Date   

Re: England to Russia (reverse migration did happen) #general

Wegner, Peter
 

Dear Michael and JGenners,

I can’t help noticing that in the ongoing discussion of whether many Jews
returned >from England to Russia or Poland because “life had been better there,”
the time period of the anecdotes seems to be limited to post-1900.
There are always individual immigrants who cannot adjust culturally, or cannot
make it economically, in a new country; so there are always isolated cases of
returnees. But the original query, namely whether large numbers of Jews
returned because life was more attractive back in the “old country,” seems
to ignore general historical knowledge, that for the vast majority it was
never better for Jews in Russia than in England -- certainly not since the
readmission of Jews to England back in 1656! While tolerance is obviously a
relative matter, it is easy to show that throughout the 17th-19th centuries
no European country was more tolerant than England towards the Jews; I am
constantly astonished at the lack of awareness of that fact among American
Jews. How can one even begin to compare the largely social discrimination
towards Jews (and other Europeans for that matter) that characterized my native
land throughout those centuries (and will be equally familiar as an American
phenomenon to anyone who has seen the Oscar-winning film “Gentleman’s
Agreement”) to the brutal massacres and pogroms that recurred periodically
in Russia and Poland during those centuries?
The questioner asked: “Was there a famine or some major occurrence that would
make people move to Russia >from other countries? Answer: No! “Was the
Russian government recruiting people to immigrate to Russia to boost the
numbers in the Russian army?” Answer: Recruitment >from abroad was not
necessary -- the Czars simply drafted whomever they wanted whenever they
wanted. And they made a special point of going after young Jews. One
reason our ancestors left Russia for the West was to avoid being kidnapped
by recruiting officers (in Yiddish, “Khappers”) and forced to serve for 25
years—which was deliberate Russian policy towards the Jews at certain
times.??” Were the Russian people more tolerant of Jews?” (More tolerant
than whom? The Nazis had not yet surfaced!) The documented history of the
pogroms, especially during the period of massive exodus of Jews >from Russian
and Poland between 1880 and1910, answers that question definitively!? It is
true that after 1917 some individual Jews (among others) did emigrate to the
new Soviet Union -- for totally misguided idealistic reasons. These left-wing
intellectuals included my husband’s Viennese Jewish parents, which is how he
managed to be born in Leningrad. (He and his mother had to escape after his
father was shot in one of Stalin’s purges in 1937; they came back to Vienna in
January 1938, just two months before the Anschluss—a classic example of “out
of the frying pan, into the fire” if ever there was one.) But, that
phenomenon aside, “reverse migration” to Russia did not occur in sufficient
numbers to give it that name.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@brown.edu

<< There are various stories of ancestors going back to the heim on holiday.
My gr-gr-grandmother took her youngest son back to her native shtetl in
Poland, also around 1913. She had come to London in 1899 with a number of
children & had some more there, so the son she took on her trip was
English-born. >>

Michael Bernet, New York


Photo identification Vienna and Canada #general

Fred Zimmak <Fred.Zimmak@...>
 

Dear Genners,

I wounder if you recognize some of the persons om those photos. Some of the
persons I know who they are, other I am unsure of.

Who are the two womans, Photo in Vienna about 1910:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=10424

Who is the woman on the photo? Vienna 1937
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=10425

Who are the couple to the right? Canada about 1964:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=10426

Please respond privatly: Fred.Zimmak@Comhem.se

Kind regards

Fred Zimmak / Sweden, Stockholm


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen RE: England to Russia (reverse migration did happen) #general

