Date   

KOCH/BARBASCH/GINSBERG #austria-czech

milton koch <miltonkoch@...>
 

My family left Galicia around 1905- where my grandparents married, and moved
to Vienna. However, there were several additional siblings in this family
about whom I want to know whether they moved to Vienna as well, and any
additional information. Feige and Isak KOCH may have been married either in
Jagelnica or Podovolchisk.

Thank you.

Please reply to my email address.

Milton Koch
miltonkoch@...

MODERATOR NOTE: A reminder to all: Please type family surnames of interest in all
capital letters.


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech KOCH/BARBASCH/GINSBERG #austria-czech

milton koch <miltonkoch@...>
 

My family left Galicia around 1905- where my grandparents married, and moved
to Vienna. However, there were several additional siblings in this family
about whom I want to know whether they moved to Vienna as well, and any
additional information. Feige and Isak KOCH may have been married either in
Jagelnica or Podovolchisk.

Thank you.

Please reply to my email address.

Milton Koch
miltonkoch@...

MODERATOR NOTE: A reminder to all: Please type family surnames of interest in all
capital letters.


Fw: My gggrandfather - an enigma? #austria-czech

t_sinai1@...
 

----- Original Message -----
From: t_sinai1@...
To: <austriaczech@...>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 9:04 PM
Subject: My gggrandfather - an enigma?


My maternal great-great-grandfather, Juda (Yehuda) REDLICH was born cca. 1775,
in Rakwitz or in Bisenz (Bzenec) in Moravia, not far >from Goeding (Hodonin) and
the present Austrian border. He was known as Juda REDLICH >from Rakwitz (Rakovice).
His parents died when he was young. Here begins the engma. The family lore states
that he was brougt up by a Rabbi in Bisenz (who was the Rabbi and why did he take
him into his house?).

Now we are coming to some hard facts. He married his cousin Rebbeca (Rivka) JOKL,
but no mention of this wedding can be found in the State Archives in Prague. But
there is a wedding of Jacob REDLICH the older (der aeltere) with Rebbeca JOKL,
in 1800 the children of this marriage(the clergy mentioned only part of them) are
the same as Juda and Rebbeca's children.

Did he use his long dead father's name for registering the marriage by the clergy?

I assume that his father's name was Jacob, because when Juda's oldest son, Jacob,
married the cleric wrote Jacob REDLICH the younger (der juengere).

But it was impossible, at the beggining of the 19th century, that a Jewish father
who was still alive should call his son by his own name.

Therefore I assume that Juda's father's name was Jacob.

What is the base of my assumption? I am named Tsvi after my grandfather(who died
before I was born) Tsvi Herman FUCHS. When I visited the cemetery of Jirice u
Miroslavi, near Brno, three years ago, I found the tombstone of my other
ggrandfather, son of Tsvi Hirsh. So it seems obvious that Juda's oldest son should
carry the name of Juda's father.

But why did he pretend to be his father (if my assumptions and facts do line up?)
There are several possibilities.

If his father was a Familliant and Juda was not the firstborn that could be the
case. But how do we explain when in 1829 there is a marriage between Juda
REDLICH, widower (no mention of age) and Teresha ELSNER, spinster?

Juda and Rebbeca had ten children. The 4th child and second son, Aron Leb REDLICH,
was my greatgrandfather, the father of my maternal grandmother.

The oldest son Jacob, called Jekeilo, had an interesting and painful life. He
started to study in Nikolsburg (Mikulov), at the Rabbintcal school. with the
intention to continue his studies in Prague, at the Medical school. He came to
Mikulov together with his good friend SCHLESINGER, also >from Bisenz. SCHLESINGER
converted and became one of the Bishop's clerks. Jacob's parents were afraid that
SCHLESINGER will influence him and he had to return to Bisenz. He started to
teach privately. After his wife's death he moved to Vienna, together with his
son, Heinrich. In Vienna he founded a school for boys? (Knaben-schule.). He
married a widow, FRANKL, with 3 children and had 3 more (Dr. Hugo REDLICH M..D,
and the two others were scientist).

Can anybody help me solve this riddle?

By the way, is there any connection between the two tribes, the one >from Bisenz
and the second >from Goeding, not far apart.

Tsvi Sinai
Givatayim, Israel


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Fw: My gggrandfather - an enigma? #austria-czech

t_sinai1@...
 

