Date   

Re: Barnato family questions #general

Paul Silverstone
 

Barney BARNATO's original name was Barnet ISAACS. He arrived in South Africa in
1873 >from England where he joined his older brother Henry. He had a sister Kate
(Isaacs) Barnato who married Joel JOEL. They had three sons, Woolf Joel, Lt. Col.
Solomon (Solly) Barnato Joel, a financier, and Jack Barnato Joel. He met his wife
in 1874 but their 3 children were born nearly 20 years later: Leah Primrose,
Isaac Henry (Jack), Woolf. The book "Jews of Britain" by Paul Emden, does not give
any details about his wife.
His son Jack was a flyer in WWI, later killed.

Paul Silverstone

bxzi@... wrote:

3 quick questions:

1) Was Jack Barnato the son or the nephew of Barney Barnato?

2) Was his widow (Dorothy or Dorothee) of Jewish ancestry?

3) Did they have any children?
--
Paul Silverstone
New York
Please reply to:
paulh@...


Re: The Reverend vs. Rabbi #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"Evertjan." <exjxw.hannivoort@...> wrote:
snip

"Rev", >from Rebbe, is not a corruption of Rav., why should it?

I don't deny that many people genuinely thought and think that "rev" is >from
"reverend", but that does not mean it is the correct origin of the abbreviation.

Folk etymology can have a long history.
See http://www.jewish-history.com/Occident/volume1/mar1844/isaacs.html in which
there is a tribute to the Rev David M Isaacs of Liverpool Hebrew Congregation. At
the end of the page it describes him as the Reverend D M Isaacs.

Shall we leave it that in the Jewish context it is short for Reverend. Although I
didn't think that there was any different in the non-Jewish context.

Incidentally I now might have found the last word on the subject by Rabbi Ephraim
Mirvis of Finchley Syngagogue in London.

In http://www.hgss.org.uk/home/5763/Tzav.htm Rabbi Mirvis, who I used to know
slightly, says that "Reverend" is a most acceptable term for spiritual leader who
is not an "ordained Rabbi".

He writes that this word means "worthy of deep respect or reverence". It is used
within Jewish circles as a title for spiritual leaders who are not ordained
Rabbis.

He says that the original usage of the term is in the King James Version's
translation of Psalm 111:9 Kadosh Venora Shemo - Holy and Reverend is His Name. He
adds that this translation was adopted in many Jewish editions of the Bible.

My own gloss on the Rev/Rav usage is that there is a custom to use the term Rav
for marking with respect a very learned or pious person. This does not mean that
someone has got semicha but it is a mark of respect to normally an elderly member
of the community. So, in that sense, Rav and Rev/Reverend have exactly the same
meaning - but not origin.

Nick Landau
London, UK
--
COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Barnato family questions #general

Paul Silverstone
 

Barney BARNATO's original name was Barnet ISAACS. He arrived in South Africa in
1873 >from England where he joined his older brother Henry. He had a sister Kate
(Isaacs) Barnato who married Joel JOEL. They had three sons, Woolf Joel, Lt. Col.
Solomon (Solly) Barnato Joel, a financier, and Jack Barnato Joel. He met his wife
in 1874 but their 3 children were born nearly 20 years later: Leah Primrose,
Isaac Henry (Jack), Woolf. The book "Jews of Britain" by Paul Emden, does not give
any details about his wife.
His son Jack was a flyer in WWI, later killed.

Paul Silverstone

bxzi@... wrote:

3 quick questions:

1) Was Jack Barnato the son or the nephew of Barney Barnato?

2) Was his widow (Dorothy or Dorothee) of Jewish ancestry?

3) Did they have any children?
--
Paul Silverstone
New York
Please reply to:
paulh@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: The Reverend vs. Rabbi #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"Evertjan." <exjxw.hannivoort@...> wrote:
snip

"Rev", >from Rebbe, is not a corruption of Rav., why should it?

