Date   

"Jewish Families in Galicia" - Conversions KAMMERMAN #general

Mark Jacobson
 

Hi

I was very interested in Pamela Weisberger's message
about a list of Jews >from Galicia who converted to
Christianity, especially after her message mentioned a
KAMMERMAN family >from Drohobycz, a family and town
very important to me and my research - my KAMERMAN
grandfather's surname and place of birth. I was not
entirely familiar with these particular KAMMERMANs but
checked my printout >from JRI Poland of the index of
Drohobycz records. I was able to find many of these
people in the indexed records. Now seeing the original
pdf file >from Pamela I have been able to do
comparisons and will report my findings. It raises
questions - most importantly why all these people are
on this list, since they were all living (and dying)
as Jews up to at least 1901 and are listed in Jewish
records for Drohobycz, and Manfred Daum's listing of
them has no reference to any Christian records as a
source for conversion information, only the names
Philipp and Mathilde Daum. The father of this
KAMMERMANN family, Moses KAMMERMANN's death is even
listed in the JRI Index, so it is highly unlikely he
ever converted. Here is a comparison of information
from Manfred Daum and information >from JRI Poland and
my conclusions. Mr. Daum lists events that happen to
this family up to 1914 and births before 1877 and
JRI-Poland only has births beginning in 1877 and goes
up to 1901, but there is still much information for
comparison.

“Judische Familien In Galizien” (Jewish Families in
Galicia), >from Manfred Daum contains information on
the family of Moses and Kidel KAMMERMANN from
Ugartsberg, Drohobycz district. It lists:
Moses, died 1896, his wife
Kidel, who it says died in 1914 and was buried in
1896? That must be a typo.
their daughters:
1. unknown female b. 1871
2. Chaje, 1875-1914, married to Rachmil FLACHS with
children:
a. Abraham b. 1890
b. Laja b. 1894
c. Schaindl b. 1897
d. Wilhelmine b. 1898

3. Amalie, 1878-1910 married to Isaak SOBEL with
children:
a. Abraham b. 1900
b. Aaron b. 1902
c. Josef b. 1905
d. Israel b. 1906
e. Henriette b. 1908
It also lists a second marriage for Isaak SOBEL to
Rahel HAFER.
4. Regina, b. 1880, married to Leiser GOLDSTEIN
5. Rebecka, b. 1882, married to Majer POLLAK

It curiously lists all these people as Jews, even the
children of Amalie and Chaje, and Isaak SOBEL's second
wife and the children with her, and I can find no
reference to anyone in this family converting to
Christianity in Manfred Daum's information.

JRI-Poland Drohobycz AGAD records, births 1877-1901,
deaths 1852-1901 (also two listings in Komarno AGAD
death records) has many records for this family.

Records for the family of Moses KAMERMAN/KAMMERMANN,
all events listed as taking place in Ugartsberg.

Moses KAMERMANN son of Leib Wolf and Ruchel Laja, died
in 1899 at age 68. There is no evidence here that
Moses converted, and if his death is listed here he
must have been buried in the Jewish cemetery.

Moses KAMERMAN and Gittel SCHEININGER had three
children born in the timeframe of the index (plus one
more >from death records):
Leib 1877-1879 (listed in Komarno town deaths)
Malke b. 1879
Henie b. 1882 (1895 death listed in Komarno town
deaths)
Rebeka b. 1885

Only daughters Chaje and Malke were married and had
children in the timeframe of the index, but they
basically match the names and information in Daum's
report, and all are Jews, listed in the Jewish records
of Drohobycz.

Rachmiel FLAKS and Chaje KAMERMAN in Ugartsberg, had
children listed:
Abraham Seinwel b. 1892
Lajcia b. 1894
Jozef b. 1896
Scheindel Rifke b. 1897
Moses b. 1899, died 1900
Sara Mina (not Wilhelmine as per Mr. Daum, although
that might be a clue to a later conversion?) b. 1901

Izak SOBEL and Malke KAMERMAN in Ugartsberg, had 1
child listed:
Abraham Samuel b. 1900

At this point in my research I have not made a
connection between my KAMERMAN family and this
particular KAMERMAN family, but I do not doubt there
is some connection - the families lived nearby and
shared a surname which primarily exists only around
Drohobycz/Boryslaw, nearby Sambor, and Przemysl. This
project has peaked my interest in this family. I have
traced my KAMERMAN line in Drohobycz back to my
grandfather's g-g-grandfather, Ichel KAMERMAN, who
lived sometime in the late 1700's to early 1800's,
having two known children around 1800.

