Date   

Free Value Added Class offered by JewishGen Education May 7 to May 21 #austria-czech

Nancy Holden
 

Free Value Added Class offered by JewishGen Education May 7 to May 21

Want to discover family research methodology and map the hidden resources
of JewishGen? Want to learn how to search one of the leading resources for
Jewish genealogy? Want to learn to navigate your way through the maze of
Jewish data collections?

This course is a series of workbook exercises that will take you on a
guided tour of the paths and byways that make up JewishGen's massive
website. You will visit the links that connect the composite databases,
projects, SIGs and open up the wonders of JewishGen.

Newbies, dabblers and serious researchers can benefit by using these
guided pointers.

Our private forum is open to enrollees 24/7. If you have donated $100 to
JewishGen General Fund in the past 12 months this class is Free.
If you have not made this contribution, there is a charge of $18.

Enrollment is open
http://www.jewishgen.org/education
Click on the enroll hyperlink

Please address questions to
mailto:jewishgen-education@...

Nancy Holden


TWO MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENTS regarding the 2018 IAJGS conference in Warsaw #austria-czech

bounce-3505732-772950@...
 

ONE: PRELIMINARY PROGRAM is available

The IAJGS 2018 Conference Program Committee is delighted to announce
the availability of the preliminary conference program.

While the program is subject to revision due to upcoming and
unanticipated scheduling needs, the basic framework of the conference
is now available and it should be a great help to those formulating
their conference plans.

At this moment, the preliminary program is accessible at:
www.iajgs2018.org/program_schedule.cfm

TWO: MEAL RESERVATIONS are available

The IAJGS Warsaw Conference Planning Team is delighted to announce
that registrants can now return to their registration forms and sign
up for the larger luncheons and Thursday evening Gala Banquet. To sign
up for a meal, you must first register for the conference, if you have
not already done so. Meal tickets may be purchased through the website
through July 23rd, and detailed instructions appear on the Conference
Registration Form.

The Meal Schedule in Summary:
Monday, August 6 JRI-Poland
Tuesday, August 7 Litvak SIG, JewishGen German-Jewish SIG
Wednesday, August 8 JewishGen Ukraine SIG, JewishGen Austria/Czech SIG
Thursday, August 9 JewishGen Belarus SIG & Conference Evening Gala Banquet
Speakers at the SIG luncheons will be announced at a later date.

Hours: Luncheons 12-1:30 p.m.; Banquet 7-9 p.m.

Costs: Luncheons ($32/person); Banquet ($62/person).

Meal options:
JRI-Poland luncheon: Kosher chicken or vegetarian.
Other SIG luncheons: Non-kosher buffet style; or pre-plated Kosher
chicken or Kosher vegetarian.
Banquet: Pre-plated chicken, fish, or vegetarian, kosher or non-kosher.
Medically based dietary restrictions that you told us about in the
registration form will be accommodated. If you have questions or
concerns you may contact the event planners at
eventplanner@....

Meals may be signed up for on the Attendee Service Center >from the
REGISTRATION menu on the Conference Home page www.iajgs2018.org. Sign
in with the Email address you used for registration and the password
from your confirmation message. On the Welcome page, Click Update Your
Info, then click Edit and continue through the registration form
adding information or meals as you go.

Watch for announcements about food offerings for lunchtime
get-togethers of smaller, country-focus, birds-of-a-feather, or
special interest groups.

See you in Warsaw - August 5-10, 2018

Dan Oren
IAJGS 2018 Warsaw Conference Listserv Communications
Woodbridge, Connecticut USA


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Free Value Added Class offered by JewishGen Education May 7 to May 21 #austria-czech

Nancy Holden
 

Free Value Added Class offered by JewishGen Education May 7 to May 21

Want to discover family research methodology and map the hidden resources
of JewishGen? Want to learn how to search one of the leading resources for
Jewish genealogy? Want to learn to navigate your way through the maze of
Jewish data collections?

This course is a series of workbook exercises that will take you on a
guided tour of the paths and byways that make up JewishGen's massive
website. You will visit the links that connect the composite databases,
projects, SIGs and open up the wonders of JewishGen.

