Date   

Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Lancy
 

I don't know how the people on the Russian side of the border felt, but I
have had talks with people >from Skala Podolskaya on the Easternmost part of
Galicia, right on the Austrian side of the border, and I heard talks about
the Russian Podolians and the Austrian Podolians, including jokes about
slight differences among Podolians depending on which side they were from.

Many families had branches on both sides, matches were made over the river,
draft-dodging young men were smuggled to their relatives in Galicia, etc. I
have a hunch that they were closer to their mates >from across the river than
to areas of Galicia that were more than 50 miles away.

Shana Tova to you all!

Lancy Spalter
Kfar Tavor, Israel

----- Original Message -----

I've encountered a bit of a mystery in researching the town of Makhnovka,
which was near Berditchev. A number of people whose grandparents were from
this town reported that their grandparents thought of themselves as
Galician
and not Russian. Looking at the maps, it is clear that Makhnovka was
definitely in the Russian Empire, further east than Galicia's borders ever
went (that I know of).

I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though not
within
the official borders, because of close ties between the various towns?
Would
they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a sense
of
different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see
themselves
as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of Podolia
and
Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary guberniyas
whose
borders moved around.) Would they have thought of themselves as Russian?
Could they have thought of themselves as Galician? Was there any Ukrainian
identity? Where were the "ethnic" boundaries? (The official national
boundaries changed so much in that area, I can certainly imagine people
not
taking them as seriously as perceived ethnic boundaries.)

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA


Re: Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

There were four main Yiddish dialects (Western, Polish/Galician, Litvish,
and Ukrainian) spoken in Europe during the 19th century. Within these
broad regions, there were some local sub-dialects. By visiting the
following page on the Given Names Data Bases web site on its JewishGen web
site, you can read about the dialect which was spoken in each of the 15
countries for which there are data bases:

< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/geografc.htm >

Where these dialect regions overlapped several countries, or where some
countries were divided between two or more Yiddish dialect regions, the
appropriate boundaries are described on this page.

In a general sense, the four main dialect regions also described Jewish
cultural groupings with which those living in the region
identified. However, this type of self-identification did not keep Jews
from one dialect region >from seeking out marriage partners for their
children in another region with a different dialect and culture, in cases
where finding such a partner was difficult in their own region. So, some
admixture of dialects and cultures did occur.

Shavu'a tov,

Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Lancy
 

I don't know how the people on the Russian side of the border felt, but I
have had talks with people >from Skala Podolskaya on the Easternmost part of
Galicia, right on the Austrian side of the border, and I heard talks about
the Russian Podolians and the Austrian Podolians, including jokes about
slight differences among Podolians depending on which side they were from.

Many families had branches on both sides, matches were made over the river,
draft-dodging young men were smuggled to their relatives in Galicia, etc. I
have a hunch that they were closer to their mates >from across the river than
to areas of Galicia that were more than 50 miles away.

Shana Tova to you all!

Lancy Spalter
Kfar Tavor, Israel

----- Original Message -----

I've encountered a bit of a mystery in researching the town of Makhnovka,
which was near Berditchev. A number of people whose grandparents were from
this town reported that their grandparents thought of themselves as
Galician
and not Russian. Looking at the maps, it is clear that Makhnovka was
definitely in the Russian Empire, further east than Galicia's borders ever
went (that I know of).

I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though not
within
the official borders, because of close ties between the various towns?
Would
they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a sense
of
different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see
themselves
as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of Podolia
and
Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary guberniyas
whose
borders moved around.) Would they have thought of themselves as Russian?
Could they have thought of themselves as Galician? Was there any Ukrainian
identity? Where were the "ethnic" boundaries? (The official national
boundaries changed so much in that area, I can certainly imagine people
not
taking them as seriously as perceived ethnic boundaries.)

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine RE: Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

There were four main Yiddish dialects (Western, Polish/Galician, Litvish,
and Ukrainian) spoken in Europe during the 19th century. Within these
broad regions, there were some local sub-dialects. By visiting the
following page on the Given Names Data Bases web site on its JewishGen web
site, you can read about the dialect which was spoken in each of the 15
countries for which there are data bases:

< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/geografc.htm >

Where these dialect regions overlapped several countries, or where some
countries were divided between two or more Yiddish dialect regions, the
appropriate boundaries are described on this page.

