Date   

Gersh is not Gershon #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

Roy Ogus wrote:

I know that the Yiddish given name Hirsh/Girsh is a kinui for the
Hebrew name Tzvi. Does anyone know whether the given name "Gershon" is
derived >from the same name Girsh/Hirsh, or has some other root?
The answer is that Gershon is totally unconnected with Hirsch/Girsch. It
is an original biblical Hebrew name, not a relatively modern Yiddish one!
But even had you asked the question the other way round (i.e., "does Gersh
come >from Gershon?") it still wouldn't work! It seems you were
bumsteered by overlooking the fact that the spelling "Gersh" occurs only
because G is the letter used by Russian for the H sound in the German word
Hirsch.

In the names Gershon and Gershom (which are two different names but both
biblical!) the G represents the Hebrew letter Gimel, having no connection
whatsoever with the sound "H" or with any Russian or German word. We need
to keep these three unrelated languages separate in our minds, to avoid
invalid trans-linguistic speculations.

The name Gershom appears in Exodus 2:22 as the firstborn of Moses. The
name Gershon appears at Exodus 6:16 as the firstborn of Levi (who was the
third son of Jacob and Leah).

Judith Romney Wegner


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Gersh is not Gershon #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

Roy Ogus wrote:

I know that the Yiddish given name Hirsh/Girsh is a kinui for the
Hebrew name Tzvi. Does anyone know whether the given name "Gershon" is
derived >from the same name Girsh/Hirsh, or has some other root?
The answer is that Gershon is totally unconnected with Hirsch/Girsch. It
is an original biblical Hebrew name, not a relatively modern Yiddish one!
But even had you asked the question the other way round (i.e., "does Gersh
come >from Gershon?") it still wouldn't work! It seems you were
bumsteered by overlooking the fact that the spelling "Gersh" occurs only
because G is the letter used by Russian for the H sound in the German word
Hirsch.

In the names Gershon and Gershom (which are two different names but both
biblical!) the G represents the Hebrew letter Gimel, having no connection
whatsoever with the sound "H" or with any Russian or German word. We need
to keep these three unrelated languages separate in our minds, to avoid
invalid trans-linguistic speculations.

The name Gershom appears in Exodus 2:22 as the firstborn of Moses. The
name Gershon appears at Exodus 6:16 as the firstborn of Levi (who was the
third son of Jacob and Leah).

Judith Romney Wegner


new messages #hungary

Louis Schonfeld <Lmagyar@...>
 

Dear people of the list,

Obviously, messages have been far and few the past several days. Now would
be a good oportunity to share with us the family names and ancestral towns
that you are researching. Even if you have posted this information at one
time, feel free to do so again.

Even though most of my time during a recent visit to Israel was taken up
with genealogy related matters, and visiting with H-siggers throughout
Israel, (apologies to those who live beyond the Green Line- I'm not that
brave!)I have yet to prepare a "trip" report. I still hope to do so, but it
may have to wait until after a follow-up visit there in a few months.
In the meantime, I will share specific items that I learned during that
trip and which may be helpful to others.


Dr. Yehoshua Buchler gave me a photocopied letterhead >from the Slovak
Genealogical-Heraldic Society at the Matica slovenska, headed by Dr. Milan
Sismis. They have a website - www.genealogy-heraldry.sk ; e-mail for Dr.
Sismis is sismis@matica.sk There is a researcher there who I beleive
specializes in Slovak Jewish families. I only have a last name: Weinberger.
The institute's fax number is 421/842-33188 and the telephone is
421/842-31372. The mailing address is Nam. J.C. Hronskenho 1 / 036 52
Martin / Slovakia. Has anyone had experience with this institute?


Best wishes

Louis Schonfeld
Cleveland, OH

visit my shtetlsite: www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/Mukachevo/


Hungary SIG #Hungary new messages #hungary

Louis Schonfeld <Lmagyar@...>
 

Dear people of the list,

Obviously, messages have been far and few the past several days. Now would
be a good oportunity to share with us the family names and ancestral towns
that you are researching. Even if you have posted this information at one
time, feel free to do so again.