I don't deny that many people genuinely thought and think that "rev" is >from
"reverend", but that does not mean it is the correct origin of the abbreviation.

Folk etymology can have a long history.
See http://www.jewish-history.com/Occident/volume1/mar1844/isaacs.html in which
there is a tribute to the Rev David M Isaacs of Liverpool Hebrew Congregation. At
the end of the page it describes him as the Reverend D M Isaacs.

Shall we leave it that in the Jewish context it is short for Reverend. Although I
didn't think that there was any different in the non-Jewish context.

Incidentally I now might have found the last word on the subject by Rabbi Ephraim
Mirvis of Finchley Syngagogue in London.

In http://www.hgss.org.uk/home/5763/Tzav.htm Rabbi Mirvis, who I used to know
slightly, says that "Reverend" is a most acceptable term for spiritual leader who
is not an "ordained Rabbi".

He writes that this word means "worthy of deep respect or reverence". It is used
within Jewish circles as a title for spiritual leaders who are not ordained
Rabbis.

He says that the original usage of the term is in the King James Version's
translation of Psalm 111:9 Kadosh Venora Shemo - Holy and Reverend is His Name. He
adds that this translation was adopted in many Jewish editions of the Bible.

My own gloss on the Rev/Rav usage is that there is a custom to use the term Rav
for marking with respect a very learned or pious person. This does not mean that
someone has got semicha but it is a mark of respect to normally an elderly member
of the community. So, in that sense, Rav and Rev/Reverend have exactly the same
meaning - but not origin.

Nick Landau
London, UK
--
COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


Children's graves #general

Israel P
 

The Jewish cemeteries in Israel have special sections for children who died
young.
That is simply in order to make the most efficient use of space.

Israel Pickholtz


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Children's graves #general

Israel P
 

The Jewish cemeteries in Israel have special sections for children who died
young.
That is simply in order to make the most efficient use of space.

Israel Pickholtz


The 1897 Census #belarus

Alan Tapper <sabaalan@...>
 

Does anyone know how complete the Census is at this web site?

http://catalog.crl.edu/search/o?SEARCH=2488870

Alan Tapper
Fairfax, VA

Researching:

Researching:
MENDELOVICH, MENDELEWICZ, MENDELOWITZ >from Slonim and Byten
MENDOZA >from Kobryn
GORMAN >from Baranovichi
HOCHBERG and KATZ >from Iasi
TAPPER >from Snitkov
BURDMAN and FAHRER >from Tulchin; NEMIROVSKY >from Lipovets


The 1897 Census #romania

Alan Tapper <sabaalan@...>
 

Does anyone know how complete the Census is at this web site?

http://catalog.crl.edu/search/o?SEARCH=2488870

Alan Tapper
Fairfax, VA

Researching:

Researching:
MENDELOVICH, MENDELEWICZ, MENDELOWITZ >from Slonim and Byten
MENDOZA >from Kobryn
GORMAN >from Baranovichi
HOCHBERG and KATZ >from Iasi
TAPPER >from Snitkov
BURDMAN and FAHRER >from Tulchin
NEMIROVSKY >from Lipovets


Belarus SIG #Belarus The 1897 Census #belarus

Alan Tapper <sabaalan@...>
 

Does anyone know how complete the Census is at this web site?

http://catalog.crl.edu/search/o?SEARCH=2488870

Alan Tapper
Fairfax, VA

Researching:

Researching:
MENDELOVICH, MENDELEWICZ, MENDELOWITZ >from Slonim and Byten
MENDOZA >from Kobryn
GORMAN >from Baranovichi
HOCHBERG and KATZ >from Iasi
TAPPER >from Snitkov
BURDMAN and FAHRER >from Tulchin; NEMIROVSKY >from Lipovets


Romania SIG #Romania The 1897 Census #romania

Alan Tapper <sabaalan@...>
 

Does anyone know how complete the Census is at this web site?

http://catalog.crl.edu/search/o?SEARCH=2488870

Alan Tapper
Fairfax, VA

Researching:

Researching:
MENDELOVICH, MENDELEWICZ, MENDELOWITZ >from Slonim and Byten
MENDOZA >from Kobryn
GORMAN >from Baranovichi
HOCHBERG and KATZ >from Iasi
TAPPER >from Snitkov
BURDMAN and FAHRER >from Tulchin
NEMIROVSKY >from Lipovets


Translation help needed: English -> English (really) #belarus

Dan Breslau <sinespam@...>
 

Hello >from a new(ish) member!