In a general sense, the four main dialect regions also described Jewish
cultural groupings with which those living in the region
identified. However, this type of self-identification did not keep Jews
from one dialect region >from seeking out marriage partners for their
children in another region with a different dialect and culture, in cases
where finding such a partner was difficult in their own region. So, some
admixture of dialects and cultures did occur.

Shavu'a tov,

Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel


Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Dear Tom Chatt and Genners:

In my family, the self-proclaimed Litvaks (maternal side) and
Galitzianers (paternal side) came >from Belarus and Podolia
respectively. But they deeply perceived themselves in those cultural
terms - which had ceased to have geographical significance as borders
moved around. They insulted or complimented each other on those
cultural bases. Not just "pitter" v. "putter" (butter), but
intelligent versus stupid, sensitive versus unaware, well-read versus
ignorant, socially adept versus gauche klutz. I recall that among the
older folks, who'd lived in the Russian Empire for some part of their
lives, this feud sometimes was carried to remarkabl levels of emotion
that might leave scars, but happily it was more often good-natured
kibbutzing.

Also, parts of the extended Podolian family lived to the west in
Romania and Bessarabia, while the Belarus family had some roots in
"Litte" or Lithuania. So theirs was very definitely a cultural and
historic Jewish community sense, not one based on the external,
mutable, Christian borders.

Michelle Frager, NY area


--- Tom Chatt <tomchatt@earthlink.net> wrote:
<snip>
I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of
Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though
not within
the official borders, because of close ties between the various
towns? Would
they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a
sense of
different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in
traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see
themselves
as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of
Podolia and
Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe
themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary
guberniyas whose
borders moved around.)
<snip>

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA


Sense of place, sense of people -- Rabbinical traditions #ukraine

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Although rabbinical history is not my strong point, I believe there
were two very different rabbinical traditions in the two areas
(Litvak and Galitzianer). And as with any religious differences or
schisms, the conviction of unique and correct identity ran deep and
divisively between the two communities. They used different
liturgies, and the Litvak was a more intellectual approach while the
Podolian at least, if not all Galitzianer, was more mystical or
emotive. It seems to me that this, too, contributed to creating
conscientiously different cultures.

I hope someone in the SIG with better knowledge of this aspect than
mine will contribute to this discussion.


Michelle Frager NYC area


Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Tamar Dothan <dothan-t@...>
 

My grandparents were >from Dunayevtze [Dinevitz], Podolia. I grew up knowing
the family was >from Ukraine. Never heard of Podolia. In a job application in
Eretz Israel >from 1938 my grandfather wrote he was >from "Dunevtsy, in
Galitzia".

I assume that although western Ukraine became part of the Russian empire at
the end of the 18th century, after the divisions of Poland, some Jews there
still considered themselves as belonging culturally to Jewish Galitzia . Or
maybe it was more prestigious to be considered a Galitzianer?

Tamar Dothan

Jerusalem, Israel


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Dear Tom Chatt and Genners:

In my family, the self-proclaimed Litvaks (maternal side) and
Galitzianers (paternal side) came >from Belarus and Podolia
respectively. But they deeply perceived themselves in those cultural
terms - which had ceased to have geographical significance as borders
moved around. They insulted or complimented each other on those
cultural bases. Not just "pitter" v. "putter" (butter), but
intelligent versus stupid, sensitive versus unaware, well-read versus
ignorant, socially adept versus gauche klutz. I recall that among the
older folks, who'd lived in the Russian Empire for some part of their
lives, this feud sometimes was carried to remarkabl levels of emotion
that might leave scars, but happily it was more often good-natured
kibbutzing.

Also, parts of the extended Podolian family lived to the west in
Romania and Bessarabia, while the Belarus family had some roots in
"Litte" or Lithuania. So theirs was very definitely a cultural and
historic Jewish community sense, not one based on the external,
mutable, Christian borders.

Michelle Frager, NY area


--- Tom Chatt <tomchatt@earthlink.net> wrote:
<snip>
I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of
Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though
not within
the official borders, because of close ties between the various
towns? Would
they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a
sense of
different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in
traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see
themselves
as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of
Podolia and
Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe
themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary
guberniyas whose
borders moved around.)
<snip>

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Sense of place, sense of people -- Rabbinical traditions #ukraine

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Although rabbinical history is not my strong point, I believe there
were two very different rabbinical traditions in the two areas
(Litvak and Galitzianer). And as with any religious differences or
schisms, the conviction of unique and correct identity ran deep and
divisively between the two communities. They used different
liturgies, and the Litvak was a more intellectual approach while the
Podolian at least, if not all Galitzianer, was more mystical or
emotive. It seems to me that this, too, contributed to creating
conscientiously different cultures.