Wegner, Peter
 

Dear Michael and JGenners,

I can’t help noticing that in the ongoing discussion of whether many Jews
returned >from England to Russia or Poland because “life had been better there,”
the time period of the anecdotes seems to be limited to post-1900.
There are always individual immigrants who cannot adjust culturally, or cannot
make it economically, in a new country; so there are always isolated cases of
returnees. But the original query, namely whether large numbers of Jews
returned because life was more attractive back in the “old country,” seems
to ignore general historical knowledge, that for the vast majority it was
never better for Jews in Russia than in England -- certainly not since the
readmission of Jews to England back in 1656! While tolerance is obviously a
relative matter, it is easy to show that throughout the 17th-19th centuries
no European country was more tolerant than England towards the Jews; I am
constantly astonished at the lack of awareness of that fact among American
Jews. How can one even begin to compare the largely social discrimination
towards Jews (and other Europeans for that matter) that characterized my native
land throughout those centuries (and will be equally familiar as an American
phenomenon to anyone who has seen the Oscar-winning film “Gentleman’s
Agreement”) to the brutal massacres and pogroms that recurred periodically
in Russia and Poland during those centuries?
The questioner asked: “Was there a famine or some major occurrence that would
make people move to Russia >from other countries? Answer: No! “Was the
Russian government recruiting people to immigrate to Russia to boost the
numbers in the Russian army?” Answer: Recruitment >from abroad was not
necessary -- the Czars simply drafted whomever they wanted whenever they
wanted. And they made a special point of going after young Jews. One
reason our ancestors left Russia for the West was to avoid being kidnapped
by recruiting officers (in Yiddish, “Khappers”) and forced to serve for 25
years—which was deliberate Russian policy towards the Jews at certain
times.??” Were the Russian people more tolerant of Jews?” (More tolerant
than whom? The Nazis had not yet surfaced!) The documented history of the
pogroms, especially during the period of massive exodus of Jews >from Russian
and Poland between 1880 and1910, answers that question definitively!? It is
true that after 1917 some individual Jews (among others) did emigrate to the
new Soviet Union -- for totally misguided idealistic reasons. These left-wing
intellectuals included my husband’s Viennese Jewish parents, which is how he
managed to be born in Leningrad. (He and his mother had to escape after his
father was shot in one of Stalin’s purges in 1937; they came back to Vienna in
January 1938, just two months before the Anschluss—a classic example of “out
of the frying pan, into the fire” if ever there was one.) But, that
phenomenon aside, “reverse migration” to Russia did not occur in sufficient
numbers to give it that name.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@brown.edu

<< There are various stories of ancestors going back to the heim on holiday.
My gr-gr-grandmother took her youngest son back to her native shtetl in
Poland, also around 1913. She had come to London in 1899 with a number of
children & had some more there, so the son she took on her trip was
English-born. >>

Michael Bernet, New York


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Photo identification Vienna and Canada #general

Fred Zimmak <Fred.Zimmak@...>
 

Dear Genners,

I wounder if you recognize some of the persons om those photos. Some of the
persons I know who they are, other I am unsure of.

Who are the two womans, Photo in Vienna about 1910:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=10424

Who is the woman on the photo? Vienna 1937
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=10425

Who are the couple to the right? Canada about 1964:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=10426

Please respond privatly: Fred.Zimmak@Comhem.se

Kind regards

Fred Zimmak / Sweden, Stockholm


Russian state archives; archive research offer #general

Richard J. Astor <richardastor@...>
 

Genners into Russian history may be interested to check out the specific Russian
archives listed at the ArcheoBiblioBase site
http://www.iisg.nl/~abb/index.html (and see also
http://www.jewish-heritage.org/sea2.htm).

Jewish-relevant Russian state archives listed at ArcheoBiblioBase particularly
include (for example):-

(1) pre-Revolution: central highest-level judicial, penal, and political and
criminal investigatory agencies; Kingdom of Poland records; also various post-
Revolution stuff including some NKVD files and apparently all Gulag files:
This is ArcheoBiblioBase archive #B1 http://www.iisg.nl/~abb/abb_b1.html

(2) pre-Revolution Russian military history, specifically military records of
the Russian Empire, "highest, central, and local military administration and
military agencies of the Russian Empire >from the end of the seventeenth century
until March 1918": This is ArcheoBiblioBase archive #B4
http://www.iisg.nl/~abb/abb_b4.html