Even though most of my time during a recent visit to Israel was taken up
with genealogy related matters, and visiting with H-siggers throughout
Israel, (apologies to those who live beyond the Green Line- I'm not that
brave!)I have yet to prepare a "trip" report. I still hope to do so, but it
may have to wait until after a follow-up visit there in a few months.
In the meantime, I will share specific items that I learned during that
trip and which may be helpful to others.


Dr. Yehoshua Buchler gave me a photocopied letterhead >from the Slovak
Genealogical-Heraldic Society at the Matica slovenska, headed by Dr. Milan
Sismis. They have a website - www.genealogy-heraldry.sk ; e-mail for Dr.
Sismis is sismis@matica.sk There is a researcher there who I beleive
specializes in Slovak Jewish families. I only have a last name: Weinberger.
The institute's fax number is 421/842-33188 and the telephone is
421/842-31372. The mailing address is Nam. J.C. Hronskenho 1 / 036 52
Martin / Slovakia. Has anyone had experience with this institute?


Best wishes

Louis Schonfeld
Cleveland, OH

visit my shtetlsite: www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/Mukachevo/


Researching these names #hungary

Herb Meyers <herbiem@...>
 

Researching:

MEYEROWITZ/MAJEROVIC: Lipca, Ukraine (formerly Hungary)
BERMAN: Mezokaszony/Kosoni, Botrad/Botragy, Ukraine (formerly Hungary)
CHAIMOWITZ/HAYFER: Dragovo/Drahiv/Kovesliget, Ukraine (formerly Hungary)
SOLOMON: Mezokaszony/Kosoni, Ukraine (formerly Hungary)

Herb Meyers
Boulder, CO
herbiem@mindspring.com


Schantz, Schancz, Greenstein and Grunstein from Munkacs. #hungary

Dennis Baer <dbaer@...>
 

Hello everyone

I research the Schantz, Schancz, Greenstein and Grunstein families >from
Munkacs. My great grandfather Samuel Zanvil Schancz ran the train station
of Munkacs, Hungary >from about 1885 until 1903 according to a relative.

I have currently contacted someone >from Kiev who has friends in Mukachevo
(Munkacs) who knows someone who knows someone over 100 years old >from
Mukachevo and also someone else who worked for the railroad in Mukachevo. I
have sent some questions to get forwarded to both people and I will see if
I can get some answers. Some information you can find written down and some
information people over the age of 100 still alive carry.

With the inspiration and help over 3 years now >from Louis Schonfeld, I have
obtained a birth certificate of one of my grandfather's sisters Esther
Schantz, born in Munkacs in 1891. I have also found out the birthplace of
my great grandfather Samuel Schancz, Dobromil and I have found a member of
Jewishgen, who also researches Schantz >from Dobromil who has 4 Schantz
brothers ancestors >from Dobromil in the 1820's and 1830's Hersh, Jacob,
Louis and Mendel, where Mendel might appear my great great grandfather
Menachem Mendel Schantz. I have also learned that my great great
grandmother Golda Mirel Greenstein might repose in the desecrated cemetery
of Munkacs (Mukachevo).

You can see the Schantz family web page at
http://www.hoflink.com/~dbaer/schantz.htm

and you will see a picture of my great grandparents Samuel and Sarah
Schantz taken in New York City in 1920, 81 years ago. They got married in
Munkacs in 1885.

Enjoy.

Dennis Baer
New York


Morgenstern, Newman #hungary

d pfalzer <d_pfalzer@...>
 

As per the recent request I am reposting the
Hungarian-Jewish surnames I am researching.

They are Morgenstern and Neuman >from Murska Sobota,
Slovenia. My grandfather, Viktor left Murska Sobota
in 1920. When he left he had a passport, but on the
way it was stolen.

I have been trying to locate his birth record from
Murska Sobota (without success). It isn't in the year
I have for his birth. On the otherhand it is known
that he often did not tell the truth about his age.

