Date   

Re: Name Changes- Manifest creation - and England #belarus

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Thanks to those of you who have written and pointed out that proof
wasn't needed as to where the immigrant was going, and that false or
fanciful information was given - and accepted.

Bob Bogash's clarification of the manifest creation was really
interesting, and explained many of the crossing-outs I'd often
wondered about and blamed on tired or sloppy EI clerks. Obviously, it
was tired/sloppy European shipline clerks who should be blamed. And
he confirms that it was an American form, separate >from the European
one.

Several people asked about the English outgoing manifests. Here are
some answers in my own experience.

Information:
The only one I've seen in detail is the 1900 English one mentioned in
my original post. It didn't give as much information as the American
form. The categories did include age and occupation, and the Ticket
Number, which is how I learned that many people, including my
g-uncle, travelled ongroup tickets purchased by an agency and sold
piecemeal to the number of emigrants it would cover.

The manifest gave last residence, but if your ancestors had stayed in
England for anytime, it is that residence, not the shtetl or
gubernia, that will be registered.

Availability:
Someone else has mentioned the presumed lack of English emigration
records. It's immigration -to- England >from the Continent that was
not recorded: "passenger lists for ships whose voyages both began
and ended with Europe (including the UK and the Mediterranean) are
not included."

But the PRO has the -outgoing- records >from 1890-1960. There are no
indexes. (Yet?) You need some idea as to the year and port >from which
they sailed. The Information Sheet I have lists this resource under:
Domestic Records Information 56, "Passenger Lists, Outwards", BT27 -
"all passengers leaving the UK, where the ship's eventual destination
was a port outside Europe and the Mediterranean Sea."

There is also a partial collection of Passenger Lists for 1906-1951.

I believe you can order a paid search if you give them certain
criteria or information.

All of these information sheets, references and collections (not the
actual data) are on their website: www.pro.gov.uk


Michelle Frager
Metro NY


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: Name Changes- Manifest creation - and England #belarus

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Thanks to those of you who have written and pointed out that proof
wasn't needed as to where the immigrant was going, and that false or
fanciful information was given - and accepted.

Bob Bogash's clarification of the manifest creation was really
interesting, and explained many of the crossing-outs I'd often
wondered about and blamed on tired or sloppy EI clerks. Obviously, it
was tired/sloppy European shipline clerks who should be blamed. And
he confirms that it was an American form, separate >from the European
one.

Several people asked about the English outgoing manifests. Here are
some answers in my own experience.

Information:
The only one I've seen in detail is the 1900 English one mentioned in
my original post. It didn't give as much information as the American
form. The categories did include age and occupation, and the Ticket
Number, which is how I learned that many people, including my
g-uncle, travelled ongroup tickets purchased by an agency and sold
piecemeal to the number of emigrants it would cover.

The manifest gave last residence, but if your ancestors had stayed in
England for anytime, it is that residence, not the shtetl or
gubernia, that will be registered.

Availability:
Someone else has mentioned the presumed lack of English emigration
records. It's immigration -to- England >from the Continent that was
not recorded: "passenger lists for ships whose voyages both began
and ended with Europe (including the UK and the Mediterranean) are
not included."

But the PRO has the -outgoing- records >from 1890-1960. There are no
indexes. (Yet?) You need some idea as to the year and port >from which
they sailed. The Information Sheet I have lists this resource under:
Domestic Records Information 56, "Passenger Lists, Outwards", BT27 -
"all passengers leaving the UK, where the ship's eventual destination
was a port outside Europe and the Mediterranean Sea."

There is also a partial collection of Passenger Lists for 1906-1951.

I believe you can order a paid search if you give them certain
criteria or information.