(3) stuff in the formerly top-secret Central State Special Archive (TsGOA
SSSR). "The so-called Special Archive (Osobyi arkhiv) was officially
established in March 1946 to house the archival materials of foreign origin
from many European countries that were captured by Soviet Army at the end of
World War II in Germany, Poland, and Czechoslovakia and brought back to
Moscow. The 870 fonds of captured records (as of 2000), comprise official
records of the Third Reich and personal papers of many Nazi leaders and
prominent public figures of the Nazi movement; records of the high state
agencies of other European countries, which had earlier been captured by
Nazi authorities; records of many non-govermental organizations, agencies,
and individuals throughout Europe, including those of Jewish and Masonic
groups, socialist parties and labor associations, newspapers and publishing
houses, student organizations, and business firms; and collections of unique
documentary materials of private and family origin. Later the archive also
acquired records of Soviet agencies dealing with prisoners of war and
displaced persons under the NKVD-MVD, namely voluminous complex of records
of agencies subordinated to the Main Administration for Affairs of Prisoners
of War and Internees (GUPVI, 1939-1960), including records of individual POW
camps, which contain personal files on individual foreign prisoners and
documentation on the burial of prisoners who died in the USSR."
This is ArcheoBiblioBase archive #B8 http://www.iisg.nl/~abb/abb_b8.html

(4) "All-Russian Cheka, the State Political Administration (GPU), the
Consolidated State Political Administration (OGPU), the People's
Commissariat (and subsequent Ministry) of State Security (NVKD/MVD), the
Committee on State Security of the USSR (KGB), and related or subservient
predecessor organs":
This is ArcheoBiblioBase archive #C6 http://www.iisg.nl/~abb/abb_c6.html.

Through London University's School of Slavonic & Eastern European Studies
(which I used to attend; http://www.ssees.ucl.ac.uk), I may be about to find
one or more researchers willing (for a fee plus expenses) to visit these
archives for me to look into a few things for my own gen research. If anyone
would like me to add their stuff to the list and be prepared to pay the
researcher's particular relevant fees and expenses, just let me know direct
to richardastor@astorlaw.com.

With the usual best wishes and commiserations to fellow Genners similarly
trying to reconstruct their destroyed families,

Richard J. Astor
richardastor@astorlaw.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Russian state archives; archive research offer #general

Richard J. Astor <richardastor@...>
 

Genners into Russian history may be interested to check out the specific Russian
archives listed at the ArcheoBiblioBase site
http://www.iisg.nl/~abb/index.html (and see also
http://www.jewish-heritage.org/sea2.htm).

Jewish-relevant Russian state archives listed at ArcheoBiblioBase particularly
include (for example):-

(1) pre-Revolution: central highest-level judicial, penal, and political and
criminal investigatory agencies; Kingdom of Poland records; also various post-
Revolution stuff including some NKVD files and apparently all Gulag files:
This is ArcheoBiblioBase archive #B1 http://www.iisg.nl/~abb/abb_b1.html

(2) pre-Revolution Russian military history, specifically military records of
the Russian Empire, "highest, central, and local military administration and
military agencies of the Russian Empire >from the end of the seventeenth century
until March 1918": This is ArcheoBiblioBase archive #B4
http://www.iisg.nl/~abb/abb_b4.html

(3) stuff in the formerly top-secret Central State Special Archive (TsGOA
SSSR). "The so-called Special Archive (Osobyi arkhiv) was officially
established in March 1946 to house the archival materials of foreign origin
from many European countries that were captured by Soviet Army at the end of
World War II in Germany, Poland, and Czechoslovakia and brought back to
Moscow. The 870 fonds of captured records (as of 2000), comprise official
records of the Third Reich and personal papers of many Nazi leaders and
prominent public figures of the Nazi movement; records of the high state
agencies of other European countries, which had earlier been captured by
Nazi authorities; records of many non-govermental organizations, agencies,
and individuals throughout Europe, including those of Jewish and Masonic
groups, socialist parties and labor associations, newspapers and publishing
houses, student organizations, and business firms; and collections of unique
documentary materials of private and family origin. Later the archive also
acquired records of Soviet agencies dealing with prisoners of war and
displaced persons under the NKVD-MVD, namely voluminous complex of records
of agencies subordinated to the Main Administration for Affairs of Prisoners
of War and Internees (GUPVI, 1939-1960), including records of individual POW
camps, which contain personal files on individual foreign prisoners and
documentation on the burial of prisoners who died in the USSR."
This is ArcheoBiblioBase archive #B8 http://www.iisg.nl/~abb/abb_b8.html