----- Original Message -----
From: t_sinai1@...
To: <austriaczech@...>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 9:04 PM
Subject: My gggrandfather - an enigma?


My maternal great-great-grandfather, Juda (Yehuda) REDLICH was born cca. 1775,
in Rakwitz or in Bisenz (Bzenec) in Moravia, not far >from Goeding (Hodonin) and
the present Austrian border. He was known as Juda REDLICH >from Rakwitz (Rakovice).
His parents died when he was young. Here begins the engma. The family lore states
that he was brougt up by a Rabbi in Bisenz (who was the Rabbi and why did he take
him into his house?).

Now we are coming to some hard facts. He married his cousin Rebbeca (Rivka) JOKL,
but no mention of this wedding can be found in the State Archives in Prague. But
there is a wedding of Jacob REDLICH the older (der aeltere) with Rebbeca JOKL,
in 1800 the children of this marriage(the clergy mentioned only part of them) are
the same as Juda and Rebbeca's children.

Did he use his long dead father's name for registering the marriage by the clergy?

I assume that his father's name was Jacob, because when Juda's oldest son, Jacob,
married the cleric wrote Jacob REDLICH the younger (der juengere).

But it was impossible, at the beggining of the 19th century, that a Jewish father
who was still alive should call his son by his own name.

Therefore I assume that Juda's father's name was Jacob.

What is the base of my assumption? I am named Tsvi after my grandfather(who died
before I was born) Tsvi Herman FUCHS. When I visited the cemetery of Jirice u
Miroslavi, near Brno, three years ago, I found the tombstone of my other
ggrandfather, son of Tsvi Hirsh. So it seems obvious that Juda's oldest son should
carry the name of Juda's father.

But why did he pretend to be his father (if my assumptions and facts do line up?)
There are several possibilities.

If his father was a Familliant and Juda was not the firstborn that could be the
case. But how do we explain when in 1829 there is a marriage between Juda
REDLICH, widower (no mention of age) and Teresha ELSNER, spinster?

Juda and Rebbeca had ten children. The 4th child and second son, Aron Leb REDLICH,
was my greatgrandfather, the father of my maternal grandmother.

The oldest son Jacob, called Jekeilo, had an interesting and painful life. He
started to study in Nikolsburg (Mikulov), at the Rabbintcal school. with the
intention to continue his studies in Prague, at the Medical school. He came to
Mikulov together with his good friend SCHLESINGER, also >from Bisenz. SCHLESINGER
converted and became one of the Bishop's clerks. Jacob's parents were afraid that
SCHLESINGER will influence him and he had to return to Bisenz. He started to
teach privately. After his wife's death he moved to Vienna, together with his
son, Heinrich. In Vienna he founded a school for boys? (Knaben-schule.). He
married a widow, FRANKL, with 3 children and had 3 more (Dr. Hugo REDLICH M..D,
and the two others were scientist).

Can anybody help me solve this riddle?

By the way, is there any connection between the two tribes, the one >from Bisenz
and the second >from Goeding, not far apart.

Tsvi Sinai
Givatayim, Israel


Re: Advice needed; newly located relative won't share family data! #general

Larry Gaum <lgaum@...>
 

Don't waste your time. If the family decided not to cooperate with you,
forget it. Try to get the information >from some other family source.
I had a similiar situation when I was writing my book, and one branch of the
family refused to talk to me, even though I was always close with the
father. I also found out the reason: He was sure I wanted money for my
project, although I wasn't looking for any financial assistance. He
couldn't be convinced otherwise. Sadly enough, his part of the family, an
integral part, was left out of the book. This is not unique and this story
of being afraid someone will ask for money is rather common.
Don't waste your time however if they won't cooperate.
Larry Gaum


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Advice needed; newly located relative won't share family data! #general

Larry Gaum <lgaum@...>
 

Don't waste your time. If the family decided not to cooperate with you,
forget it. Try to get the information >from some other family source.
I had a similiar situation when I was writing my book, and one branch of the
family refused to talk to me, even though I was always close with the
father. I also found out the reason: He was sure I wanted money for my
project, although I wasn't looking for any financial assistance. He
couldn't be convinced otherwise. Sadly enough, his part of the family, an
integral part, was left out of the book. This is not unique and this story
of being afraid someone will ask for money is rather common.
Don't waste your time however if they won't cooperate.
Larry Gaum


Looking for Lea KLEIN - PoT submitter #general

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

I would like to get in touch with Mrs. Lea KLEIN, >from Israel, who in 1999
submitted a Page of Testimony for her grandmother Juliska VELENCZEI nee
Berger, born in Torokszentmiklos. If you know Mrs. Klein and can put me in
touch with her, please reply in private.