As you see, vital events for this family of Moses
KAMERMAN occur in Jewish records up to the end of the
index in 1901, KAMERMANs born and dying as Jews in the
town of Ugartsberg, Drohobycz, Galicia, following
traditional naming patterns, and at least up to 1901
showing no evidence of conversion. I hope Mr. Daum can
explain these people being on his list as converts. I
suspect Mr. Daum is related to this family through a
branch that converted at some point, but that point is
definitely after 1901, definitely after the death of
the patriarch Moses and two documented marriages,
probably after all 4 listed marriages based on the
names supplied by Mr. Daum, so I question why these
people are all listed in this document. If anyone has
any insight into the particulars of this family please
let me know. Even without a direct connection to this
family, I feel a need to show that at least most of
this family were not converts, they were a Jewish
family and probably lived and died as Jews in Galicia,
the same as many of our families did. The presence of
so many KAMMERMANs on this list of converts gives the
mistaken impression that they were a significant part
of converted Jews in Galicia, but I have found through
JRI indexed Jewish records and close examination of
Mr. Daum's document that all KAMERMANs listed in this
document connect to the same family of Moses and
Gittel in Ugartsberg and many, if not all, the people
listed did not convert to Christianity, remaining
Jews. I hope Mr. Daum's document does not spread false
impressions of who converted to Christianity, similar
to the controversy over Mormon baptisms of Holocaust
victims etc. I also hope I have at least brought up
some questions that need to be answered about this
family, and perhaps other families listed as converts.

Mark Jacobson
Boca Raton, FL

DOGULOV/DOVGALEVSKY - Belaya Tserkov/Kiev Ukraine;
COHEN/KANA/KAHAN - Belaya Tserkov, Ukraine;
JACOBSON - Polotsk, Belarus; COBLENTZ - Polotsk, Belarus;
KAMERMAN - Drohobycz, Galicia; KOPPEL - Stebnik/Drohobycz, Galicia;
JACOBI - Stratyn/Rohatyn, Galicia; ROTHLEIN - Stratyn/Rohatyn, Galicia;
TUCHFELD - Rzeszow/Stryj/Lvov, Galicia; GOLDSTEIN - Ranizow, Galicia


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen "Jewish Families in Galicia" - Conversions KAMMERMAN #general

Mark Jacobson
 

Hi

I was very interested in Pamela Weisberger's message
about a list of Jews >from Galicia who converted to
Christianity, especially after her message mentioned a
KAMMERMAN family >from Drohobycz, a family and town
very important to me and my research - my KAMERMAN
grandfather's surname and place of birth. I was not
entirely familiar with these particular KAMMERMANs but
checked my printout >from JRI Poland of the index of
Drohobycz records. I was able to find many of these
people in the indexed records. Now seeing the original
pdf file >from Pamela I have been able to do
comparisons and will report my findings. It raises
questions - most importantly why all these people are
on this list, since they were all living (and dying)
as Jews up to at least 1901 and are listed in Jewish
records for Drohobycz, and Manfred Daum's listing of
them has no reference to any Christian records as a
source for conversion information, only the names
Philipp and Mathilde Daum. The father of this
KAMMERMANN family, Moses KAMMERMANN's death is even
listed in the JRI Index, so it is highly unlikely he
ever converted. Here is a comparison of information
from Manfred Daum and information >from JRI Poland and
my conclusions. Mr. Daum lists events that happen to
this family up to 1914 and births before 1877 and
JRI-Poland only has births beginning in 1877 and goes
up to 1901, but there is still much information for
comparison.

“Judische Familien In Galizien” (Jewish Families in
Galicia), >from Manfred Daum contains information on
the family of Moses and Kidel KAMMERMANN from
Ugartsberg, Drohobycz district. It lists:
Moses, died 1896, his wife
Kidel, who it says died in 1914 and was buried in
1896? That must be a typo.
their daughters:
1. unknown female b. 1871
2. Chaje, 1875-1914, married to Rachmil FLACHS with
children:
a. Abraham b. 1890
b. Laja b. 1894
c. Schaindl b. 1897
d. Wilhelmine b. 1898

3. Amalie, 1878-1910 married to Isaak SOBEL with
children:
a. Abraham b. 1900
b. Aaron b. 1902
c. Josef b. 1905
d. Israel b. 1906
e. Henriette b. 1908
It also lists a second marriage for Isaak SOBEL to
Rahel HAFER.
4. Regina, b. 1880, married to Leiser GOLDSTEIN
5. Rebecka, b. 1882, married to Majer POLLAK

It curiously lists all these people as Jews, even the
children of Amalie and Chaje, and Isaak SOBEL's second
wife and the children with her, and I can find no
reference to anyone in this family converting to
Christianity in Manfred Daum's information.