All of these information sheets, references and collections (not the
actual data) are on their website: www.pro.gov.uk


Michelle Frager
Metro NY


Re: belarus digest: January 02, 2003 #belarus

Linda Fefferman
 

A Happy New Year to Everyone,
During a recent visit with a distant cousin in Chicago, Illinois, we learned that my husband's grandmother Dora RASIM b.c. 1882(md. Froim PFEFFERMAN / FEFFERMAN of Koden, Lublin, Poland) she of Brest, Belarus (Poland / White Russia), daughter of Israel Yale RASIM (spelling?), had mentioned years ago to this cousin that she/they had had a summer house in what sounded like "Otucki".
I have looked but can not seem to find anything that appears to connect to a place called Otucky / Otucki. I would really appreciate any help, suggestions or information any of you might be able to share with me, in learning about and the possible location of this place.
Thank you for your kind assistance,
Sincerely,
Linda FEFFERMAN
Cathedral City, Calif.
FLFeff@aol.com


Re: Arrival Manifests - "Going to" information query #belarus

SJR1126935@...
 

Michelle-

from my review of the Passenger Manifests that I have looked at in
researching my maternal grandfather and grandmother [ they came on different
ship in 1903 ] my best guess in response to your question is that the
immigrants DID NOT have to show any documents indicating where they were
going to in the US.

That is my opinion only. Other Jenners may have different thoughts.

Shalom,

Sam Richelew
sjr1126935@aol.com

JewishGen Researcher No. 46203 researching:
RICHELEWSKI, RISHELEWSKI, RICHELEWSKY of Porozovo, Svisloch [Grodno ??]
Belarus OR [Bialystok ??] Poland
SHEVELEVICH, etc. of Porozovo, Svisloch [Grodno ??] Belarus OR
[Bialystok ??] Poland and Israel (Haifa, etc.)
MOSES, MOSESCO, MOSESCU of Piatra (Neamt ??) [Neamt ??] Romania
MARKOWITZ, MARKOVITZ, MARKOURITZ of Piatra (Neamt ??) [Neamt ??] Romania or
vicinity


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: belarus digest: January 02, 2003 #belarus

Linda Fefferman
 

A Happy New Year to Everyone,
During a recent visit with a distant cousin in Chicago, Illinois, we learned that my husband's grandmother Dora RASIM b.c. 1882(md. Froim PFEFFERMAN / FEFFERMAN of Koden, Lublin, Poland) she of Brest, Belarus (Poland / White Russia), daughter of Israel Yale RASIM (spelling?), had mentioned years ago to this cousin that she/they had had a summer house in what sounded like "Otucki".
I have looked but can not seem to find anything that appears to connect to a place called Otucky / Otucki. I would really appreciate any help, suggestions or information any of you might be able to share with me, in learning about and the possible location of this place.
Thank you for your kind assistance,
Sincerely,
Linda FEFFERMAN
Cathedral City, Calif.
FLFeff@aol.com


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: Arrival Manifests - "Going to" information query #belarus

SJR1126935@...
 

Michelle-

from my review of the Passenger Manifests that I have looked at in
researching my maternal grandfather and grandmother [ they came on different
ship in 1903 ] my best guess in response to your question is that the
immigrants DID NOT have to show any documents indicating where they were
going to in the US.

That is my opinion only. Other Jenners may have different thoughts.

Shalom,

Sam Richelew
sjr1126935@aol.com

JewishGen Researcher No. 46203 researching:
RICHELEWSKI, RISHELEWSKI, RICHELEWSKY of Porozovo, Svisloch [Grodno ??]
Belarus OR [Bialystok ??] Poland
SHEVELEVICH, etc. of Porozovo, Svisloch [Grodno ??] Belarus OR
[Bialystok ??] Poland and Israel (Haifa, etc.)
MOSES, MOSESCO, MOSESCU of Piatra (Neamt ??) [Neamt ??] Romania
MARKOWITZ, MARKOVITZ, MARKOURITZ of Piatra (Neamt ??) [Neamt ??] Romania or
vicinity


Re: Belarus calendar #belarus

Erwnclmn@...
 