Many thanks in advance and regards
--
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@...>
Sao Paulo - Brazil


Looking for Avishai VENEZIANER - PoT submitter #general

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

I would like to get in touch with Mr. Avishai VENETZIANER, >from Israel, who
in 1989 submitted a Page of Testimony for his grandfather Baruch-Bela
VENETIANER, born in Hungary. If you know Mr. Venetzianer and can put me in
touch with him, please reply in private.

Many thanks in advance and regards
--
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@...>
Sao Paulo - Brazil


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Looking for Lea KLEIN - PoT submitter #general

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

I would like to get in touch with Mrs. Lea KLEIN, >from Israel, who in 1999
submitted a Page of Testimony for her grandmother Juliska VELENCZEI nee
Berger, born in Torokszentmiklos. If you know Mrs. Klein and can put me in
touch with her, please reply in private.

Many thanks in advance and regards
--
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@...>
Sao Paulo - Brazil


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Looking for Avishai VENEZIANER - PoT submitter #general

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

I would like to get in touch with Mr. Avishai VENETZIANER, >from Israel, who
in 1989 submitted a Page of Testimony for his grandfather Baruch-Bela
VENETIANER, born in Hungary. If you know Mr. Venetzianer and can put me in
touch with him, please reply in private.

Many thanks in advance and regards
--
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@...>
Sao Paulo - Brazil


Re: Challah twists as a sign of family origin #general

NFatouros@...
 

On Jan.02, 2005, Alan Steinfeld (alansteinfeld@...) wrote:

I recall reading an article, several years ago, on the use of the design
of the braid in a loaf of challah as an indication of the site of origin
of a family. Does anyone know where the article appeared?
Challah is a subject I'd never before given a single thought to, let alone a
second one! I do remember that when I was very young, my father would to stop
on the way home >from his office at a neighborhood bakery to pick up a loaf of
challah, before he proceeded a few steps more to buy the evening newspaper at
the candy and sundries store around the corner on Broadway.

Although I don't recall eating this bread, I do remember I did not much like
it because it was too sweet. (Friday evening meals, prepared by our live-in
long-suffering Czech maid, were very bland and dull. They usually consisted of
falling-apart slices of white fish, some mushy potatoes, and soggy string
beans. Whether they were served on Fridays or other days dinners at the
Feldmans were usually grim. Not only was the food almost always unappetizing
but hovering over it was the palpably hostile tension between my parents,
even when my brother, who was a main cause of that tension, was not present
at the table. Often this tension broke into angry words. My mother often
resorted to using a tissue or handkerchief which she'd kept tucked in her
sleeve, and when the exchanges became too oppressive, as they almost always
did, she would rise >from the table to go to the bathroom >from which she would
return to the dinner table with a fresh tissue, and spend the rest of the
mealtime dabbing her reddened, moist eyes.)

Still, although I do not have fond memories of Friday nights, I thought Mr.
Steinfeld's question mildly interesting so I did a quick search on the
internet. Using the search terms "challah braiding," I first turned up some
websites which offered what was to me an astonishing midrashic story that God
had braided Eve's hair before presenting Adam with his (second?)mate.
Elsewhere on the Interet I also read about the significance of round challahs.

I then altered my search terms a little, and found a website which offered an
abstract of an article by Joan Nathan. The article was entitled "Braids,
Birds, and Corns" and was published in 1992 by Moment Magazine. According to the
articles' abstract, Ms. Nathan recounts the history and origin of Challah and
"explains the variations in types of bread, shape and braiding of Hallah as
reflected in the customs and traditions evolved in different countries, by
different ethnic groups and through the ages."

Mr. Steinfeld might try writing to "editor@..." to find out where
or in which Moment Magazine issue he can read the full article. or he can try:
www.momentmag.com .

Naomi Fatouros (nee FELDMAN)
Bloomington, Indiana
NFatouros@...
BELKOWSKY,BIELKOWSKY, BILKOWSKI, Odessa,St. Petersburg,Berdichev,
Kiev;ROTHSTEIN, Kremenchug;FRASCH,Kiev;LIBERMAN,Moscow;FELDMAN, Pinsk;
SCHUTZ, RETTIG, WAHL, Shcherets;LEVY, WEIL, Mulhouse; SAS/SASS,Podwolochisk;
RAPOPORT, Tarnopol, Podwolochisk, Radomysl?; BEHAM, Salok, Kharkov;
WOLPIANSKY, Ostryna.


