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Burying Unnamed Babies and VERY Young Babies #general

Ricki L. Zunk <rickiz@...>
 

First I want to thank all of you lovely folks who responded to my
request. There were so many responses, that I can't possibly reply to
you all individually. So let me say here and now, Thank You All So
Very Much!

Here's what I learned >from everyone:

Yes, then and now, it is common practice to bury these babies in a
section all their own. Frequently, these burials are in a "special"
part of the cemetery designated specifically for the burial of
infants. Apparently it is a "good move" for the business of burials,
because the interred bodies are so small that they can fit more of
them in a smaller area. I know it sounds crass to even mention such
things, but cemeteries are, after all, businesses.

Sometimes, named babies can and will be buried in family plots. If
the family has their own plot, this is not unusual, assuming that
there is room in the plot.

Sometimes, if the family belonged to a burial society, the baby might
be buried with the family and not with the other babies.

It would appear that most cemeteries had/have such specialized area.
There is not always a marker where the babies are buried, and IF there
is a specific and separate burial entry in the cemetery's ledgers, it
is not necessarily a required thing. City, county, and state laws
apparently vary, making the specifics of such entries vary. If a
burial permit was needed for a baby, there has to be a record. If
not, you likely won't find any paperwork. Cemeteries, like other
businesses don't like unnecessary paperwork. Sad but true.

Hope that that helps those of you who wanted to know what I've
learned. I know that several detailed replies to my post were also
sent to the list in general. Put that information plus this
information together, and you probably have the general answers you
need.

Good Luck to you all,
Ricki Zunk
Kendall, FL

MODERATOR NOTE: Since the original question has been
answered satisfactorily, we can now close this thread.
Anyone with further comments, please continue privately.
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Burying Unnamed Babies and VERY Young Babies #general

Ricki L. Zunk <rickiz@...>
 

First I want to thank all of you lovely folks who responded to my
request. There were so many responses, that I can't possibly reply to
you all individually. So let me say here and now, Thank You All So
Very Much!

Here's what I learned >from everyone:

Yes, then and now, it is common practice to bury these babies in a
section all their own. Frequently, these burials are in a "special"
part of the cemetery designated specifically for the burial of
infants. Apparently it is a "good move" for the business of burials,
because the interred bodies are so small that they can fit more of
them in a smaller area. I know it sounds crass to even mention such
things, but cemeteries are, after all, businesses.

Sometimes, named babies can and will be buried in family plots. If
the family has their own plot, this is not unusual, assuming that
there is room in the plot.

Sometimes, if the family belonged to a burial society, the baby might
be buried with the family and not with the other babies.

It would appear that most cemeteries had/have such specialized area.
There is not always a marker where the babies are buried, and IF there
is a specific and separate burial entry in the cemetery's ledgers, it
is not necessarily a required thing. City, county, and state laws
apparently vary, making the specifics of such entries vary. If a
burial permit was needed for a baby, there has to be a record. If
not, you likely won't find any paperwork. Cemeteries, like other
businesses don't like unnecessary paperwork. Sad but true.

Hope that that helps those of you who wanted to know what I've
learned. I know that several detailed replies to my post were also
sent to the list in general. Put that information plus this
information together, and you probably have the general answers you
need.

Good Luck to you all,
Ricki Zunk
Kendall, FL

MODERATOR NOTE: Since the original question has been
answered satisfactorily, we can now close this thread.
Anyone with further comments, please continue privately.
Re: Don't place too much reliance on ONS! #general

Harry Dodsworth <af877@...>
 

I think Naidia Woolf is being unkind is criticising GRO for not
finding her relatives when she gave them the wrong names/dates :-)
There are errors in the GRO records. The indexes were prepared
from data submitted by district registrars and certainly there are
omissions and transcription errors. There is actually a book written
about them, Comedy of Errors? but presently out of print.
The 1881 transcription of the census of mainland Britain is a
valuable tool but has many errors. These may come >from the original
enumeration or subsequent transcriptions. Ages are notoriously
inaccurate.