Is this calendar available to the public . If so, where and how. Thanks,
Erwin Coleman


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: Belarus calendar #belarus

Erwnclmn@...
 

Is this calendar available to the public . If so, where and how. Thanks,
Erwin Coleman


Re: Rashi's gravesite #rabbinic

Chaim freedman
 

On 2003.01.02, "Ginsburg, Paul" <GinsburgP@state.gov> asked:

Why don't we know where Rashi is buried? We know that it is
probably somewhere in France. Wouldn't it be a safe assumption
to think he was buried in the last town/village he lived in? "
27 years ago I was in Troyes, France and sought any remnants of
Rashi's connection to the place. I was told that many years ago
his traditional tomb existed in a cemetery there, but it was
subsequently lost when a sport stadium was built on the site. This
may simply be a legend but perhaps some of our French genealogists
have heard the story.

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
mailto:chaimjan@zahav.net.il


Rabbinic Genealogy SIG #Rabbinic Re: Rashi's gravesite #rabbinic

Chaim freedman
 

On 2003.01.02, "Ginsburg, Paul" <GinsburgP@state.gov> asked:

Why don't we know where Rashi is buried? We know that it is
probably somewhere in France. Wouldn't it be a safe assumption
to think he was buried in the last town/village he lived in? "
27 years ago I was in Troyes, France and sought any remnants of
Rashi's connection to the place. I was told that many years ago
his traditional tomb existed in a cemetery there, but it was
subsequently lost when a sport stadium was built on the site. This
may simply be a legend but perhaps some of our French genealogists
have heard the story.

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
mailto:chaimjan@zahav.net.il


Arrival Manifests - "Going to" information query #belarus

SMRogers <smrogers@...>
 

Subject: [belarus] Arrival Manifests - "Going to" information query
Does anyone know whether the information recorded as to where/who the
immigrant was going had to be verified by the immigrant's
presentation of a document?
Thanks. Michelle Frager - Metro NY
Not always. My grandfather's destination was the name of the person behind
him in line, on the manifest!

Susan M. Rogers
Researching UBERSTINE of Gorodok, Vileika District, Belarus


Belarus SIG #Belarus Arrival Manifests - "Going to" information query #belarus

SMRogers <smrogers@...>
 

Subject: [belarus] Arrival Manifests - "Going to" information query
Does anyone know whether the information recorded as to where/who the
immigrant was going had to be verified by the immigrant's
presentation of a document?
Thanks. Michelle Frager - Metro NY
Not always. My grandfather's destination was the name of the person behind
him in line, on the manifest!

Susan M. Rogers
Researching UBERSTINE of Gorodok, Vileika District, Belarus


Forged messages .... #latvia

Elsebeth Paikin
 

Carol W. Skydell, Vice President, JewishGen Special Projects, have sent
out the follwoing warning:

There are messages circulating that try to make it appear as if they
are coming >from the JewishGen Discussion Group. These are forgeries
and contain a vi*rus in an attachment..

Please note that the messages are **not** coming >from
JewishGen@lyris.jewishgen.org
but from
jewishgen@mybluelight.com
which could also be forged.

We've said it before, we will say it again
JewishGen does **not** send attachments.
There is no way that our systems can send vi*ruses, all outgoing mail
is screened.

If you are using the internet without vi*rus protection on your system,
you are living dangerously. Is this the way you want to start 2003?

Let's all make certain we are protected, and that will protect all with
whom we exchange e-mail.

Best wishes for a happy, healthy and protected New Year.



Moderator of the Latvia SIG and
Scandinavia SIG mailing lists
Elsebeth Paikin, Copenhagen, Denmark

e-mail: elsebeth@paikin.dk
------------------------------------


Seeking Magda Neu/Hamory #scandinavia

Susanna Vendel <susanna.vendel@...>
 

I recently received the question below >from Robert Neu, a
jewishgener >from the Hungarian Sig.
Can somebody in Sweden help him?