Re: Searching ..in Israel #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 04:10:54 UTC, gershie@... (Albert Gershman) opined:

Found in the Yad Vashem "Pages of Testimony" the fate of a long missing
branch of my Dufine branch >from Mezhirich. This was a positive match for
all the information that I already had. Testimomy was given in 1957 by
Tzvi Mariel beleived to be living in B'nai Barak at that time and
married to Rachel (nee Dufine) the only known survivor of Kaifa & Sarah
Dufine. I am searching for descendants of Tzvi & Rachel Mariel. The
information that I had indicated that they might have had at least two
children.
A good place to start your search is at the three H.evrot Qadisha that
operate in Bnei-Braq, the addresses (postal and telephone) of which you can
find in a PDF file at the website of the Israel Genealogical Society in both
English and Hebrew. The URL is:
http://www.isragen.org.il/ROS/ARCHIVES/HevrotKadisha-Eng2.pdf

I have no experience of any of the three societies, but by analogy with
those elsewhere, you may expect them to be able to supply dates and causes
of death,exact location of graves, place of residence at the time of death,
and (hopefully) the name of a survivor. (I promise nothing here). You may
have enough to approach the Population Registry of the Ministry of Interior
with questions about how to find survivors.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Challah twists as a sign of family origin #general

NFatouros@...
 

On Jan.02, 2005, Alan Steinfeld (alansteinfeld@...) wrote:

I recall reading an article, several years ago, on the use of the design
of the braid in a loaf of challah as an indication of the site of origin
of a family. Does anyone know where the article appeared?
Challah is a subject I'd never before given a single thought to, let alone a
second one! I do remember that when I was very young, my father would to stop
on the way home >from his office at a neighborhood bakery to pick up a loaf of
challah, before he proceeded a few steps more to buy the evening newspaper at
the candy and sundries store around the corner on Broadway.

Although I don't recall eating this bread, I do remember I did not much like
it because it was too sweet. (Friday evening meals, prepared by our live-in
long-suffering Czech maid, were very bland and dull. They usually consisted of
falling-apart slices of white fish, some mushy potatoes, and soggy string
beans. Whether they were served on Fridays or other days dinners at the
Feldmans were usually grim. Not only was the food almost always unappetizing
but hovering over it was the palpably hostile tension between my parents,
even when my brother, who was a main cause of that tension, was not present
at the table. Often this tension broke into angry words. My mother often
resorted to using a tissue or handkerchief which she'd kept tucked in her
sleeve, and when the exchanges became too oppressive, as they almost always
did, she would rise >from the table to go to the bathroom >from which she would
return to the dinner table with a fresh tissue, and spend the rest of the
mealtime dabbing her reddened, moist eyes.)

Still, although I do not have fond memories of Friday nights, I thought Mr.
Steinfeld's question mildly interesting so I did a quick search on the
internet. Using the search terms "challah braiding," I first turned up some
websites which offered what was to me an astonishing midrashic story that God
had braided Eve's hair before presenting Adam with his (second?)mate.
Elsewhere on the Interet I also read about the significance of round challahs.

I then altered my search terms a little, and found a website which offered an
abstract of an article by Joan Nathan. The article was entitled "Braids,
Birds, and Corns" and was published in 1992 by Moment Magazine. According to the
articles' abstract, Ms. Nathan recounts the history and origin of Challah and
"explains the variations in types of bread, shape and braiding of Hallah as
reflected in the customs and traditions evolved in different countries, by
different ethnic groups and through the ages."

Mr. Steinfeld might try writing to "editor@..." to find out where
or in which Moment Magazine issue he can read the full article. or he can try:
www.momentmag.com .