(4) "All-Russian Cheka, the State Political Administration (GPU), the
Consolidated State Political Administration (OGPU), the People's
Commissariat (and subsequent Ministry) of State Security (NVKD/MVD), the
Committee on State Security of the USSR (KGB), and related or subservient
predecessor organs":
This is ArcheoBiblioBase archive #C6 http://www.iisg.nl/~abb/abb_c6.html.

Through London University's School of Slavonic & Eastern European Studies
(which I used to attend; http://www.ssees.ucl.ac.uk), I may be about to find
one or more researchers willing (for a fee plus expenses) to visit these
archives for me to look into a few things for my own gen research. If anyone
would like me to add their stuff to the list and be prepared to pay the
researcher's particular relevant fees and expenses, just let me know direct
to richardastor@astorlaw.com.

With the usual best wishes and commiserations to fellow Genners similarly
trying to reconstruct their destroyed families,

Richard J. Astor
richardastor@astorlaw.com


Szabolcs county Kisvarda Dombrad #hungary

alex miller <alexpmiller@...>
 

Hello Friends,

If you research Szabolcs county around Kisvarda, this message is for
you. The satelite villages of the Kisvarda district/Jaras appear on
the Kisvarda FHL films 942904,5,6 as they should. However they also
appear on separate films( e.g. Ajak on--642900, Dombrad, Fenyeslitke,
Gyulahaza, Jeke-- on 942902, Patroha-- on 942915, Bezded, Berencs,
Veresmart --on 942916. --incomplete list--)

I had transcribed the Dombrad records a long time ago >from 942902 but
noticed that there are also Dombrad records on the Kisvarda films. The
task to sift thru them was overwhelming and I didn't know what those
records contain. Today, thanks to the effort of all the volunteer
transcribers and Sam Schleman's directing an answer is onhand.

Although I can't prove it, seems that we have a case of the 'two-copy'
motherbook/vital register, one copy being in the Kisvarda films and
the other in the individual films. I'll use Dombrad as a case example:

First the records are the same records. There is no separate
congregation with different names and families. There a slight
differences which can occur when a second copy is made. In this
particular case the Dombrad film is missing half of birth
records(about 200), which can happen since the location and the
tribulations of the specific registers differs.

Alex Miller PA


Hungary SIG #Hungary Fwd: Szabolcs county Kisvarda Dombrad #hungary

alex miller <alexpmiller@...>
 

Hello Friends,

If you research Szabolcs county around Kisvarda, this message is for
you. The satelite villages of the Kisvarda district/Jaras appear on
the Kisvarda FHL films 942904,5,6 as they should. However they also
appear on separate films( e.g. Ajak on--642900, Dombrad, Fenyeslitke,
Gyulahaza, Jeke-- on 942902, Patroha-- on 942915, Bezded, Berencs,
Veresmart --on 942916. --incomplete list--)

I had transcribed the Dombrad records a long time ago >from 942902 but
noticed that there are also Dombrad records on the Kisvarda films. The
task to sift thru them was overwhelming and I didn't know what those
records contain. Today, thanks to the effort of all the volunteer
transcribers and Sam Schleman's directing an answer is onhand.

Although I can't prove it, seems that we have a case of the 'two-copy'
motherbook/vital register, one copy being in the Kisvarda films and
the other in the individual films. I'll use Dombrad as a case example:

First the records are the same records. There is no separate
congregation with different names and families. There a slight
differences which can occur when a second copy is made. In this
particular case the Dombrad film is missing half of birth
records(about 200), which can happen since the location and the
tribulations of the specific registers differs.

