Date   

Hungarian spelling on plain text list #hungary

David and BethLong <dnblong@...>
 

Hello Chaim,

Yes, there are words that are the same except for the "accent" marks
(that's what I was trying to say with baj v.s. ba'j, but it didn't turn out
right in plain text).

Personally, I like to use correct Hungarian spelling in both in
correspondence and in my database (which now has about 14,000 Hungarian
names in it); it just doesn't look "right" otherwise.

I learned about Hungarian name spelling the hard way when I had to correct
my Family Tree Maker database at the urging of Laszlo, my Hungarian
research partner. Luckily, at the time, there were "merely" 3000 names.
Still, it was enough to engrave most of them in my mind!

As far as this list, though, if everything has to be in plain text, what's
the use in using correct Hungarian spelling? I guess I'd rather type Laszlo
than La'szlo'; if it's not going to be correct, why go to the trouble
(unless it would be helpful to people on the list to do it that way).

Chaim has an excellent point that the Hungarian phone book will not work
unless names are spelled correctly. Sometimes, people write me saying that
the Hungarian phone book "does not work"; I usually wind up looking up the
names myself because it is faster than trying to explain how to use it! The
Romanian phone book, on the other hand, only works if you remove all the
diacritical marks >from the Hungarian names (but that's a whole other
topic).

Beth Long

-----Original Message-----
From: Chaim Frenkel [SMTP:chaimf@pobox.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 5:21 PM
To: Hungarian SIG
Cc: Hungarian SIG
Subject: Re: About accents and umlauts

Counter argument.

Many searches require proper spelling. Without the accents it just
will not work. (The Matav white pages will not return the correct
results.)

(For the knowlegable Hungarian writers. Are there words that only
differ in accent marks?)

Chaim Frenkel Brooklyn, NY chaimf@pobox.com


Hungary SIG #Hungary Hungarian spelling on plain text list #hungary

David and BethLong <dnblong@...>
 

Hello Chaim,

Yes, there are words that are the same except for the "accent" marks
(that's what I was trying to say with baj v.s. ba'j, but it didn't turn out
right in plain text).

Personally, I like to use correct Hungarian spelling in both in
correspondence and in my database (which now has about 14,000 Hungarian
names in it); it just doesn't look "right" otherwise.

I learned about Hungarian name spelling the hard way when I had to correct
my Family Tree Maker database at the urging of Laszlo, my Hungarian
research partner. Luckily, at the time, there were "merely" 3000 names.
Still, it was enough to engrave most of them in my mind!

As far as this list, though, if everything has to be in plain text, what's
the use in using correct Hungarian spelling? I guess I'd rather type Laszlo
than La'szlo'; if it's not going to be correct, why go to the trouble
(unless it would be helpful to people on the list to do it that way).

Chaim has an excellent point that the Hungarian phone book will not work
unless names are spelled correctly. Sometimes, people write me saying that
the Hungarian phone book "does not work"; I usually wind up looking up the
names myself because it is faster than trying to explain how to use it! The
Romanian phone book, on the other hand, only works if you remove all the
diacritical marks >from the Hungarian names (but that's a whole other
topic).

Beth Long

-----Original Message-----
From: Chaim Frenkel [SMTP:chaimf@pobox.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 5:21 PM
To: Hungarian SIG
Cc: Hungarian SIG
Subject: Re: About accents and umlauts

Counter argument.

Many searches require proper spelling. Without the accents it just
will not work. (The Matav white pages will not return the correct
results.)

(For the knowlegable Hungarian writers. Are there words that only
differ in accent marks?)

Chaim Frenkel Brooklyn, NY chaimf@pobox.com


Re: Subject Lines; Pro's and Con's #general

mleonards@...
 

I have been dismayed by the tenor of this discussion, particularly
since it appears to me to be based upon a misunderstanding.

