Date   

Re: Romantic relationships in the Old Country #general

Sally Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

And don't forget, Fiddler on the Roof aside, marriage was not about
romance. Marriages were usually arranged in the 19th century and
before; the 'engaged' might not have had any interest in sneaking away
to be alone.

Even in Fiddler on the Roof, the oldest daughter was promised to the
Widowed Butcher; she would never go hungry. That was more the way it
usually worked.

Sally Bruckheimer
Princeton, NJ


Re: Romantic relationships in the Old Country #general

joyweave
 

No one who has answered this seems to have picked up on what seems to me an
important question: could this even have been a "love match?" Marriages were
usually arranged by family members, often with the bride having no say in it.

Sex before marriage seems unlikely, though I've heard of situations where the
groom wanted proof that a bride could bear children before he'd marry her. On
the other hand, would he want a "ruined" bride?

How religious the families were could play a part in the amount of vigilence
they'd have provided of the couple.

And I'd think the bride would have been at least 15. Ages on documents tend to
be kind of "slippery" so don't take it as written in stone.

Joy Weaver,
East Islip, NY USA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Romantic relationships in the Old Country #general

Sally Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

And don't forget, Fiddler on the Roof aside, marriage was not about
romance. Marriages were usually arranged in the 19th century and
before; the 'engaged' might not have had any interest in sneaking away
to be alone.

Even in Fiddler on the Roof, the oldest daughter was promised to the
Widowed Butcher; she would never go hungry. That was more the way it
usually worked.

Sally Bruckheimer
Princeton, NJ


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Romantic relationships in the Old Country #general

joyweave
 

No one who has answered this seems to have picked up on what seems to me an
important question: could this even have been a "love match?" Marriages were
usually arranged by family members, often with the bride having no say in it.

Sex before marriage seems unlikely, though I've heard of situations where the
groom wanted proof that a bride could bear children before he'd marry her. On
the other hand, would he want a "ruined" bride?

How religious the families were could play a part in the amount of vigilence
they'd have provided of the couple.

And I'd think the bride would have been at least 15. Ages on documents tend to
be kind of "slippery" so don't take it as written in stone.

Joy Weaver,
East Islip, NY USA


Re: Romantic relationships in the Old Country #general

Ann Rabinowitz <annrab@...>
 

I thought the poster's use of the charming term "romantic relationships" a
bit confusing to describe her great grandparent's "issues". I was
wondering if she meant that she thought that her great grandparents might
have had sexual relations as teenagers and had to marry.

Customs varied >from country to country in different centuries; however,
basically, people remained the same, especially if the poster is referring
to illicit sexual relations. These have occurred since time immemorial no
matter what the age of the individuals.

However, if the poster is referring to community marriage customs or norms,
that is a bit different. Many times, the groom generally became betrothed
or engaged and this could have occurred as young as nine years of age, but
usually after his bar mitzvah. The marriage followed a number of years
later when he had perhaps finished his religious or other education and the
bride was old enough to bear children.

The groom could have been sent to live or board with the bride's family
during his training or education. Originally, he could have been matched
with one of the daughters in the family.

There is a story of one of my relatives who was betrothed quite early and
then married when he had just turned 16 in Iasi, Rumania. When the wedding
was over, the groom went to climb on the wagon to go home with his family
and was astonished to find that he had to stay with his bride and her
family, especially as this was the first time he had met her. Needless to
say, he got the hang of things eventually and the couple lived happily until
she died after her first child.

During this same time period, my grandparents were betrothed when my
grandfather was 15 and my grandmother was 13. They were married when she
was 15 and he was 17 and they started having their family of 10 children
right away. They were typical of their contemporaries in the
Drohobych/Borislav, Ukraine area in the 1880's-1890's.

I know that in the pre-1920's in northeastern Lithuania many couples did not
marry until they were in their twenties and late twenties at that.

In the shtetl of Kupiskis, for instance, 736 marriages were registered
between 1870 and 1914. Of these marriages, which ranged >from 17 to 85 years
of age, the majority were in their 20's. This also was the case in the
post-1920's marriages.

The nearby shtetl of Rokiskis had 194 marriages between the years 1874-1896,
and these ranged >from ages 16-50. The marriages in that shtetl
predominantly occurred when the couples were in their 20's.