I hope someone in the SIG with better knowledge of this aspect than
mine will contribute to this discussion.


Michelle Frager NYC area


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Tamar Dothan <dothan-t@...>
 

My grandparents were >from Dunayevtze [Dinevitz], Podolia. I grew up knowing
the family was >from Ukraine. Never heard of Podolia. In a job application in
Eretz Israel >from 1938 my grandfather wrote he was >from "Dunevtsy, in
Galitzia".

I assume that although western Ukraine became part of the Russian empire at
the end of the 18th century, after the divisions of Poland, some Jews there
still considered themselves as belonging culturally to Jewish Galitzia . Or
maybe it was more prestigious to be considered a Galitzianer?

Tamar Dothan

Jerusalem, Israel


Re: Joffe's of Libau #latvia

Robin Joffe <jofferobin@...>
 

Does anyone know or have any knowledge of the Joffe's in Libau. My
grandfather Nathan came to America in 1908. He was born in Libau we
believe in 1891 or 1892. Any info about the name of the village is
appreciated.

Thanks
Robin Joffe


Latvia SIG #Latvia RE: Joffe's of Libau #latvia

Robin Joffe <jofferobin@...>
 

Does anyone know or have any knowledge of the Joffe's in Libau. My
grandfather Nathan came to America in 1908. He was born in Libau we
believe in 1891 or 1892. Any info about the name of the village is
appreciated.

Thanks
Robin Joffe


Re: The names Moussia and Masha #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

Judy Ford wrote:

Has any one thought that Masha can be the female for Moshe.HEBREW
(Mem Shin Hey = Moshe Mem Shin Hay with a _ under the Hay you've got
Masha)

Oops! May I say that I sincerely hope *not*! I wouldn't wish
anyone to enter the forthcoming season of penitence bearing a
grammatical sin like that on his or her shoulders! Besides, it
wouldn't be vocalized with the "patah" vowel you represented here, it
would require a qamatz vowel!

More importantly: Speaking traditionally (and even historically),
there is absolutley no record of a feminine version of the name
Moshe(h); and speaking grammatically, it would have to be not
MAsha(h) but MOsha(h) because that is how Hebrew forms the feminine
of a word whose third root letter is heh.

To offer an obvious biblical analogy, Mosheh was a ro'eh (meaning
shepherd -- >from the root resh ayin heh) but his predecessor in that
occupation, the matriarch Rahel, was a ro'ah!

Judith Romney Wegner


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: The names Moussia and Masha #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

Judy Ford wrote:

Has any one thought that Masha can be the female for Moshe.HEBREW
(Mem Shin Hey = Moshe Mem Shin Hay with a _ under the Hay you've got
Masha)

Oops! May I say that I sincerely hope *not*! I wouldn't wish
anyone to enter the forthcoming season of penitence bearing a
grammatical sin like that on his or her shoulders! Besides, it
wouldn't be vocalized with the "patah" vowel you represented here, it
would require a qamatz vowel!

More importantly: Speaking traditionally (and even historically),
there is absolutley no record of a feminine version of the name
Moshe(h); and speaking grammatically, it would have to be not
MAsha(h) but MOsha(h) because that is how Hebrew forms the feminine
of a word whose third root letter is heh.

To offer an obvious biblical analogy, Mosheh was a ro'eh (meaning
shepherd -- >from the root resh ayin heh) but his predecessor in that
occupation, the matriarch Rahel, was a ro'ah!

Judith Romney Wegner


Siberia #general

Angie Elfassi
 

How would I go about researching Jewish history of
Tomsk, Siberia >from approx. 1880?