Newbies, dabblers and serious researchers can benefit by using these
guided pointers.

Our private forum is open to enrollees 24/7. If you have donated $100 to
JewishGen General Fund in the past 12 months this class is Free.
If you have not made this contribution, there is a charge of $18.

Enrollment is open
http://www.jewishgen.org/education
Click on the enroll hyperlink

Please address questions to
mailto:jewishgen-education@...

Nancy Holden


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech TWO MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENTS regarding the 2018 IAJGS conference in Warsaw #austria-czech

bounce-3505732-772950@...
 

ONE: PRELIMINARY PROGRAM is available

The IAJGS 2018 Conference Program Committee is delighted to announce
the availability of the preliminary conference program.

While the program is subject to revision due to upcoming and
unanticipated scheduling needs, the basic framework of the conference
is now available and it should be a great help to those formulating
their conference plans.

At this moment, the preliminary program is accessible at:
www.iajgs2018.org/program_schedule.cfm

TWO: MEAL RESERVATIONS are available

The IAJGS Warsaw Conference Planning Team is delighted to announce
that registrants can now return to their registration forms and sign
up for the larger luncheons and Thursday evening Gala Banquet. To sign
up for a meal, you must first register for the conference, if you have
not already done so. Meal tickets may be purchased through the website
through July 23rd, and detailed instructions appear on the Conference
Registration Form.

The Meal Schedule in Summary:
Monday, August 6 JRI-Poland
Tuesday, August 7 Litvak SIG, JewishGen German-Jewish SIG
Wednesday, August 8 JewishGen Ukraine SIG, JewishGen Austria/Czech SIG
Thursday, August 9 JewishGen Belarus SIG & Conference Evening Gala Banquet
Speakers at the SIG luncheons will be announced at a later date.

Hours: Luncheons 12-1:30 p.m.; Banquet 7-9 p.m.

Costs: Luncheons ($32/person); Banquet ($62/person).

Meal options:
JRI-Poland luncheon: Kosher chicken or vegetarian.
Other SIG luncheons: Non-kosher buffet style; or pre-plated Kosher
chicken or Kosher vegetarian.
Banquet: Pre-plated chicken, fish, or vegetarian, kosher or non-kosher.
Medically based dietary restrictions that you told us about in the
registration form will be accommodated. If you have questions or
concerns you may contact the event planners at
eventplanner@....

Meals may be signed up for on the Attendee Service Center >from the
REGISTRATION menu on the Conference Home page www.iajgs2018.org. Sign
in with the Email address you used for registration and the password
from your confirmation message. On the Welcome page, Click Update Your
Info, then click Edit and continue through the registration form
adding information or meals as you go.

Watch for announcements about food offerings for lunchtime
get-togethers of smaller, country-focus, birds-of-a-feather, or
special interest groups.

See you in Warsaw - August 5-10, 2018

Dan Oren
IAJGS 2018 Warsaw Conference Listserv Communications
Woodbridge, Connecticut USA


This week's Yizkor book excerpt on the JewishGen Facebook page #general

Bruce Drake <BDrake@...>
 

This being Friday, what better time to read "Sabbath in Town" >from the
Yizkor book of Olyka, Ukraine, about 21 miles >from both Lutsk and Dubno.
This is another account of how Jews in relative or real poverty scrimped
during the week with their reward being a joyous (and food-filled)
celebration of the Sabbath. Nathan Rosenfeld's account starts with the
preparations that begin as early as Wednesday, the men's pilgrimmage to
the "public bath to clean themselves up >from the impurities of the week,"
the services in the synagogue which was "filled with light >from oil
candelabras and shining candelabras" and of course the Sabbath feasts
that followed: "Kugels cooked with a lot of goose fat, plus kishke, cake
and cookies... recitation of the blessing on a full glass of vodka ...
Chopped liver spiced with goose fat is served, followed by the cholent
and delicacies."