JRI-Poland Drohobycz AGAD records, births 1877-1901,
deaths 1852-1901 (also two listings in Komarno AGAD
death records) has many records for this family.

Records for the family of Moses KAMERMAN/KAMMERMANN,
all events listed as taking place in Ugartsberg.

Moses KAMERMANN son of Leib Wolf and Ruchel Laja, died
in 1899 at age 68. There is no evidence here that
Moses converted, and if his death is listed here he
must have been buried in the Jewish cemetery.

Moses KAMERMAN and Gittel SCHEININGER had three
children born in the timeframe of the index (plus one
more >from death records):
Leib 1877-1879 (listed in Komarno town deaths)
Malke b. 1879
Henie b. 1882 (1895 death listed in Komarno town
deaths)
Rebeka b. 1885

Only daughters Chaje and Malke were married and had
children in the timeframe of the index, but they
basically match the names and information in Daum's
report, and all are Jews, listed in the Jewish records
of Drohobycz.

Rachmiel FLAKS and Chaje KAMERMAN in Ugartsberg, had
children listed:
Abraham Seinwel b. 1892
Lajcia b. 1894
Jozef b. 1896
Scheindel Rifke b. 1897
Moses b. 1899, died 1900
Sara Mina (not Wilhelmine as per Mr. Daum, although
that might be a clue to a later conversion?) b. 1901

Izak SOBEL and Malke KAMERMAN in Ugartsberg, had 1
child listed:
Abraham Samuel b. 1900

At this point in my research I have not made a
connection between my KAMERMAN family and this
particular KAMERMAN family, but I do not doubt there
is some connection - the families lived nearby and
shared a surname which primarily exists only around
Drohobycz/Boryslaw, nearby Sambor, and Przemysl. This
project has peaked my interest in this family. I have
traced my KAMERMAN line in Drohobycz back to my
grandfather's g-g-grandfather, Ichel KAMERMAN, who
lived sometime in the late 1700's to early 1800's,
having two known children around 1800.

As you see, vital events for this family of Moses
KAMERMAN occur in Jewish records up to the end of the
index in 1901, KAMERMANs born and dying as Jews in the
town of Ugartsberg, Drohobycz, Galicia, following
traditional naming patterns, and at least up to 1901
showing no evidence of conversion. I hope Mr. Daum can
explain these people being on his list as converts. I
suspect Mr. Daum is related to this family through a
branch that converted at some point, but that point is
definitely after 1901, definitely after the death of
the patriarch Moses and two documented marriages,
probably after all 4 listed marriages based on the
names supplied by Mr. Daum, so I question why these
people are all listed in this document. If anyone has
any insight into the particulars of this family please
let me know. Even without a direct connection to this
family, I feel a need to show that at least most of
this family were not converts, they were a Jewish
family and probably lived and died as Jews in Galicia,
the same as many of our families did. The presence of
so many KAMMERMANs on this list of converts gives the
mistaken impression that they were a significant part
of converted Jews in Galicia, but I have found through
JRI indexed Jewish records and close examination of
Mr. Daum's document that all KAMERMANs listed in this
document connect to the same family of Moses and
Gittel in Ugartsberg and many, if not all, the people
listed did not convert to Christianity, remaining
Jews. I hope Mr. Daum's document does not spread false
impressions of who converted to Christianity, similar
to the controversy over Mormon baptisms of Holocaust
victims etc. I also hope I have at least brought up
some questions that need to be answered about this
family, and perhaps other families listed as converts.

Mark Jacobson
Boca Raton, FL

DOGULOV/DOVGALEVSKY - Belaya Tserkov/Kiev Ukraine;
COHEN/KANA/KAHAN - Belaya Tserkov, Ukraine;
JACOBSON - Polotsk, Belarus; COBLENTZ - Polotsk, Belarus;
KAMERMAN - Drohobycz, Galicia; KOPPEL - Stebnik/Drohobycz, Galicia;
JACOBI - Stratyn/Rohatyn, Galicia; ROTHLEIN - Stratyn/Rohatyn, Galicia;
TUCHFELD - Rzeszow/Stryj/Lvov, Galicia; GOLDSTEIN - Ranizow, Galicia


Jewish Families in Galicia and JewishGen Researchers #general

Sally Goodman <sbgoody@...>
 

Re. Pamela Weisberger's Judische Familien In Galizien (Jewish Families in
Galicia), >from Manfred Daum who works with Galizien German Descendants...
I suspect many people will benefit >from the information Pamela provided with
this file and other work she has done on behalf of Gesher Galicia in
particular and JewishGen in general.