On 1 Feb 2001, Adelle Weintraub Gloger wrote:

<"When I and others see a surname of someone posting a message or see
that they are searching for a particular name, I and others often make
inquiry. Most of the time the person receiving the message with a
subject of: "Was your family >from __________?" or "_________Family"
will reply even if there is no family connection *after* reading the
message. I, and I'm sure others, find it very disconcerting to find
that the message has been deleted without ever having been read !">

Michael Bernet and Schmuel Metz responded, defending their habit of
deleting without reading all messages to the soc.genealogy.jewish
discussion group that either were of no particular interest to them, or
that had vague subject lines.

Others have suggested that we're all obligated to read all the messages
posted to the discussion group. Here, I'm in the Bernet/Metz camp--I
don't read Hebrew, and therefore don't read messages seeking Hebrew
translations; I ignore requests for information about "Cohens in
Cleveland" since I have no family of that name or in that city.

However, if you reread Ms. Gloger's original posting, I think it's
quite clear that she was referring to messages sent directly to
individuals, rather than posted to the discussion group. Otherwise,
she would not have gotten the "receipts" telling her the messages had
been deleted before being read.

Now, I don't subscribe to "soc.genealogy.jewish", preferring to read
the messages via Deja.com. But >from Mr. Bernet's following comment --

<"As it happens, I opened the message to which I am responding only
because I recognized the sender's name, otherwise I would have deleted
it unread.">

-- I surmise that many (most?) e-mail programs do not distinguish
between Jewishgen discussion group postings and messages sent directly
to the reader. Messrs. Bernet and Metz may argue that one should
always include a precise subject line. While that is undoubtedly good
advice, I think there is an unconscious tendency to be less formal when
one is writing to an individual, than when broadcasting a request to
thousands. And if Messrs. Bernet and Metz were aware that these
inquiries were addressed directly to them, they might be less inclined
to delete even vaguely titled messages.

[But we should all probably reread Ada Greenblatt's posting of 9 Jan
2001. Do not send messages like--"Hey, my Cohens came >from Poland,
too. Think we're related?"]

(This also provides another reason why people may have deleted Ms.
Gloger's messages without reading them. But, if you're posting to a
discussion group, particularly if you list the surnames you're
searching, or if you've submitted names to the JGFF or the FTJP, you
should expect to get private messages.)

Anyway, that's my two cents.
Monica Leonards
Glenside, PA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Subject Lines; Pro's and Con's #general

mleonards@...
 

I have been dismayed by the tenor of this discussion, particularly
since it appears to me to be based upon a misunderstanding.

On 1 Feb 2001, Adelle Weintraub Gloger wrote:

<"When I and others see a surname of someone posting a message or see
that they are searching for a particular name, I and others often make
inquiry. Most of the time the person receiving the message with a
subject of: "Was your family >from __________?" or "_________Family"
will reply even if there is no family connection *after* reading the
message. I, and I'm sure others, find it very disconcerting to find
that the message has been deleted without ever having been read !">

Michael Bernet and Schmuel Metz responded, defending their habit of
deleting without reading all messages to the soc.genealogy.jewish
discussion group that either were of no particular interest to them, or
that had vague subject lines.

Others have suggested that we're all obligated to read all the messages
posted to the discussion group. Here, I'm in the Bernet/Metz camp--I
don't read Hebrew, and therefore don't read messages seeking Hebrew
translations; I ignore requests for information about "Cohens in
Cleveland" since I have no family of that name or in that city.

However, if you reread Ms. Gloger's original posting, I think it's
quite clear that she was referring to messages sent directly to
individuals, rather than posted to the discussion group. Otherwise,
she would not have gotten the "receipts" telling her the messages had
been deleted before being read.

Now, I don't subscribe to "soc.genealogy.jewish", preferring to read
the messages via Deja.com. But >from Mr. Bernet's following comment --

<"As it happens, I opened the message to which I am responding only
because I recognized the sender's name, otherwise I would have deleted
it unread.">

-- I surmise that many (most?) e-mail programs do not distinguish
between Jewishgen discussion group postings and messages sent directly
to the reader. Messrs. Bernet and Metz may argue that one should
always include a precise subject line. While that is undoubtedly good
advice, I think there is an unconscious tendency to be less formal when
one is writing to an individual, than when broadcasting a request to
thousands. And if Messrs. Bernet and Metz were aware that these
inquiries were addressed directly to them, they might be less inclined
to delete even vaguely titled messages.

