Date   

Re: BEER-HOFMANN from Lomnice #austria-czech

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

Randy Schoenberg posted as follows:

"Note that to match the information form the Zeisel article in the Gold book
with the information in the catalogue form the Jewish Museum of Vienna I
have guessed to combine some of the German and Hebrew names where it seemed
to make sense, i.e. Fanny Koenig = Feigele Koenig. Abraham Hofmann =
Albert Hofmann. Katharina Hofmann = Chaile Hofmann. Some are bit of
a stretch, ie. Hermann Beer = Gobrisch Beer. Herz Beer = Naftali Beer.
The Zeisel article has Anna Beer being the daughter of Herz Beer,
while the JMW book has Anna as the daughter of Naftali Beer. I have
guessed these were the same, although the Zeisel article says that
Chaile Hofmann was Herz Beer's second wife. It is possible that Chaile
was previously married to Naftali Beer and then married Herz Beer who
adopted her daughter Anna. But I prefer the solution that Naftali and Herz
were one and the same."

Randy is correct in his guess that "Naftali and Herz were one and the
same". The link is that Naftali is a Hebrew name while Herz/Herts (the
first is the Germanic spelling, the second, the correct standard
transliteration of the Yiddish name) is a Yiddish name which is a kinui for
the Hebrew name Naftali. This means that in important Jewish legal
documents, a person who has both of these names must be designated by one
of the following: Naftali Herts or Naftali haMechune Herts. The Hebrew
word "haMechune" is a Hebrew legal term which means "alias" or "known as".

Thus, considering that many Jews used either of the two names alternatively
in various venues, it would not be surprising to find either name
separately in non-legal Jewish or non-Jewish archival documents.

Shavu'a tov,

Prof. G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel

MODERATOR NOTE: Extensive discussion of the correlation between names in English
(or other languages), Yiddish, and Hebrew has appeared in the JewishGen Discussion
Group over the years. Unfortunately, there is no absolute correlation, although
some correspondences are more common than others. In general, people are and were
free to use whatever name they wanted, and often the Hebrew name is not what
you would expect. Therefore, we will not launch a discussion here about given
names. If you would like additional information , please check the following
resources:
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/faq.html#Names
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/namfaq0.htm
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/GivenNames/
http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: BEER-HOFMANN from Lomnice #austria-czech

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

Randy Schoenberg posted as follows:

"Note that to match the information form the Zeisel article in the Gold book
with the information in the catalogue form the Jewish Museum of Vienna I
have guessed to combine some of the German and Hebrew names where it seemed
to make sense, i.e. Fanny Koenig = Feigele Koenig. Abraham Hofmann =
Albert Hofmann. Katharina Hofmann = Chaile Hofmann. Some are bit of
a stretch, ie. Hermann Beer = Gobrisch Beer. Herz Beer = Naftali Beer.
The Zeisel article has Anna Beer being the daughter of Herz Beer,
while the JMW book has Anna as the daughter of Naftali Beer. I have
guessed these were the same, although the Zeisel article says that
Chaile Hofmann was Herz Beer's second wife. It is possible that Chaile
was previously married to Naftali Beer and then married Herz Beer who
adopted her daughter Anna. But I prefer the solution that Naftali and Herz
were one and the same."

Randy is correct in his guess that "Naftali and Herz were one and the
same". The link is that Naftali is a Hebrew name while Herz/Herts (the
first is the Germanic spelling, the second, the correct standard
transliteration of the Yiddish name) is a Yiddish name which is a kinui for
the Hebrew name Naftali. This means that in important Jewish legal
documents, a person who has both of these names must be designated by one
of the following: Naftali Herts or Naftali haMechune Herts. The Hebrew
word "haMechune" is a Hebrew legal term which means "alias" or "known as".

Thus, considering that many Jews used either of the two names alternatively
in various venues, it would not be surprising to find either name
separately in non-legal Jewish or non-Jewish archival documents.

