Date   

Fw: What did they do to the KLEIN Family? #hungary

Emanuel Klein <Klein.EW@...>
 

From: Emanuel Klein
To: h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:52 AM
Subject: What did they do to the KLEIN Family?


I am a new subscriber living in Australia. My father always hoped that one
day he will be able to visit the gravesite and carve in to stone the sorrow
for the senseless loss of his parents, brother and sisters. But he died
before finding the courage to search dusty archives, before confronting
neighbours who smiled at the departing Jews, before finding the strength to
reconcile with a world that God -ever so briefly- has forgotten. As time is
passing for all of us I feel now it's up to me to fulfil my father's
wish.After all, even my name was conceived in his parents memory.

Unfortunately, few if any documents have survived the 1940's and the topic
of the Holocaust have remained a "taboo" in our home. I was told that my
grandparents, aunties and uncles were taken to Auschwitz in 1944. But all
the Hungarian Jews say that their relatives were sent to Auschwitz.

None of us should depart this earth without leaving at least a sign behind
... a proof that we were fellow human travellers. In April or May, I want
to go to Auschwitz, Birkenau, Treblinka ... wherever and would like to erect
a monument, a plaque in my father and my family's memory. But where??

Is there anyone who could help me find where did they killed my family? The
information I have is as follows:

Place of residence: Gyergyo Szentmiklos (Sfintu Gheorghe), Transylvania now
Romania (in 1944 part of Hungary) & Szaszregen?

Grandfather: KLEIN Emanuel (Mano); Born 19 March 1887
Grandmother: UNGAR Irma (Klein); Born 21 June 1896
Children: KLEIN Laci (Laszlo); Born 6 January 1932
Magda
Jolan
Miklos (my father); Born 17 June
1917 Died in Israel 1989
Geza (alive in Germany)
Vili (alive in Hungary)
According to unreliable reports they were deported >from Szaszregen to
Auschwitz. A family friend who survived the concentration camp told someone
that she saw Irma and Laci hand in hand on arrival in Auschwitz. And they
went to the left.

Thank you, in anticipation

Emanuel KLEIN
Sydney, Australia
Klein.EW@bigpond.com.au


Hungary SIG #Hungary Fw: What did they do to the KLEIN Family? #hungary

Emanuel Klein <Klein.EW@...>
 

From: Emanuel Klein
To: h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:52 AM
Subject: What did they do to the KLEIN Family?


I am a new subscriber living in Australia. My father always hoped that one
day he will be able to visit the gravesite and carve in to stone the sorrow
for the senseless loss of his parents, brother and sisters. But he died
before finding the courage to search dusty archives, before confronting
neighbours who smiled at the departing Jews, before finding the strength to
reconcile with a world that God -ever so briefly- has forgotten. As time is
passing for all of us I feel now it's up to me to fulfil my father's
wish.After all, even my name was conceived in his parents memory.

Unfortunately, few if any documents have survived the 1940's and the topic
of the Holocaust have remained a "taboo" in our home. I was told that my
grandparents, aunties and uncles were taken to Auschwitz in 1944. But all
the Hungarian Jews say that their relatives were sent to Auschwitz.

None of us should depart this earth without leaving at least a sign behind
... a proof that we were fellow human travellers. In April or May, I want
to go to Auschwitz, Birkenau, Treblinka ... wherever and would like to erect
a monument, a plaque in my father and my family's memory. But where??

Is there anyone who could help me find where did they killed my family? The
information I have is as follows:

Place of residence: Gyergyo Szentmiklos (Sfintu Gheorghe), Transylvania now
Romania (in 1944 part of Hungary) & Szaszregen?

