Celia Male wrote:

With reference to BYSTRY, I suspect it could be a variant of a toponymic
for Bistritz. There is a man buried in Vienna with this name:

BISTREICH Mattes aged 22 died 13.05.1899 16.05.1899

Bystry (Bystryi, Bystryy) is a Slavic for a fast (or speedy ) [person].
Popular in town naming pattern in Slovakia, Poland, Czechia, Ukraine and
Russia proper.

Alexander Sharon
Calgary, Ab

Celia Male wrote:

With reference to BYSTRY, I suspect it could be a variant of a toponymic
for Bistritz. There is a man buried in Vienna with this name:

BISTREICH Mattes aged 22 died 13.05.1899 16.05.1899

Bystry (Bystryi, Bystryy) is a Slavic for a fast (or speedy ) [person].
Popular in town naming pattern in Slovakia, Poland, Czechia, Ukraine and
Russia proper.

Alexander Sharon
Calgary, Ab

It is with a profound sense of humility and a deep and abiding
respect that I recognize that I must differ with Gary Mokotoff in his
assessment that the names "Bysky" and "Bystry" do not source in the
Jewish people; I believe that there is a very strong probability that
there are Jewish roots to this family.

Gary raises a few issues that lead him to his conclusion: (1) that
the name Bysky does not exist on Avotaynu's Consolidated Surname
Index; (2) that the name does not exist in any of the published
Jewish surname books; (3) that Bystry exists because of only one
family; and (4) that a citation he found sounds Christian.

(1) PRESENCE ON AVOTAYNU'S LIST: As it happens, I carry a name,
ROEKARD, that exists on Avotaynu's Consolidated Jewish Surname Index
only because of two citations: one >from a single listing on JRI-Poland
(ROKART) and the other, because I have listed myself as a researcher
at JewishGen. That the ROKART record exists at JRI-Poland at all
is purely accidental: my great-grandfather was living with his wife's
family (via kest), the GOLDWURMs, in Biely Kamen. As it happened,
even though they were Chassidic, the GOLDWURMs registered births and
so the birth of my great-grandfather's 1st child was registered. The
records >from his hometown Belz, to which he later returned, are
missing. If not for that single citation in Biely Kamen, no ROKART
records would exist at JRI-Poland, I might not have registered with
JewishGen and then no records for the ROKARTs would be on Avotaynu's
Consolidated Surname List.

(2) PRESENCE IN JEWISH SURNAME BOOKS: My family is 100% Galizianer
for at least 240 years; I have Tabula Register records going back to
1789 that have the name spelled in six different ways. And yet, NONE
of the seven versions of the name have been included in the Galician
Surname Book.

(3) BYSTRY exists because of only ONE FAMILY with that surname.
There are four BYSTRY citations at JRI-Poland; there is only one ROKART
citation. The BYSTRYs could have been Chassidic and not registered
vital events or like the town of Belz, the records could be lost.

(4) CHRISTIAN SOUNDING NAME: Maybe this is the branch of the family
that converted? Maybe these were the secular members of the family?

Susan Manko raises a few issues:

"We thought it was Bystry but later learned it was Bysky". I have
learned several things >from finding the multiple versions of my name;

from transcribing well over 10000 names; and >from comparing the

original documents and the transcribed names for several thousand
names. I have learned that the original scribes sometimes spelled
names differently in different years, accidentally or on purpose, and
the people who now transcribe names, and especially Jewish names, at
least the ones I have looked at, sometimes make mistakes in the
transcription process. And it is also possible that the name has been
passed down wrong or in only one version -- like the game hot potato
that we played as kids. Thus I have learned to look beyond a specific
spelling of a name to the sound of the name and maybe even the source
of the name.