Shavu'a tov,

Prof. G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel

MODERATOR NOTE: Extensive discussion of the correlation between names in English
(or other languages), Yiddish, and Hebrew has appeared in the JewishGen Discussion
Group over the years. Unfortunately, there is no absolute correlation, although
some correspondences are more common than others. In general, people are and were
free to use whatever name they wanted, and often the Hebrew name is not what
you would expect. Therefore, we will not launch a discussion here about given
names. If you would like additional information , please check the following
resources:
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/faq.html#Names
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/namfaq0.htm
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/GivenNames/
http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/


Re: Familiant record Prague #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Peter Zimmer >from Muenster, Germany writes:
My gtgtgtgt -grandfather, Elias POHL [born Prague 1764] married Sara KATZ >from
Jenikof in 1793. Three years later, in 1796, their son Lippmann, my gtgtgt-
grandfather was born. On the marriage certificate, his wife's father's name is
given as Philip KATZ >from Jenikof. On the Familiant register, her name is given
as Saara Lippmann Philip. Elias' first son, Lippmann POHL .. became the new
Familiant. The names of his parents are given as Elias and Helena.

Elias divorced his first wife Saara and remarried Helena Isak SCHMELKES in 1818.
What did {divorce} 200 years ago mean for the parents and children?
=======================================================

Peter is worried about the confusion arising between the names Lippmann and
Philip which appear on familianten and wedding certificates as Lippmann Philip and
Philip Katz respectively.

Peter; I believe that there is no confusion but they are synonymous.

I have an example in my family of a teacher called Philip Diamant [1791-1847],
but on 22nd June 1834, the wedding of his daughter, the bride Minna DIAMANT and
her husband Leon BIACH [my gt-gt-gt uncle] are presented with a wedding chalice
from the community in Corompa [Grupa] engraved to Semele, daughter of Lippmann
DIAMANT.

I presume your Lippmann opted for the family name KATZ and then became known
officially as Philip KATZ.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to find either Lippmann, Philip/Filip, or
variants with KATZ/CATZ in the 1793 census of Jenikov Golchuv [Goltsch Jenikau]
or Jenikov Vetrny [Windig Jenikau] in the Caslauer Kreis, so perhaps he had
already died or had moved to Prague. Or is there another place called Jenikov?

As for the confusion between Saara and Helena - there are many examples of the
generic first name "Saara" which alternates with other more established non-Jewish
names. My gt-gt grandmother >from Kolin is sometimes called Sara {POPPER} KOHN
and at other times Caroline [POPPER] KOHN. Her grave in Vienna is inscribed with
the latter name.

Perhaps Lippmann POHL's real mother Saara was also called Helena? If not, there
may be some legal reason that his step-mother Helena is named on the wedding
certificate - or it could be a mistake by the scribe, who overlooked the word
"geschieden".

As for divorce two hundred years ago - human nature has not changed and I am sure
the same traumas were present, then as now. Lippmann POHL, however was already
grown-up when his father remarried. He was 23 when his first half-brother was
born, so hopefully there was not much jealousy!

Celia Male [UK]


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: Familiant record Prague #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Peter Zimmer >from Muenster, Germany writes:
My gtgtgtgt -grandfather, Elias POHL [born Prague 1764] married Sara KATZ >from
Jenikof in 1793. Three years later, in 1796, their son Lippmann, my gtgtgt-
grandfather was born. On the marriage certificate, his wife's father's name is
given as Philip KATZ >from Jenikof. On the Familiant register, her name is given
as Saara Lippmann Philip. Elias' first son, Lippmann POHL .. became the new
Familiant. The names of his parents are given as Elias and Helena.

Elias divorced his first wife Saara and remarried Helena Isak SCHMELKES in 1818.
What did {divorce} 200 years ago mean for the parents and children?
=======================================================

Peter is worried about the confusion arising between the names Lippmann and
Philip which appear on familianten and wedding certificates as Lippmann Philip and
Philip Katz respectively.

Peter; I believe that there is no confusion but they are synonymous.