To thank Pamela and the many responders who help one another through this
forum, one should consider a contribution, large or small, to JewishGen
and/or Gesher Galicia.

Let's not dwell on the negatives - the endless messages re the "Lack of
Common Courtesy" but rather the positives - those wonderful Genners who do
respond and help one another, the thousands who benefit >from the
discussions, the education we get, the Region Special Interest Groups
(SIGS), the JewishGen-hosted Projects like JRI-Poland etc.

The best way I know to say "thank you" to anyone for anything is to make a
contribution to a worthy cause. I suggest a general contribution to
JewishGen, or a contribution to your favorite project, or honor a worthy
individual. JewishGen relies exclusively on our generosity to ensure their
continued growth. They count on our support.

Go to www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen-erosity/

Sally Goodman
Palm Springs/LA, CA

Researching:
ABELES Vienna, San Francisco; BROWN/GROSS Schenectady, NY; CARDOZO London,
Rochester, NYC; GOITMAN Kishinev, Tiraspol; HAYS Germany, Rochester, NYC;
KIRSCHBAUM Jaroslaw, Vienna; MANDELBERG Jaroslaw, Vienna, Berlin; MUHLSTEIN
Rzeszow, Vienna; NEUSPIEL, Nikolsburg, Moravia; Vienna & Hollabrunn Austria;
RESHOWER Austria, Germany, NYC; ROSENSTOCK Stryj, Rzeszow, Jaroslaw;
SELIGMAN Germany, Rochester, NYC; STEIN Stryj, Vienna.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Jewish Families in Galicia and JewishGen Researchers #general

Sally Goodman <sbgoody@...>
 

Re. Pamela Weisberger's Judische Familien In Galizien (Jewish Families in
Galicia), >from Manfred Daum who works with Galizien German Descendants...
I suspect many people will benefit >from the information Pamela provided with
this file and other work she has done on behalf of Gesher Galicia in
particular and JewishGen in general.

To thank Pamela and the many responders who help one another through this
forum, one should consider a contribution, large or small, to JewishGen
and/or Gesher Galicia.

Let's not dwell on the negatives - the endless messages re the "Lack of
Common Courtesy" but rather the positives - those wonderful Genners who do
respond and help one another, the thousands who benefit >from the
discussions, the education we get, the Region Special Interest Groups
(SIGS), the JewishGen-hosted Projects like JRI-Poland etc.

The best way I know to say "thank you" to anyone for anything is to make a
contribution to a worthy cause. I suggest a general contribution to
JewishGen, or a contribution to your favorite project, or honor a worthy
individual. JewishGen relies exclusively on our generosity to ensure their
continued growth. They count on our support.

Go to www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen-erosity/

Sally Goodman
Palm Springs/LA, CA

Researching:
ABELES Vienna, San Francisco; BROWN/GROSS Schenectady, NY; CARDOZO London,
Rochester, NYC; GOITMAN Kishinev, Tiraspol; HAYS Germany, Rochester, NYC;
KIRSCHBAUM Jaroslaw, Vienna; MANDELBERG Jaroslaw, Vienna, Berlin; MUHLSTEIN
Rzeszow, Vienna; NEUSPIEL, Nikolsburg, Moravia; Vienna & Hollabrunn Austria;
RESHOWER Austria, Germany, NYC; ROSENSTOCK Stryj, Rzeszow, Jaroslaw;
SELIGMAN Germany, Rochester, NYC; STEIN Stryj, Vienna.


Searching for TODRES #general

AK <alan.kolnik@...>
 

On behalf of a friend, I would like to hear (and pass along) any information
relating to families with last name "Todres" or closely similar names.

Thanks

Alan Kolnik
alan.kolnik@verizon.net


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Searching for TODRES #general

AK <alan.kolnik@...>
 

On behalf of a friend, I would like to hear (and pass along) any information
relating to families with last name "Todres" or closely similar names.

Thanks

Alan Kolnik
alan.kolnik@verizon.net


Barbados Jewish records #general

John Chandler <jcandvc@...>
 

Being >from Barbados W.I and live in Sydney Australia I find it extremely
difficult to locate my Jewish roots.