This did not mean that there were those who chose to marry earlier and were
not registered officially. All this has been discussed previously and is
found in the JewishGen Archives.

The researcher of these things can easily look at both the marriage and
birth records in their families if they exist and check out the dates. One
may find that the marriage date is less than nine months >from the birth of
the first child, although this can be sometimes explained by a lack of
accuracy in registering either the marriage or birth.

Ann Rabinowitz
annrab@bellsouth.net


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Romantic relationships in the Old Country #general

Ann Rabinowitz <annrab@...>
 

I thought the poster's use of the charming term "romantic relationships" a
bit confusing to describe her great grandparent's "issues". I was
wondering if she meant that she thought that her great grandparents might
have had sexual relations as teenagers and had to marry.

Customs varied >from country to country in different centuries; however,
basically, people remained the same, especially if the poster is referring
to illicit sexual relations. These have occurred since time immemorial no
matter what the age of the individuals.

However, if the poster is referring to community marriage customs or norms,
that is a bit different. Many times, the groom generally became betrothed
or engaged and this could have occurred as young as nine years of age, but
usually after his bar mitzvah. The marriage followed a number of years
later when he had perhaps finished his religious or other education and the
bride was old enough to bear children.

The groom could have been sent to live or board with the bride's family
during his training or education. Originally, he could have been matched
with one of the daughters in the family.

There is a story of one of my relatives who was betrothed quite early and
then married when he had just turned 16 in Iasi, Rumania. When the wedding
was over, the groom went to climb on the wagon to go home with his family
and was astonished to find that he had to stay with his bride and her
family, especially as this was the first time he had met her. Needless to
say, he got the hang of things eventually and the couple lived happily until
she died after her first child.

During this same time period, my grandparents were betrothed when my
grandfather was 15 and my grandmother was 13. They were married when she
was 15 and he was 17 and they started having their family of 10 children
right away. They were typical of their contemporaries in the
Drohobych/Borislav, Ukraine area in the 1880's-1890's.

I know that in the pre-1920's in northeastern Lithuania many couples did not
marry until they were in their twenties and late twenties at that.

In the shtetl of Kupiskis, for instance, 736 marriages were registered
between 1870 and 1914. Of these marriages, which ranged >from 17 to 85 years
of age, the majority were in their 20's. This also was the case in the
post-1920's marriages.

The nearby shtetl of Rokiskis had 194 marriages between the years 1874-1896,
and these ranged >from ages 16-50. The marriages in that shtetl
predominantly occurred when the couples were in their 20's.

This did not mean that there were those who chose to marry earlier and were
not registered officially. All this has been discussed previously and is
found in the JewishGen Archives.

The researcher of these things can easily look at both the marriage and
birth records in their families if they exist and check out the dates. One
may find that the marriage date is less than nine months >from the birth of
the first child, although this can be sometimes explained by a lack of
accuracy in registering either the marriage or birth.

Ann Rabinowitz
annrab@bellsouth.net


Re: Romantic relationships in the Old Country #general

Jake Goldstein
 

At 12:11 AM 4/21/2007, Mimi Katz wrote:
How did you determine that she was 12 or 13? I've found that most of our
ancestors had no idea how old they were. Ages that we deduce for the same
person vary >from record to record. So, unless you've actually got a copy of
her birth record that proves her age, she really could have been several
years older when she got married.
Birth records are not necessarily accurate either. Months or years
could go by before a birth was registered. It is not unusual to
find 2-3 consecutive birth registrations of siblings who weren't
twins.

Jake Goldstein
Boston, Mass., USA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Romantic relationships in the Old Country #general

Jake Goldstein
 

At 12:11 AM 4/21/2007, Mimi Katz wrote:
How did you determine that she was 12 or 13? I've found that most of our
ancestors had no idea how old they were. Ages that we deduce for the same
person vary >from record to record. So, unless you've actually got a copy of
her birth record that proves her age, she really could have been several
years older when she got married.
Birth records are not necessarily accurate either. Months or years
could go by before a birth was registered. It is not unusual to
find 2-3 consecutive birth registrations of siblings who weren't
twins.

Jake Goldstein
Boston, Mass., USA


GerSIG at SLC 2007 latest news #germany

JewishGen German Research Division Coordinator
 

17 members of The German Jewish Special Interest Group have already
signed up to attend our Luncheon meeting on Monday, July 16th. At the
Luncheon and also at a separate GerSIG business meeting on the same
day we will discuss GerSIG sponsored research projects.