Her advice to do your own research is excellent. More fun to find
the ancestor and you are more likely to spot someone of the same
name.
I find references in the GRO BMD indexes (St. Catherine's indexes)
and then order the certificates directly >from ONS in Southport.
This is more convenient if you are ordering certificates registered
in different offices although slightly more expensive. Also ONS take
credit cards and many local offices don't. Both ONS and local offices
are backlogged with requests for certificates for genealogy.
All local offices do not use the same procedures although the
centralized British system is much easier to use than the patchwork
US system.

Birmingham Reference Library is excellent; I had a day there two
weeks ago and found unexpected information on several lines in books
on the open shelves, and I have no family >from Birmingham!

Harry Dodsworth Ottawa Ontario Canada af877@...
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Don't place too much reliance on ONS! #general

Harry Dodsworth <af877@...>
 

I think Naidia Woolf is being unkind is criticising GRO for not
finding her relatives when she gave them the wrong names/dates :-)
There are errors in the GRO records. The indexes were prepared
from data submitted by district registrars and certainly there are
omissions and transcription errors. There is actually a book written
about them, Comedy of Errors? but presently out of print.
The 1881 transcription of the census of mainland Britain is a
valuable tool but has many errors. These may come >from the original
enumeration or subsequent transcriptions. Ages are notoriously
inaccurate.

Her advice to do your own research is excellent. More fun to find
the ancestor and you are more likely to spot someone of the same
name.
I find references in the GRO BMD indexes (St. Catherine's indexes)
and then order the certificates directly >from ONS in Southport.
This is more convenient if you are ordering certificates registered
in different offices although slightly more expensive. Also ONS take
credit cards and many local offices don't. Both ONS and local offices
are backlogged with requests for certificates for genealogy.
All local offices do not use the same procedures although the
centralized British system is much easier to use than the patchwork
US system.

Birmingham Reference Library is excellent; I had a day there two
weeks ago and found unexpected information on several lines in books
on the open shelves, and I have no family >from Birmingham!

Harry Dodsworth Ottawa Ontario Canada af877@...
Thank you #general

pd Fisher <fisherpaul@...>
 

A big thank you to everyone who replied about my grandparents portraits.

The consensus is yes, they are wedding portraits.

Paul Fisher
Minneapolis, Minnesota
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Thank you #general

pd Fisher <fisherpaul@...>
 

A big thank you to everyone who replied about my grandparents portraits.

The consensus is yes, they are wedding portraits.

Paul Fisher
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Family Finder Changes #latvia

Arlene Beare <arl@...>
 

I am posting this for Carol Skydell

Subject: To all those registered in JewishGen Family Finder (JGFF):

In order to insure the maximum degree of privacy possible in a
public website, JewishGen has redesigned the submission process
for those who enter their surnames/towns of interest into the
JewishGen Family Finder (JGFF). New entrants using the ENTER
feature will find all this spelled out. JewishGenners who have
already entered their data will be able to make the changes in
the MODIFY mode.
First, we are offering the following choices on how you want
your contact address to be displayed. You simply select
whichever format you prefer, choosing >from the following three
options:
1. Display my researcher code only (provides maximum privacy
through a protected e-mail contact system, similar to that
used with the Family Tree of the Jewish People (FTJP)).
This is a new feature.
2. Display my name and e-mail address (insures privacy to a
degree).
3. Display my name, e-mail address, and complete postal
address (least degree of privacy).
Further, since JewishGen reserves the right to contact JGFF
submitters with information regarding projects or programs which
may enhance individual research, we are offering the following
for how you want your JGFF information shared:
1. Share my details with JewishGen partnered or hosted
organizations which might benefit my research.
(This option has been pre-selected on your behalf)
You are free to change the selection to:
2. DO NOT share my details with any other organization.
All of the above are examples of what you will find if you click
on ENTER as a brand new entrant to the JGFF, or under MODIFY if
you are already listed in the JGFF. You must go to the JGFF to
effect these changes:
<http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff>.
Those using the MODIFY system will need to be prepared with
their Researcher Code and Password in order to make any
changes.
If you have forgotten your Researcher Code, go to the JGFF at
<http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff> and click on SEARCH. Type in
any surname or town that you have previously listed in the
database, and you can then scroll through the search results.
When you find your name listed, you will see your JGFF
Researcher Code in parenthesis right next to your name. Please
write it down and consider taping it right onto your computer.
For more information, see
<http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff/jgff-faq.html#q5.10>.
If you have forgotten your password, send an e-mail to
<password@...>, providing your full name,
address and Researcher Code. When you get your password by
return e-mail, please write it down as well, , especially if it
is a
series of numbers. When you go into MODIFY, it's a good idea to
modify your password >from a number to a word that you will
remember.
Once in the MODIFY screen, enter your Researcher Code and
Password, and select the first option, "Modify Researcher
Information (Your Name/Address/Password/Display)", and you will
be taken to the page that has all the information that you've
entered regarding your name/address/password/display. Make
whatever changes you like and then be sure to click on the
button that says "Update Researcher Details"
If you need help please send a message explaining the problem to
<techsupport@...>.
Our final effort at insuring that the JGFF is not used by
professionals soliciting research for a fee or making any
attempt to sell you information or products, is to provide a
help desk for you to contact should you be approached by anyone
with a product or a service for sale. Please address all
instances of abuse to <JGFFabuse@...> enclosing a copy
of whatever message you have received that you consider to be an
invasion of your privacy.
For more information about the JewishGen Family Finder, see
the "JGFF FAQ" at <http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff/jgff-faq.html>.
Please, do not send your desired changes to me. YOU ARE
EXPECTED TO MANAGE THIS YOURSELF and JewishGen has no
secretarial staff to make changes for you.
Many thanks for your anticipated cooperation.
Carol Skydell
JewishGen Operations
Latvia SIG #Latvia Family Finder Changes #latvia