Alex Miller PA


Magyar Zsido Lexicon #hungary

alex miller <alexpmiller@...>
 

Hello Friends,

The Magyar Zsido Lexicon is online--the scanned version and is
searchable. I did a search by name(hundreds of names are available) of
Dr Kecsemeti and the page describing the rabbi came up, with addional
names of the local leadership.

May also do other searches. It is in Hungarian. Have fun!

http://mek.oszk.hu/04000/04093/html/

Alex Miller Pa


Hungary SIG #Hungary Magyar Zsido Lexicon #hungary

alex miller <alexpmiller@...>
 

Hello Friends,

The Magyar Zsido Lexicon is online--the scanned version and is
searchable. I did a search by name(hundreds of names are available) of
Dr Kecsemeti and the page describing the rabbi came up, with addional
names of the local leadership.

May also do other searches. It is in Hungarian. Have fun!

http://mek.oszk.hu/04000/04093/html/

Alex Miller Pa


Re: Why 3 marriage banns in Bohemia? #general

Roger Lustig
 

Mimi:
I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you implying that there
were usually fewer or more banns posted before a wedding in that part of
the world in those days? I don't know about Bohemia, but in neighboring
Silesia and other parts of Prussia 3 banns (or 3 readings in church on
Sunday/shul on Saturday) would have been standard. The dates you
mention were Saturdays.

Roger Lustig
Princeton, NJ USA

Mimi Katz wrote:

Can someone explain why there would have been 3 marriage banns (May 4, 11,
18) in Bohemia, in 1878?


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Why 3 marriage banns in Bohemia? #general

Roger Lustig
 

Mimi:
I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you implying that there
were usually fewer or more banns posted before a wedding in that part of
the world in those days? I don't know about Bohemia, but in neighboring
Silesia and other parts of Prussia 3 banns (or 3 readings in church on
Sunday/shul on Saturday) would have been standard. The dates you
mention were Saturdays.

Roger Lustig
Princeton, NJ USA

Mimi Katz wrote:

Can someone explain why there would have been 3 marriage banns (May 4, 11,
18) in Bohemia, in 1878?


New York Cemetery Photo request #general

Shelly Crane
 

Dear fellow Genners

I am looking for some volunteers to take photos of grave sites at the
following cemeteries:

1. Mount Carmel Cemetery
83-45 Cypress Hills Street
Glendale NY 11385

2. Mount Hebron Cemetery
130-04 Horace Harding Expressway
Flushing, NY 11367

3. Mount Zion Cemetery
59-63 54th Avenue
Maspeth, NY 11378

I do not live in the New York area, so am unable to take these pictures.

Thank you very much
Kind regards

Shelly Levin
USA
crzprncess@aol.com
surnames I am researching in NewYork, USA
BALL/BOL, BOGEN, DANOWSKY, DAVIS, ELLIS, FLASTERSTEIN, FRIEND, FRISHMAN,
GABELMAN, JANOW, KALIFOWICZ, KWAIT, LANGUS, LIPOWICZ, LITOFF, MILEWICZ,
MILSTEIN, RIBACK, SHIFFMAN, SILVERSTONE

MODERATOR NOTE{ Please respond privately


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen New York Cemetery Photo request #general

Shelly Crane
 

Dear fellow Genners

I am looking for some volunteers to take photos of grave sites at the
following cemeteries:

1. Mount Carmel Cemetery
83-45 Cypress Hills Street
Glendale NY 11385

2. Mount Hebron Cemetery
130-04 Horace Harding Expressway
Flushing, NY 11367

3. Mount Zion Cemetery
59-63 54th Avenue
Maspeth, NY 11378

I do not live in the New York area, so am unable to take these pictures.

Thank you very much
Kind regards

Shelly Levin
USA
crzprncess@aol.com
surnames I am researching in NewYork, USA
BALL/BOL, BOGEN, DANOWSKY, DAVIS, ELLIS, FLASTERSTEIN, FRIEND, FRISHMAN,
GABELMAN, JANOW, KALIFOWICZ, KWAIT, LANGUS, LIPOWICZ, LITOFF, MILEWICZ,
MILSTEIN, RIBACK, SHIFFMAN, SILVERSTONE

MODERATOR NOTE{ Please respond privately


Re: surname roots and change #general

Roger Lustig
 

Names don't do this by themselves! People change their surnames, and do
it at a particular time in a particular place.