In the near future GerSIG plans to announce an important breakthrough
in our effort to assist persons and groups who are creating data
collections which could be added to the GerSIG or JewishGen websites.

This news will make clear that our meetings at the SLC 2007 Conference
will be especially significant.

To find Conference lectures by GerSIG members go to the SLC 2007 website
schedule page at:
http://www.eshow2000.com/IAJGS/conference_program.cfm

Select "Western European Research" in the Session Topic drop down list.

For Luncheon information and sign up the URL is:
http://www.eshow2000.com/IAJGS/sig_bof.cfm

John Paul Lowens, NY GerSIG Coordinator gersig@aol.com


German SIG #Germany GerSIG at SLC 2007 latest news #germany

JewishGen German Research Division Coordinator
 

17 members of The German Jewish Special Interest Group have already
signed up to attend our Luncheon meeting on Monday, July 16th. At the
Luncheon and also at a separate GerSIG business meeting on the same
day we will discuss GerSIG sponsored research projects.

In the near future GerSIG plans to announce an important breakthrough
in our effort to assist persons and groups who are creating data
collections which could be added to the GerSIG or JewishGen websites.

This news will make clear that our meetings at the SLC 2007 Conference
will be especially significant.

To find Conference lectures by GerSIG members go to the SLC 2007 website
schedule page at:
http://www.eshow2000.com/IAJGS/conference_program.cfm

Select "Western European Research" in the Session Topic drop down list.

For Luncheon information and sign up the URL is:
http://www.eshow2000.com/IAJGS/sig_bof.cfm

John Paul Lowens, NY GerSIG Coordinator gersig@aol.com


Re: Romantic relationships in the Old Country #general

Mimi Katz <Genealogist@...>
 

They got married when she was 12 or 13. Was this normal in small
Ukrainian
villages? In Odessa?
How did you determine that she was 12 or 13? I've found that most of our
ancestors had no idea how old they were. Ages that we deduce for the same
person vary >from record to record. So, unless you've actually got a copy of
her birth record that proves her age, she really could have been several
years older when she got married.

Mimi Katz, Chicago


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Romantic relationships in the Old Country #general

Mimi Katz <Genealogist@...>
 

They got married when she was 12 or 13. Was this normal in small
Ukrainian
villages? In Odessa?
How did you determine that she was 12 or 13? I've found that most of our
ancestors had no idea how old they were. Ages that we deduce for the same
person vary >from record to record. So, unless you've actually got a copy of
her birth record that proves her age, she really could have been several
years older when she got married.

Mimi Katz, Chicago


young marriage #general

Herbert Lazerow
 

my great-grandparents, ... got married when she was 12 or 13. Was
this normal in small Ukrainian
villages? In Odessa?
Absolutely not. Of more than 3,000 marriages in Nezhin
Ukraine 1860-1918, none purported to be between persons less than 16 years old.
No man was married under age 18 during this time. Around
1.5% of the women first married at age 16 in the 1860s and 1890s, and
less than 1% in the other decades. 10.4% of the women first married
at age 17 in the 1860s; 4.5% in the 1870s; and 2% or less in each
decade thereafter.
It is possible that your grandparents were engaged at a
young age. I have the impression that this occurred, and engagement
in those days might have been so serious a contractual arrangement
that it required a divorce to dissolve; there is one 1880s divorce
that states that the woman was 13, and I could find no record of her
having previously married in that town. (She might have married
elsewhere.) I do not believe that engagement in those days came with
sleeping privileges.
Bert
Herbert Lazerow
San Diego CA
E-mail: lazer@sandiego.edu


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen young marriage #general

Herbert Lazerow
 

my great-grandparents, ... got married when she was 12 or 13. Was
this normal in small Ukrainian
villages? In Odessa?
Absolutely not. Of more than 3,000 marriages in Nezhin
Ukraine 1860-1918, none purported to be between persons less than 16 years old.
No man was married under age 18 during this time. Around
1.5% of the women first married at age 16 in the 1860s and 1890s, and
less than 1% in the other decades. 10.4% of the women first married
at age 17 in the 1860s; 4.5% in the 1870s; and 2% or less in each
decade thereafter.
It is possible that your grandparents were engaged at a
young age. I have the impression that this occurred, and engagement
in those days might have been so serious a contractual arrangement
that it required a divorce to dissolve; there is one 1880s divorce
that states that the woman was 13, and I could find no record of her
having previously married in that town. (She might have married
elsewhere.) I do not believe that engagement in those days came with
sleeping privileges.
Bert
Herbert Lazerow
San Diego CA
E-mail: lazer@sandiego.edu


Re: Romantic relationships in the Old Country #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

MarilWebb@aol.com writes:

I am trying to piece together a likely scenario for my great-grandparents,
who had what we would now call "issues."