Arlene Beare <arl@...>
 

I am posting this for Carol Skydell

Subject: To all those registered in JewishGen Family Finder (JGFF):

In order to insure the maximum degree of privacy possible in a
public website, JewishGen has redesigned the submission process
for those who enter their surnames/towns of interest into the
JewishGen Family Finder (JGFF). New entrants using the ENTER
feature will find all this spelled out. JewishGenners who have
already entered their data will be able to make the changes in
the MODIFY mode.
First, we are offering the following choices on how you want
your contact address to be displayed. You simply select
whichever format you prefer, choosing >from the following three
options:
1. Display my researcher code only (provides maximum privacy
through a protected e-mail contact system, similar to that
used with the Family Tree of the Jewish People (FTJP)).
This is a new feature.
2. Display my name and e-mail address (insures privacy to a
degree).
3. Display my name, e-mail address, and complete postal
address (least degree of privacy).
Further, since JewishGen reserves the right to contact JGFF
submitters with information regarding projects or programs which
may enhance individual research, we are offering the following
for how you want your JGFF information shared:
1. Share my details with JewishGen partnered or hosted
organizations which might benefit my research.
(This option has been pre-selected on your behalf)
You are free to change the selection to:
2. DO NOT share my details with any other organization.
All of the above are examples of what you will find if you click
on ENTER as a brand new entrant to the JGFF, or under MODIFY if
you are already listed in the JGFF. You must go to the JGFF to
effect these changes:
<http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff>.
Those using the MODIFY system will need to be prepared with
their Researcher Code and Password in order to make any
changes.
If you have forgotten your Researcher Code, go to the JGFF at
<http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff> and click on SEARCH. Type in
any surname or town that you have previously listed in the
database, and you can then scroll through the search results.
When you find your name listed, you will see your JGFF
Researcher Code in parenthesis right next to your name. Please
write it down and consider taping it right onto your computer.
For more information, see
<http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff/jgff-faq.html#q5.10>.
If you have forgotten your password, send an e-mail to
<password@...>, providing your full name,
address and Researcher Code. When you get your password by
return e-mail, please write it down as well, , especially if it
is a
series of numbers. When you go into MODIFY, it's a good idea to
modify your password >from a number to a word that you will
remember.
Once in the MODIFY screen, enter your Researcher Code and
Password, and select the first option, "Modify Researcher
Information (Your Name/Address/Password/Display)", and you will
be taken to the page that has all the information that you've
entered regarding your name/address/password/display. Make
whatever changes you like and then be sure to click on the
button that says "Update Researcher Details"
If you need help please send a message explaining the problem to
<techsupport@...>.
Our final effort at insuring that the JGFF is not used by
professionals soliciting research for a fee or making any
attempt to sell you information or products, is to provide a
help desk for you to contact should you be approached by anyone
with a product or a service for sale. Please address all
instances of abuse to <JGFFabuse@...> enclosing a copy
of whatever message you have received that you consider to be an
invasion of your privacy.
For more information about the JewishGen Family Finder, see
the "JGFF FAQ" at <http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff/jgff-faq.html>.
Please, do not send your desired changes to me. YOU ARE
EXPECTED TO MANAGE THIS YOURSELF and JewishGen has no
secretarial staff to make changes for you.
Many thanks for your anticipated cooperation.
Carol Skydell
JewishGen Operations
family searches #latvia