I have sent him the only 2 Hamory addresses existing in the
Stockholm phone directory but they turned out not having any
connection with Magda Neu.

Susanna Vendel, Stockholm
susanna.vendel@chello.se
............................................................
Finally, I also have a "Swedish request."
A cousin of my father named Magda Neu (>from Hungarian Slovakia)
survived the Holocaust and went to Sweden. She married a Mr.
Hamory and had two daughters including one named Susanna.
She was born in the early 1900's. The daughter was in Paris in
the early 70's. That is all I really know. Some of the information
actually came >from an H-sig member >from England who actually knew
Magda and was in touch with her until the early 70's.
Could you help me locate her/them?

mailto:susanna.vendel@chello.se


Latvia SIG #Latvia Forged messages .... #latvia

Elsebeth Paikin
 

Carol W. Skydell, Vice President, JewishGen Special Projects, have sent
out the follwoing warning:

There are messages circulating that try to make it appear as if they
are coming >from the JewishGen Discussion Group. These are forgeries
and contain a vi*rus in an attachment..

Please note that the messages are **not** coming >from
JewishGen@lyris.jewishgen.org
but from
jewishgen@mybluelight.com
which could also be forged.

We've said it before, we will say it again
JewishGen does **not** send attachments.
There is no way that our systems can send vi*ruses, all outgoing mail
is screened.

If you are using the internet without vi*rus protection on your system,
you are living dangerously. Is this the way you want to start 2003?

Let's all make certain we are protected, and that will protect all with
whom we exchange e-mail.

Best wishes for a happy, healthy and protected New Year.



Moderator of the Latvia SIG and
Scandinavia SIG mailing lists
Elsebeth Paikin, Copenhagen, Denmark

e-mail: elsebeth@paikin.dk
------------------------------------


Scandinavia SIG #Scandinavia Seeking Magda Neu/Hamory #scandinavia

Susanna Vendel <susanna.vendel@...>
 

I recently received the question below >from Robert Neu, a
jewishgener >from the Hungarian Sig.
Can somebody in Sweden help him?

I have sent him the only 2 Hamory addresses existing in the
Stockholm phone directory but they turned out not having any
connection with Magda Neu.

Susanna Vendel, Stockholm
susanna.vendel@chello.se
............................................................
Finally, I also have a "Swedish request."
A cousin of my father named Magda Neu (>from Hungarian Slovakia)
survived the Holocaust and went to Sweden. She married a Mr.
Hamory and had two daughters including one named Susanna.
She was born in the early 1900's. The daughter was in Paris in
the early 70's. That is all I really know. Some of the information
actually came >from an H-sig member >from England who actually knew
Magda and was in touch with her until the early 70's.
Could you help me locate her/them?

mailto:susanna.vendel@chello.se


Forged messages .... #scandinavia

Elsebeth Paikin
 

Carol W. Skydell, Vice President, JewishGen Special Projects, have sent
out the follwoing warning:

There are messages circulating that try to make it appear as if they
are coming >from the JewishGen Discussion Group. These are forgeries
and contain a vi*rus in an attachment..

Please note that the messages are **not** coming >from
JewishGen@lyris.jewishgen.org
but from
jewishgen@mybluelight.com
which could also be forged.

We've said it before, we will say it again
JewishGen does **not** send attachments.
There is no way that our systems can send vi*ruses, all outgoing mail
is screened.

If you are using the internet without vi*rus protection on your system,
you are living dangerously. Is this the way you want to start 2003?

Let's all make certain we are protected, and that will protect all with
whom we exchange e-mail.

Best wishes for a happy, healthy and protected New Year.