I recently found what I'm pretty sure is the Ellis Island immigration
record for my great-grandfather, Isidore Breslau. The problem is, I
can't read the rather, shall I say, idiosyncratic handwriting on the form.

I can determine some of the letters by comparing against other words on
the form, where >from context it's clearer what the entire word has to
be. For instance, for his occupation, though it looks to my eyes like
"sailor", it probably is meant to read "tailor". It also seems that the
first letter of his name is an "I", where the transcriber at
ellisisland.org thought it was an "F".

But three important fields are still inscrutable to my eyes. I'd really
like to know what it says under "Last Residence", and who the brother is
that he's joining. (I have a few guesses on both, but I'm not at all
certain.) I'm also wondering just what his first name is listed as.

It probably doesn't help that the writer seems to have been sloppy with
spelling, judging >from the letters that I think I can read.

If anyone could have a look at the row 8 on the manifest and let me know
what they see, I'd appreciate it. It can be found here:

http://www.ellisisland.org/search/shipmanifest.asp?MID=04818330730232078240&LNM=BRES&PLNM=BRES&bSYR=1872&bEYR=1892&last_kind=1&town_kind=0&ship_kind=0&RF=473&ETHS=23&ETHS=28&ETHS=31&ETHS=40&pID=604821050126

Thanks!

Dan Breslau
Boston (area), MA
--
Searching:

BRESLAU/BRESLOVSKI, COHEN (Russia),
SCHRIEBER, GRAD/GROSS, ROSENBAUM, DEUTSCH, GLUCK, NEUVOHNER (Hungary),
LANDAU, GOTTLIEB (Austria)


Belarus SIG #Belarus Translation help needed: English -> English (really) #belarus

Dan Breslau <sinespam@...>
 

Hello >from a new(ish) member!

I recently found what I'm pretty sure is the Ellis Island immigration
record for my great-grandfather, Isidore Breslau. The problem is, I
can't read the rather, shall I say, idiosyncratic handwriting on the form.

I can determine some of the letters by comparing against other words on
the form, where >from context it's clearer what the entire word has to
be. For instance, for his occupation, though it looks to my eyes like
"sailor", it probably is meant to read "tailor". It also seems that the
first letter of his name is an "I", where the transcriber at
ellisisland.org thought it was an "F".

But three important fields are still inscrutable to my eyes. I'd really
like to know what it says under "Last Residence", and who the brother is
that he's joining. (I have a few guesses on both, but I'm not at all
certain.) I'm also wondering just what his first name is listed as.

It probably doesn't help that the writer seems to have been sloppy with
spelling, judging >from the letters that I think I can read.

If anyone could have a look at the row 8 on the manifest and let me know
what they see, I'd appreciate it. It can be found here:

http://www.ellisisland.org/search/shipmanifest.asp?MID=04818330730232078240&LNM=BRES&PLNM=BRES&bSYR=1872&bEYR=1892&last_kind=1&town_kind=0&ship_kind=0&RF=473&ETHS=23&ETHS=28&ETHS=31&ETHS=40&pID=604821050126

Thanks!