They got married when she was 12 or 13. Was this normal in small Ukrainian
villages? In Odessa?

And were they likely to have sex before they married?
At 12 or 13? It's very unlikely that girls that age would have much interest
in sex. Note that
1) puberty in females tended to be several years later in those times
than is common nowadays, probably mainly for nutritional reasons.
2) there was not today's constant bombardment of sexuality in popular
culture and media.
--
Robert Israel israel@math.MyUniversitysInitials.ca
University of British Columbia Vancouver, BC, Canada


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Romantic relationships in the Old Country #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

MarilWebb@aol.com writes:

I am trying to piece together a likely scenario for my great-grandparents,
who had what we would now call "issues."

They got married when she was 12 or 13. Was this normal in small Ukrainian
villages? In Odessa?

And were they likely to have sex before they married?
At 12 or 13? It's very unlikely that girls that age would have much interest
in sex. Note that
1) puberty in females tended to be several years later in those times
than is common nowadays, probably mainly for nutritional reasons.
2) there was not today's constant bombardment of sexuality in popular
culture and media.
--
Robert Israel israel@math.MyUniversitysInitials.ca
University of British Columbia Vancouver, BC, Canada


Re: Camera for Photographing Microfilm #general

Hilary Henkin
 

Dear Janet,
I'm not going to recommend a specific make and model of digital
camera; there are dozens of cameras available that will do a great job for you.

However, some general recommendations are useful.

You don't need a top-of-the-line, zillion-megapixel camera. The high
megapixel cameras are useful if you plan to enlarge the final images
to 9 x 12 or poster or mural, but not as important if you're only
doing snapshot-size prints, and downright annoying if you're planning
to use them on the computer or web only. They create very large file
sizes which must be reduced to put on a website, or send in groups to
relatives.

I have two digital cameras: One with *less than* one megapixel which
shoots onto 3 1/4" floppy disks, and the other about two
megapixels. I've used both to take photos of microfilms with
satisfactory results.

You do want one which has a zoom feature, and probably one which has
a LCD display (teeny screen) to see what you're shooting.

And you want one which will let you get fairly close to the
subject. Mine are good to about 2', and I get blurry images if I'm
closer than that. Also be sure you can get that close and get a full
16"x16" or 18"x18" image, which is about the size of a microfilm image.

And of course, you want one which will let you turn off the flash if
you choose.

The hints for best images:
1) Get as perpendicular to the image as you can. You'll probably
want to stand up, and hold the camera very near the lens of the
microfilm viewer. For the first couple of images, take the photo,
then switch the camera to "Play" or "View" and look at your
image. If you can get above the camera and look at the screen to
frame your image, even better.

2) Turn off the flash.

3) Keep a log of the photos you take. Write down all the info on
the image while you're at the viewer. If you get home and can't read
all the info and don't have the notes, you'll be disappointed.

4) If you can, bring an extra memory card and camera battery. (You
can buy extras and battery chargers at a well-known auction website.)

5) You might want to bring along a piece of bright yellow
paper. Sometimes a faint image can be more readable in front of
yellow, which is actually higher contract than white (think of the
yellow fire engines now in use). Any photo editing software can
convert that color photo to black-and-white, although I haven't
tested, to see if the yellow paper goes to white, or to grey.

6) Do plan to review each image in your photo editing software
later. You can crop, rotate, adjust the brightness and contrast,
etc. to save the best image possible. This process will also let you
give each image a better name than the camera does. . . .

Hilary Henkin
Los Angeles, Calif.


