Date   

Re: Mother's G'Parent's #general

JGLois@...
 

In this case I would have to take issue with Judith. A great-aunt
was called "Mussie" and was said to have been named "Mushia".
She was >from Kiev Gub. Arrived in 1909 while still in her 30's to join
join her husband Mottel.

Lois Sernoff [Philadelphia, PA, USA]



In a message dated 9/10/2004 2:32:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jewishgen@lyris.jewishgen.org writes:

Subject: Re: Mother's G'Parent's
From: Judith Romney Wegner <jrw@brown.edu>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:39:01 -0400
X-Message-Number: 7

Dunia wrote;

Just established that my mother's grand-parents names were: Cabel and Musha
Dear Dunia,

My own grandmother's name was Masha -- which is the normal transliteration of
this very common Yiddish name when rendered into Latin alphabet letters.
Frankly, I have never seen it spelled Musha and would nevert have expected to!
That's because in just about all languages except English the letter "u" has the
sound "oo",so that if she had in fact spelled her name "Musha" in Lithuania,
people would have called her "Moosha." So, I would bet that your
greatgrandmother actually pelled it "Masha" (or would have if she could write
the Latin alphabet -- but perhaps she was literate only in Yiddish).

So, if you are searching for her in old documents, it could be worth checking
out the spelling Masha every time.

As for your ggf's name "Cabel", that does not appear to be a Hebrew name as
such. One possibility is that it could be an English-speaker's attempt to

transliterate the name Koppel, which is a common Yiddish nickname for the
Hebrew name Ya'akov (Jacob). Or perhaps Cabel could be someone's misreading of "
Label" -- which in turn might be someone's attempt to render the Yiddish name
Leibel.

I am wondering where these strange transliterations came from. Possibly
they were made by an English-speaker who lacked familiarity with foreign
languages and so tried to spell the names out phonetically according to he rules of English
pronunciation. But English is a huge exception to the general rule when it
comes to representation vowel sound in Latin alphabet letters. That fact often
bumsteers people trying to render Hebrew or Yiddish into English -- and can
end up obscuring the ancestor's actual Hebrew or Yiddish name.

So, my advice to you (and any other Jewishgenner confronted with unusual
transliterations) is to keep your options open!

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@brown.edu


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Mother's G'Parent's #general

JGLois@...
 

In this case I would have to take issue with Judith. A great-aunt
was called "Mussie" and was said to have been named "Mushia".
She was >from Kiev Gub. Arrived in 1909 while still in her 30's to join
join her husband Mottel.

Lois Sernoff [Philadelphia, PA, USA]



In a message dated 9/10/2004 2:32:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jewishgen@lyris.jewishgen.org writes:

Subject: Re: Mother's G'Parent's
From: Judith Romney Wegner <jrw@brown.edu>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:39:01 -0400
X-Message-Number: 7

Dunia wrote;

Just established that my mother's grand-parents names were: Cabel and Musha
Dear Dunia,

My own grandmother's name was Masha -- which is the normal transliteration of
this very common Yiddish name when rendered into Latin alphabet letters.
Frankly, I have never seen it spelled Musha and would nevert have expected to!
That's because in just about all languages except English the letter "u" has the
sound "oo",so that if she had in fact spelled her name "Musha" in Lithuania,
people would have called her "Moosha." So, I would bet that your
greatgrandmother actually pelled it "Masha" (or would have if she could write
the Latin alphabet -- but perhaps she was literate only in Yiddish).

So, if you are searching for her in old documents, it could be worth checking
out the spelling Masha every time.

As for your ggf's name "Cabel", that does not appear to be a Hebrew name as
such. One possibility is that it could be an English-speaker's attempt to

transliterate the name Koppel, which is a common Yiddish nickname for the
Hebrew name Ya'akov (Jacob). Or perhaps Cabel could be someone's misreading of "
Label" -- which in turn might be someone's attempt to render the Yiddish name
Leibel.