[But we should all probably reread Ada Greenblatt's posting of 9 Jan
2001. Do not send messages like--"Hey, my Cohens came >from Poland,
too. Think we're related?"]

(This also provides another reason why people may have deleted Ms.
Gloger's messages without reading them. But, if you're posting to a
discussion group, particularly if you list the surnames you're
searching, or if you've submitted names to the JGFF or the FTJP, you
should expect to get private messages.)

Anyway, that's my two cents.
Monica Leonards
Glenside, PA


Pro and Con, and Rudeness #general

joan breslow <webjoan@...>
 

My two cents -
No matter how busy we are, rudeness is not necessary when responding
to an inquiry. I do feel that is the bottom line in this thread.

Words do sting, and alienating people does not foster cooperation,
learning, etc.

Joan in San Marcos


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Pro and Con, and Rudeness #general

joan breslow <webjoan@...>
 

My two cents -
No matter how busy we are, rudeness is not necessary when responding
to an inquiry. I do feel that is the bottom line in this thread.

Words do sting, and alienating people does not foster cooperation,
learning, etc.

Joan in San Marcos


rude replies and deleted unread e-mails #general

dov & varda epstein <yknow@...>
 

In response to both M. Bernet and Nancy, I believe that all of us are
intelligent enough to discern the difference between spam and personal mail
from the subject line. No matter how many e-mails one receives, it is
courteous to respond, whether you think the sender is sending you relevant
material or not. When the e-mail comes >from a novice at genealogy, it is
important to be encouraging, even though this doesn't add to one's personal
gain.
I myself am a novice at genealogy, and had the recent unpleasant
experience of receiving rude replies to my speculation on the meaning of a
name. Though I later found proof for my supposition, and feel vindicated
that what I hypothesized was not as this person claimed," Ignorant, silly,
twaddle," ( among other things ), I now hesitate before responding to
postings ( if you can't take the heat, get out of the water ). Nine out of
every ten e-mails I receive are irrelevant. Nevertheless, I believe it is
proper to respond politely to a well meaning person. If one wishes to be
active within discussion groups, one must observe proper etiquette, no
matter how time consuming this process can be. I once heard a rabbi say that
one can verify if someone is Jewish by whether or not he does Chessed, kind
deeds for which no recompense is expected. It behooves us to act in a
courteous manner.
I am currently homebound, and this discussion group is a major part of
my intellectual life for now. Please don't spoil it for those like myself.
Varda Epstein
yknow@netvision.net.il
Researching:
KOPELMAN, JANOFSKY/YANOVSKI, ( Wasilieshki )
SCHAFFER,SAKUTSKY,( Vilna Guberniya),
EPSTEIN ( Tilsit/Oest Prussia ),
MENDELSOHN, MEYERS, OSTROFSKY, RODAK, ROSENTHAL, MOKSEL( Raczanes )


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen rude replies and deleted unread e-mails #general

dov & varda epstein <yknow@...>
 

In response to both M. Bernet and Nancy, I believe that all of us are
intelligent enough to discern the difference between spam and personal mail
from the subject line. No matter how many e-mails one receives, it is
courteous to respond, whether you think the sender is sending you relevant
material or not. When the e-mail comes >from a novice at genealogy, it is
important to be encouraging, even though this doesn't add to one's personal
gain.
I myself am a novice at genealogy, and had the recent unpleasant
experience of receiving rude replies to my speculation on the meaning of a
name. Though I later found proof for my supposition, and feel vindicated
that what I hypothesized was not as this person claimed," Ignorant, silly,
twaddle," ( among other things ), I now hesitate before responding to
postings ( if you can't take the heat, get out of the water ). Nine out of
every ten e-mails I receive are irrelevant. Nevertheless, I believe it is
proper to respond politely to a well meaning person. If one wishes to be
active within discussion groups, one must observe proper etiquette, no
matter how time consuming this process can be. I once heard a rabbi say that
one can verify if someone is Jewish by whether or not he does Chessed, kind
deeds for which no recompense is expected. It behooves us to act in a
courteous manner.
I am currently homebound, and this discussion group is a major part of
my intellectual life for now. Please don't spoil it for those like myself.
Varda Epstein
yknow@netvision.net.il
Researching:
KOPELMAN, JANOFSKY/YANOVSKI, ( Wasilieshki )
SCHAFFER,SAKUTSKY,( Vilna Guberniya),
EPSTEIN ( Tilsit/Oest Prussia ),
MENDELSOHN, MEYERS, OSTROFSKY, RODAK, ROSENTHAL, MOKSEL( Raczanes )