I have an example in my family of a teacher called Philip Diamant [1791-1847],
but on 22nd June 1834, the wedding of his daughter, the bride Minna DIAMANT and
her husband Leon BIACH [my gt-gt-gt uncle] are presented with a wedding chalice
from the community in Corompa [Grupa] engraved to Semele, daughter of Lippmann
DIAMANT.

I presume your Lippmann opted for the family name KATZ and then became known
officially as Philip KATZ.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to find either Lippmann, Philip/Filip, or
variants with KATZ/CATZ in the 1793 census of Jenikov Golchuv [Goltsch Jenikau]
or Jenikov Vetrny [Windig Jenikau] in the Caslauer Kreis, so perhaps he had
already died or had moved to Prague. Or is there another place called Jenikov?

As for the confusion between Saara and Helena - there are many examples of the
generic first name "Saara" which alternates with other more established non-Jewish
names. My gt-gt grandmother >from Kolin is sometimes called Sara {POPPER} KOHN
and at other times Caroline [POPPER] KOHN. Her grave in Vienna is inscribed with
the latter name.

Perhaps Lippmann POHL's real mother Saara was also called Helena? If not, there
may be some legal reason that his step-mother Helena is named on the wedding
certificate - or it could be a mistake by the scribe, who overlooked the word
"geschieden".

As for divorce two hundred years ago - human nature has not changed and I am sure
the same traumas were present, then as now. Lippmann POHL, however was already
grown-up when his father remarried. He was 23 when his first half-brother was
born, so hopefully there was not much jealousy!

Celia Male [UK]


Re: New York City Juvenile Asylum, c. 1900 #general

Remagolds@...
 

My father, Irving Oblas was placed in the HOA(Hebrew Orphanage Asylum) in
Manhattan, when he was 12 years old. I was also horrified to see him and his
brothers listed on the 1930 census as "inmates." Much to our 20th century
sensibilities that is how they referred to orphans in those days. Your grandfather
committed no crime, he was just child living in an orphanage.
Rema Goldstein, Albany, NY


Re: Hinde=Gussie? #general

Harvey <harvey@...>
 

original message:

Wondering if it is possible that Gussie could be
an Americanized form if Hinde/Hinda/Inda, etc. She is
from Kamenets-Podolskiy(now Ukraine)to NY about 1907.
My grandmother, Hinde Felman (nee Miler) left Kamenets-Podolsk in 1906 and
came to Glasgow, Scotland, where she became Annie.

Usual story - people called themselves whatever they wanted! My
grandfather's aunt, Fanny (Freedman) Kaplan >from Vilki, Lithuania, came to
Glasgow, then the US, and ended up as Charlotte.

Harvey L Kaplan

Glasgow, Scotland


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: New York City Juvenile Asylum, c. 1900 #general

Remagolds@...
 

My father, Irving Oblas was placed in the HOA(Hebrew Orphanage Asylum) in
Manhattan, when he was 12 years old. I was also horrified to see him and his
brothers listed on the 1930 census as "inmates." Much to our 20th century
sensibilities that is how they referred to orphans in those days. Your grandfather
committed no crime, he was just child living in an orphanage.
Rema Goldstein, Albany, NY


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Hinde=Gussie? #general

Harvey <harvey@...>
 

original message:

Wondering if it is possible that Gussie could be
an Americanized form if Hinde/Hinda/Inda, etc. She is
from Kamenets-Podolskiy(now Ukraine)to NY about 1907.
My grandmother, Hinde Felman (nee Miler) left Kamenets-Podolsk in 1906 and
came to Glasgow, Scotland, where she became Annie.

Usual story - people called themselves whatever they wanted! My
grandfather's aunt, Fanny (Freedman) Kaplan >from Vilki, Lithuania, came to
Glasgow, then the US, and ended up as Charlotte.

Harvey L Kaplan

Glasgow, Scotland


Re: Vaslovick or Vaslovich, Poland ? #general

MarvRavis@...
 

Cousins,
Has anyone have any info on the subject town?

Where is it located?
Has its name been changed?

Thanks
Marvin Ravis
Las Vegas, NV
MarvRAvis@...