Always on my mothers side we were advised never to forget our Jewish
ancestors which I have been able to trace back to approx:1800's

All documents were lost in hurricanes and fires in the old days....is it
possible that I can locate on your website a list of names buried at the
Jewish cemetery in Barbados or Jewish names on board ships into Barbados
between 1637 to 1800

I am aware via your Jewishgen web that documents are located in New York
but unavailable for research on your site which may very well carry the key
to my ancestral Jewish pass.

Any help would be appreciated as after five years of research I have now
become desperate!!!

Thanking you in anticipation,

John Chandler


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Barbados Jewish records #general

John Chandler <jcandvc@...>
 

Being >from Barbados W.I and live in Sydney Australia I find it extremely
difficult to locate my Jewish roots.

Always on my mothers side we were advised never to forget our Jewish
ancestors which I have been able to trace back to approx:1800's

All documents were lost in hurricanes and fires in the old days....is it
possible that I can locate on your website a list of names buried at the
Jewish cemetery in Barbados or Jewish names on board ships into Barbados
between 1637 to 1800

I am aware via your Jewishgen web that documents are located in New York
but unavailable for research on your site which may very well carry the key
to my ancestral Jewish pass.

Any help would be appreciated as after five years of research I have now
become desperate!!!

Thanking you in anticipation,

John Chandler


COHEN Family of NYC/NJ #general

Suzy Lampert <suzylampert@...>
 

Do any New York or New Jersey JewishGenners recognize the names of, or know
how to contact, my relatives who I am trying desperately to locate? They
are:

Steven and Tina COHEN (brother and sister), in their 50s and 60s now. I do
not know Tina's married name. Tina and Steven's parents are Bernie and Ann
LEVINSON Cohen. Ann Levinson is >from Syracuse. Bernie Cohen's brother is
Murray Cohen. Bernie and Murray and their sister Estelle (married named
JACOBS) grew up in the Bronx on Fulton Avenue. Murray Cohen's wife is Roz
Cohen. Murray and Roz lived in New Jersey in the 1970s and still may live
there. Their son is Howard Cohen, who went to Fairleigh-Dickinson University
in the 1970s.

Thank you.

Suzy Lampert
Dallas, Texas USA
suzylampert@hotmail.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen COHEN Family of NYC/NJ #general

Suzy Lampert <suzylampert@...>
 

Do any New York or New Jersey JewishGenners recognize the names of, or know
how to contact, my relatives who I am trying desperately to locate? They
are:

Steven and Tina COHEN (brother and sister), in their 50s and 60s now. I do
not know Tina's married name. Tina and Steven's parents are Bernie and Ann
LEVINSON Cohen. Ann Levinson is >from Syracuse. Bernie Cohen's brother is
Murray Cohen. Bernie and Murray and their sister Estelle (married named
JACOBS) grew up in the Bronx on Fulton Avenue. Murray Cohen's wife is Roz
Cohen. Murray and Roz lived in New Jersey in the 1970s and still may live
there. Their son is Howard Cohen, who went to Fairleigh-Dickinson University
in the 1970s.

Thank you.

Suzy Lampert
Dallas, Texas USA
suzylampert@hotmail.com


Re: Common courtesy #general

henryn <henryn@...>
 

Folks:

My two cents:

Some people are very thankful but not very communicative, some people are
not particularly thankful, but very communicative... and so on to all
possible combinations. These parameters may change for a particular
person >from day to day, too.

This journey can be very difficult at times. After all, many of our roads
lead to the Holocaust. Supplying even a seemingly meaningless detail may
produce a completely unexpected and out-of-proportion emotional reaction.
Or abruptly turn a talkative person into a non-responder. That's all
besides the normal technical glitches...

Of course, it would be preferable for everyone to be courteous, but I find
it possible to understand most of the unexpected responses or non-response
in these terms. Then I turn my attention to other matters.

Thanks,

Henry

Henry Neugass
Palo Alto, CA
henryn@zzzspacebbs.com remove 'zzz'

Kletsk: KIRZNER
Wysokie Litewskie: GRYNFELD, ZUBOFF


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Common courtesy #general

henryn <henryn@...>
 

Folks:

My two cents:

Some people are very thankful but not very communicative, some people are
not particularly thankful, but very communicative... and so on to all
possible combinations. These parameters may change for a particular
person >from day to day, too.

This journey can be very difficult at times. After all, many of our roads
lead to the Holocaust. Supplying even a seemingly meaningless detail may
produce a completely unexpected and out-of-proportion emotional reaction.
Or abruptly turn a talkative person into a non-responder. That's all
besides the normal technical glitches...