---------------------------------------
Elsebeth Paikin, Copenhagen, Denmark
Coordinator & webmaster of JewishGen's
SCANDINAVIA SIG
http://www.jewishgen.org/scandinavia
http://home.worldonline.dk/~epaikin/
mailto:elsebeth@paikin.dk
---------------------------------------


Scandinavia SIG #Scandinavia Forged messages .... #scandinavia

Elsebeth Paikin
 

Carol W. Skydell, Vice President, JewishGen Special Projects, have sent
out the follwoing warning:

There are messages circulating that try to make it appear as if they
are coming >from the JewishGen Discussion Group. These are forgeries
and contain a vi*rus in an attachment..

Please note that the messages are **not** coming >from
JewishGen@lyris.jewishgen.org
but from
jewishgen@mybluelight.com
which could also be forged.

We've said it before, we will say it again
JewishGen does **not** send attachments.
There is no way that our systems can send vi*ruses, all outgoing mail
is screened.

If you are using the internet without vi*rus protection on your system,
you are living dangerously. Is this the way you want to start 2003?

Let's all make certain we are protected, and that will protect all with
whom we exchange e-mail.

Best wishes for a happy, healthy and protected New Year.


---------------------------------------
Elsebeth Paikin, Copenhagen, Denmark
Coordinator & webmaster of JewishGen's
SCANDINAVIA SIG
http://www.jewishgen.org/scandinavia
http://home.worldonline.dk/~epaikin/
mailto:elsebeth@paikin.dk
---------------------------------------


Re: Nathaniel = Sandel ? #germany

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 1/3/2003 hlb@texas.net writes:

I just ran across the name Sandel in records >from Hoof, Hessen.
At first I thought it might have been "Sender" -- a common nickname for
Alexander -- but at one point it was paired with Nasaniel (Nathaniel).

=="Pairing" is the right word. In the same way that Sander/Sender is
derived >from [Alek]sander, Nathaniel (usually pronounced Nassanel) gives us
Sanel.

Diminutives of names (and nouns) vary widely through local dialects of
German and Yiddish: -lein, -le, -che, -chem, -chen, -el, -del and so on.

Someone among your acestors must have assumed that the "el" in Sanel was a
diminutive and added the d to fit in with local usage.

One common example of this false-diminutive usage is the name Menachem, a
proper Biblical name. Someone in Germany a thousand years ago thought the
-chem part was a diminutive and adapted the name to the local dialect
variety. Men[a]-chem became Men-del and ever since we've been blessed by
Menachem-Mendels in the family, and Mendelsohns in philosophy and music.

It is not unlikely, however, that some Alexanders were known as Sandel and
some Nathaniels as Sander. Names and their spellings changed rapidly be
geography and century and family preference or carelessness.

Michael Bernet, New York mbernet@aol.com


German SIG #Germany Re: Nathaniel = Sandel ? #germany

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 1/3/2003 hlb@texas.net writes:

I just ran across the name Sandel in records >from Hoof, Hessen.
At first I thought it might have been "Sender" -- a common nickname for
Alexander -- but at one point it was paired with Nasaniel (Nathaniel).

=="Pairing" is the right word. In the same way that Sander/Sender is
derived >from [Alek]sander, Nathaniel (usually pronounced Nassanel) gives us
Sanel.

Diminutives of names (and nouns) vary widely through local dialects of
German and Yiddish: -lein, -le, -che, -chem, -chen, -el, -del and so on.

Someone among your acestors must have assumed that the "el" in Sanel was a
diminutive and added the d to fit in with local usage.

One common example of this false-diminutive usage is the name Menachem, a
proper Biblical name. Someone in Germany a thousand years ago thought the
-chem part was a diminutive and adapted the name to the local dialect
variety. Men[a]-chem became Men-del and ever since we've been blessed by
Menachem-Mendels in the family, and Mendelsohns in philosophy and music.

It is not unlikely, however, that some Alexanders were known as Sandel and
some Nathaniels as Sander. Names and their spellings changed rapidly be
geography and century and family preference or carelessness.

Michael Bernet, New York mbernet@aol.com