Naomi Fatouros (nee FELDMAN)
Bloomington, Indiana
NFatouros@...
BELKOWSKY,BIELKOWSKY, BILKOWSKI, Odessa,St. Petersburg,Berdichev,
Kiev;ROTHSTEIN, Kremenchug;FRASCH,Kiev;LIBERMAN,Moscow;FELDMAN, Pinsk;
SCHUTZ, RETTIG, WAHL, Shcherets;LEVY, WEIL, Mulhouse; SAS/SASS,Podwolochisk;
RAPOPORT, Tarnopol, Podwolochisk, Radomysl?; BEHAM, Salok, Kharkov;
WOLPIANSKY, Ostryna.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Searching ..in Israel #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 04:10:54 UTC, gershie@... (Albert Gershman) opined:

Found in the Yad Vashem "Pages of Testimony" the fate of a long missing
branch of my Dufine branch >from Mezhirich. This was a positive match for
all the information that I already had. Testimomy was given in 1957 by
Tzvi Mariel beleived to be living in B'nai Barak at that time and
married to Rachel (nee Dufine) the only known survivor of Kaifa & Sarah
Dufine. I am searching for descendants of Tzvi & Rachel Mariel. The
information that I had indicated that they might have had at least two
children.
A good place to start your search is at the three H.evrot Qadisha that
operate in Bnei-Braq, the addresses (postal and telephone) of which you can
find in a PDF file at the website of the Israel Genealogical Society in both
English and Hebrew. The URL is:
http://www.isragen.org.il/ROS/ARCHIVES/HevrotKadisha-Eng2.pdf

I have no experience of any of the three societies, but by analogy with
those elsewhere, you may expect them to be able to supply dates and causes
of death,exact location of graves, place of residence at the time of death,
and (hopefully) the name of a survivor. (I promise nothing here). You may
have enough to approach the Population Registry of the Ministry of Interior
with questions about how to find survivors.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.


Conscription at age 5? #belarus

Ziegelman <zieg_exp@...>
 

If I recall correctly, the conscription age was 8 - for service of 25 years!
The young Jewish children were farmed off to Christian families where they
were to work until they were old enough to serve in the army. When they were
released, they were permitted to live outside of the Pale of Settlement,
that is, in Russia itself. Some of these Jewish soldiers remained Jewish.In
the last ten years I've heard stories >from people alive today who are
descendents of these Jewish conscripts.
Kind regards,
Andi Alpert Ziegelman
Searching:
ALPEROVICH Iin Kurenecs, Postawy and Vileika
Mishler/Mysli/Mishuli/Misuli in Vilkomir
Feinberg in Kovarsk and thereabouts


Belarus SIG #Belarus Conscription at age 5? #belarus

Ziegelman <zieg_exp@...>
 

If I recall correctly, the conscription age was 8 - for service of 25 years!
The young Jewish children were farmed off to Christian families where they
were to work until they were old enough to serve in the army. When they were
released, they were permitted to live outside of the Pale of Settlement,
that is, in Russia itself. Some of these Jewish soldiers remained Jewish.In
the last ten years I've heard stories >from people alive today who are
descendents of these Jewish conscripts.
Kind regards,
Andi Alpert Ziegelman
Searching:
ALPEROVICH Iin Kurenecs, Postawy and Vileika
Mishler/Mysli/Mishuli/Misuli in Vilkomir
Feinberg in Kovarsk and thereabouts


PORGES web site #austria-czech

E. Randol Schoenberg
 

I'm not sure if it has been posted before (I didn't find a reference in our
SIG archives) but I stumbled across a wonderful PORGES family website at
http://www.porges.net/. It has lots of useful and interesting information
related to this old Jewish family >from Prague.

Randy Schoenberg
Los Angeles, CA


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech PORGES web site #austria-czech

E. Randol Schoenberg
 

I'm not sure if it has been posted before (I didn't find a reference in our
SIG archives) but I stumbled across a wonderful PORGES family website at
http://www.porges.net/. It has lots of useful and interesting information
related to this old Jewish family >from Prague.

Randy Schoenberg
Los Angeles, CA


Kalisz records now complete and online #general

Susan Fifer <suef@...>
 

I am pleased to let you know that the records for the town of Kalisz
have now all been uploaded into the JRI (Jewish Records Indexing)
database and that the indexing for this town is now complete. Thanks
to all those who contributed to the project in terms of funding,
indexing and other support and in particular to Madeleine Okladek and
Jan Engel.

Sue

Sue Fifer, London, England
suef@...


BLANKSTEIN/KLAWER - Thank you #general

Primpark <primpark@...>
 

I would like to thank everyone who was kind enough to write to me, offering
their assistance in connection with my recent inquiry - your help was
invaluable.

Once again, many thanks.

Jonathan Newman,

Leeds, England

Primpark@...