MODERATOR NOTE: The name of the town Marvin is asking about
is Vaslovick or Vaslovich, Poland.

Please don't assume that a reader of your post will know what is in
the subject line. Not all e-mail programs show the subject line as
you are reading a message. Expressions like "the subject town"
will be a mystery to anyone who uses such a program.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re:Vaslovick or Vaslovich, Poland ? #general

MarvRavis@...
 

Cousins,
Has anyone have any info on the subject town?

Where is it located?
Has its name been changed?

Thanks
Marvin Ravis
Las Vegas, NV
MarvRAvis@...

MODERATOR NOTE: The name of the town Marvin is asking about
is Vaslovick or Vaslovich, Poland.

Please don't assume that a reader of your post will know what is in
the subject line. Not all e-mail programs show the subject line as
you are reading a message. Expressions like "the subject town"
will be a mystery to anyone who uses such a program.


Jewish Vital Record Registrars of Hungary #general

George Lowenstein <georgel@...>
 

Has Dr. Kinga Frojimovics published her book, "Catalog of the Jewish
Registrars in Hungary" as planned and reported in her article in the
winter 2003 issue of Avotaynu? If so, is it available?

George Lowenstein
Doylestown, PA
Georgel@...

LOWENSTEIN / LEVENSTEIN / SCHEIMSKY (Warsaw, Poland)
DRAIZEN (Odessa and Barr, Ukraine)
WEINSTEIN (Proskowitz, Russia)
GOLDBERGER (Ujszasz and Szerencs, Hungary)
WEISSMAN (Abaujszanto and Miskolc, Hungary)
ENGLANDER / SPIELBERGER (Hungary)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Jewish Vital Record Registrars of Hungary #general

George Lowenstein <georgel@...>
 

Has Dr. Kinga Frojimovics published her book, "Catalog of the Jewish
Registrars in Hungary" as planned and reported in her article in the
winter 2003 issue of Avotaynu? If so, is it available?

George Lowenstein
Doylestown, PA
Georgel@...

LOWENSTEIN / LEVENSTEIN / SCHEIMSKY (Warsaw, Poland)
DRAIZEN (Odessa and Barr, Ukraine)
WEINSTEIN (Proskowitz, Russia)
GOLDBERGER (Ujszasz and Szerencs, Hungary)
WEISSMAN (Abaujszanto and Miskolc, Hungary)
ENGLANDER / SPIELBERGER (Hungary)


Noah / Nachman #general

Israel P
 

Is there any reasonable chance that a child born in 1917 in Vienna to E Galician
parents would have received the Jewish name Noah after an ancestor named
Nachman? (This Noah had a seciular name which was entirely unrelated.)

Israel Pickholtz


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Noah / Nachman #general

Israel P
 

Is there any reasonable chance that a child born in 1917 in Vienna to E Galician
parents would have received the Jewish name Noah after an ancestor named
Nachman? (This Noah had a seciular name which was entirely unrelated.)

Israel Pickholtz


Seeking Any And All Information on Anna & David RAKOFF, Emma & Samuel MENDELSON #general

sacredsisters3@...
 

Hello To All Researchers
I am trying to find out as much as I can about my ancestors on my
mother's side. I don't know very much about them and I am hoping there
are some descendants out there who can tell me what I want to know. I
am looking for any information on my great-grandparents David & Anna
Rakoff and also Samuel & Emma Mendelson. Samuel is supposedly brother
to Anna. I have a lot of old photos, most >from the new york and others
from russia. The pictures I believe originally belonged to my
great-grandmother so the people in these photos has to be her family.
I am hoping some one out there can help me unravel some of the mystery
surrounding these families, because I can't seem to find anything on
them. I have put quite a lot of those photos on the jewishgen site, so
you can see for yourself what they look like. Hopefully someone will
be able to identify some of them for me. I do have a few documents
along with the photos. I have David & Anna's petitions and
naturalization papers. I also have Anna's death record. I also have a
marriage record dated 1940 even though they got married before then
according to the other papers. Thats one mystery I would like solved.
Why did they get married again. They had two Kids Ruth And Murray
birth years 1922 & 1923. Any information and help is appreciated.
Thanks,
Sarah Greenberg
sacredsisters3@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Seeking Any And All Information on Anna & David RAKOFF, Emma & Samuel MENDELSON #general

sacredsisters3@...
 