Of course, it would be preferable for everyone to be courteous, but I find
it possible to understand most of the unexpected responses or non-response
in these terms. Then I turn my attention to other matters.

Thanks,

Henry

Henry Neugass
Palo Alto, CA
henryn@zzzspacebbs.com remove 'zzz'

Kletsk: KIRZNER
Wysokie Litewskie: GRYNFELD, ZUBOFF


Website : Austro-Hungarian Military Records #general

Adelle Gloger
 

Dear Genners,

Tom Weiss posted a message concerning Austro-Hungarian Military Records, and
wrote in part:
<<My question is, does anyone know where the military records
are kept for members of the Austro-Hungarian Army for recruits who
came >from Eastern Galicia? How can I obtain copies of these records?>>

Well, curious minds want to know, so... I did a simple search
on Yahoo.com for "Austro Hungarian Military" and found an interesting site.
It is titled: Austro-Hungarian Land Forces 1848-1918. The URL is:

http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/index.htm

The site is very comprehensive. One area has illustrations of insignia found
on the collars of military uniforms and their meanings. The site gives
history of the military and the battles.

In the "Links" area there was a link for:

" Kriegsarchiv. The Austrian War Archives in Vienna. A detailed site in both
German and English explaining the archive's holdings and services."

However, this area was entirely in German. I wrote to the site owner and he
responded with the the URL for the English language overview of the Austrian
War Archive's holdings:

http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/AUT/krainf-e.htm

I'm sure that those of us who are looking for Austro-Hungarian military
records will certainly find this site useful.

Adelle Weintraub Gloger
Shaker Hts., Ohio (Cleveland)
agloger@aol.com

MODERATOR NOTE: If you have not already done so, we strongly
encourage you to post this note in the JewishGen Austria-Czech
SIG list as well.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Website : Austro-Hungarian Military Records #general

Adelle Gloger
 

Dear Genners,

Tom Weiss posted a message concerning Austro-Hungarian Military Records, and
wrote in part:
<<My question is, does anyone know where the military records
are kept for members of the Austro-Hungarian Army for recruits who
came >from Eastern Galicia? How can I obtain copies of these records?>>

Well, curious minds want to know, so... I did a simple search
on Yahoo.com for "Austro Hungarian Military" and found an interesting site.
It is titled: Austro-Hungarian Land Forces 1848-1918. The URL is:

http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/index.htm

The site is very comprehensive. One area has illustrations of insignia found
on the collars of military uniforms and their meanings. The site gives
history of the military and the battles.

In the "Links" area there was a link for:

" Kriegsarchiv. The Austrian War Archives in Vienna. A detailed site in both
German and English explaining the archive's holdings and services."

However, this area was entirely in German. I wrote to the site owner and he
responded with the the URL for the English language overview of the Austrian
War Archive's holdings:

http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/AUT/krainf-e.htm

I'm sure that those of us who are looking for Austro-Hungarian military
records will certainly find this site useful.

Adelle Weintraub Gloger
Shaker Hts., Ohio (Cleveland)
agloger@aol.com

MODERATOR NOTE: If you have not already done so, we strongly
encourage you to post this note in the JewishGen Austria-Czech
SIG list as well.


Re: estates near Grobin in Kurland #latvia #courland

Martha Lev-Zion <martha@...>
 

On 27 May 2005, at 20:54, koshka wrote:

It also says he lived in the "Oberbartau volost of the Grobin
district" in
one place and "near Grobin" in another.
The meaning is the same, Polina. A volost is like a canton.


Was Grobin both a town and a district?
Yes.


Is Oberbartau another term for Libau?
Definitely not. Oberbartau would be the name of the district or canton
within the Grobin district.


Thank you very much for any help and suggestions. I'm going to Latvia
in
the Spring and trying to get as much information as possible.
I am jealous!! You should just enjoy yourself!

Martha Lev-Zion


Courland SIG #Courland #Latvia Re: estates near Grobin in Kurland #latvia #courland

Martha Lev-Zion <martha@...>
 

On 27 May 2005, at 20:54, koshka wrote:

It also says he lived in the "Oberbartau volost of the Grobin
district" in
one place and "near Grobin" in another.
The meaning is the same, Polina. A volost is like a canton.


Was Grobin both a town and a district?
Yes.


Is Oberbartau another term for Libau?
Definitely not. Oberbartau would be the name of the district or canton
within the Grobin district.


Thank you very much for any help and suggestions. I'm going to Latvia
in
the Spring and trying to get as much information as possible.
I am jealous!! You should just enjoy yourself!