Denise



=====
Researching:
Newman,Morgenstern(Slovenia)
Szall, Nemeth (Vas, Hungary)
Szabo, Koch (Beregszasz, Hungary)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Hungary SIG #Hungary Researching these names #hungary

Herb Meyers <herbiem@...>
 

Researching:

MEYEROWITZ/MAJEROVIC: Lipca, Ukraine (formerly Hungary)
BERMAN: Mezokaszony/Kosoni, Botrad/Botragy, Ukraine (formerly Hungary)
CHAIMOWITZ/HAYFER: Dragovo/Drahiv/Kovesliget, Ukraine (formerly Hungary)
SOLOMON: Mezokaszony/Kosoni, Ukraine (formerly Hungary)

Herb Meyers
Boulder, CO
herbiem@mindspring.com


Hungary SIG #Hungary Schantz, Schancz, Greenstein and Grunstein from Munkacs. #hungary

Dennis Baer <dbaer@...>
 

Hello everyone

I research the Schantz, Schancz, Greenstein and Grunstein families >from
Munkacs. My great grandfather Samuel Zanvil Schancz ran the train station
of Munkacs, Hungary >from about 1885 until 1903 according to a relative.

I have currently contacted someone >from Kiev who has friends in Mukachevo
(Munkacs) who knows someone who knows someone over 100 years old >from
Mukachevo and also someone else who worked for the railroad in Mukachevo. I
have sent some questions to get forwarded to both people and I will see if
I can get some answers. Some information you can find written down and some
information people over the age of 100 still alive carry.

With the inspiration and help over 3 years now >from Louis Schonfeld, I have
obtained a birth certificate of one of my grandfather's sisters Esther
Schantz, born in Munkacs in 1891. I have also found out the birthplace of
my great grandfather Samuel Schancz, Dobromil and I have found a member of
Jewishgen, who also researches Schantz >from Dobromil who has 4 Schantz
brothers ancestors >from Dobromil in the 1820's and 1830's Hersh, Jacob,
Louis and Mendel, where Mendel might appear my great great grandfather
Menachem Mendel Schantz. I have also learned that my great great
grandmother Golda Mirel Greenstein might repose in the desecrated cemetery
of Munkacs (Mukachevo).

You can see the Schantz family web page at
http://www.hoflink.com/~dbaer/schantz.htm

and you will see a picture of my great grandparents Samuel and Sarah
Schantz taken in New York City in 1920, 81 years ago. They got married in
Munkacs in 1885.

Enjoy.

Dennis Baer
New York


Hungary SIG #Hungary Morgenstern, Newman #hungary

d pfalzer <d_pfalzer@...>
 

As per the recent request I am reposting the
Hungarian-Jewish surnames I am researching.

They are Morgenstern and Neuman >from Murska Sobota,
Slovenia. My grandfather, Viktor left Murska Sobota
in 1920. When he left he had a passport, but on the
way it was stolen.

I have been trying to locate his birth record from
Murska Sobota (without success). It isn't in the year
I have for his birth. On the otherhand it is known
that he often did not tell the truth about his age.

Denise



=====
Researching:
Newman,Morgenstern(Slovenia)
Szall, Nemeth (Vas, Hungary)
Szabo, Koch (Beregszasz, Hungary)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Re: My mtDNA revealed a Bulgarian/Turk/Karelian origin #dna

Conrad Johansson <holmsjon@...>
 

Concerning Annee Ani's question about possible Bulgarian/Turk/Karelian
origins of Ashkenazi Jews.

Bulgarians were originally a Turkish tribe. The word is related to Volga and
an ancient state on the Volga called "Bulgar".

Karelian, Finns and Turks are Ural-Altaic, and thus linguistically, and
possibly genetically, related.

There existed a Turkish-Jewish empire in southern Russia called the Khazar
empire during the 10th century until it was devastated by vikings.

Costler suggests in "The Thirteenth Tribe" that refugees and other >from the
Khazar took part in shaping East European Jewry.

sincerely
Conrad Johansson
Ph D student,
Sweden


DNA Research #DNA Re: My mtDNA revealed a Bulgarian/Turk/Karelian origin #dna

Conrad Johansson <holmsjon@...>
 

Concerning Annee Ani's question about possible Bulgarian/Turk/Karelian
origins of Ashkenazi Jews.