Researching:
Mogilev - BERLIN; BELIISKI; HENKIN - GENKIN; MESCENOKOV; POZ - POZE
Ekaterinoslav - KATZ; LAPIDUS; LAVROTIN - LAVRUTIN -
AVRUTIN; PESACHINSKY; SHIMERNITSKY; STEINHART
Roumania: DONNENFIELD; DOLLINGER; RINCOVER - HARINCOVER; WISENTHAL
Harbin, China: FELDMAN; PENZNER; SREBERK - SCHRIEBER;
Lublin, Poland: KATZ


help reading name and place from ship manifest #general

Bruce Dumes <brucedumes@...>
 

Like the subject says, I'm hoping someone can help decipher the name and
place on this clip >from a ship manifest.

http://dumes.net/ChanaDanskerBrother.jpg

They came >from Russia.

The entire page, if that helps, is here:

http://dumes.net/ChanaDanskerShipManifest.jpeg

Many thanks!

Bruce Dumes
Los Angeles

Researching:
DUMES/DUMESH >from Viski, Latvia
NOWOSELOK >from Viski, Latvia

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Camera for Photographing Microfilm #general

Hilary Henkin
 

Dear Janet,
I'm not going to recommend a specific make and model of digital
camera; there are dozens of cameras available that will do a great job for you.

However, some general recommendations are useful.

You don't need a top-of-the-line, zillion-megapixel camera. The high
megapixel cameras are useful if you plan to enlarge the final images
to 9 x 12 or poster or mural, but not as important if you're only
doing snapshot-size prints, and downright annoying if you're planning
to use them on the computer or web only. They create very large file
sizes which must be reduced to put on a website, or send in groups to
relatives.

I have two digital cameras: One with *less than* one megapixel which
shoots onto 3 1/4" floppy disks, and the other about two
megapixels. I've used both to take photos of microfilms with
satisfactory results.

You do want one which has a zoom feature, and probably one which has
a LCD display (teeny screen) to see what you're shooting.

And you want one which will let you get fairly close to the
subject. Mine are good to about 2', and I get blurry images if I'm
closer than that. Also be sure you can get that close and get a full
16"x16" or 18"x18" image, which is about the size of a microfilm image.

And of course, you want one which will let you turn off the flash if
you choose.

The hints for best images:
1) Get as perpendicular to the image as you can. You'll probably
want to stand up, and hold the camera very near the lens of the
microfilm viewer. For the first couple of images, take the photo,
then switch the camera to "Play" or "View" and look at your
image. If you can get above the camera and look at the screen to
frame your image, even better.

2) Turn off the flash.

3) Keep a log of the photos you take. Write down all the info on
the image while you're at the viewer. If you get home and can't read
all the info and don't have the notes, you'll be disappointed.

4) If you can, bring an extra memory card and camera battery. (You
can buy extras and battery chargers at a well-known auction website.)

5) You might want to bring along a piece of bright yellow
paper. Sometimes a faint image can be more readable in front of
yellow, which is actually higher contract than white (think of the
yellow fire engines now in use). Any photo editing software can
convert that color photo to black-and-white, although I haven't
tested, to see if the yellow paper goes to white, or to grey.

6) Do plan to review each image in your photo editing software
later. You can crop, rotate, adjust the brightness and contrast,
etc. to save the best image possible. This process will also let you
give each image a better name than the camera does. . . .

Hilary Henkin
Los Angeles, Calif.


Researching:
Mogilev - BERLIN; BELIISKI; HENKIN - GENKIN; MESCENOKOV; POZ - POZE
Ekaterinoslav - KATZ; LAPIDUS; LAVROTIN - LAVRUTIN -
AVRUTIN; PESACHINSKY; SHIMERNITSKY; STEINHART
Roumania: DONNENFIELD; DOLLINGER; RINCOVER - HARINCOVER; WISENTHAL
Harbin, China: FELDMAN; PENZNER; SREBERK - SCHRIEBER;
Lublin, Poland: KATZ


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen help reading name and place from ship manifest #general

Bruce Dumes <brucedumes@...>
 

Like the subject says, I'm hoping someone can help decipher the name and
place on this clip >from a ship manifest.

http://dumes.net/ChanaDanskerBrother.jpg

They came >from Russia.

The entire page, if that helps, is here:

http://dumes.net/ChanaDanskerShipManifest.jpeg

Many thanks!

Bruce Dumes
Los Angeles

Researching:
DUMES/DUMESH >from Viski, Latvia
NOWOSELOK >from Viski, Latvia

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately.