books, still available for sale.)

This photo is of him with his actor's troupe, possibly taken in
Kolomea (the word "Kolomea" is on it) in 1934. Some of their names are
written on the photograph in English and Hebrew and we'd like to
identify who they were, their fates, and to locate their descendants,
on behalf of Angelika Wittlich, one of the producers of the film:
"Granach: >from Shtetl to Stage," which was shown at the 2014 IAJGS
Conference. (His son, Gad Granach, immigrated to British Mandate of
Palestine in 1936 and published a memoir entitled Where is Home?
Stories >from the Life of a German-Jewish Emigre." ) Although
identified as a "German actor," Alexansder Granach was born a
Galitzianer!)

The names in English on the page (with best attempts to decipher the
handwriting) are:

Gisala Herman,
Tonka
Jakob Eisner
Rosa Kretz
Eibely__
Zimmedferton Zimmer
Aron Fetcher

The men and woman appear to be in their 20s - 50s. If you know any of
the names or recognize the faces, please contact me privately.

Pamela Weisberger, Santa Monica, Calif. pweisberger@gmail.com


AKM Index of Musicians Found- Red-Lined Out Jewish Composers #austria-czech

Jan Meisels Allen
 

Sharla Levine inquired about the article that was included in the August 27
Austria-Czech SIG Discussion List about the AKM Index of Musicians Found-
Red-Lined Out Jewish Composers.

Included in my posting was the paragraph about the OREL Foundation which
includes a link to the images located at the url listed below:

"Shapreau also wrote an article posted to the website of the OREL
Foundation* in Los Angeles that includes the images of the AKM index." The
images may be viewed at: http://tinyurl.com/lcnrpxu

Original url:
http://orel.pmhclients.com/images/articles/AKMSTAGMA_Blacklist_City_of_Vienn
a_Library_Shapreau.pdf


Jan Meisels Allen
Chairperson, IAJGS Public Records Access Monitoring Committee


ViewMate file # 35372 #austria-czech

Nehama and Moshe Kutten
 

Subj: ViewMate translation request - German


I've posted a vital postcard >from my grandfather in German for which I need
a translation. It is on ViewMate at the following address ...


http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM35372


Please respond via the form provided in the ViewMate application.


Thank you very much.


Moshe Kutten


Palacky university #austria-czech

rein@...
 

Hi,

Palacky university did not exist in that time, there was only a theological
faculty. The University was in 1860 canceled and continued only >from 1946.

Regards Vilem Reinoehl


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech AKM Index of Musicians Found- Red-Lined Out Jewish Composers #austria-czech

Jan Meisels Allen
 

Sharla Levine inquired about the article that was included in the August 27
Austria-Czech SIG Discussion List about the AKM Index of Musicians Found-
Red-Lined Out Jewish Composers.

Included in my posting was the paragraph about the OREL Foundation which
includes a link to the images located at the url listed below:

"Shapreau also wrote an article posted to the website of the OREL
Foundation* in Los Angeles that includes the images of the AKM index." The
images may be viewed at: http://tinyurl.com/lcnrpxu

Original url:
http://orel.pmhclients.com/images/articles/AKMSTAGMA_Blacklist_City_of_Vienn
a_Library_Shapreau.pdf


Jan Meisels Allen
Chairperson, IAJGS Public Records Access Monitoring Committee


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech ViewMate file # 35372 #austria-czech

Nehama and Moshe Kutten
 

Subj: ViewMate translation request - German


I've posted a vital postcard >from my grandfather in German for which I need
a translation. It is on ViewMate at the following address ...


http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM35372


Please respond via the form provided in the ViewMate application.


Thank you very much.


Moshe Kutten


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Palacky university #austria-czech

rein@...
 

Hi,

Palacky university did not exist in that time, there was only a theological
faculty. The University was in 1860 canceled and continued only >from 1946.

Regards Vilem Reinoehl


Younger age listing #lithuania

Ken Frieden <kfrieden@...>
 

I think that when my grandfather immigrated in 1913, the family had a good
reason to list his age a couple years younger than he was: so that he could
study in high school without being considered overage.

Ken Frieden

B. G. Rudolph Professor of Judaic Studies
Tolley Humanities Building
Syracuse University
Syracuse, NY 13244
________________________________________


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subject: Revision list dates
From: "David W. Perle" <dwperle@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 12:22:25 -0400
X-Message-Number: 1

Matthew Rosenberg posted about revision list entries for his family which
predate when [he believes that] they were born, wondering about errors
in transcription.

While possible, I think that it's more likely that the believed dates
of their birth are probably wrong. I've also come across this sort of
thing, a great-grandfather of mine in particular. A few U.S. records
after he immigrated here consistently provide his age/year of birth
in Lithuania, but then I found two or three Lithuanian revision lists
showing him as having been something like 5 years older!

Explanations for why people become "younger" after immigrating vary.
One is that people just didn't always actually know their ages or dates
of birth, so they guessed that bit when they immigrated to a place like
the U.S. where that's a bureaucratic stat that's asked of them. Another
explanation is that women in particular--especially Lithuanian--were
very vain about age and kept their ages lower, and their husbands did
the same just so that they wouldn't "be" so much older than their wives!

I've concluded that my great-grandfather was *probably* a few years older
than his family ever knew. In the end...who knows!

David Perle
Washington, DC


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Younger age listing #lithuania

Ken Frieden <kfrieden@...>
 

I think that when my grandfather immigrated in 1913, the family had a good
reason to list his age a couple years younger than he was: so that he could
study in high school without being considered overage.

Ken Frieden

B. G. Rudolph Professor of Judaic Studies
Tolley Humanities Building
Syracuse University
Syracuse, NY 13244
________________________________________


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subject: Revision list dates
From: "David W. Perle" <dwperle@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 12:22:25 -0400
X-Message-Number: 1

Matthew Rosenberg posted about revision list entries for his family which
predate when [he believes that] they were born, wondering about errors
in transcription.

While possible, I think that it's more likely that the believed dates
of their birth are probably wrong. I've also come across this sort of
thing, a great-grandfather of mine in particular. A few U.S. records
after he immigrated here consistently provide his age/year of birth
in Lithuania, but then I found two or three Lithuanian revision lists
showing him as having been something like 5 years older!

Explanations for why people become "younger" after immigrating vary.
One is that people just didn't always actually know their ages or dates
of birth, so they guessed that bit when they immigrated to a place like
the U.S. where that's a bureaucratic stat that's asked of them. Another
explanation is that women in particular--especially Lithuanian--were
very vain about age and kept their ages lower, and their husbands did
the same just so that they wouldn't "be" so much older than their wives!

I've concluded that my great-grandfather was *probably* a few years older
than his family ever knew. In the end...who knows!

David Perle
Washington, DC


Re: Revision list dates #lithuania

Rita or Paul Gordon <prg202@...>
 

Message for David Perle : Check the Census records in the community
where he lived. Maryland
Census Records are good.

Rita Simon Gordon
prg202@comcast.net

-----Original Message-----
From: LitvakSIG digest
Subject: Revision list dates
From: "David W. Perle" <dwperle@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 12:22:25 -0400
X-Message-Number: 1

Matthew Rosenberg posted about revision list entries for his family which
predate when [he believes that] they were born, wondering about errors
in transcription.

While possible, I think that it's more likely that the believed dates
of their birth are probably wrong. I've also come across this sort of
thing, a great-grandfather of mine in particular. A few U.S. records
after he immigrated here consistently provide his age/year of birth
in Lithuania, but then I found two or three Lithuanian revision lists
showing him as having been something like 5 years older!

Explanations for why people become "younger" after immigrating vary.
One is that people just didn't always actually know their ages or dates
of birth, so they guessed that bit when they immigrated to a place like
the U.S. where that's a bureaucratic stat that's asked of them. Another
explanation is that women in particular--especially Lithuanian--were
very vain about age and kept their ages lower, and their husbands did
the same just so that they wouldn't "be" so much older than their wives!

I've concluded that my great-grandfather was *probably* a few years older
than his family ever knew. In the end...who knows!

David Perle
Washington, DC


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Re: Revision list dates #lithuania

Rita or Paul Gordon <prg202@...>
 

Message for David Perle : Check the Census records in the community
where he lived. Maryland
Census Records are good.

Rita Simon Gordon
prg202@comcast.net

-----Original Message-----
From: LitvakSIG digest
Subject: Revision list dates
From: "David W. Perle" <dwperle@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 12:22:25 -0400
X-Message-Number: 1

Matthew Rosenberg posted about revision list entries for his family which
predate when [he believes that] they were born, wondering about errors
in transcription.

While possible, I think that it's more likely that the believed dates
of their birth are probably wrong. I've also come across this sort of
thing, a great-grandfather of mine in particular. A few U.S. records
after he immigrated here consistently provide his age/year of birth
in Lithuania, but then I found two or three Lithuanian revision lists
showing him as having been something like 5 years older!

Explanations for why people become "younger" after immigrating vary.
One is that people just didn't always actually know their ages or dates
of birth, so they guessed that bit when they immigrated to a place like
the U.S. where that's a bureaucratic stat that's asked of them. Another
explanation is that women in particular--especially Lithuanian--were
very vain about age and kept their ages lower, and their husbands did
the same just so that they wouldn't "be" so much older than their wives!

I've concluded that my great-grandfather was *probably* a few years older
than his family ever knew. In the end...who knows!

