Date   
Re: one more on mixed marriages #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:52:07 UTC, anitac47@... (ac) opined:

I don't recall who posted it but the subject was about blue eyes, blond or
red hair among Jews. The poster stated this was because of rape. Which made
the offspring of mixed parentage. If you want to parse out anyone whose
origins are obviously Semitic I would have to say my paternal grandmother
was the product of something less than kosher. She looks 100% Russian and
everyone but my father (darn!) had beautiful blue eyes. My maternal
grandfather was red haired and blue eyed. Wherever it came >from these were
not traits of Semitic tribes we are descended from. They got mixed in along
the way. So we all, to some degree are products of inter-relations whatever
they were--conversion or rape.

I would vote for DNA and blood to be the basis of a family tree.
Whether "basis" or "supplement" might require more thought before actually
voting. As to the chromatic argument adduced above, King David himself is
described as being a good-looking redhead.

It is unnecessary, by the way, to assume rape as the only background of gene
mixing, even (or especially) in the medieval period. As Jews moved into
areas in which there had been none previously, you can assume that young and
unattached male merchants were among the very first. You can also assume
that being the first arrival in an economically promising situation didn't
guarantee continued celibacy. I don't think it can have been unusual for
such a trader to take a wife >from among the local girls. Given that the
first groups of Jews in Eastern Europe were very small (so I have been told
by a Jewish Gen user who generally knows what he is talking about), it would
not have required many such pairings to make a statistical impression, and
to introduce new physical characteristics into the gene pool of Eastern
European Jews. (This argument works equally well for other areas of Jewish
settlement, e.g. North Africa and Iran.) And of course, mixed marriages
didn't stop then either. All this without *relying* on rape.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com
For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.

JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: one more on mixed marriages #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:52:07 UTC, anitac47@... (ac) opined:

I don't recall who posted it but the subject was about blue eyes, blond or
red hair among Jews. The poster stated this was because of rape. Which made
the offspring of mixed parentage. If you want to parse out anyone whose
origins are obviously Semitic I would have to say my paternal grandmother
was the product of something less than kosher. She looks 100% Russian and
everyone but my father (darn!) had beautiful blue eyes. My maternal
grandfather was red haired and blue eyed. Wherever it came >from these were
not traits of Semitic tribes we are descended from. They got mixed in along
the way. So we all, to some degree are products of inter-relations whatever
they were--conversion or rape.

I would vote for DNA and blood to be the basis of a family tree.
Whether "basis" or "supplement" might require more thought before actually
voting. As to the chromatic argument adduced above, King David himself is
described as being a good-looking redhead.

It is unnecessary, by the way, to assume rape as the only background of gene
mixing, even (or especially) in the medieval period. As Jews moved into
areas in which there had been none previously, you can assume that young and
unattached male merchants were among the very first. You can also assume
that being the first arrival in an economically promising situation didn't
guarantee continued celibacy. I don't think it can have been unusual for
such a trader to take a wife >from among the local girls. Given that the
first groups of Jews in Eastern Europe were very small (so I have been told
by a Jewish Gen user who generally knows what he is talking about), it would
not have required many such pairings to make a statistical impression, and
to introduce new physical characteristics into the gene pool of Eastern
European Jews. (This argument works equally well for other areas of Jewish
settlement, e.g. North Africa and Iran.) And of course, mixed marriages
didn't stop then either. All this without *relying* on rape.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com
For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.

family tree and intermarriage #general

Eliana Aizim
 

When he/she doesn´t want to include intermarriage in the family
tree, it sounds as a punishment to the person who did something
that he/she disapproves. It´s as if he/she were saying: "I won´t
give you dessert because I didn´t like your behaviour".
In other words: in a family tree, is anyone going to omit those who
one doesn´t like? Such as: "I hate her, so I won´t have her in my
family tree". Should the genealogist choose only the "nice" couples
to his tree?!
In my own family tree, there´s quite a lot of intermarriage, and if
I take them away, the new generations will scarcely exist and the
tree will diminish. In reality, it´s getting bigger and bigger.