Hello To All Researchers
I am trying to find out as much as I can about my ancestors on my
mother's side. I don't know very much about them and I am hoping there
are some descendants out there who can tell me what I want to know. I
am looking for any information on my great-grandparents David & Anna
Rakoff and also Samuel & Emma Mendelson. Samuel is supposedly brother
to Anna. I have a lot of old photos, most >from the new york and others
from russia. The pictures I believe originally belonged to my
great-grandmother so the people in these photos has to be her family.
I am hoping some one out there can help me unravel some of the mystery
surrounding these families, because I can't seem to find anything on
them. I have put quite a lot of those photos on the jewishgen site, so
you can see for yourself what they look like. Hopefully someone will
be able to identify some of them for me. I do have a few documents
along with the photos. I have David & Anna's petitions and
naturalization papers. I also have Anna's death record. I also have a
marriage record dated 1940 even though they got married before then
according to the other papers. Thats one mystery I would like solved.
Why did they get married again. They had two Kids Ruth And Murray
birth years 1922 & 1923. Any information and help is appreciated.
Thanks,
Sarah Greenberg
sacredsisters3@...


Descendants of Louis MARKS/MARX/MARCUS (c1850-1924) #germany

Renee Steinig <rsteinig@...>
 

Does anyone out there recognize this family?

I have good information on Michael and descendants but am hoping to learn
more about his parents and siblings. According to censuses, Louis and Bertha
came to New York City in the 1870s. Reported origins vary >from census to
census; taken all together, they suggest that he was >from Russian Poland and
she was >from Prussia. The children were probably all born in Manhattan (NY, NY).

1 Louis MARKS or MARX or MARCUS(c1850-1924)
.. +Bertha (c1855-1906)
..... 2 Celia (Cecilie) MARX (c1877-1938)
......... +Jacob JACOBSON (c1865-1928)
............. 3 Herman JACOBSON (c1900-1928)
............. 3 Leo JACOBSON
............. 3 Arthur JACOBSON
............. 3 Irving JACOBSON
............. 3 Bertram JACOBSON (1907-1977)
............. 3 Seymour JACOBSON
..... 2 Michael MARX (1879-1957)
......... +Essie LISSNER-MARCUS (1890-1958)
............. 3 Bertha Rosalie MARX (1911-1949)
............. 3 Ethel Helen MARX (1913-1994)
............. 3 Marcus Samuel MARX (1921-2003)
..... 2 Elizabeth (Lizzie) MARX (1881-1949)
......... +Isaac KEMP (c1872-1963?)
............. 3 George KEMP (c1901-1982?)
............. 3 Arthur KEMP (c1903-1962)
............. 3 Bertha KEMP
................. +Arthur? NEWMAN
..... 2 Eva MARX (1884-1935)
......... +Jack FRIEDENBERG (?-aft. 1934)
..... 2 Alexander MARX (1887-1904?) Thanks.

Renee Stern Steinig Dix Hills (Long Island), NY RSteinig@...


German SIG #Germany Descendants of Louis MARKS/MARX/MARCUS (c1850-1924) #germany

Renee Steinig <rsteinig@...>
 

Does anyone out there recognize this family?

I have good information on Michael and descendants but am hoping to learn
more about his parents and siblings. According to censuses, Louis and Bertha
came to New York City in the 1870s. Reported origins vary >from census to
census; taken all together, they suggest that he was >from Russian Poland and
she was >from Prussia. The children were probably all born in Manhattan (NY, NY).