Your question suggests that France and Germany might be part of the
puzzle--say, Alsace. Could you help us out with any details you have?

Also, the question itself could be taken in two ways:

"Did either of these changes happen?"
or
"In which direction did the name transform itself?"

Without further information, I'd say "very likely" to the former
question and "I don't know" to the latter.

Meanwhile, have you checked the JewishGen Family Finder for AUSSENBERGs
or AUCHENBOURGs who might know more?

Roger Lustig
Princeton, NJ USA

earl aussenberg wrote:


Does anyone know if the name Auchenbourg changed to Aussenberg or the
reverse ??


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: surname roots and change #general

Roger Lustig
 

Names don't do this by themselves! People change their surnames, and do
it at a particular time in a particular place.

Your question suggests that France and Germany might be part of the
puzzle--say, Alsace. Could you help us out with any details you have?

Also, the question itself could be taken in two ways:

"Did either of these changes happen?"
or
"In which direction did the name transform itself?"

Without further information, I'd say "very likely" to the former
question and "I don't know" to the latter.

Meanwhile, have you checked the JewishGen Family Finder for AUSSENBERGs
or AUCHENBOURGs who might know more?

Roger Lustig
Princeton, NJ USA

earl aussenberg wrote:


Does anyone know if the name Auchenbourg changed to Aussenberg or the
reverse ??


Re: Lord Mayor of London: Jewish holders of the title. #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/25/2007, debscheim@aol.com writes:

<< There are many possibilities, any of which might
explain the family memory of his being an alderman. >>

==Don't even neglect the simplest of explanations. Perhaps
someone had once referred to him as "Ein Alter Mann" [an old man].

==Some surnames, some titles, some family histories hark back
to such simple mishearings, or even simpler ones.

Michael Bernet, New York
mbernet@aol.com


Red Hair: "dzhindzi," "g'ing'i" or "ginger" is not Yiddish #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/25/2007 5:00:27 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
Redball62@aol.com writes:

<< Strangely, I have never heard the words "dzhindzi," "g'ing'i" or even
"ginger" associated with my red hair. However, I think that I remember
being called something like a "Royta Moyd." (spelling?)>>

==The association of this term with Yiddish was a mistake. It is part of
spoken modern Israeli Hebrew and dates probably >from the late 1930's, under the
British mandate. Its origin is "ginger" >from either American or British
English.

==The Yiddish expression for a red-haired young woman or girl would have
been (depending on region)
"Royteh Moydel/Meydel/Mydel"; perhaps with a suffix "-le."

Michael Bernet, New York
mbernet@aol.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Lord Mayor of London: Jewish holders of the title. #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/25/2007, debscheim@aol.com writes:

<< There are many possibilities, any of which might
explain the family memory of his being an alderman. >>

==Don't even neglect the simplest of explanations. Perhaps
someone had once referred to him as "Ein Alter Mann" [an old man].

==Some surnames, some titles, some family histories hark back
to such simple mishearings, or even simpler ones.

Michael Bernet, New York
mbernet@aol.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Red Hair: "dzhindzi," "g'ing'i" or "ginger" is not Yiddish #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/25/2007 5:00:27 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
Redball62@aol.com writes:

<< Strangely, I have never heard the words "dzhindzi," "g'ing'i" or even
"ginger" associated with my red hair. However, I think that I remember
being called something like a "Royta Moyd." (spelling?)>>

==The association of this term with Yiddish was a mistake. It is part of
spoken modern Israeli Hebrew and dates probably >from the late 1930's, under the
British mandate. Its origin is "ginger" >from either American or British
English.

==The Yiddish expression for a red-haired young woman or girl would have
been (depending on region)
"Royteh Moydel/Meydel/Mydel"; perhaps with a suffix "-le."

Michael Bernet, New York
mbernet@aol.com