Eliana AIZIM, >from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
see photo album: http://www.geocities.com/elianaaizim/photo2.html

AISEN, AIZEN, AISIN: Lugansk, Ekaterinoslav Gubernia, Ukraine / Buenos Aires,
Argentina / Rio de Janeiro, Brazil; GUREVICH: Lugansk (Voroshilovgrad), Yuzovka
(Stalino, Donetsk),Ekaterinoslav Gubernia, Ukraine / Philadelphia, USA;
VATNICK, VAITMAN, WHITE: Pischonka, Zabokrich, Kryzhopol, Podolia Gubernia,
Ukraine / Toronto, Canada; / Rio Janeiro, Brazil; AVERBUCH: Zabokrich, Kryzhopol,
Podolia Gubernia, Ukraine / Colonia Quatro Irmaos, (Baron Hirsch), RS, Brazil.

JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen family tree and intermarriage #general

Eliana Aizim
 

When he/she doesn´t want to include intermarriage in the family
tree, it sounds as a punishment to the person who did something
that he/she disapproves. It´s as if he/she were saying: "I won´t
give you dessert because I didn´t like your behaviour".
In other words: in a family tree, is anyone going to omit those who
one doesn´t like? Such as: "I hate her, so I won´t have her in my
family tree". Should the genealogist choose only the "nice" couples
to his tree?!
In my own family tree, there´s quite a lot of intermarriage, and if
I take them away, the new generations will scarcely exist and the
tree will diminish. In reality, it´s getting bigger and bigger.

Eliana AIZIM, >from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
see photo album: http://www.geocities.com/elianaaizim/photo2.html

AISEN, AIZEN, AISIN: Lugansk, Ekaterinoslav Gubernia, Ukraine / Buenos Aires,
Argentina / Rio de Janeiro, Brazil; GUREVICH: Lugansk (Voroshilovgrad), Yuzovka
(Stalino, Donetsk),Ekaterinoslav Gubernia, Ukraine / Philadelphia, USA;
VATNICK, VAITMAN, WHITE: Pischonka, Zabokrich, Kryzhopol, Podolia Gubernia,
Ukraine / Toronto, Canada; / Rio Janeiro, Brazil; AVERBUCH: Zabokrich, Kryzhopol,
Podolia Gubernia, Ukraine / Colonia Quatro Irmaos, (Baron Hirsch), RS, Brazil.

Researching JACOBSON connection in Zagare, Lithuania #general

Joel Ratner
 

The following JACOBSON researchers are listed in the Family Finder under
Zagare, Lith., yet all attempts to contact them by e-mail have failed. Could
the following peolle please contact me regarding a possible connection?

Stanley Judd

Michael Jacobson

Estelle Jacobson

Cheryl Gordon

Milton Jacobson



Joel Ratner
Coordinator, Vilna District Research Group

researching JACOBSON >from Vilna, Akmene and Zagare

JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Researching JACOBSON connection in Zagare, Lithuania #general

Joel Ratner
 

The following JACOBSON researchers are listed in the Family Finder under
Zagare, Lith., yet all attempts to contact them by e-mail have failed. Could
the following peolle please contact me regarding a possible connection?

Stanley Judd

Michael Jacobson

Estelle Jacobson

Cheryl Gordon

Milton Jacobson



Joel Ratner
Coordinator, Vilna District Research Group

researching JACOBSON >from Vilna, Akmene and Zagare

Re: Regional Archives Of Boskovice #austria-czech

E. Randol Schoenberg
 

I would be remiss in not taking the opportunity to mention that Boskowitz
also became a name. My great-grandfather's sister Bertha ZEISL (b. 1866
Moravia) married Karl David BOSCOWITZ (b. 1859 Budapest) in Vienna on 26 Sep
1886. Karl's parents were Simon BOSCOWITZ and and Fanni KOHN. One of
Bertha and Karl's grandchildren is Monique BOSCO, a well-known author in
Montreal.

Randol Schoenberg
Los Angeles, CA

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: Regional Archives Of Boskovice #austria-czech

E. Randol Schoenberg
 

I would be remiss in not taking the opportunity to mention that Boskowitz
also became a name. My great-grandfather's sister Bertha ZEISL (b. 1866
Moravia) married Karl David BOSCOWITZ (b. 1859 Budapest) in Vienna on 26 Sep
1886. Karl's parents were Simon BOSCOWITZ and and Fanni KOHN. One of
Bertha and Karl's grandchildren is Monique BOSCO, a well-known author in
Montreal.