I am wondering where these strange transliterations came from. Possibly
they were made by an English-speaker who lacked familiarity with foreign
languages and so tried to spell the names out phonetically according to he rules of English
pronunciation. But English is a huge exception to the general rule when it
comes to representation vowel sound in Latin alphabet letters. That fact often
bumsteers people trying to render Hebrew or Yiddish into English -- and can
end up obscuring the ancestor's actual Hebrew or Yiddish name.

So, my advice to you (and any other Jewishgenner confronted with unusual
transliterations) is to keep your options open!

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@brown.edu


Antonio GRASS Pedrals (Chile) #latinamerica

Don Solomon
 

Does anyone have any knowledge of this individual (who may be deceased)?

He posted some messages on an Ancestry bulletin board a few years ago
relating to a MENDEL family >from Iasi, Romania, which may tie in
with my ancestors. I tried emailing him without reply.

Perhaps there is someone on this list who knows of him and can put me
in touch with anyone who may have access to his information. Thanks!

--
--
Don Solomon <dsolomon@post.harvard.edu>
Boston, MA USA
Searching: NIMOY, DRUTIN, KATZ (Izyaslav, Volhynia Gub., Ukr.)
SOLOMON, JOSEPH, CAHANE, SEGAL (Iasi, Rom.)


Latin America #LatinAmerica Antonio GRASS Pedrals (Chile) #latinamerica

Don Solomon
 

Does anyone have any knowledge of this individual (who may be deceased)?

He posted some messages on an Ancestry bulletin board a few years ago
relating to a MENDEL family >from Iasi, Romania, which may tie in
with my ancestors. I tried emailing him without reply.

Perhaps there is someone on this list who knows of him and can put me
in touch with anyone who may have access to his information. Thanks!

--
--
Don Solomon <dsolomon@post.harvard.edu>
Boston, MA USA
Searching: NIMOY, DRUTIN, KATZ (Izyaslav, Volhynia Gub., Ukr.)
SOLOMON, JOSEPH, CAHANE, SEGAL (Iasi, Rom.)


Re: Masha or Moussia #general

Alexander Sharon
 

Leah Gordon wrote

Dear genners,
Masha and Moussia, as well as Mura, are derivatives of the full Russian
name Maria. Jews who lived in Russia often gave their children Russian
names that later became common.
Leah Gordon
New York
Just to add a clarifier to Leah's note.
Russian names were indeed given at the children births by the secularly
educated Jewish families in Russian Empire as the Haskalah movement spread
across the border >from Galicia.

In addition, popular Russian names have been *adopted* by many Jews after
Russian revolutions of 1905 and 1917, when Jews were given freedom to reside
and work outside The Pale territory.

What am trying to say, is that adopted names (or rather nichknames) like
Moosya, Noosya, Niura, Doosya and so on, had nothing in common with the
original names given at birth but those names have been carried forward.

And this should taken into account when researching family connections
especially in Russia and Poland during the interwar (1918-1939) period.

Alexander Sharon
Calgary, Ab


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Masha or Moussia #general

Alexander Sharon
 

Leah Gordon wrote

Dear genners,
Masha and Moussia, as well as Mura, are derivatives of the full Russian
name Maria. Jews who lived in Russia often gave their children Russian
names that later became common.
Leah Gordon
New York
Just to add a clarifier to Leah's note.
Russian names were indeed given at the children births by the secularly
educated Jewish families in Russian Empire as the Haskalah movement spread
across the border >from Galicia.

In addition, popular Russian names have been *adopted* by many Jews after
Russian revolutions of 1905 and 1917, when Jews were given freedom to reside
and work outside The Pale territory.

What am trying to say, is that adopted names (or rather nichknames) like
Moosya, Noosya, Niura, Doosya and so on, had nothing in common with the
original names given at birth but those names have been carried forward.

And this should taken into account when researching family connections
especially in Russia and Poland during the interwar (1918-1939) period.