URL: https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=jewishgen.org

Bruce Drake
Silver Spring MD

Researching: DRACH, EBERT, KIMMEL, ZLOTNICK
Towns: Wojnilow, Kovel


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen This week's Yizkor book excerpt on the JewishGen Facebook page #general

Bruce Drake <BDrake@...>
 

This being Friday, what better time to read "Sabbath in Town" >from the
Yizkor book of Olyka, Ukraine, about 21 miles >from both Lutsk and Dubno.
This is another account of how Jews in relative or real poverty scrimped
during the week with their reward being a joyous (and food-filled)
celebration of the Sabbath. Nathan Rosenfeld's account starts with the
preparations that begin as early as Wednesday, the men's pilgrimmage to
the "public bath to clean themselves up >from the impurities of the week,"
the services in the synagogue which was "filled with light >from oil
candelabras and shining candelabras" and of course the Sabbath feasts
that followed: "Kugels cooked with a lot of goose fat, plus kishke, cake
and cookies... recitation of the blessing on a full glass of vodka ...
Chopped liver spiced with goose fat is served, followed by the cholent
and delicacies."

URL: https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=jewishgen.org

Bruce Drake
Silver Spring MD

Researching: DRACH, EBERT, KIMMEL, ZLOTNICK
Towns: Wojnilow, Kovel


Memorialization for the Holocaust Victims from the Town of Birzh (Birzai), Lithuania #lithuania

Roy Ogus
 

On August 8, 1941, 2400 Jews living in the town of Birzh were force-marched
to the Astrava forest, 3 Km outside of Birzh, and brutally murdered. The
victims lie buried in the forest in two large mass graves. A fuller
description of this horrific event is found at
https://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/birzai/Birzh_3.html

A major undertaking to build, at the gravesite, a memorial to the victims
is now in process, with the goal of dedicating the memorial in October
2018.

A list of victims has been constructed using data >from the Yad Vashem
Database of Shoah Victims Names. However, this list falls well short of
identifying a majority of those who died on that fateful day.

The organizers of the memorial project urgently seek people who can
contribute names of Jews who were resident in Birzh during WWII or Jews
who are known to have perished in the Astrava forest.

If you have such names or other pertinent information to share, please
contact Jonathan Dorfan at <jdorfan@...>. Jonathan will provide
you with a Testimony Form to capture, in a standardized format, what
information you have.

Thanks!

Roy Ogus
Palo Alto, California
r_ogus at hotmail.com </jdorfan@...>


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Memorialization for the Holocaust Victims from the Town of Birzh (Birzai), Lithuania #lithuania

Roy Ogus
 

On August 8, 1941, 2400 Jews living in the town of Birzh were force-marched
to the Astrava forest, 3 Km outside of Birzh, and brutally murdered. The
victims lie buried in the forest in two large mass graves. A fuller
description of this horrific event is found at
https://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/birzai/Birzh_3.html

A major undertaking to build, at the gravesite, a memorial to the victims
is now in process, with the goal of dedicating the memorial in October
2018.

A list of victims has been constructed using data >from the Yad Vashem
Database of Shoah Victims Names. However, this list falls well short of
identifying a majority of those who died on that fateful day.

The organizers of the memorial project urgently seek people who can
contribute names of Jews who were resident in Birzh during WWII or Jews
who are known to have perished in the Astrava forest.

If you have such names or other pertinent information to share, please
contact Jonathan Dorfan at <jdorfan@...>. Jonathan will provide
you with a Testimony Form to capture, in a standardized format, what
information you have.

Thanks!

Roy Ogus
Palo Alto, California
r_ogus at hotmail.com </jdorfan@...>


Philadelphia Bank Immigrant Passage Records Address Interpretation Assistance #ukraine

D S <dps1107@...>
 

I recently realized that digital copies of the Philadelphia Bank
Immigrant Passage Records (indices available on JewishGen) are
available online through Temple University
(http://digital.library.temple.edu/cdm/searchingledgers/collection/p16002coll16/index.php).

These records often list addresses in Europe with abbreviations. Below
is one example. Would anyone be able and/or willing to inform me what
the abbreviations stand for (or otherwise inform me where I could find
this information). I assume that the "G" stands for Guberniya, but I
am unsure of the others (I assume both "Dom" and "Na" are also
abbreviations). Any other information that you might be able to
provide on this address would be greatly appreciated. (I assume
Berdichew is Berdichev.) A copy of the original is available upon
request. Thank you in advance.