Grandfather: KLEIN Emanuel (Mano); Born 19 March 1887
Grandmother: UNGAR Irma (Klein); Born 21 June 1896
Children: KLEIN Laci (Laszlo); Born 6 January 1932
Magda
Jolan
Miklos (my father); Born 17 June
1917 Died in Israel 1989
Geza (alive in Germany)
Vili (alive in Hungary)
According to unreliable reports they were deported >from Szaszregen to
Auschwitz. A family friend who survived the concentration camp told someone
that she saw Irma and Laci hand in hand on arrival in Auschwitz. And they
went to the left.

Thank you, in anticipation

Emanuel KLEIN
Sydney, Australia
Klein.EW@bigpond.com.au


Q: Probate records from Montreal, Quebec? #general

Ted Gostin
 

I'm trying to determine whether two individuals who died in Montreal
in 1971 and 1987 had probated estates. >from what I've read,
however, it appears that probate records in Montreal are not
centralized, and I'm not sure where to write or call to find out if they
had probate files.

Can anyone familiar with Montreal research suggest where I should
check to see if these individuals had probated estates?

Thanks,
Ted Gostin
Los Angeles, CA
tedgostin@generationspress.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Q: Probate records from Montreal, Quebec? #general

Ted Gostin
 

I'm trying to determine whether two individuals who died in Montreal
in 1971 and 1987 had probated estates. >from what I've read,
however, it appears that probate records in Montreal are not
centralized, and I'm not sure where to write or call to find out if they
had probate files.

Can anyone familiar with Montreal research suggest where I should
check to see if these individuals had probated estates?

Thanks,
Ted Gostin
Los Angeles, CA
tedgostin@generationspress.com


BECK/BACK (with an umlaut over the A) from Vrbove #hungary

Gary Binetter <garybinetter@...>
 

I have just found out that my BECK/BACK family originated in Vrbove,
Slovakia.
Three brothers (Jakob, Filip and Markus) then went to Myjava, Piestany and
Bratislava.

If you have any interest please contact me privately.
Thank you.

Gary gbin@ozemail.com.au garybinetter@hotmail.com


Hungary SIG #Hungary BECK/BACK (with an umlaut over the A) from Vrbove #hungary

Gary Binetter <garybinetter@...>
 

I have just found out that my BECK/BACK family originated in Vrbove,
Slovakia.
Three brothers (Jakob, Filip and Markus) then went to Myjava, Piestany and
Bratislava.

If you have any interest please contact me privately.
Thank you.

Gary gbin@ozemail.com.au garybinetter@hotmail.com


Re: FrenchSig #general

SJHogarth <sjhogarth@...>
 

Would someone who belongs to the FrenchSig group please contact me
privately. I have some questions about a letter that I received.

Sharen Hogarth
mailto:sjhogarth@rogers.com

MODERATOR'S NOTE: The French SIG can be contacted at:
http://www.jewishgen.org/French


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: FrenchSig #general

SJHogarth <sjhogarth@...>
 

Would someone who belongs to the FrenchSig group please contact me
privately. I have some questions about a letter that I received.

Sharen Hogarth
mailto:sjhogarth@rogers.com

MODERATOR'S NOTE: The French SIG can be contacted at:
http://www.jewishgen.org/French


Re: with DNA it's yea or nay #dna

Melodykatz@...
 

In a message dated 2/27/02 9:31:08 PM, cwskydell@earthlink.net writes:

Carol, it is possible that somewhere along the male line, someone in an
earlier generation was adopted or part of the male line descended >from the
mother's first marriage. I would still be amazed if the families were not
connected somehow. Too many coincidences!
Melody

<< We are still left with the mystery of how such an unusual surname came to
be in two Jewish families......but that's a matter of conjecture since
there are no records on a surname designation. I guess we can play with
that one for a long time to come.

Carol Skydell
Laguna Woods, CA
>>

[MODERATOR NOTE: DNA testing is really not a Galician topic, but since
Carol openned up this discussion, answers will be allowed for today only.
Any further discussion should be private and sent directly sent to Carol at
<cwskydell@earthlink.net> ]


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Re: with DNA it's yea or nay #galicia

Melodykatz@...
 