Alexander Sharon
Calgary, Ab


Re: Musha and Masha #general

Schelly Dardashti <dardasht@...>
 

Dear Genners,
The mother of my great-grandfather Aron Peretz TALALAI-TOLLIN was Kreina
Musha JASSEN-YASIN-IASIN.
Kreina Musha, sometimes listed as Musha Kreina, was always explained to me
as "Crown of Moshe."
Time frame and location: c1800 Mogilev, Belarus.Thus this goes along with
Alexander Sharon's explanation.
One of Kreina Musha's grand-daughters was Mariyasha (a Yiddish combination
of Miriam and Rachel-Rasha), which also indicates the roots of Musha may be
found in Miriam (Mary-Maria, sometimes listed as Mere in Yiddish, as was the
sister Mere BANK of my maternal great-grandmother Riva BANK TALALAI, wife of
Aron). Time frame here is about 1860 Mogilev, Belarus.

Schelly Talalay Dardashti
Tel Aviv
schelly@genealogy.org.il
schelly@allrelative.net


From: Alexander Sharon <a.sharon@shaw.ca>
Musha, read as: [Moo syah], Dusha, Nusha, Anusha and a few similar
others feminine diminutive and affectionate (pet) names have been
commonly used by the "Russian" Jewish families.
...snip...
And it appears that your gmother name -Masha, has also Russian
background - it is common diminutive form of Miriam (Maria), similar to
> > Sasha, Natasha, and so on.
Alexander Sharon
Calgary, Ab


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Musha and Masha #general

Schelly Dardashti <dardasht@...>
 

Dear Genners,
The mother of my great-grandfather Aron Peretz TALALAI-TOLLIN was Kreina
Musha JASSEN-YASIN-IASIN.
Kreina Musha, sometimes listed as Musha Kreina, was always explained to me
as "Crown of Moshe."
Time frame and location: c1800 Mogilev, Belarus.Thus this goes along with
Alexander Sharon's explanation.
One of Kreina Musha's grand-daughters was Mariyasha (a Yiddish combination
of Miriam and Rachel-Rasha), which also indicates the roots of Musha may be
found in Miriam (Mary-Maria, sometimes listed as Mere in Yiddish, as was the
sister Mere BANK of my maternal great-grandmother Riva BANK TALALAI, wife of
Aron). Time frame here is about 1860 Mogilev, Belarus.

Schelly Talalay Dardashti
Tel Aviv
schelly@genealogy.org.il
schelly@allrelative.net


From: Alexander Sharon <a.sharon@shaw.ca>
Musha, read as: [Moo syah], Dusha, Nusha, Anusha and a few similar
others feminine diminutive and affectionate (pet) names have been
commonly used by the "Russian" Jewish families.
...snip...
And it appears that your gmother name -Masha, has also Russian
background - it is common diminutive form of Miriam (Maria), similar to
> > Sasha, Natasha, and so on.
Alexander Sharon
Calgary, Ab


Invoking God's help,& rabbinical ruling accepting civil records on Jewish desce #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 9/11/2004 12:02:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, Adele Gloger,
AGloger@aol.com writes:

< "In a precedent-setting ruling that could pave the way for legions of
lost Jews to return to the Jewish fold, a top New York rabbinical court has
accepted baptismal certificates, civil-war records and government documents
as proof that someone is Jewish under Jewish law."

The remainder of the article can be found at:

http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/articles/2004/09/10/news/world/sgenealogy0
910.txt >

==fascinating, fascinating. It isn't the first such case where civil records
have been accepted to authenticate maternal Jewish descent, but clearly this
case has support >from the Chabad-Lubavich movement, so we can see its meeting
wide acceptance in the Orthodox community.

Just for the record (see the original JTA report at the url), while Bet"Heh
can stand for Barukh haShem (God be Blessed), this phrase is usually used in
common parlance when speaking of a favorable outcome: a birth, recovery >from
illness, success in a test or in business, and is used much as Thank God is used
in the English language. We may come across this abbreviation and meaning in
the *body* of a letter.