Bulgarians were originally a Turkish tribe. The word is related to Volga and
an ancient state on the Volga called "Bulgar".

Karelian, Finns and Turks are Ural-Altaic, and thus linguistically, and
possibly genetically, related.

There existed a Turkish-Jewish empire in southern Russia called the Khazar
empire during the 10th century until it was devastated by vikings.

Costler suggests in "The Thirteenth Tribe" that refugees and other >from the
Khazar took part in shaping East European Jewry.

sincerely
Conrad Johansson
Ph D student,
Sweden


Anyone know whether those numbers really match my mtDNA printout? #dna

Annee Ani <annee_ani@...>
 

Thanks. Do you know who might be interested to take a look at my mtDNA
printout and tell me >from the three "c"s which mutations I do have, what
ethnicity? I'm not sure if the 189, 356, and 362 are really mine, as it was
given to me by someone who works at Stanford, and I don't know where the
numbers came from, but I have the basic mtDNA prinout >from
Oxfordancestors.com. Any suggestions? Thanks
Annee


Please answer privately
MODERATOR ON DUTY
_________________________________________________________________


DNA Research #DNA Anyone know whether those numbers really match my mtDNA printout? #dna

Annee Ani <annee_ani@...>
 

Thanks. Do you know who might be interested to take a look at my mtDNA
printout and tell me >from the three "c"s which mutations I do have, what
ethnicity? I'm not sure if the 189, 356, and 362 are really mine, as it was
given to me by someone who works at Stanford, and I don't know where the
numbers came from, but I have the basic mtDNA prinout >from
Oxfordancestors.com. Any suggestions? Thanks
Annee


Please answer privately
MODERATOR ON DUTY
_________________________________________________________________


question #dna

Ursulla Kulla <ursulla59@...>
 

Do you have any information about Myeloproliferative disorders? Questioning
Essential Thrombocythemia. I have been tested for this (as well as vWD1),
and have not done any DNA testing. Right now this is all I can take...BM Bx,
Phlebs, etc. My family background that we had written down is: (going
backwards) America, East Germany (Silesia), Old Hungary (Serbia now) &
Bulgaria,and Turkey. My maiden name is Kulla (Kula) and the family came >from
these towns. I have a heavy Jewish background on my fathers side and some
what on mothers. I have read that there is a group in Northern Israel that
might have ET. ?? Would appreciate any and all information. Technical
information is no problem to understand (in Medical profession). Thanks
Ursulla


Please make sure you answer privately.
MODERATOR ON DUTY
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


DNA Research #DNA question #dna

Ursulla Kulla <ursulla59@...>
 

Do you have any information about Myeloproliferative disorders? Questioning
Essential Thrombocythemia. I have been tested for this (as well as vWD1),
and have not done any DNA testing. Right now this is all I can take...BM Bx,
Phlebs, etc. My family background that we had written down is: (going
backwards) America, East Germany (Silesia), Old Hungary (Serbia now) &
Bulgaria,and Turkey. My maiden name is Kulla (Kula) and the family came >from
these towns. I have a heavy Jewish background on my fathers side and some
what on mothers. I have read that there is a group in Northern Israel that
might have ET. ?? Would appreciate any and all information. Technical
information is no problem to understand (in Medical profession). Thanks
Ursulla


Please make sure you answer privately.
MODERATOR ON DUTY
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


Bounced mail #latvia

Arlene Beare <arl@...>
 

I am sorry if you received a lot of lyris bounced mail. I tried to avoid
rejecting a multipart mime message by editing it but it failed. I must
therefore ask you all once again to see that your E-mail is sent in Plain
Text or it will be rejected. If you do not know how to do it please ask
your ISP. Eudora always asks if you want it in Plain text if it is sent in
any other format but other Programmes such as Outlook Express need to be
set to Plaintext in the options.