Thus, with BYSTRY, when I looked more deeply into JRI's database, I
found a few additional possibilities: BYSTRYCKI, BYSTRYCKA, BYSTRYN,
BYSTRYK, and BYSTROWICZ

BYSKY was more interesting. I found single citations of the following
names: BOSK, BOZYK, BUJZYK; three citations for BYSK; and quite a few
citations for BYSKO -- most in towns close to Lvov or Warsaw.
My original thought when I had read Ms. Manko's questions had been
that maybe this name sourced in the town of Busk and I even found a
single name citation >from 1830 of a BYSKOWICZ, which I think means
"son of BYSKO". I cannot think of any Hebrew or Yiddish name or
diminutive that is close to BISKO, so maybe this actually is
referring to someone who was a native, a "son of" BUSK. And maybe
the family name was BYSKO and evolved >from BYSTRY to BYSKY rather
than BYSKO, and the many BYSKOs I found actually are the family Ms.
Manko is looking for.

"We thought it was Polish but have been told it is Austrian.
(Ancestry.com)"
Many of the citations I have listed were >from Galician towns. >from
the 1770s till 1918 Galicia was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire,
so this is possible.

"My uncles petty much had Hebrew given names".
This is the most interesting and critical point of this whole e-mail.

Were these names Hebrew or biblical? If Hebrew, then I certainly
would assume they were Jewish and would do my darndest to get their
birth or death certificates as well as the ship manifest of their
arrival here and their applications for naturalization. If they were
distanced >from the family, I would go see what their gravestones say.

"I was never told of them by my family". This was somewhat of a shock
to me. Maybe the family converted in the 19th century or more
recently, in the time of Hitler (Yimach Shemo). Maybe they converted
for professional reasons. In any event, maybe that was one of the
family secrets that the family wants to forget but your soul is singing
to remember.


"Something deep inside me thinks we were Jewish".
If your soul, your neshamah, is called to the idea that you have
Jewish in you, then why don't you go and hang out with the Jews over

High Holy Days in a few weeks and see how it feels. Jewish Renewal is =20=

very user friendly and you can think of it as a cultural experience.

If you think you have Jewish in you, >from what I can see, I think you =20=

probably have Jewish in you. It can be a challenging path, so think =20
carefully before you acknowledge it.

Good luck!

B'shalom,
karen roekard
aka gitel chaye eta rosenfeld rokart

It is with a profound sense of humility and a deep and abiding
respect that I recognize that I must differ with Gary Mokotoff in his
assessment that the names "Bysky" and "Bystry" do not source in the
Jewish people; I believe that there is a very strong probability that
there are Jewish roots to this family.

Gary raises a few issues that lead him to his conclusion: (1) that
the name Bysky does not exist on Avotaynu's Consolidated Surname
Index; (2) that the name does not exist in any of the published
Jewish surname books; (3) that Bystry exists because of only one
family; and (4) that a citation he found sounds Christian.

(1) PRESENCE ON AVOTAYNU'S LIST: As it happens, I carry a name,
ROEKARD, that exists on Avotaynu's Consolidated Jewish Surname Index
only because of two citations: one >from a single listing on JRI-Poland
(ROKART) and the other, because I have listed myself as a researcher
at JewishGen. That the ROKART record exists at JRI-Poland at all
is purely accidental: my great-grandfather was living with his wife's
family (via kest), the GOLDWURMs, in Biely Kamen. As it happened,
even though they were Chassidic, the GOLDWURMs registered births and
so the birth of my great-grandfather's 1st child was registered. The
records >from his hometown Belz, to which he later returned, are
missing. If not for that single citation in Biely Kamen, no ROKART
records would exist at JRI-Poland, I might not have registered with
JewishGen and then no records for the ROKARTs would be on Avotaynu's
Consolidated Surname List.

(2) PRESENCE IN JEWISH SURNAME BOOKS: My family is 100% Galizianer
for at least 240 years; I have Tabula Register records going back to
1789 that have the name spelled in six different ways. And yet, NONE
of the seven versions of the name have been included in the Galician
Surname Book.