David Perle
Washington, DC


revision list dates #lithuania

Tamar Dothan <dothan-t@...>
 

I also believe the earlier recorded dates of birth are more reliable.
Interestingly enough, I don't remember a case in which the ages provided in
the New Countries [U.S. or Argentina] were older than the dates provided in
the Old Country. In many cases in my family people said after immigration
they were younger than the original records stated. I think many people
believed that they had better chances of getting work if they were younger.

Tamar Dothan
Jerusalem, Israel


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania revision list dates #lithuania

Tamar Dothan <dothan-t@...>
 

I also believe the earlier recorded dates of birth are more reliable.
Interestingly enough, I don't remember a case in which the ages provided in
the New Countries [U.S. or Argentina] were older than the dates provided in
the Old Country. In many cases in my family people said after immigration
they were younger than the original records stated. I think many people
believed that they had better chances of getting work if they were younger.

Tamar Dothan
Jerusalem, Israel


Record Dates on Revision Lists #lithuania

Fred Millner <flmillner@...>
 

Hi, Matthew,



My ancestor'd family shows a similar problem with revision list
dates.

In my case, it is clear that the later-born children were added later.
The specific date of the revision list with my grandfather, 6-year old
Fayvish Milner, is 1887 (no day or month). His cousin Nakhemia is
shown as two years old (correct). Then Honel is shown with no age,
and a note, born in 1887. Then Chaim is shown with no ag=e, and a
note, born 29 July 1892. Two other children are added in the same
way, as being born after 1887. In your case, I think that since the
children show no ages, they were added after the revision was taken.
The census-taker, however, did not note when they were actually born.

Of course, in your case not even the head of household has an age
shown. But my point is that at least in some cases, additions could
be made to the document after the original date of the revision.

Incidentally, the Russian records all show my grandfather as being
born somewhere in the 1880-82 period. My grandfather always said it
was 1880. But when he got married in 1911, he entered his age as 32!
I think his celebrated birthday was always an approximate.

Congratulations on the find! It is always thrilling.

Yours,

Fred Millner


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Record Dates on Revision Lists #lithuania

Fred Millner <flmillner@...>
 

Hi, Matthew,



My ancestor'd family shows a similar problem with revision list
dates.

In my case, it is clear that the later-born children were added later.
The specific date of the revision list with my grandfather, 6-year old
Fayvish Milner, is 1887 (no day or month). His cousin Nakhemia is
shown as two years old (correct). Then Honel is shown with no age,
and a note, born in 1887. Then Chaim is shown with no ag=e, and a
note, born 29 July 1892. Two other children are added in the same
way, as being born after 1887. In your case, I think that since the
children show no ages, they were added after the revision was taken.
The census-taker, however, did not note when they were actually born.

Of course, in your case not even the head of household has an age
shown. But my point is that at least in some cases, additions could
be made to the document after the original date of the revision.

Incidentally, the Russian records all show my grandfather as being
born somewhere in the 1880-82 period. My grandfather always said it
was 1880. But when he got married in 1911, he entered his age as 32!
I think his celebrated birthday was always an approximate.

Congratulations on the find! It is always thrilling.

Yours,

Fred Millner


Re: Revision list dates #lithuania

David Ellis
 

David Perle writes about his g-gf's birth date:

I think that it's more likely that the believed dates of their birth
are probably wrong....
A few U.S. records after he immigrated here consistently provide his
age/year of birth in Lithuania, but then I found two or three Lithuanian
revision lists showing him as having been something like 5 years
older!

My experience is similar, but I came to a different conclusion. My g-gf was
listed on a variety of US records (census, naturalization, death) with an
age implying he was born in 1851 or 1852. The 1858 revision list from
Lithuania shows his age as 9, implying a birth in 1849. But the previous
revision list, >from 1850-1851, showed his parents as married with no
children. So in this particular case I would give more credence to his
birth date being 1851 or 1852.


------
David J Ellis
Natick, MA 01760
djemkitso@verizon.net


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania RE: Revision list dates #lithuania

David Ellis
 

David Perle writes about his g-gf's birth date:

I think that it's more likely that the believed dates of their birth
are probably wrong....
A few U.S. records after he immigrated here consistently provide his
age/year of birth in Lithuania, but then I found two or three Lithuanian
revision lists showing him as having been something like 5 years
older!

My experience is similar, but I came to a different conclusion. My g-gf was
listed on a variety of US records (census, naturalization, death) with an
age implying he was born in 1851 or 1852. The 1858 revision list from
Lithuania shows his age as 9, implying a birth in 1849. But the previous
revision list, >from 1850-1851, showed his parents as married with no
children. So in this particular case I would give more credence to his
birth date being 1851 or 1852.


------
David J Ellis
Natick, MA 01760
djemkitso@verizon.net

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