At the *start* of a letter, a book, a card or any written or printed
document, however, the initials Bet"Heh stand for beEzrat haShem, Hebrew for
"with God's help" and invoke God to add power (and clarity?) to the message. Quite
frequently, the letters Bet-Samekh"Dalet are used in a similar manner; they are
an abbreviation for "beSa`adya diShemaya" which is Aramaic for "with Heavenly
help."

Michael Bernet, New York


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Invoking God's help,& rabbinical ruling accepting civil records on Jewish desce #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 9/11/2004 12:02:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, Adele Gloger,
AGloger@aol.com writes:

< "In a precedent-setting ruling that could pave the way for legions of
lost Jews to return to the Jewish fold, a top New York rabbinical court has
accepted baptismal certificates, civil-war records and government documents
as proof that someone is Jewish under Jewish law."

The remainder of the article can be found at:

http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/articles/2004/09/10/news/world/sgenealogy0
910.txt >

==fascinating, fascinating. It isn't the first such case where civil records
have been accepted to authenticate maternal Jewish descent, but clearly this
case has support >from the Chabad-Lubavich movement, so we can see its meeting
wide acceptance in the Orthodox community.

Just for the record (see the original JTA report at the url), while Bet"Heh
can stand for Barukh haShem (God be Blessed), this phrase is usually used in
common parlance when speaking of a favorable outcome: a birth, recovery >from
illness, success in a test or in business, and is used much as Thank God is used
in the English language. We may come across this abbreviation and meaning in
the *body* of a letter.

At the *start* of a letter, a book, a card or any written or printed
document, however, the initials Bet"Heh stand for beEzrat haShem, Hebrew for
"with God's help" and invoke God to add power (and clarity?) to the message. Quite
frequently, the letters Bet-Samekh"Dalet are used in a similar manner; they are
an abbreviation for "beSa`adya diShemaya" which is Aramaic for "with Heavenly
help."

Michael Bernet, New York


Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Lancy
 

I don't know how the people on the Russian side of the border felt, but I
have had talks with people >from Skala Podolskaya on the Easternmost part of
Galicia, right on the Austrian side of the border, and I heard talks about
the Russian Podolians and the Austrian Podolians, including jokes about
slight differences among Podolians depending on which side they were from.

Many families had branches on both sides, matches were made over the river,
draft-dodging young men were smuggled to their relatives in Galicia, etc. I
have a hunch that they were closer to their mates >from across the river than
to areas of Galicia that were more than 50 miles away.

Shana Tova to you all!

Lancy Spalter
Kfar Tavor, Israel

----- Original Message -----

I've encountered a bit of a mystery in researching the town of Makhnovka,
which was near Berditchev. A number of people whose grandparents were from
this town reported that their grandparents thought of themselves as
Galician
and not Russian. Looking at the maps, it is clear that Makhnovka was
definitely in the Russian Empire, further east than Galicia's borders ever
went (that I know of).

I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though not
within
the official borders, because of close ties between the various towns?
Would
they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a sense
of
different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see
themselves
as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of Podolia
and
Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary guberniyas
whose
borders moved around.) Would they have thought of themselves as Russian?
Could they have thought of themselves as Galician? Was there any Ukrainian
identity? Where were the "ethnic" boundaries? (The official national
boundaries changed so much in that area, I can certainly imagine people
not
taking them as seriously as perceived ethnic boundaries.)

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA


Re: Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

There were four main Yiddish dialects (Western, Polish/Galician, Litvish,
and Ukrainian) spoken in Europe during the 19th century. Within these
broad regions, there were some local sub-dialects. By visiting the
following page on the Given Names Data Bases web site on its JewishGen web
site, you can read about the dialect which was spoken in each of the 15
countries for which there are data bases:

< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/geografc.htm >

Where these dialect regions overlapped several countries, or where some
countries were divided between two or more Yiddish dialect regions, the
appropriate boundaries are described on this page.