In a message dated 2/27/02 9:31:08 PM, cwskydell@earthlink.net writes:

Carol, it is possible that somewhere along the male line, someone in an
earlier generation was adopted or part of the male line descended >from the
mother's first marriage. I would still be amazed if the families were not
connected somehow. Too many coincidences!
Melody

<< We are still left with the mystery of how such an unusual surname came to
be in two Jewish families......but that's a matter of conjecture since
there are no records on a surname designation. I guess we can play with
that one for a long time to come.

Carol Skydell
Laguna Woods, CA
>>

[MODERATOR NOTE: DNA testing is really not a Galician topic, but since
Carol openned up this discussion, answers will be allowed for today only.
Any further discussion should be private and sent directly sent to Carol at
<cwskydell@earthlink.net> ]


Re: with DNA it's yea or nay #dna

moishe@langsam.com <moishe@...>
 

Many members of my LANGSAM clan have the surname via their
great-grandmothers, so a surname does not always mean paternity.

-Moishe


Wrong! The resultant DNA tests between direct male descendants >from
each family line did not match on a single marker!
[MODERATOR NOTE: DNA testing is really not a Galician topic, but since
Carol openned up this discussion, answers will be allowed for today only.
Any further discussion should be private and sent directly sent to Carol at
<cwskydell@earthlink.net> ]


Re: galicia digest: February 27, 2002 #galicia

Joan Krotenberg
 

In reply to Carol's negative DNA tests, I had the opposite experience. The
Krotenbergs originated in Warsaw, Poland. We have discovered Krotenbergs in
Poland, Spain, Israel, Australia, France and the United States. We knew some
of the connections >from records. We choose three male Krotenbergs including
my husband, who if their DNA matched would connect all the known Krotenberg
families. All three were a perfect match on all 12 markers. This indicates
that they had a common ancestor. Oral tradition did speak of a common
ancestor. But we do not know how far back he lived or who he was. We now
call all the Krotenberg descendants cousins.
Joan Krotenberg
JoanK16157@aol.com

Searching KROTENBERG, KAFKA, COFSKY, >from Warsaw, Poland
HAGLER, FEIN, FELLER, >from Lutowiska, Poland
STREICHLER, BRODBAR, HIRSCHENFANG, >from Rohaytn and Knyazhnychi, Ukraine
MERER, CHESAK, >from Slonim and David Gorodok, Belarus

[MODERATOR NOTE: DNA testing is really not a Galician topic, but since
Carol openned up this discussion, answers will be allowed for today only.
Any further discussion should be private and sent directly sent to Carol at
<cwskydell@earthlink.net> ]


Re: Chatam Sofer #rabbinic

shalom fuchs <shalomfuchs@...>
 

On 2002-02-27, Moshe Dovid Friedman <moshetanach@yahoo.com> wrote:

Does Anyone know if any Chasidic Rebbes (Munkatch, Lubavitch,
Vizhnitz Belz etc.) or other gedolim such as the Vilna Gaon or
the Maharal are related to the Chasam Sofer (R' Moshe Sofer) or
to R' Akiva Eiger? If so, how?
According to the book of the EGER Family Association, written by
Akiva Eger(!) >from Kibutz Netzer Sireni, 1996. In the Akiva EGER
ancestor's (father's) side, there is the MaHaRaL, and the Tosfot
Yom Tov (not direct lineage).

By his descendants, I found the Radzin dynasty (Leiner), and
(Lehavdil!), close to the family, there is a very famous Jew, not
a Rabbi - Karl MARX! Some of the Munkatch and the Viznitz are
related also to the Tosfot Yom Tov (Heller), but it is too far.

Shalom Fuchs


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Re: with DNA it's yea or nay #galicia

moishe@langsam.com <moishe@...>
 

Many members of my LANGSAM clan have the surname via their
great-grandmothers, so a surname does not always mean paternity.