Re; Stillwater family #belarus

Chuck <chuck@...>
 

Hi all;

When I joined some time back you were all very nice to me and offered
much help with suggestions and such. So I just had a small success
and thought I would let you all know.

I finely made contact with a possible relitive. It is still to be
proven but looks good. We come >from Romania, town of Brceni, in
Bessarabia. And was part of Russia in the 19th century. Also the
family is definitely Jewish. The original name was Stilwaser or
Stillwasser. It was changed to Stillwater when they came to the US
and Canada.

I want to thank you all for your kindness.

Have a nice day
Chuck

Charles H. Pearsall
Corning, CA, USA
e-mail = chuck@rtr.net
Researching: PEARSALL, STILLWATER, COHEN, ELIASSEN


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re; Stillwater family #belarus

Chuck <chuck@...>
 

Hi all;

When I joined some time back you were all very nice to me and offered
much help with suggestions and such. So I just had a small success
and thought I would let you all know.

I finely made contact with a possible relitive. It is still to be
proven but looks good. We come >from Romania, town of Brceni, in
Bessarabia. And was part of Russia in the 19th century. Also the
family is definitely Jewish. The original name was Stilwaser or
Stillwasser. It was changed to Stillwater when they came to the US
and Canada.

I want to thank you all for your kindness.

Have a nice day
Chuck

Charles H. Pearsall
Corning, CA, USA
e-mail = chuck@rtr.net
Researching: PEARSALL, STILLWATER, COHEN, ELIASSEN


Re: New Thread: Portals #belarus

Mark L. Spiegel <wysiwig@...>
 

Jack:

I concur with Ms. Paikin. An excellent idea!

Here is my story. I knew my grandmother had lived in Norfolk, Virginia
(my mother's birthplace) but little else. I asked my grandmother, 90
years old at the time, where and when she had come to America (she is
now 95).
Well, she sometimes cannot remember breakfast but didn't take 3 seconds
before answering, "August 1, 1921, Hamburg-Amerika Line." She had
traveled alone >from Bialystok, Poland to Hamburg, Germany.

She didn't remember the name of the ship and there was no listing for
Norfolk arrivals at my local FHM. Had she come through Baltimore?
No, she was certain, Hamburg to Norfolk with no stops. So what to do?

I checked Morton's Directory of ship arrivals for NYC. Only two on
August 2, 1921 for the Hamburg line. Checking the microfilm for the
Hamburg-Amerika Line manifests I found one for one of the ships, the
Mount Carroll. And there, listed as passenger #69, was my grandmother,
Sora Uddis Pejlatowicz, aged 15. She had indeed landed in Norfolk on
August 1 and the ship had continued on to NYC for the return trip to
Germany. The trip lasted 3 weeks.

By the way, my mother's father arrived with his parents and siblings
in Baltimore on December 22, 1912 aboard the S.S. Barbarossa, North
German Lloyd Line.

I know I backed into this, but there are certainly arrival records for
Norfolk somewhere.

Mark Spiegel
wysiwig@earthlink.net

------------------
"Jack R. Braverman" wrote:

However....