In a general sense, the four main dialect regions also described Jewish
cultural groupings with which those living in the region
identified. However, this type of self-identification did not keep Jews
from one dialect region >from seeking out marriage partners for their
children in another region with a different dialect and culture, in cases
where finding such a partner was difficult in their own region. So, some
admixture of dialects and cultures did occur.

Shavu'a tov,

Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Lancy
 

I don't know how the people on the Russian side of the border felt, but I
have had talks with people >from Skala Podolskaya on the Easternmost part of
Galicia, right on the Austrian side of the border, and I heard talks about
the Russian Podolians and the Austrian Podolians, including jokes about
slight differences among Podolians depending on which side they were from.

Many families had branches on both sides, matches were made over the river,
draft-dodging young men were smuggled to their relatives in Galicia, etc. I
have a hunch that they were closer to their mates >from across the river than
to areas of Galicia that were more than 50 miles away.

Shana Tova to you all!

Lancy Spalter
Kfar Tavor, Israel

----- Original Message -----

I've encountered a bit of a mystery in researching the town of Makhnovka,
which was near Berditchev. A number of people whose grandparents were from
this town reported that their grandparents thought of themselves as
Galician
and not Russian. Looking at the maps, it is clear that Makhnovka was
definitely in the Russian Empire, further east than Galicia's borders ever
went (that I know of).

I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though not
within
the official borders, because of close ties between the various towns?
Would
they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a sense
of
different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see
themselves
as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of Podolia
and
Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary guberniyas
whose
borders moved around.) Would they have thought of themselves as Russian?
Could they have thought of themselves as Galician? Was there any Ukrainian
identity? Where were the "ethnic" boundaries? (The official national
boundaries changed so much in that area, I can certainly imagine people
not
taking them as seriously as perceived ethnic boundaries.)

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine RE: Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

There were four main Yiddish dialects (Western, Polish/Galician, Litvish,
and Ukrainian) spoken in Europe during the 19th century. Within these
broad regions, there were some local sub-dialects. By visiting the
following page on the Given Names Data Bases web site on its JewishGen web
site, you can read about the dialect which was spoken in each of the 15
countries for which there are data bases:

< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/geografc.htm >

Where these dialect regions overlapped several countries, or where some
countries were divided between two or more Yiddish dialect regions, the
appropriate boundaries are described on this page.

In a general sense, the four main dialect regions also described Jewish
cultural groupings with which those living in the region
identified. However, this type of self-identification did not keep Jews
from one dialect region >from seeking out marriage partners for their
children in another region with a different dialect and culture, in cases
where finding such a partner was difficult in their own region. So, some
admixture of dialects and cultures did occur.

Shavu'a tov,

Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel


Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Dear Tom Chatt and Genners:

In my family, the self-proclaimed Litvaks (maternal side) and
Galitzianers (paternal side) came >from Belarus and Podolia
respectively. But they deeply perceived themselves in those cultural
terms - which had ceased to have geographical significance as borders
moved around. They insulted or complimented each other on those
cultural bases. Not just "pitter" v. "putter" (butter), but
intelligent versus stupid, sensitive versus unaware, well-read versus
ignorant, socially adept versus gauche klutz. I recall that among the
older folks, who'd lived in the Russian Empire for some part of their
lives, this feud sometimes was carried to remarkabl levels of emotion
that might leave scars, but happily it was more often good-natured
kibbutzing.

Also, parts of the extended Podolian family lived to the west in
Romania and Bessarabia, while the Belarus family had some roots in
"Litte" or Lithuania. So theirs was very definitely a cultural and
historic Jewish community sense, not one based on the external,
mutable, Christian borders.