Martha Lev-Zion


administrative district discussion #galicia

Suzan & Ron Wynne <srwynne@...>
 

I hope that Alexander Sharon didn't mean to dismiss the importance of
Galician administrative districts. My goal is to encourage Jewish
genealogists to take these districts very seriously. Regardless of where
the records are located today, they were ORGANIZED by administrative
districts and subdistricts. And, the fact that there were a few minor
changes in the Jewish administrative district structure over the period >from
1877 to 1918, is really not terribly important in the big scheme of things.
Yes, it may be helpful to know that a few towns were reassigned to new
districts over that period of time but, in my view, it is essential that
genealogists seeking information about their Jewish families understand the
administrative structure and how it tied in with the system of self
government (kehilla) that Austria created in Galicia.

The Jewish records were not kept by the administrative structure that
pertained to other denomiations. The excellent gazetteer, "Genealogical
Gazetteer of Galicia," by Brian Lenius, which is frequently mentioned in
this Digest, does not address the system for Jewish records. Those who are
using this gazetteer must keep in mind that because Lenius has said that a
town is in a particular administrative district does not necessarily pertain
to Jewish records.

My book, Finding Your Jewish Roots in GAlicia: A Resource Guide, " (now out
of print but expected to be reissued by Avotaynu in substantially revised
form in 2005), does provide both the correct main administrative and sub
district for Jewish records. If you have a question about the correct
district, I am always happy to provide that information via email. The list
of towns came >from the booklet providing the 1877 regulations. They missed
a few towns but such information for the missing towns is easy for me to
provide.

The Jewish system determined the boundaries of responsibility granted to
each kehilla and each district had responsibility for tax collection,
oversight of kosher butchering and meat, oversight of mikvot and all other
religious organizations including religious schools and the Jewish court
system (Bet Din). The kehilla system predated the 1875 law which set forth
the parameters for Jewish agents to be responsible for the collection and
maintenance of vital records. In 1877, regulations were published along
with a list of every town where Jews were known to live, divided up into
main districts and their subdistricts. These districts were identical to
those making up the kehilla structure. The 1877 regulations were simply
adding onto the duties of the existing kehillot, the new responsibility for
vital record collection and maintenance.

Other religious denominations used the Judicial/Administrative boundaries
for vital record collection. This is why I have cautioned a number of times
that people looking for Jewish records, as opposed to non-Jewish records,
not get confused by the frequent misleading comments in this Digest about
current websites that address issues about records. The forms used may have
been similar and the non-Jewish records were collected and maintained by
agents of the various religious organizations in Galicia. However, my
understanding is that THIS discussion group is for people who are seeking
Jewish records. Let's don't confuse the issues.

I have written about this issue many times and my previous comments are in
the index in the Gesher GAlicia SIG Digest. Anyone who wants to explore the
issue in depth can explore all of those comments.

One last word of reminder: After 1918, the Austrian territory of Galicia
was no longer. Poland took over and created it's own administrative
structure. Yes, the records over time were gathered up, stored in various
different places but we are long past that issue. Miriam Weiner has told us
through Routes to Roots what records still exist, according to the Polish
and Ukrainian governments. I hope that we can move on >from this discussion
about administrative districts to other topics.

Suzan Wynne
Kensington, MD
srwynne@erols.com


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia administrative district discussion #galicia

Suzan & Ron Wynne <srwynne@...>
 

I hope that Alexander Sharon didn't mean to dismiss the importance of
Galician administrative districts. My goal is to encourage Jewish
genealogists to take these districts very seriously. Regardless of where
the records are located today, they were ORGANIZED by administrative
districts and subdistricts. And, the fact that there were a few minor
changes in the Jewish administrative district structure over the period >from
1877 to 1918, is really not terribly important in the big scheme of things.
Yes, it may be helpful to know that a few towns were reassigned to new
districts over that period of time but, in my view, it is essential that
genealogists seeking information about their Jewish families understand the
administrative structure and how it tied in with the system of self
government (kehilla) that Austria created in Galicia.

The Jewish records were not kept by the administrative structure that
pertained to other denomiations. The excellent gazetteer, "Genealogical
Gazetteer of Galicia," by Brian Lenius, which is frequently mentioned in
this Digest, does not address the system for Jewish records. Those who are
using this gazetteer must keep in mind that because Lenius has said that a
town is in a particular administrative district does not necessarily pertain
to Jewish records.