Randol Schoenberg
Los Angeles, CA

#Warsaw #Poland #warsaw #poland

"serge.schwartzmann@worldonline.fr <serge.schwartzmann@...>
 

Marseille, France February 4th=0D=0AI am starting a research on family me=
mbers who lived in=0D=0AOtwock and Praga before the war. The family names=
are=0D=0AHuberman (for Otwock) and Wajnflasz (for Praga)=0D=0AI would be=
very interested if you could tell me where to=0D=0Afind more accurate in=
formations=0D=0AI am also interested to find old photos of Otwock before =
the=0D=0Awar.=0D=0AThanks=0A*

Warszawa Research Group #warsaw #poland

"serge.schwartzmann@worldonline.fr <serge.schwartzmann@...>
 

Marseille, France February 4th=0D=0AI am starting a research on family me=
mbers who lived in=0D=0AOtwock and Praga before the war. The family names=
are=0D=0AHuberman (for Otwock) and Wajnflasz (for Praga)=0D=0AI would be=
very interested if you could tell me where to=0D=0Afind more accurate in=
formations=0D=0AI am also interested to find old photos of Otwock before =
the=0D=0Awar.=0D=0AThanks=0A*

Re: immigrating to America #general

Peregrine Maitland <273589roots@...>
 

These are all very interesting questions and many in this group have
wondered about that part of the emigrant experience. For answers to some of
these questions and to get an idea of what it was like for many, I would
recommend a book by Irving Howe called "The World of Our Fathers", Shocken
Books, 1989.

It's a wonderful social and cultural history of 19th and early 20th century
East European Jewish immigration to the United States---a well written, good
read for those of us fascinated by the lives of our immigrant ancestors.

For the questions posed here, see chapters 1) Origins and 2) Departure and
Arrival

Peregrine Maitland
273589roots@...
To reply, delete all numeric characters
from the return address given.
"Marilyn F" <mrl516@...> wrote
I have often wondered about the whole process of immigrating to America
during the hugh wave of immigration up until 1913 >from the Ukraine and
Moldova.

l.. Did they feel safe sharing the fact that they were leaving with friends?

2. Where did they buy the tickets to leave or get the necessary paperwork?

3. Once someone decided to leave, what squence of events might occur?

4. How was the port of departure decided? Who directed them in the process
of immigration?

5. Did ships have "reputations' so that people knew which ship to take or
did they take whatever was available?.

6. Typically, how long was the trip >from the shtetl to the port? Were there
inns along the way? If not, where did they eat and sleep?

7. What sort of identification or papers were required to leave?

JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: immigrating to America #general

Peregrine Maitland <273589roots@...>
 

These are all very interesting questions and many in this group have
wondered about that part of the emigrant experience. For answers to some of
these questions and to get an idea of what it was like for many, I would
recommend a book by Irving Howe called "The World of Our Fathers", Shocken
Books, 1989.

It's a wonderful social and cultural history of 19th and early 20th century
East European Jewish immigration to the United States---a well written, good
read for those of us fascinated by the lives of our immigrant ancestors.

For the questions posed here, see chapters 1) Origins and 2) Departure and
Arrival

Peregrine Maitland
273589roots@...
To reply, delete all numeric characters
from the return address given.
"Marilyn F" <mrl516@...> wrote
I have often wondered about the whole process of immigrating to America
during the hugh wave of immigration up until 1913 >from the Ukraine and
Moldova.

l.. Did they feel safe sharing the fact that they were leaving with friends?

2. Where did they buy the tickets to leave or get the necessary paperwork?

3. Once someone decided to leave, what squence of events might occur?

4. How was the port of departure decided? Who directed them in the process
of immigration?

5. Did ships have "reputations' so that people knew which ship to take or
did they take whatever was available?.

6. Typically, how long was the trip >from the shtetl to the port? Were there
inns along the way? If not, where did they eat and sleep?

7. What sort of identification or papers were required to leave?

Ginsburg & Klausner in S Fallsburg Sullivan County New York ?? #general

Susan Goldsmith
 

Dear Jewish Gen,
Does anyone know what sort of establishment Ginsburg & Klausner was in S Fallsburg
Sullivan County, New York in the early 1900s? I have been unsuccessful in
finding my grandmother Rachel-Leia (Lena) DRASNAN(sp?) HOROWITZ, who emigrated in
1905 to NY >from the Dolginovo/Vileika area, then in Vilnius Gubernia, now in
Belarus. She had been a baker in Dolginovo. She came as a widow and would have
had to work. In 1907 she wrote a letter with the return address: c/o Ginsburg &
Klausner, P.O. Box 107 S. Fallsburg Station, NY. She died before 1915, not in NYC,
but I have been unable to find any more details.
Thank you,
Susan Goldsmith
San Francisco Bay Area