ADDRESS WOLF GIDIZGEIM
G. Berdiczew Dom. Globocki
Na Starow (Starom? Starorn?) Bazar


Best,

Dan Schley
Ithaca, NY


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Philadelphia Bank Immigrant Passage Records Address Interpretation Assistance #ukraine

D S <dps1107@...>
 

I recently realized that digital copies of the Philadelphia Bank
Immigrant Passage Records (indices available on JewishGen) are
available online through Temple University
(http://digital.library.temple.edu/cdm/searchingledgers/collection/p16002coll16/index.php).

These records often list addresses in Europe with abbreviations. Below
is one example. Would anyone be able and/or willing to inform me what
the abbreviations stand for (or otherwise inform me where I could find
this information). I assume that the "G" stands for Guberniya, but I
am unsure of the others (I assume both "Dom" and "Na" are also
abbreviations). Any other information that you might be able to
provide on this address would be greatly appreciated. (I assume
Berdichew is Berdichev.) A copy of the original is available upon
request. Thank you in advance.

ADDRESS WOLF GIDIZGEIM
G. Berdiczew Dom. Globocki
Na Starow (Starom? Starorn?) Bazar


Best,

Dan Schley
Ithaca, NY


Ella Sokol of Kiev #ukraine

Les Shipnuck <shipnuck@...>
 

Researcher seeking to resume contact with genealogical researcher Ella
Sokol (Eleonora Sokolova) in Kiev, with whom I have lost contact. She did
some research for my family several years ago, and I am disappointed that
her email address seems to have changed, or she has retired.

If anyone can connect me with her I would be very appreciative. I can be
reached at: shipnuck@...

Thank you in advance,

Les Shipnuck
California

Researching:

SHAINSKY Ignatovka, Obukhov, Rokitne, Germanivka
KUTZENOK Malin, Nedashky
TZIPNUIK Ignatovka, Yasnagorodka, Korostishev, Makarov
ADAMSKY Ignatovka, Yasnagorodka
OSTRONSKY Ignatovka


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Ella Sokol of Kiev #ukraine

Les Shipnuck <shipnuck@...>
 

Researcher seeking to resume contact with genealogical researcher Ella
Sokol (Eleonora Sokolova) in Kiev, with whom I have lost contact. She did
some research for my family several years ago, and I am disappointed that
her email address seems to have changed, or she has retired.

If anyone can connect me with her I would be very appreciative. I can be
reached at: shipnuck@...

Thank you in advance,

Les Shipnuck
California

Researching:

SHAINSKY Ignatovka, Obukhov, Rokitne, Germanivka
KUTZENOK Malin, Nedashky
TZIPNUIK Ignatovka, Yasnagorodka, Korostishev, Makarov
ADAMSKY Ignatovka, Yasnagorodka
OSTRONSKY Ignatovka


Re: Effect of Double Cousining on Gene Sharing Results #dna

rayvenna@...
 

Lara Diamond has been working on a project for Ashkenazi Jews.
Initial results can be found here:
https://larasgenealogy.blogspot.com/2018/02/ashkenazic-jewish-shared-dna-survey.html
[or https://tinyurl.com/yajqt2ol --Mod.]

Information on how to contribute is here:
https://larasgenealogy.blogspot.com/2018/01/ashkenazic-jewish-shared-dna-survey.html
[or https://tinyurl.com/ydc3pyqn --Mod.]

She also asks for information about known double relationships.

I do like the idea of establishing your own "norm" within your own
genetic lines, but it is insanely time consuming. I'm working on a
spreadsheet comparing all of my kits now. It's revealing some
fascinating information, but it's also taking a *lot* of work.

Mindie Kaplan
Montgomery Village, MD

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Davis martindavis@..." <dna@...>
Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 6:18:42 AM

...
According to Blaine Bettinger's graph ( >from the autosomal Shared cM
Project - see https://i.stack.imgur.com/yJDKx.png), you would expect to
see an average of 79cM shared with a single third cousin and the sharing
can vary >from 0 to 198cM in total. That may increase, possibly even double,
when the third cousin has 'reinforcement' >from both the maternal and
paternal lines (logically it should lift the third cousin to a variety of
second cousin - again reference the Bettinger graph). But...