-Moishe


Wrong! The resultant DNA tests between direct male descendants >from
each family line did not match on a single marker!
[MODERATOR NOTE: DNA testing is really not a Galician topic, but since
Carol openned up this discussion, answers will be allowed for today only.
Any further discussion should be private and sent directly sent to Carol at
<cwskydell@earthlink.net> ]


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Re: galicia digest: February 27, 2002 #galicia

Joan Krotenberg
 

In reply to Carol's negative DNA tests, I had the opposite experience. The
Krotenbergs originated in Warsaw, Poland. We have discovered Krotenbergs in
Poland, Spain, Israel, Australia, France and the United States. We knew some
of the connections >from records. We choose three male Krotenbergs including
my husband, who if their DNA matched would connect all the known Krotenberg
families. All three were a perfect match on all 12 markers. This indicates
that they had a common ancestor. Oral tradition did speak of a common
ancestor. But we do not know how far back he lived or who he was. We now
call all the Krotenberg descendants cousins.
Joan Krotenberg
JoanK16157@aol.com

Searching KROTENBERG, KAFKA, COFSKY, >from Warsaw, Poland
HAGLER, FEIN, FELLER, >from Lutowiska, Poland
STREICHLER, BRODBAR, HIRSCHENFANG, >from Rohaytn and Knyazhnychi, Ukraine
MERER, CHESAK, >from Slonim and David Gorodok, Belarus

[MODERATOR NOTE: DNA testing is really not a Galician topic, but since
Carol openned up this discussion, answers will be allowed for today only.
Any further discussion should be private and sent directly sent to Carol at
<cwskydell@earthlink.net> ]


Rabbinic Genealogy SIG #Rabbinic Re: Chatam Sofer #rabbinic

shalom fuchs <shalomfuchs@...>
 

On 2002-02-27, Moshe Dovid Friedman <moshetanach@yahoo.com> wrote:

Does Anyone know if any Chasidic Rebbes (Munkatch, Lubavitch,
Vizhnitz Belz etc.) or other gedolim such as the Vilna Gaon or
the Maharal are related to the Chasam Sofer (R' Moshe Sofer) or
to R' Akiva Eiger? If so, how?
According to the book of the EGER Family Association, written by
Akiva Eger(!) >from Kibutz Netzer Sireni, 1996. In the Akiva EGER
ancestor's (father's) side, there is the MaHaRaL, and the Tosfot
Yom Tov (not direct lineage).

By his descendants, I found the Radzin dynasty (Leiner), and
(Lehavdil!), close to the family, there is a very famous Jew, not
a Rabbi - Karl MARX! Some of the Munkatch and the Viznitz are
related also to the Tosfot Yom Tov (Heller), but it is too far.

Shalom Fuchs


Re: with DNA it's yea or nay #dna

Adelle Gloger
 

Carol's story was very interesting to say the least. It isn't as if the
surname was Schwartz, or Goldberg. My vote is for "Lab Error." We have all
been victim of such errors for far simpler lab tests. I think somebody "fell
asleep at the wheel."

I think the two families should adopt each other as family !

My personal experience has been this.

When the DNA testing was first offered through JewishGen, we discussed the
issue with our Rabbi since my younger son was about to be married. The
reason this issue came up was because one of my husband's 1st cousins (who he
had not had contact with in over 40 years), the son of his father's brother,
said they were Cohanim. News to my husband. If his 1st cousin was a Cohane
then it follows he was also. Why not get the DNA test to prove it. Well,
the bottom line was that the Rabbi said that for purposes of determining that
line, the DNA test were not reliable.

So, perhaps reliability is the issue in Carol's case. If we did not have
DNA testing the two families would have accepted each other as family. So
forget the DNA ! Enjoy your new family.