1 Louis MARKS or MARX or MARCUS(c1850-1924)
.. +Bertha (c1855-1906)
..... 2 Celia (Cecilie) MARX (c1877-1938)
......... +Jacob JACOBSON (c1865-1928)
............. 3 Herman JACOBSON (c1900-1928)
............. 3 Leo JACOBSON
............. 3 Arthur JACOBSON
............. 3 Irving JACOBSON
............. 3 Bertram JACOBSON (1907-1977)
............. 3 Seymour JACOBSON
..... 2 Michael MARX (1879-1957)
......... +Essie LISSNER-MARCUS (1890-1958)
............. 3 Bertha Rosalie MARX (1911-1949)
............. 3 Ethel Helen MARX (1913-1994)
............. 3 Marcus Samuel MARX (1921-2003)
..... 2 Elizabeth (Lizzie) MARX (1881-1949)
......... +Isaac KEMP (c1872-1963?)
............. 3 George KEMP (c1901-1982?)
............. 3 Arthur KEMP (c1903-1962)
............. 3 Bertha KEMP
................. +Arthur? NEWMAN
..... 2 Eva MARX (1884-1935)
......... +Jack FRIEDENBERG (?-aft. 1934)
..... 2 Alexander MARX (1887-1904?) Thanks.

Renee Stern Steinig Dix Hills (Long Island), NY RSteinig@...


Re: Use of Middle Names Israel and Sarah on German 1939 Minority Census #germany

Fritz Neubauer
 

Susan Meehan wrote:
I am doing research in preparation for putting in a claim with the
Swiss Dormant Bank Accounts commission. To that end, information on
the middle name is critical, as the name on the list is a common one,
Alfred DEUTSCH, but has a middle initial of M.
I found my relative, Alfred DEUTSCH, on the Hamburg 1939 German
Minority Census, along with a bunch of other relatives. However, his
middle name according to the census list, is Israel, and that of his
wife, Henriette, is Sarah. That discouraged me at first. But then I
noticed, while traversing through the microfilm that a great number
of clearly Jewish names in Hamburg all had the middle name of Israel
if they were male, and Sarah if they were female. Is this possibly a
generic middle name? Was it done as a protest, and if so, was it true
all across Germany? Why was this done?
Dear Susan,
it was NOT a protest, but one of the laws arising >from the Nuremberg
laws stated that starting on August 17, 1938 every German Jew was
*** forced *** to add "Israel" or "Sara" as middle names to their names to make
their Jewishness obvious. These additional names were inserted into all
passports, identity cards and even restrospectively into birth
certificates - they were *** not *** their real names but names forced upon them
by the Nazi authorities - in the case of survivors these names were
removed again after the war. With kind regards

Fritz Neubauer, North Germany <fritz.neubauer@...>


German SIG #Germany Re: Use of Middle Names Israel and Sarah on German 1939 Minority Census #germany

Fritz Neubauer
 

Susan Meehan wrote:
I am doing research in preparation for putting in a claim with the
Swiss Dormant Bank Accounts commission. To that end, information on
the middle name is critical, as the name on the list is a common one,
Alfred DEUTSCH, but has a middle initial of M.
I found my relative, Alfred DEUTSCH, on the Hamburg 1939 German
Minority Census, along with a bunch of other relatives. However, his
middle name according to the census list, is Israel, and that of his
wife, Henriette, is Sarah. That discouraged me at first. But then I
noticed, while traversing through the microfilm that a great number
of clearly Jewish names in Hamburg all had the middle name of Israel
if they were male, and Sarah if they were female. Is this possibly a
generic middle name? Was it done as a protest, and if so, was it true
all across Germany? Why was this done?
Dear Susan,
it was NOT a protest, but one of the laws arising >from the Nuremberg
laws stated that starting on August 17, 1938 every German Jew was
*** forced *** to add "Israel" or "Sara" as middle names to their names to make
their Jewishness obvious. These additional names were inserted into all
passports, identity cards and even restrospectively into birth
certificates - they were *** not *** their real names but names forced upon them
by the Nazi authorities - in the case of survivors these names were
removed again after the war. With kind regards

Fritz Neubauer, North Germany <fritz.neubauer@...>