Martha Lev-Zion <martha@...>
 


Searching: FAGIN (Dvinsk); KOTZEN (Riga); KREIGER (Riga).
I hope that Eric Ellman and others will check out our All Latvia Database, as I
recall seeing all the names you mention above in our various databases. If some
names are not up yet, they may be in the databases that we are working on presently
and which will go up in the near future.

Martha Lev-Zion
Steering committee for the Courland Research Group
Latvia SIG #Latvia family searches #latvia

Martha Lev-Zion <martha@...>
 


Searching: FAGIN (Dvinsk); KOTZEN (Riga); KREIGER (Riga).
I hope that Eric Ellman and others will check out our All Latvia Database, as I
recall seeing all the names you mention above in our various databases. If some
names are not up yet, they may be in the databases that we are working on presently
and which will go up in the near future.

Martha Lev-Zion
Steering committee for the Courland Research Group
Providing Genealogical information #general

ronald Wallace
 

I applaud Dick Plotz' comments about the paranoia that seems to be among
some of us about disclosing genealogical information about others. Yes
indeed, there are some security risks, in this unfortuantely criminal world
in which we live, but what is the basis of genealogy? What has held us as a
religion together for so many many generations. FAMILY is the one pillar
that has maintained Judaism through the ages in spite of all the obstacles
and hostility we have faced.

In this modern age, where assimilation is a fact of life, and where facts
about the past become faded and harder and harder to recall, we must
maintain what we can. What are we genealogists doing what we do for? I don't
know about others of my generation (born in the 40's), but I have only one
motivation, and that is to provide my children and their children with a
sense of heritage, and where they all come from, and some of the history
behind that heritage.

As a person of German origin married to someone of joint Dutch/English
heritage, the history is as diverse as it can be, and any attempt to prevent
us >from pursuing this goal would be most unfortunate. It is sad indeed, that
even cousins seem reluctant to assist in this goal. I feel sorry for them,
as they will lose everything in the long run.

I hope any restrictions, never come to pass.

Ronald Wallace

Mendham, NJ
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Providing Genealogical information #general

ronald Wallace
 

I applaud Dick Plotz' comments about the paranoia that seems to be among
some of us about disclosing genealogical information about others. Yes
indeed, there are some security risks, in this unfortuantely criminal world
in which we live, but what is the basis of genealogy? What has held us as a
religion together for so many many generations. FAMILY is the one pillar
that has maintained Judaism through the ages in spite of all the obstacles
and hostility we have faced.

In this modern age, where assimilation is a fact of life, and where facts
about the past become faded and harder and harder to recall, we must
maintain what we can. What are we genealogists doing what we do for? I don't
know about others of my generation (born in the 40's), but I have only one
motivation, and that is to provide my children and their children with a
sense of heritage, and where they all come from, and some of the history
behind that heritage.

As a person of German origin married to someone of joint Dutch/English
heritage, the history is as diverse as it can be, and any attempt to prevent
us >from pursuing this goal would be most unfortunate. It is sad indeed, that
even cousins seem reluctant to assist in this goal. I feel sorry for them,
as they will lose everything in the long run.

I hope any restrictions, never come to pass.