HOROWITZ (GUREWICZ), DRASNAN Dolginovo, Vileika Belarus
TOBIAS, ROZHANSKY, FOGEL , RUSAK Novyy Sverzhen, Stolbtsy, Mir, Baranovichi,
Yasevichi Belarus GOLDSHMIDT, SHOLOMOVICH (SHLOMOVICH, SHLIOMOVICH), GITTES,
(GA(U)DES, GADIE, GADYE,GIDUT, GDUD), F(P)ILVINSKY,DRUSHKOVICH, NEKRITZ,
ZHIZSMORSKI, ZUKHOVSKI,ROCHELSON Seta, Kaunas,Jonava, Vandziogala, Kedainiai,
Ukmerge, Viliampole, Adutiskis,Trepai, Krakes, Zemaiciu Naumiestes Lithuania

MODERATOR NOTE: Surname list truncated at 6 lines

JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Ginsburg & Klausner in S Fallsburg Sullivan County New York ?? #general

Susan Goldsmith
 

Dear Jewish Gen,
Does anyone know what sort of establishment Ginsburg & Klausner was in S Fallsburg
Sullivan County, New York in the early 1900s? I have been unsuccessful in
finding my grandmother Rachel-Leia (Lena) DRASNAN(sp?) HOROWITZ, who emigrated in
1905 to NY >from the Dolginovo/Vileika area, then in Vilnius Gubernia, now in
Belarus. She had been a baker in Dolginovo. She came as a widow and would have
had to work. In 1907 she wrote a letter with the return address: c/o Ginsburg &
Klausner, P.O. Box 107 S. Fallsburg Station, NY. She died before 1915, not in NYC,
but I have been unable to find any more details.
Thank you,
Susan Goldsmith
San Francisco Bay Area

HOROWITZ (GUREWICZ), DRASNAN Dolginovo, Vileika Belarus
TOBIAS, ROZHANSKY, FOGEL , RUSAK Novyy Sverzhen, Stolbtsy, Mir, Baranovichi,
Yasevichi Belarus GOLDSHMIDT, SHOLOMOVICH (SHLOMOVICH, SHLIOMOVICH), GITTES,
(GA(U)DES, GADIE, GADYE,GIDUT, GDUD), F(P)ILVINSKY,DRUSHKOVICH, NEKRITZ,
ZHIZSMORSKI, ZUKHOVSKI,ROCHELSON Seta, Kaunas,Jonava, Vandziogala, Kedainiai,
Ukmerge, Viliampole, Adutiskis,Trepai, Krakes, Zemaiciu Naumiestes Lithuania

MODERATOR NOTE: Surname list truncated at 6 lines

RE hymoff/ #france

Jean-Louis Helbronner <jlhelbro@...>
 

1. Re: HYMOFF/HIMOFF
You can also find quite a few people in Paris bearing the name IMHOF and
IMHOFF, or even HAIMOFF. You can find them at
http://wfc.pagesjaunes.fr/pb.cgi (I did not look further)
Jean-Louis Helbronner, Paris, France
treasurer GenAmi
jl.helbro@...
http://www.genami.org

French SIG #France RE hymoff/ #france

Jean-Louis Helbronner <jlhelbro@...>
 

1. Re: HYMOFF/HIMOFF
You can also find quite a few people in Paris bearing the name IMHOF and
IMHOFF, or even HAIMOFF. You can find them at
http://wfc.pagesjaunes.fr/pb.cgi (I did not look further)
Jean-Louis Helbronner, Paris, France
treasurer GenAmi
jl.helbro@...
http://www.genami.org

Regional Archives Of Boskovice #austria-czech

Charlie Roberts <charlie.roberts@...>
 

Robert Hanscom enquired about other sources for the Jewish records of
Boskovice. Like him I have faced similar problems because the primary
records for the years 1849-1924 are missing ie Matrikeln/Registers for
Birth, Marriage and Death.

In our case we have built up several AUFRICHTIG family trees originating in
Boskovice but because of the missing registers have great difficulty in
linking them. My brother and I are convinced that one day we will be able to
link them together.

In the absence of the primary records we have relied on a number of
secondary sources and have tabulated these records on our family website
www.aufrichtigs.com created by my brother Ronny. We were however extremely
fortunate in having the services of a suberb researcher at a reasonable
cost. I wrote to him in English and he replied in German.