My book, Finding Your Jewish Roots in GAlicia: A Resource Guide, " (now out
of print but expected to be reissued by Avotaynu in substantially revised
form in 2005), does provide both the correct main administrative and sub
district for Jewish records. If you have a question about the correct
district, I am always happy to provide that information via email. The list
of towns came >from the booklet providing the 1877 regulations. They missed
a few towns but such information for the missing towns is easy for me to
provide.

The Jewish system determined the boundaries of responsibility granted to
each kehilla and each district had responsibility for tax collection,
oversight of kosher butchering and meat, oversight of mikvot and all other
religious organizations including religious schools and the Jewish court
system (Bet Din). The kehilla system predated the 1875 law which set forth
the parameters for Jewish agents to be responsible for the collection and
maintenance of vital records. In 1877, regulations were published along
with a list of every town where Jews were known to live, divided up into
main districts and their subdistricts. These districts were identical to
those making up the kehilla structure. The 1877 regulations were simply
adding onto the duties of the existing kehillot, the new responsibility for
vital record collection and maintenance.

Other religious denominations used the Judicial/Administrative boundaries
for vital record collection. This is why I have cautioned a number of times
that people looking for Jewish records, as opposed to non-Jewish records,
not get confused by the frequent misleading comments in this Digest about
current websites that address issues about records. The forms used may have
been similar and the non-Jewish records were collected and maintained by
agents of the various religious organizations in Galicia. However, my
understanding is that THIS discussion group is for people who are seeking
Jewish records. Let's don't confuse the issues.

I have written about this issue many times and my previous comments are in
the index in the Gesher GAlicia SIG Digest. Anyone who wants to explore the
issue in depth can explore all of those comments.

One last word of reminder: After 1918, the Austrian territory of Galicia
was no longer. Poland took over and created it's own administrative
structure. Yes, the records over time were gathered up, stored in various
different places but we are long past that issue. Miriam Weiner has told us
through Routes to Roots what records still exist, according to the Polish
and Ukrainian governments. I hope that we can move on >from this discussion
about administrative districts to other topics.

Suzan Wynne
Kensington, MD
srwynne@erols.com


Re: Goldsteins, Schonfelds, Berliners #hungary

moishe@langsam.com <moishe@...>
 

Dear Group (and especially Melody, Touvia & Hallie),

This tree seems to have a connection to my research. The
name Chana Mindel was the name of the wife of the Bnei
Yissoschur, R' Hersh Mylech SPIRA (1783 - 1841). They had a
son-in-law named Moshe Schonfeld (1810 - c.1883). It would
seem that your Moshe Schonfeld, born before 1883 (much
before), would not be >from this line, based on common
Ashkenazik naming caonventions of not naming after living
ancestors.

Perhaps, these Schonfleds in your tree were related to the
Schonfelds in my tree. Perhaps further, someone in this
line DID in fact marry into the Bnei Yissochur line
(indicated by the existence of the Chana Mindel name in
your tree), but just not >from the line of Sara Spira
married to Moshe Schonfeld (1810 - c.1883). The Bnei
Yissoschur had 7 known children (see the page at:
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~dan/genealogy/Miller/spira/spira.htm
for more detail). Maybe your line married into one of the
other six lines.

Your thoughts would be welcome.

Moishe Miller
moishe@langsam.com
Brooklyn, NY
On Sat, 21 May 2005 12:25:15 -0700
Hallie Feldman <hallie@twincreeks.net> wrote:
I put a tree >from 1991 on my personal webpage.

If you go to www/twincreeks.net/gallery

under Hallie's albums, there is one marked genealogy.

In the genealogy album, the first three pages are
pictures. Pages 4 and 5 are a tree which Touvia
Goldstein made in 1991. It has birth and death dates and
other information I am not finding elsewhere.

It includes information on the siblings of Moishe
Schonfeld.

Thanks,
Hallie Feldman


Searching in Israel for Hillman Schacherl #hungary

elena schacherl <elenasc@...>
 

Hello to everyone,

While searching the Internet I came across a reference to an Israeli artist
named Jane (Yana) Hillman Schacherl who was born in Vienna in 1913. This is
the same year and place of birth of my great aunt Szeren Schacherl's
daughter.

Can anyone suggest how I might find out if this daughter is still alive and
if so how she might be located? The only white pages for Israel seem to be
available only in Hebrew which I can't read. Jane(Yana) won the Jerusalem
Prize in 1945. Would anyone know if that necessarily means she lived in
Jerusalem?

Would appreciate any help that anyone may be able to provide with this.

Elena Schacherl,

Calgary, Alberta, Canada

SEARCHING: SCHACHERL, STEINFELD, SCHACH, GRUNE, POLLAK