Thanks
Angie Elfassi
Yehud, Israel

=====
Searching:
REICHZELIGMAN/RICHMAN, Stakliskes, Lithuania/Leeds
COHEN, Sakiai, Lithuania/Leeds
MAGIDOWITZ, Jurbarkas, Lithuania/Leeds
KASSIMOFF, Rezekne, Latvia/Leeds


come see some pictures from the 2004 IAJGS conference #general

Rose Feldman <rosef@...>
 

Dear Genners,
We invite those that were in Jerusalem and those that couldn't make it, to
visit our website where we have posted some pictures >from the conference.
Every thumbnail can be clicked upon to enlarge it.
http://www.isragen.org.il/NROS/INF/2004conf.html
Thank you all for coming and help making it such a wonderful conference.
Enjoy!
Rose Feldman
Secretary Tel-Aviv Branch of the Israel Genealogical Society
rosef@post.tau.ac.il

Join the Israel Genealogical Society (IGS) and receive our Journal
"Sharsheret Hadorot"
Society branches are in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, Negev (Beer Sheva),
Netanya.
Visit our forum in hebrew at the ynet SITE - www.ynet.co.il/shorashim
"To help and be helped"


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Siberia #general

Angie Elfassi
 

How would I go about researching Jewish history of
Tomsk, Siberia >from approx. 1880?

Thanks
Angie Elfassi
Yehud, Israel

=====
Searching:
REICHZELIGMAN/RICHMAN, Stakliskes, Lithuania/Leeds
COHEN, Sakiai, Lithuania/Leeds
MAGIDOWITZ, Jurbarkas, Lithuania/Leeds
KASSIMOFF, Rezekne, Latvia/Leeds


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen come see some pictures from the 2004 IAJGS conference #general

Rose Feldman <rosef@...>
 

Dear Genners,
We invite those that were in Jerusalem and those that couldn't make it, to
visit our website where we have posted some pictures >from the conference.
Every thumbnail can be clicked upon to enlarge it.
http://www.isragen.org.il/NROS/INF/2004conf.html
Thank you all for coming and help making it such a wonderful conference.
Enjoy!
Rose Feldman
Secretary Tel-Aviv Branch of the Israel Genealogical Society
rosef@post.tau.ac.il

Join the Israel Genealogical Society (IGS) and receive our Journal
"Sharsheret Hadorot"
Society branches are in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, Negev (Beer Sheva),
Netanya.
Visit our forum in hebrew at the ynet SITE - www.ynet.co.il/shorashim
"To help and be helped"


Reb Chaim SCHNEUR #general

Malroots@...
 

Hello all,
Thanks to the very smart people on this list, I now know the name of my
great great great grandfather!
On his daughter's (my grandfather's mother) stone was the inscription
"daughter of Reb Chaim Schneur" The translations that I got have different
spelling variations of his name. The tomb was in Vaskiai, Lithuania.
My question is since he was listed as Reb, does this mean that he was a Rabbi?
If he was a Rabbi,how would I go about finding out more information on him?

Marilyn Cooper Hall
Coventry,CT. USA
Searching for:
ACHBAR(Vaskiai,Lithuania, Tel Aviv,Palestine,Ottawa & Toronto Canada)
ACHBER(Lithuania,Johannesburg, South Africa, Toronto,Canada)
COOPER(Volhynia,Poland, Ottawa,& Pembroke,Canada)
SWEDLOVE(Mogilev& Osha Belarus, Toronto&Ottawa Canada

MODERATOR NOTE: To learn more about reading Hebrew tombstones, you may refer to
the JewishGen InfoFile "Reading Hebrew Tombstones", located at:
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/tombstones.html


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Reb Chaim SCHNEUR #general

Malroots@...
 

Hello all,
Thanks to the very smart people on this list, I now know the name of my
great great great grandfather!
On his daughter's (my grandfather's mother) stone was the inscription
"daughter of Reb Chaim Schneur" The translations that I got have different
spelling variations of his name. The tomb was in Vaskiai, Lithuania.
My question is since he was listed as Reb, does this mean that he was a Rabbi?
If he was a Rabbi,how would I go about finding out more information on him?

Marilyn Cooper Hall
Coventry,CT. USA
Searching for:
ACHBAR(Vaskiai,Lithuania, Tel Aviv,Palestine,Ottawa & Toronto Canada)
ACHBER(Lithuania,Johannesburg, South Africa, Toronto,Canada)
COOPER(Volhynia,Poland, Ottawa,& Pembroke,Canada)
SWEDLOVE(Mogilev& Osha Belarus, Toronto&Ottawa Canada

MODERATOR NOTE: To learn more about reading Hebrew tombstones, you may refer to
the JewishGen InfoFile "Reading Hebrew Tombstones", located at:
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/tombstones.html