Mark Heckman sent the following advice in a previous message:

Microsoft Outlook or Outlook Express: when you compose a message select
"Format -> Plain Text."

Yahoo mail: check the "plain text" box beneath the message.

Netscape: first select "Edit -> Preferences -> Mail & Newsgroups ->
Formatting," then set to "Use the plain text editor" and to "Convert
the message into plain text." You must also select "Edit ->
Preferences -> Mail & Newsgroups -> Messages" and under where it says
"Send messages that use 8-bit characters," check the box next to "As
is."

For other email programs, if the program was supplied by your Internet
Service Provider, they will be able to tell you how to configure your
email program. Similarly, for free email services like Hotmail or
Juno, their tech support people can tell you what to do.


Latvia SIG #Latvia Bounced mail #latvia

Arlene Beare <arl@...>
 

I am sorry if you received a lot of lyris bounced mail. I tried to avoid
rejecting a multipart mime message by editing it but it failed. I must
therefore ask you all once again to see that your E-mail is sent in Plain
Text or it will be rejected. If you do not know how to do it please ask
your ISP. Eudora always asks if you want it in Plain text if it is sent in
any other format but other Programmes such as Outlook Express need to be
set to Plaintext in the options.

Mark Heckman sent the following advice in a previous message:

Microsoft Outlook or Outlook Express: when you compose a message select
"Format -> Plain Text."

Yahoo mail: check the "plain text" box beneath the message.

Netscape: first select "Edit -> Preferences -> Mail & Newsgroups ->
Formatting," then set to "Use the plain text editor" and to "Convert
the message into plain text." You must also select "Edit ->
Preferences -> Mail & Newsgroups -> Messages" and under where it says
"Send messages that use 8-bit characters," check the box next to "As
is."

For other email programs, if the program was supplied by your Internet
Service Provider, they will be able to tell you how to configure your
email program. Similarly, for free email services like Hotmail or
Juno, their tech support people can tell you what to do.


Re: My mtDNA revealed a Bulgarian/Turk/Karelian origin #dna

Andy Carvin <acarvin@...>
 

My mtDNA revealed a Bulgarian/Turk/Karelian origin. Would
this mean that
Levantine Jewish men married women of Anatolia,Bulgaria
(Thrace) or Karelia,
a small country in and near Finland in medieval times? Anyone
else have this
mtDNA in Ashkenazim origin?
It may not be as simple as that. mtDNA mutates over a very slow period of
time - tens of thousands of years - so it's difficult to predict exactly
when your common ancestor existed (especially compared with y chromosome
estimates, which can predict ancestors in the last 1000 years). Also, it's
hard to say whether your ancestor was solely of those origins, in the sense
that both modern-day Turks and Bulgarians have a mix of ethnic backgrounds.
The Ottoman empire was a melting pot of Turkic, Slavic, Balkan, Caucasian
and middle eastern peoples (if you've ever traveled around Turkey you'll
come across every imaginable hair color, eye color, etc), so it's also
possible that the Bulgarians and Turks with your similar mtdna simply had
ancestors who were Jewish, or Slavic, or Turkic, etc. The Ottoman empire was
also a refuge for Spanish Jews, and many Jews became muslims in order to
participate in high levels of the Ottoman civil service. (a very modern
meritocracy for its time).

So it's easy to read too much into the mtDNA results at this point in time.
For example, as I mentioned on the list earlier, my mtDNA had commonalities
with 5 Nubian test subjects, as well as a handful of Levantine/eastern
mediterranean peoples. This could mean that one of my Israelite ancestors
had a child with a Nubian woman, but it could also mean that some of the
original Israelite population had origins in Nubia thousands of years before
they became Jews. (Semitic languages are believed by many to be northeast
African in origin, then migrating into the Levant, rather than vice versa.)
The data in the Macaulay study said that my mutation was anywhere from
18,000 to about 40,000 years old - well before there was any codified notion
of what it meant to be Jewish, an Israelite, etc.

ac
*****************************************
Andy Carvin andy@benton.org
Senior Associate
Benton Foundation
http://edweb.gsn.org/andy
http://www.DigitalDivideNetwork.org
*****************************************
Visit my new website, Anatolian Fortnight
http://edweb.gsn.org/anatolia
*****************************************