Dan Breslau
Boston (area), MA
--
Searching:

BRESLAU/BRESLOVSKI, COHEN (Russia),
SCHRIEBER, GRAD/GROSS, ROSENBAUM, DEUTSCH, GLUCK, NEUVOHNER (Hungary),
LANDAU, GOTTLIEB (Austria)


report on Turov #belarus

JHRG of Belarus <belshtetl@...>
 

Dear All,

Yesterday our Group returned >from the trip to Turov.
We have the following information-
The Jewish cemetery to be behind the town in the
direction of the village Hilchitsy on the distance of
2,5 kms >from Turov. The cemetery consists of a group
of monuments - the first group - about 12 monuments
are in the middle of the cemetery -on the hill.
Monuments belong to the period of the middle of 19
century. 43 monuments of the beginning of 20 century,
including a tomb of the chief rabbi of Turov are kept
in the lowland. Closer to the fence there are 35
monuments of post-war burial places. In the corner of
the cemetery there is a monument of the Holocaust. It
is in a very bad state. There are two inscriptions in
Yiddish and Russian on the monument. The size of the
cemetery is 100 meters x 80 meters. None of 3
buildings of synagogues which were in Turov before the
war was kept. All of them were burnt during the war.
The building of the Jewish school was also not kept.
It was destroyed after the war. Lots of former Jewish
houses were kept - they are concentrated in the street
of Uritsky, Komsomolskaya and Pinskaya. Many Jewish
houses are populated with gipsies. 3 Jews live in
Turov so far - Aron Fleitman, Michael Lelchuk and
Rimma Peshevich.

Yuri Dorn
Coordinator of Jewish Heritage Research Group in
Belarus


__________________________________________________
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Belarus SIG #Belarus report on Turov #belarus

JHRG of Belarus <belshtetl@...>
 

Dear All,

Yesterday our Group returned >from the trip to Turov.
We have the following information-
The Jewish cemetery to be behind the town in the
direction of the village Hilchitsy on the distance of
2,5 kms >from Turov. The cemetery consists of a group
of monuments - the first group - about 12 monuments
are in the middle of the cemetery -on the hill.
Monuments belong to the period of the middle of 19
century. 43 monuments of the beginning of 20 century,
including a tomb of the chief rabbi of Turov are kept
in the lowland. Closer to the fence there are 35
monuments of post-war burial places. In the corner of
the cemetery there is a monument of the Holocaust. It
is in a very bad state. There are two inscriptions in
Yiddish and Russian on the monument. The size of the
cemetery is 100 meters x 80 meters. None of 3
buildings of synagogues which were in Turov before the
war was kept. All of them were burnt during the war.
The building of the Jewish school was also not kept.
It was destroyed after the war. Lots of former Jewish
houses were kept - they are concentrated in the street
of Uritsky, Komsomolskaya and Pinskaya. Many Jewish
houses are populated with gipsies. 3 Jews live in
Turov so far - Aron Fleitman, Michael Lelchuk and
Rimma Peshevich.

Yuri Dorn
Coordinator of Jewish Heritage Research Group in
Belarus


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


more early 19th century Isaacs families #usa

Cnydorf@...
 

Dear Early American Siggers
I am continuing to search through the censuses for my great great
great grandfather whom I conjecture was named 'Jonah ISAACS'. I have found one
early 19th century Jonah ISAACS who is listed in the 1850 census as living in
Mt. Morris, Livingston Co., NY.
This started me looking for more ISAACS people in that neighborhood
and I found a slightly older person, a John ISAACS living in nearby Seneca
Falls, NY and reported in the censuses of 1820 and 1830.
The scarcity of Jonah's in the old censuses made me think that maybe
a Litvak named 'Yeyne' as my ggg grandfather apparently was (his daughter's
patronymic is Jonawa) could have anglicized his name to 'John'. So I broadened
my search to look for 'John ISAACS' in the censuses.
I found several but one is particularly good candidate to be my
ggg grandfather. In the 1850 census there is a 'Jno ISAACS' aged 48 living in
Sacramento, California. Unlike the Finger Lakes ISAACs whose birthplaces are
given as England, he is listed as being born in Poland! Furthermore he is living
with a Moses ISAACS,32, and a Harris ISAACS, 27.
Now my gg grandmother, the daughter of the man I am searching for,
had three sons, two of which were named Morris (for Meyshe) ISAACS and Harris
ISAACS. It strikes me that they could have been named for their Sacramento
great-uncles.
Perhaps, I should confess that I have another, less rational basis
for thinking that Jno ISAACS of Sacromento may be my ancestor. My grandfather
was a hardworking tailor who seldom ventured far >from New York. Yet during WW
I he made a rare trip to the West Coast. He made a point of stopping in
Sacramento and later advocated that the family business be moved there. No one else
was convinced and we stayed in Brooklyn but maybe he was fascinated my family
memories of Gold Rush days in Old California. Regards,