I wonder if a new thread may not be as valuable to us all. It's
been said endlessly that the Port of Hamburg, along with the
Hamburg-Amerika Line, dominated the emigration trade during the
great tide (1885-1914). Most of the boats dumped the tired and
wretched of Europe's shores in NYC.
...snip....
------------------


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: New Thread: Portals #belarus

Mark L. Spiegel <wysiwig@...>
 

Jack:

I concur with Ms. Paikin. An excellent idea!

Here is my story. I knew my grandmother had lived in Norfolk, Virginia
(my mother's birthplace) but little else. I asked my grandmother, 90
years old at the time, where and when she had come to America (she is
now 95).
Well, she sometimes cannot remember breakfast but didn't take 3 seconds
before answering, "August 1, 1921, Hamburg-Amerika Line." She had
traveled alone >from Bialystok, Poland to Hamburg, Germany.

She didn't remember the name of the ship and there was no listing for
Norfolk arrivals at my local FHM. Had she come through Baltimore?
No, she was certain, Hamburg to Norfolk with no stops. So what to do?

I checked Morton's Directory of ship arrivals for NYC. Only two on
August 2, 1921 for the Hamburg line. Checking the microfilm for the
Hamburg-Amerika Line manifests I found one for one of the ships, the
Mount Carroll. And there, listed as passenger #69, was my grandmother,
Sora Uddis Pejlatowicz, aged 15. She had indeed landed in Norfolk on
August 1 and the ship had continued on to NYC for the return trip to
Germany. The trip lasted 3 weeks.

By the way, my mother's father arrived with his parents and siblings
in Baltimore on December 22, 1912 aboard the S.S. Barbarossa, North
German Lloyd Line.

I know I backed into this, but there are certainly arrival records for
Norfolk somewhere.

Mark Spiegel
wysiwig@earthlink.net

------------------
"Jack R. Braverman" wrote:

However....

I wonder if a new thread may not be as valuable to us all. It's
been said endlessly that the Port of Hamburg, along with the
Hamburg-Amerika Line, dominated the emigration trade during the
great tide (1885-1914). Most of the boats dumped the tired and
wretched of Europe's shores in NYC.
...snip....
------------------


re ship route #belarus

Betsy Brazy <bbrazy@...>
 

The brothers in my DRAIKIN family (>from Ukraine) took a circuitous
route about 1916, traveling east along the Trans-Siberian Railroad (and
its Chinese equivalent) eventually to Harbin, China, then to Korea and
to Japan (Japan and Russia were at war, and China was a Russian ally,
so they had to pass through Korea to get to a Japanese port). From
Yokohama, Japan, they sailed to Seattle, Washington (USA). I assume
that it was on the <fontfamily><param>Times</param>NYK </fontfamily>Aki
Maru but have to check the National Archives in Seattle to confirm.



Betsy BRAZY


Belarus SIG #Belarus re ship route #belarus

Betsy Brazy <bbrazy@...>
 

The brothers in my DRAIKIN family (>from Ukraine) took a circuitous
route about 1916, traveling east along the Trans-Siberian Railroad (and
its Chinese equivalent) eventually to Harbin, China, then to Korea and
to Japan (Japan and Russia were at war, and China was a Russian ally,
so they had to pass through Korea to get to a Japanese port). From
Yokohama, Japan, they sailed to Seattle, Washington (USA). I assume
that it was on the <fontfamily><param>Times</param>NYK </fontfamily>Aki
Maru but have to check the National Archives in Seattle to confirm.



Betsy BRAZY


Volunteer Russian Readers Needed at USHMM #belarus

David M. Fox <fox@...>
 

Are there any members of the SIG (or people you know) who can read
printed Russian and are willing to volunteer one day a week at the
United States Holocaust Museum research department? Obviously,
volunteers will have to live in the greater Washington DC area.
Volunteers will not have to speak or write Russian. If you can
volunteer or want more details, please contact Peter Lande <plande@ushmm.org>.