DNA Research #DNA Re: Effect of Double Cousining on Gene Sharing Results #dna

rayvenna@...
 

Lara Diamond has been working on a project for Ashkenazi Jews.
Initial results can be found here:
https://larasgenealogy.blogspot.com/2018/02/ashkenazic-jewish-shared-dna-survey.html
[or https://tinyurl.com/yajqt2ol --Mod.]

Information on how to contribute is here:
https://larasgenealogy.blogspot.com/2018/01/ashkenazic-jewish-shared-dna-survey.html
[or https://tinyurl.com/ydc3pyqn --Mod.]

She also asks for information about known double relationships.

I do like the idea of establishing your own "norm" within your own
genetic lines, but it is insanely time consuming. I'm working on a
spreadsheet comparing all of my kits now. It's revealing some
fascinating information, but it's also taking a *lot* of work.

Mindie Kaplan
Montgomery Village, MD

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Davis martindavis@..." <dna@...>
Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 6:18:42 AM

...
According to Blaine Bettinger's graph ( >from the autosomal Shared cM
Project - see https://i.stack.imgur.com/yJDKx.png), you would expect to
see an average of 79cM shared with a single third cousin and the sharing
can vary >from 0 to 198cM in total. That may increase, possibly even double,
when the third cousin has 'reinforcement' >from both the maternal and
paternal lines (logically it should lift the third cousin to a variety of
second cousin - again reference the Bettinger graph). But...


Re: Ancestry Matches #dna

Adam Cherson
 

Dear David,

Having been in a number of similar situations myself, I can only say
that in most cases the 'fog' is caused by my own (and that of my
co-researchers) lack of knowledge of the historical facts surrounding
our heritages. The dna doesn't lie... Clearly there is a mystery there.
Your job is to solve the case.

The first thing I would try to do is determine whether you are related
through her maternal or paternal sides. There are a number of techniques
and tests which can help in this regard and there is no time to explain
those here. If you are lucky enough to be related through her mother,
then there may be a documentary trail you can pick up. Otherwise, things
will be much more difficult since you will be confronted with an
investigation into the biological parents of her adopted father.

Take it one step at a time and keep seeking expert advice along the way.

Best Wishes,
Adam Cherson

---
From: "David Goldman" <lugman@...>
Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 13:26:47 -0400

I am totally new to the issue of the DNA testing
(and just read some article online about who can get access to DNA
information >from genealogy research). I got my matches, and have contacted a
number of people who also did the Ancestry test. Only a couple have so far
replied, but one of them was classified as an "extremely high match" and I
saw the closeness based on having 204 centimorgans over 8 segments. Well, we
corresponded, and she told me that her mother's side was >from England/Wales,
and her father (who was adopted) had origins supposedly in the Balkans. The
only thing we had in common was that she lived in Alberta and I was born
there myself.
Can someone shed some light on this fog? How can this demonstrate an
"extremely high" likelihood of being 2nd-3rd cousins when there were no
common geographic origins at all?


DNA Research #DNA RE: Ancestry Matches #dna

Adam Cherson
 

Dear David,

Having been in a number of similar situations myself, I can only say
that in most cases the 'fog' is caused by my own (and that of my
co-researchers) lack of knowledge of the historical facts surrounding
our heritages. The dna doesn't lie... Clearly there is a mystery there.
Your job is to solve the case.

The first thing I would try to do is determine whether you are related
through her maternal or paternal sides. There are a number of techniques
and tests which can help in this regard and there is no time to explain
those here. If you are lucky enough to be related through her mother,
then there may be a documentary trail you can pick up. Otherwise, things
will be much more difficult since you will be confronted with an
investigation into the biological parents of her adopted father.

Take it one step at a time and keep seeking expert advice along the way.