-----Original Message-----
From: Annee Ani [mailto:annee_ani@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 12:12 AM
To: DNA Testing, Ask the Experts
Subject: My mtDNA revealed a Bulgarian/Turk/Karelian origin


*** Limited Time Only - Specials Available ***
<http://www.jewishgen.org/jewishgenmall/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Annee
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


-----------
Please check the DNA FAQ before writing,
there you can find many questions answered already:
http://www.familytreedna.com/faqjg.html

To post to the DNA discussion group, send your message to:
<dna@lyris.jewishgen.org>

DNA Website: http://www.jewishgen.org/dna/

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(dna@lyris.jewishgen.org) is hosted by
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DNA Research #DNA RE: My mtDNA revealed a Bulgarian/Turk/Karelian origin #dna

Andy Carvin <acarvin@...>
 

My mtDNA revealed a Bulgarian/Turk/Karelian origin. Would
this mean that
Levantine Jewish men married women of Anatolia,Bulgaria
(Thrace) or Karelia,
a small country in and near Finland in medieval times? Anyone
else have this
mtDNA in Ashkenazim origin?
It may not be as simple as that. mtDNA mutates over a very slow period of
time - tens of thousands of years - so it's difficult to predict exactly
when your common ancestor existed (especially compared with y chromosome
estimates, which can predict ancestors in the last 1000 years). Also, it's
hard to say whether your ancestor was solely of those origins, in the sense
that both modern-day Turks and Bulgarians have a mix of ethnic backgrounds.
The Ottoman empire was a melting pot of Turkic, Slavic, Balkan, Caucasian
and middle eastern peoples (if you've ever traveled around Turkey you'll
come across every imaginable hair color, eye color, etc), so it's also
possible that the Bulgarians and Turks with your similar mtdna simply had
ancestors who were Jewish, or Slavic, or Turkic, etc. The Ottoman empire was
also a refuge for Spanish Jews, and many Jews became muslims in order to
participate in high levels of the Ottoman civil service. (a very modern
meritocracy for its time).

So it's easy to read too much into the mtDNA results at this point in time.
For example, as I mentioned on the list earlier, my mtDNA had commonalities
with 5 Nubian test subjects, as well as a handful of Levantine/eastern
mediterranean peoples. This could mean that one of my Israelite ancestors
had a child with a Nubian woman, but it could also mean that some of the
original Israelite population had origins in Nubia thousands of years before
they became Jews. (Semitic languages are believed by many to be northeast
African in origin, then migrating into the Levant, rather than vice versa.)
The data in the Macaulay study said that my mutation was anywhere from
18,000 to about 40,000 years old - well before there was any codified notion
of what it meant to be Jewish, an Israelite, etc.

ac
*****************************************
Andy Carvin andy@benton.org
Senior Associate
Benton Foundation
http://edweb.gsn.org/andy
http://www.DigitalDivideNetwork.org
*****************************************
Visit my new website, Anatolian Fortnight
http://edweb.gsn.org/anatolia
*****************************************

-----Original Message-----
From: Annee Ani [mailto:annee_ani@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 12:12 AM
To: DNA Testing, Ask the Experts
Subject: My mtDNA revealed a Bulgarian/Turk/Karelian origin


*** Limited Time Only - Specials Available ***
<http://www.jewishgen.org/jewishgenmall/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Annee
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


-----------
Please check the DNA FAQ before writing,
there you can find many questions answered already:
http://www.familytreedna.com/faqjg.html

To post to the DNA discussion group, send your message to:
<dna@lyris.jewishgen.org>

DNA Website: http://www.jewishgen.org/dna/

This Discussion Group
(dna@lyris.jewishgen.org) is hosted by
JewishGen: The Home of Jewish Genealogy
Visit our home page at http://www.jewishgen.org
---
You are currently subscribed to dna as: [acarvin@benton.org]
To unsubscribe send email to $subst('Email.Unsub')