Adelle Weintraub Gloger
Shaker Hts., Ohio
agloger@aol.com

[MODERATOR NOTE: DNA testing is really not a Galician topic, but since
Carol openned up this discussion, answers will be allowed for today only.
Any further discussion should be private and sent directly sent to Carol at
<cwskydell@earthlink.net> ]


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Re: with DNA it's yea or nay #galicia

Adelle Gloger
 

Carol's story was very interesting to say the least. It isn't as if the
surname was Schwartz, or Goldberg. My vote is for "Lab Error." We have all
been victim of such errors for far simpler lab tests. I think somebody "fell
asleep at the wheel."

I think the two families should adopt each other as family !

My personal experience has been this.

When the DNA testing was first offered through JewishGen, we discussed the
issue with our Rabbi since my younger son was about to be married. The
reason this issue came up was because one of my husband's 1st cousins (who he
had not had contact with in over 40 years), the son of his father's brother,
said they were Cohanim. News to my husband. If his 1st cousin was a Cohane
then it follows he was also. Why not get the DNA test to prove it. Well,
the bottom line was that the Rabbi said that for purposes of determining that
line, the DNA test were not reliable.

So, perhaps reliability is the issue in Carol's case. If we did not have
DNA testing the two families would have accepted each other as family. So
forget the DNA ! Enjoy your new family.


Adelle Weintraub Gloger
Shaker Hts., Ohio
agloger@aol.com

[MODERATOR NOTE: DNA testing is really not a Galician topic, but since
Carol openned up this discussion, answers will be allowed for today only.
Any further discussion should be private and sent directly sent to Carol at
<cwskydell@earthlink.net> ]


with DNA it's yea or nay #galicia

Bruce Reisch <bir1@...>
 

There may be lots of possible explanations, but one of the most
likely in my mind is that one family used the mother's surname.
Descendants of that family would not carry the same Y chromosome as
the male descendants of a family with a strict patronymic (is that
the right word?) naming pattern. Yet both families will still have a
common ancestor.

I'll bet both families are related! But proving it will be difficult
or as you say "I guess we can play with that one for a long time to
come."

Bruce REISCH
Geneva, New York
(by the way, my last name may designate my family as originating,
too, in Rzeszow a/k/a Reisha in Yiddish)


Subject: with DNA it's yea or nay
From: carol skydell <cwskydell@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:20:31 -0800


Now, given all that information, what would you say the chances of two
Jewish families, each with the same surname that appears nowhere else in
the United States and coming >from the same place were not related? Slim
to none, right.?

Wrong! The resultant DNA tests between direct male descendants from
each family line did not match on a single marker!
[MODERATOR NOTE: DNA testing is really not a Galician topic, but since
Carol openned up this discussion, answers will be allowed for today only.
Any further discussion should be private and sent directly sent to Carol at
<cwskydell@earthlink.net> ]


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia with DNA it's yea or nay #galicia

Bruce Reisch <bir1@...>
 

There may be lots of possible explanations, but one of the most
likely in my mind is that one family used the mother's surname.
Descendants of that family would not carry the same Y chromosome as
the male descendants of a family with a strict patronymic (is that
the right word?) naming pattern. Yet both families will still have a
common ancestor.

I'll bet both families are related! But proving it will be difficult
or as you say "I guess we can play with that one for a long time to
come."

Bruce REISCH
Geneva, New York
(by the way, my last name may designate my family as originating,
too, in Rzeszow a/k/a Reisha in Yiddish)


Subject: with DNA it's yea or nay
From: carol skydell <cwskydell@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:20:31 -0800


Now, given all that information, what would you say the chances of two
Jewish families, each with the same surname that appears nowhere else in
the United States and coming >from the same place were not related? Slim
to none, right.?

Wrong! The resultant DNA tests between direct male descendants from
each family line did not match on a single marker!
[MODERATOR NOTE: DNA testing is really not a Galician topic, but since
Carol openned up this discussion, answers will be allowed for today only.
Any further discussion should be private and sent directly sent to Carol at
<cwskydell@earthlink.net> ]