For any one interested in these secondary sources, go to the above website,
then click on 'Other Aufrichtigs' and then on Boskovice Registers and
Records'. Besides the Registers/Matrikeln you will find other sources. It
should be pointed out that it required 'painstaking' time consuming work
going through the secondary handwritten sources.

With regard to the secondary sources my brother and I would welcome
assistance comments/correction on our translations of titles as follows:

Die Rekrutverzeichnisse Boskovice 1870-1901 - The Army recruitment lists
relating to Boskovice 1870-1901.

Einzahllungsstabelle der Judensteuer fur den Jahr 1847,1844,1841 - Receipts
tables of the Jewish Tax for the years etc'

Hauserverzeichnis in der Judenstadt Boskovice - House tables of the Jewish
Town (Ghetto) of Boskovice'

Die Steuer von Familiaten, IKG Boskovice - 'The ?? tax of the Jewish
Community of Boskovice.

Tabellarprotokol uber Hauserbesitzer und Zinzen Boskovice - Boskovice record
tables of house owners and interest??

Volkszahlungen - National Censuses

Charlie Roberts ne Aufrichtig (London,England)

Researching AUFRICHTIG Boskovice, Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia, Vienna,
Austria, Europe, Worldwide
WODAK Brumovice, HUSSERL/HAUSLER Boskovice, HUBER Damborice, SCHULER
Brumovice, LOKSCHAN Boskovice

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Regional Archives Of Boskovice #austria-czech

Charlie Roberts <charlie.roberts@...>
 

Robert Hanscom enquired about other sources for the Jewish records of
Boskovice. Like him I have faced similar problems because the primary
records for the years 1849-1924 are missing ie Matrikeln/Registers for
Birth, Marriage and Death.

In our case we have built up several AUFRICHTIG family trees originating in
Boskovice but because of the missing registers have great difficulty in
linking them. My brother and I are convinced that one day we will be able to
link them together.

In the absence of the primary records we have relied on a number of
secondary sources and have tabulated these records on our family website
www.aufrichtigs.com created by my brother Ronny. We were however extremely
fortunate in having the services of a suberb researcher at a reasonable
cost. I wrote to him in English and he replied in German.

For any one interested in these secondary sources, go to the above website,
then click on 'Other Aufrichtigs' and then on Boskovice Registers and
Records'. Besides the Registers/Matrikeln you will find other sources. It
should be pointed out that it required 'painstaking' time consuming work
going through the secondary handwritten sources.

With regard to the secondary sources my brother and I would welcome
assistance comments/correction on our translations of titles as follows:

Die Rekrutverzeichnisse Boskovice 1870-1901 - The Army recruitment lists
relating to Boskovice 1870-1901.

Einzahllungsstabelle der Judensteuer fur den Jahr 1847,1844,1841 - Receipts
tables of the Jewish Tax for the years etc'

Hauserverzeichnis in der Judenstadt Boskovice - House tables of the Jewish
Town (Ghetto) of Boskovice'

Die Steuer von Familiaten, IKG Boskovice - 'The ?? tax of the Jewish
Community of Boskovice.

Tabellarprotokol uber Hauserbesitzer und Zinzen Boskovice - Boskovice record
tables of house owners and interest??

Volkszahlungen - National Censuses

Charlie Roberts ne Aufrichtig (London,England)

Researching AUFRICHTIG Boskovice, Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia, Vienna,
Austria, Europe, Worldwide
WODAK Brumovice, HUSSERL/HAUSLER Boskovice, HUBER Damborice, SCHULER
Brumovice, LOKSCHAN Boskovice

Help requested in Santiago Chile #latinamerica

wadiuwant
 

I am seeking help as to whether a specific distant relative is still
alive, or whether he has descendants.

His partial address is (>from 1991):
Casilla
Santiago de Chile
Chile Nunova.

If anybody in Chile is willing to assist, perhaps because you live
close by to that address, please reply privately to my email address
for more details.

Regards
Richard Dahl
Rehovot, Israel

Latin America #LatinAmerica Help requested in Santiago Chile #latinamerica

wadiuwant
 

I am seeking help as to whether a specific distant relative is still
alive, or whether he has descendants.

His partial address is (>from 1991):
Casilla
Santiago de Chile
Chile Nunova.

If anybody in Chile is willing to assist, perhaps because you live
close by to that address, please reply privately to my email address
for more details.

Regards
Richard Dahl
Rehovot, Israel