Charles Nydorf NYC


Early American SIG #USA more early 19th century Isaacs families #usa

Cnydorf@...
 

Dear Early American Siggers
I am continuing to search through the censuses for my great great
great grandfather whom I conjecture was named 'Jonah ISAACS'. I have found one
early 19th century Jonah ISAACS who is listed in the 1850 census as living in
Mt. Morris, Livingston Co., NY.
This started me looking for more ISAACS people in that neighborhood
and I found a slightly older person, a John ISAACS living in nearby Seneca
Falls, NY and reported in the censuses of 1820 and 1830.
The scarcity of Jonah's in the old censuses made me think that maybe
a Litvak named 'Yeyne' as my ggg grandfather apparently was (his daughter's
patronymic is Jonawa) could have anglicized his name to 'John'. So I broadened
my search to look for 'John ISAACS' in the censuses.
I found several but one is particularly good candidate to be my
ggg grandfather. In the 1850 census there is a 'Jno ISAACS' aged 48 living in
Sacramento, California. Unlike the Finger Lakes ISAACs whose birthplaces are
given as England, he is listed as being born in Poland! Furthermore he is living
with a Moses ISAACS,32, and a Harris ISAACS, 27.
Now my gg grandmother, the daughter of the man I am searching for,
had three sons, two of which were named Morris (for Meyshe) ISAACS and Harris
ISAACS. It strikes me that they could have been named for their Sacramento
great-uncles.
Perhaps, I should confess that I have another, less rational basis
for thinking that Jno ISAACS of Sacromento may be my ancestor. My grandfather
was a hardworking tailor who seldom ventured far >from New York. Yet during WW
I he made a rare trip to the West Coast. He made a point of stopping in
Sacramento and later advocated that the family business be moved there. No one else
was convinced and we stayed in Brooklyn but maybe he was fascinated my family
memories of Gold Rush days in Old California. Regards,

Charles Nydorf NYC


Walldorf Sachisen Mennigen #germany

Rabbi Ben-Zion Saydman <ravbenzi@...>
 

Shalom:

I am helping a friend who has recently discovered his German roots. They
all seem to have settled in New Orleans and then San Antonio in the early to
mid nineteenth century. Surnames are: VEITH, COHEN, BAUM, FRANCK, and
OPPENHEIMER. According to an old family record, the COHEN family comes >from
Walldorf Sachisen Meinnigen, Germany. I tried to find such a location, but
did not succeed. If anyone has connections to these surnames and places, or
if anyone can figure out the location of Walldorf Sachisen Meinnigen,
Germany, please contact me. Thanks.

Rabbi Ben-Zion Saydman

MODERATOR NOTES: Please ask your friend to subscribe to GerSIG. We will not
accept any further messages >from you about his research.


German SIG #Germany Walldorf Sachisen Mennigen #germany

Rabbi Ben-Zion Saydman <ravbenzi@...>
 

Shalom:

I am helping a friend who has recently discovered his German roots. They
all seem to have settled in New Orleans and then San Antonio in the early to
mid nineteenth century. Surnames are: VEITH, COHEN, BAUM, FRANCK, and
OPPENHEIMER. According to an old family record, the COHEN family comes >from
Walldorf Sachisen Meinnigen, Germany. I tried to find such a location, but
did not succeed. If anyone has connections to these surnames and places, or
if anyone can figure out the location of Walldorf Sachisen Meinnigen,
Germany, please contact me. Thanks.