Michelle Frager, NY area


--- Tom Chatt <tomchatt@earthlink.net> wrote:
<snip>
I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of
Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though
not within
the official borders, because of close ties between the various
towns? Would
they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a
sense of
different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in
traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see
themselves
as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of
Podolia and
Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe
themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary
guberniyas whose
borders moved around.)
<snip>

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA


Sense of place, sense of people -- Rabbinical traditions #ukraine

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Although rabbinical history is not my strong point, I believe there
were two very different rabbinical traditions in the two areas
(Litvak and Galitzianer). And as with any religious differences or
schisms, the conviction of unique and correct identity ran deep and
divisively between the two communities. They used different
liturgies, and the Litvak was a more intellectual approach while the
Podolian at least, if not all Galitzianer, was more mystical or
emotive. It seems to me that this, too, contributed to creating
conscientiously different cultures.

I hope someone in the SIG with better knowledge of this aspect than
mine will contribute to this discussion.


Michelle Frager NYC area


Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Tamar Dothan <dothan-t@...>
 

My grandparents were >from Dunayevtze [Dinevitz], Podolia. I grew up knowing
the family was >from Ukraine. Never heard of Podolia. In a job application in
Eretz Israel >from 1938 my grandfather wrote he was >from "Dunevtsy, in
Galitzia".

I assume that although western Ukraine became part of the Russian empire at
the end of the 18th century, after the divisions of Poland, some Jews there
still considered themselves as belonging culturally to Jewish Galitzia . Or
maybe it was more prestigious to be considered a Galitzianer?

Tamar Dothan

Jerusalem, Israel


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Dear Tom Chatt and Genners:

In my family, the self-proclaimed Litvaks (maternal side) and
Galitzianers (paternal side) came >from Belarus and Podolia
respectively. But they deeply perceived themselves in those cultural
terms - which had ceased to have geographical significance as borders
moved around. They insulted or complimented each other on those
cultural bases. Not just "pitter" v. "putter" (butter), but
intelligent versus stupid, sensitive versus unaware, well-read versus
ignorant, socially adept versus gauche klutz. I recall that among the
older folks, who'd lived in the Russian Empire for some part of their
lives, this feud sometimes was carried to remarkabl levels of emotion
that might leave scars, but happily it was more often good-natured
kibbutzing.

Also, parts of the extended Podolian family lived to the west in
Romania and Bessarabia, while the Belarus family had some roots in
"Litte" or Lithuania. So theirs was very definitely a cultural and
historic Jewish community sense, not one based on the external,
mutable, Christian borders.

Michelle Frager, NY area


--- Tom Chatt <tomchatt@earthlink.net> wrote:
<snip>
I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of
Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though
not within
the official borders, because of close ties between the various
towns? Would
they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a
sense of
different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in
traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see
themselves
as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of
Podolia and
Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe
themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary
guberniyas whose
borders moved around.)
<snip>

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Sense of place, sense of people -- Rabbinical traditions #ukraine

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Although rabbinical history is not my strong point, I believe there
were two very different rabbinical traditions in the two areas
(Litvak and Galitzianer). And as with any religious differences or
schisms, the conviction of unique and correct identity ran deep and
divisively between the two communities. They used different
liturgies, and the Litvak was a more intellectual approach while the
Podolian at least, if not all Galitzianer, was more mystical or
emotive. It seems to me that this, too, contributed to creating
conscientiously different cultures.

I hope someone in the SIG with better knowledge of this aspect than
mine will contribute to this discussion.


Michelle Frager NYC area


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine

Tamar Dothan <dothan-t@...>
 

My grandparents were >from Dunayevtze [Dinevitz], Podolia. I grew up knowing
the family was >from Ukraine. Never heard of Podolia. In a job application in
Eretz Israel >from 1938 my grandfather wrote he was >from "Dunevtsy, in
Galitzia".

I assume that although western Ukraine became part of the Russian empire at
the end of the 18th century, after the divisions of Poland, some Jews there
still considered themselves as belonging culturally to Jewish Galitzia . Or
maybe it was more prestigious to be considered a Galitzianer?

Tamar Dothan

Jerusalem, Israel