Ronald Wallace

Mendham, NJ
Genealogical Protocol #general

Dorothy Kohanski <dkohanski@...>
 

I must agree with cousin Dick Plotz that we should not impede the free
flow of information. (Where would _we_ have been, Dick, with our mutual
and growing trees, without living cousins?) Besides, information is so
readily available about almost anybody these days, that cutting off
genealogical information would not prevent the very real problem this
"Information Age" has created. Hopefully, the technological safeguards
will be found, without cutting out the free exchange of data that is so
helpful to us. On the other hand, mis-information, as was pointed out
by another genner, can be a serious genealogical headache to correct.
It is probably not possible to get everyone to follow common sense
rules, such as checking before hitting the "send" button. Too much to
expect >from human nature!
Dorothy Kohanski
Laguna Woods, CA
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Genealogical Protocol #general

Dorothy Kohanski <dkohanski@...>
 

I must agree with cousin Dick Plotz that we should not impede the free
flow of information. (Where would _we_ have been, Dick, with our mutual
and growing trees, without living cousins?) Besides, information is so
readily available about almost anybody these days, that cutting off
genealogical information would not prevent the very real problem this
"Information Age" has created. Hopefully, the technological safeguards
will be found, without cutting out the free exchange of data that is so
helpful to us. On the other hand, mis-information, as was pointed out
by another genner, can be a serious genealogical headache to correct.
It is probably not possible to get everyone to follow common sense
rules, such as checking before hitting the "send" button. Too much to
expect >from human nature!
Dorothy Kohanski
Laguna Woods, CA
Re: Mindy #general

Dr. Joseph M. Schwarcz, Dr. Ida C. Selavan <idayosef@...>
 

One theory is that the Jewish female name Mindl is based on
Mendl. Just as Mendl follows Menahem, i.e. Menahem Mendl, so
Mindl may derive >from Menuha.
Another theory is that all of these Mina names, Mindy, Minnie,
etc. come >from Wilhelmina.
Take your pick
Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Arad, Israel

Mindy Scheer wrote:


Mindy in Jewish would be Molca or Molka.

Some young American girls who liked that name have nicknamed
themselves Mindy instead of Melinda or Melissa.

Except for me, I am an original Mindy!

Mindy Scheer
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Mindy #general

Dr. Joseph M. Schwarcz, Dr. Ida C. Selavan <idayosef@...>
 

One theory is that the Jewish female name Mindl is based on
Mendl. Just as Mendl follows Menahem, i.e. Menahem Mendl, so
Mindl may derive >from Menuha.
Another theory is that all of these Mina names, Mindy, Minnie,
etc. come >from Wilhelmina.
Take your pick
Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Arad, Israel

Mindy Scheer wrote:


Mindy in Jewish would be Molca or Molka.

Some young American girls who liked that name have nicknamed
themselves Mindy instead of Melinda or Melissa.

Except for me, I am an original Mindy!

Mindy Scheer
Burial of unamed babies #general

M. Schejtman <mario_m@...>
 

Shalom

I have heard of a custom where a baby that was born dead or died before a
his brit, was buried together with an adult that passed away around the time
the baby died, so that he wil sort of "guard over him", and take his soul
with his up to heaven. the tomb then would only have a marker for the adult
as the child has no name.

Does this sound true? is this aJewish custom? Is it practised today as well?

Merav Schejtman
Jerusalem Israel

Searching:
DURLACHER -SW Germany, MICHAELIS, Halle & Hamburg Germany
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Burial of unamed babies #general

M. Schejtman <mario_m@...>
 

Shalom

I have heard of a custom where a baby that was born dead or died before a
his brit, was buried together with an adult that passed away around the time
the baby died, so that he wil sort of "guard over him", and take his soul
with his up to heaven. the tomb then would only have a marker for the adult
as the child has no name.

Does this sound true? is this aJewish custom? Is it practised today as well?

Merav Schejtman
Jerusalem Israel

Searching:
DURLACHER -SW Germany, MICHAELIS, Halle & Hamburg Germany
Re: Burial of unnamed babies #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 7/17/00 2:27:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gildak@... writes:

<< I also heard that it was the custom to bury
an infant together with the mother (I suppose the plot must have been bought
long before the mother died). >>

==That would have been when mother and child both died shortly after
childbirth.

Michael Bernet, New York
JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Burial of unnamed babies #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 7/17/00 2:27:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gildak@... writes:

<< I also heard that it was the custom to bury
an infant together with the mother (I suppose the plot must have been bought
long before the mother died). >>

==That would have been when mother and child both died shortly after
childbirth.

Michael Bernet, New York
579561 - 579580 of 670716