Rabbi Ben-Zion Saydman

MODERATOR NOTES: Please ask your friend to subscribe to GerSIG. We will not
accept any further messages >from you about his research.


Re: TRANSLATION VM 6345 #yizkorbooks

rauch aida <rauchaida@...>
 

Dear Ms Miller,

I am sorry but I cannot agree with your translation
of
certain passages of the Yiddish text.

A)"a shvere sedre" does not mean in this context "a
difficult weekly Thora portion" although that is
indeed the literal meaning. Here it is used rather
humorously to say "a difficult matter" meaning, of
course, that the new immigrants to South America
were
having a hard and difficult time getting used to the
place.

B) "m'pashet dem khoymer" does not mean at all "the
fool tending cattle". "khoymer" is a Hebraism and
means "material things" and not "a fool" as you say.
So the passage means "we are tending to our material
needs".
Then the writer goes on to say "un m'fargrobyanevet
dos pitsl nefesh" which does not mean "to bury the
little soul" as you say, but means "to neglect our
spirit so that it becomes boorish and ignorant".
Therefore I'd suggest to replace your sentence "the
fool tending cattle, burying the little soul" by
something like "we are tending here to our material
needs and completely neglecting our spiritual ones".

C) "di alte boymldike shiraim fun amol" does not at
all mean "the old trees, remnants >from before" as
you
say. "Boymldike shiraim" refers to the shiraim it
was
an honour to consume after the Rebbe. Here it is
used
as a metaphor for the spiritual values that the
writer
finds are being neglected in S.A. Therefore I'd
suggest to replace your sentence "happy are those
who
are not burdened by the old trees, remnants from
before, etc" by something like "happy are those who
are not burdened by the spiritual values of the
past...the old, aristocratic past is a burden to our
present". I am sorry if this is rather repetitive
but
so is the original.

All the best,
Aida Rauch
Belgium




___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com


Yizkor Books #YizkorBooks Re: TRANSLATION VM 6345 #yizkorbooks

rauch aida <rauchaida@...>
 

Dear Ms Miller,

I am sorry but I cannot agree with your translation
of
certain passages of the Yiddish text.

A)"a shvere sedre" does not mean in this context "a
difficult weekly Thora portion" although that is
indeed the literal meaning. Here it is used rather
humorously to say "a difficult matter" meaning, of
course, that the new immigrants to South America
were
having a hard and difficult time getting used to the
place.

B) "m'pashet dem khoymer" does not mean at all "the
fool tending cattle". "khoymer" is a Hebraism and
means "material things" and not "a fool" as you say.
So the passage means "we are tending to our material
needs".
Then the writer goes on to say "un m'fargrobyanevet
dos pitsl nefesh" which does not mean "to bury the
little soul" as you say, but means "to neglect our
spirit so that it becomes boorish and ignorant".
Therefore I'd suggest to replace your sentence "the
fool tending cattle, burying the little soul" by
something like "we are tending here to our material
needs and completely neglecting our spiritual ones".

C) "di alte boymldike shiraim fun amol" does not at
all mean "the old trees, remnants >from before" as
you
say. "Boymldike shiraim" refers to the shiraim it
was
an honour to consume after the Rebbe. Here it is
used
as a metaphor for the spiritual values that the
writer
finds are being neglected in S.A. Therefore I'd
suggest to replace your sentence "happy are those
who
are not burdened by the old trees, remnants from
before, etc" by something like "happy are those who
are not burdened by the spiritual values of the
past...the old, aristocratic past is a burden to our
present". I am sorry if this is rather repetitive
but
so is the original.

All the best,
Aida Rauch
Belgium




___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com