At this time there are no Russian readers to fullfill requests for
copies of pages >from microfilms of the Extraordinary State Commission to
Investigate German-Fascist Crimes Committed on Soviet Territory. These
films include the accounts of what happen to residents of a large number
of shtetls in Belarus and Ukraine where Jews once lived. In addition to
the acounts, the films have lists of residents.
--
David M. Fox
mailto:fox@erols.com
Arnold, MD USA
Belarus SIG Coordinator
<http://www.jewishgen.org/belarus>


Belarus SIG #Belarus Volunteer Russian Readers Needed at USHMM #belarus

David M. Fox <fox@...>
 

Are there any members of the SIG (or people you know) who can read
printed Russian and are willing to volunteer one day a week at the
United States Holocaust Museum research department? Obviously,
volunteers will have to live in the greater Washington DC area.
Volunteers will not have to speak or write Russian. If you can
volunteer or want more details, please contact Peter Lande <plande@ushmm.org>.

At this time there are no Russian readers to fullfill requests for
copies of pages >from microfilms of the Extraordinary State Commission to
Investigate German-Fascist Crimes Committed on Soviet Territory. These
films include the accounts of what happen to residents of a large number
of shtetls in Belarus and Ukraine where Jews once lived. In addition to
the acounts, the films have lists of residents.
--
David M. Fox
mailto:fox@erols.com
Arnold, MD USA
Belarus SIG Coordinator
<http://www.jewishgen.org/belarus>


Re: New Thread: Portals #belarus

Len Farber <lhfarber@...>
 

"Jack R. Braverman" wrote:

However....

I wonder if a new thread may not be as valuable to us all. It's
been said endlessly that the Port of Hamburg, along with the
Hamburg-Amerika Line, dominated the emigration trade during the
great tide (1885-1914). Most of the boats dumped the tired and
wretched of Europe's shores in NYC.
I will add one Port based only upon Declarations of Intent
1906 - Antwerp to NYC - gf >from Kovno, Lithuania -- Red Star Line
1910 - Antwerp to NYC - gf >from Bobruisk, Belarus

I suspect that the trip to Antwerp was over land.

Len Farber
lhfarber@mediaone.net
Oak Park, Illinois


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: New Thread: Portals #belarus

Len Farber <lhfarber@...>
 

"Jack R. Braverman" wrote:

However....

I wonder if a new thread may not be as valuable to us all. It's
been said endlessly that the Port of Hamburg, along with the
Hamburg-Amerika Line, dominated the emigration trade during the
great tide (1885-1914). Most of the boats dumped the tired and
wretched of Europe's shores in NYC.
I will add one Port based only upon Declarations of Intent
1906 - Antwerp to NYC - gf >from Kovno, Lithuania -- Red Star Line
1910 - Antwerp to NYC - gf >from Bobruisk, Belarus

I suspect that the trip to Antwerp was over land.

Len Farber
lhfarber@mediaone.net
Oak Park, Illinois


NEW GENEALOGICAL BOOKS! #belarus

Sandyhshor@...
 

The JewishGen Mall <jewishgen.org/jewishgenmall> is looking for new books of
genealogical interest to add to their current selection.

If any of you are aware of any newly published titles we would like to hear
from you.
We would also appreciate your recommendations. Just make sure the book is
not already listed on our Mall as we currently have well over 400 titles
(with new additions weekly) plus videos and software.


Please remember that we need an email address for the publisher in every case.

Thanks for your help.

Sandy and Don Hirschhorn
Co-Managers JewishGen Mall
Boca Raton, Florida
Email: sandyhshor@aol.com
Fax: 561-883-3253


Belarus SIG #Belarus NEW GENEALOGICAL BOOKS! #belarus

Sandyhshor@...
 

The JewishGen Mall <jewishgen.org/jewishgenmall> is looking for new books of
genealogical interest to add to their current selection.

If any of you are aware of any newly published titles we would like to hear
from you.
We would also appreciate your recommendations. Just make sure the book is
not already listed on our Mall as we currently have well over 400 titles
(with new additions weekly) plus videos and software.


Please remember that we need an email address for the publisher in every case.

Thanks for your help.

Sandy and Don Hirschhorn
Co-Managers JewishGen Mall
Boca Raton, Florida
Email: sandyhshor@aol.com
Fax: 561-883-3253