Best Wishes,
Adam Cherson

---
From: "David Goldman" <lugman@...>
Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 13:26:47 -0400

I am totally new to the issue of the DNA testing
(and just read some article online about who can get access to DNA
information >from genealogy research). I got my matches, and have contacted a
number of people who also did the Ancestry test. Only a couple have so far
replied, but one of them was classified as an "extremely high match" and I
saw the closeness based on having 204 centimorgans over 8 segments. Well, we
corresponded, and she told me that her mother's side was >from England/Wales,
and her father (who was adopted) had origins supposedly in the Balkans. The
only thing we had in common was that she lived in Alberta and I was born
there myself.
Can someone shed some light on this fog? How can this demonstrate an
"extremely high" likelihood of being 2nd-3rd cousins when there were no
common geographic origins at all?


Else KNEDL (?Elsie KENDALL?) #general

tfanders@...
 

Dear Genners,

My gAunt Elsa Knedl, born in Vienna on April 14, 1892 survived WW II
hidden in Vienna. She came to the U.S. in 1947 and became a citizen in
1952. She lived her life in Buffalo at *** Delavan Ave, I am trying to
fin out the date of her death and whether she married and had a family.
She was married in Vienna but her husband, Julius Knedl died in 1930.
In 1957 (age 65) she filed a SocSec claim. A note on that claim is dated
Oct. 1976. Perhaps this marks the date of her death, perhaps at the age
of 84. Might someone be able to help me find a Buffalo obituary or death
notice and the associated information. I have tried numerous online
searches without success. Many thanks.

Tom Anders


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Else KNEDL (?Elsie KENDALL?) #general

tfanders@...
 

Dear Genners,

My gAunt Elsa Knedl, born in Vienna on April 14, 1892 survived WW II
hidden in Vienna. She came to the U.S. in 1947 and became a citizen in
1952. She lived her life in Buffalo at *** Delavan Ave, I am trying to
fin out the date of her death and whether she married and had a family.
She was married in Vienna but her husband, Julius Knedl died in 1930.
In 1957 (age 65) she filed a SocSec claim. A note on that claim is dated
Oct. 1976. Perhaps this marks the date of her death, perhaps at the age
of 84. Might someone be able to help me find a Buffalo obituary or death
notice and the associated information. I have tried numerous online
searches without success. Many thanks.

Tom Anders


Re: Are most WEILLs leviyim? #rabbinic

David Seldner
 

The Korban Netanel was not a levi. In Dr. Leopold Loewenstein's book about
Rabbi Nathanael Weil >from 1898 there is nothing written about a possible
levite ancestry. Since I was very involved with the Korban Netanel I am
sure I would know about this.

David Seldner, Karlsruhe

-----Original Message-----
From: tom <tomk@...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 10:12:55 -0400

A quick glance at the title pages of his books online,
<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/30659>,
and at his gravestone
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Die_Vorderseite_des_Grabsteines_auf_de
m_Grab_Rabbi_Nathanael_Weil,_2013.JPG>,
show no mention of his being a levite. (You might be mistaking "zt'l",
"zikhron tzadik livrakhah", for indicating a levite?)

....... tom klein, toronto

Bernard Weill <linktree@...> wrote:

Often times i am asked if i am related to the Korban Nesanel (a
commentary on the Talmud) and i am quick to answer no because i believe
the korban nesanel was a levi (levite) whereas i am not a levi...


Rabbinic Genealogy SIG #Rabbinic RE: Are most WEILLs leviyim? #rabbinic

David Seldner
 

The Korban Netanel was not a levi. In Dr. Leopold Loewenstein's book about
Rabbi Nathanael Weil >from 1898 there is nothing written about a possible
levite ancestry. Since I was very involved with the Korban Netanel I am
sure I would know about this.

David Seldner, Karlsruhe

-----Original Message-----
From: tom <tomk@...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 10:12:55 -0400

A quick glance at the title pages of his books online,
<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/30659>,
and at his gravestone
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Die_Vorderseite_des_Grabsteines_auf_de
m_Grab_Rabbi_Nathanael_Weil,_2013.JPG>,
show no mention of his being a levite. (You might be mistaking "zt'l",
"zikhron tzadik livrakhah", for indicating a levite?)

....... tom klein, toronto

Bernard Weill <linktree@...> wrote:

Often times i am asked if i am related to the Korban Nesanel (a
commentary on the Talmud) and i am quick to answer no because i believe
the korban nesanel was a levi (levite) whereas i am not a levi...