(3) BYSTRY exists because of only ONE FAMILY with that surname.
There are four BYSTRY citations at JRI-Poland; there is only one ROKART
citation. The BYSTRYs could have been Chassidic and not registered
vital events or like the town of Belz, the records could be lost.

(4) CHRISTIAN SOUNDING NAME: Maybe this is the branch of the family
that converted? Maybe these were the secular members of the family?

Susan Manko raises a few issues:

"We thought it was Bystry but later learned it was Bysky". I have
learned several things >from finding the multiple versions of my name;

from transcribing well over 10000 names; and >from comparing the

original documents and the transcribed names for several thousand
names. I have learned that the original scribes sometimes spelled
names differently in different years, accidentally or on purpose, and
the people who now transcribe names, and especially Jewish names, at
least the ones I have looked at, sometimes make mistakes in the
transcription process. And it is also possible that the name has been
passed down wrong or in only one version -- like the game hot potato
that we played as kids. Thus I have learned to look beyond a specific
spelling of a name to the sound of the name and maybe even the source
of the name.

Thus, with BYSTRY, when I looked more deeply into JRI's database, I
found a few additional possibilities: BYSTRYCKI, BYSTRYCKA, BYSTRYN,
BYSTRYK, and BYSTROWICZ

BYSKY was more interesting. I found single citations of the following
names: BOSK, BOZYK, BUJZYK; three citations for BYSK; and quite a few
citations for BYSKO -- most in towns close to Lvov or Warsaw.
My original thought when I had read Ms. Manko's questions had been
that maybe this name sourced in the town of Busk and I even found a
single name citation >from 1830 of a BYSKOWICZ, which I think means
"son of BYSKO". I cannot think of any Hebrew or Yiddish name or
diminutive that is close to BISKO, so maybe this actually is
referring to someone who was a native, a "son of" BUSK. And maybe
the family name was BYSKO and evolved >from BYSTRY to BYSKY rather
than BYSKO, and the many BYSKOs I found actually are the family Ms.
Manko is looking for.

"We thought it was Polish but have been told it is Austrian.
(Ancestry.com)"
Many of the citations I have listed were >from Galician towns. >from
the 1770s till 1918 Galicia was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire,
so this is possible.

"My uncles petty much had Hebrew given names".
This is the most interesting and critical point of this whole e-mail.

Were these names Hebrew or biblical? If Hebrew, then I certainly
would assume they were Jewish and would do my darndest to get their
birth or death certificates as well as the ship manifest of their
arrival here and their applications for naturalization. If they were
distanced >from the family, I would go see what their gravestones say.

"I was never told of them by my family". This was somewhat of a shock
to me. Maybe the family converted in the 19th century or more
recently, in the time of Hitler (Yimach Shemo). Maybe they converted
for professional reasons. In any event, maybe that was one of the
family secrets that the family wants to forget but your soul is singing
to remember.


"Something deep inside me thinks we were Jewish".
If your soul, your neshamah, is called to the idea that you have
Jewish in you, then why don't you go and hang out with the Jews over

High Holy Days in a few weeks and see how it feels. Jewish Renewal is =20=

very user friendly and you can think of it as a cultural experience.

If you think you have Jewish in you, >from what I can see, I think you =20=

probably have Jewish in you. It can be a challenging path, so think =20
carefully before you acknowledge it.

Good luck!

B'shalom,
karen roekard
aka gitel chaye eta rosenfeld rokart

CRomRider@... wrote:

I also saw the BYSTRY listing on the JRI-Poland database. Assuming it is an
unusual name, I did a random check of the US federal census records and
Ellis Island database. Indeed, almost all of the BYSTRY listings are obviously
not Jewish. But when I contacted the individual who asked about her family
surname and found this particular family in the US census, I could almost say
"Maybe". Most of the names of the children were the ones distinctly used by
Jews of the time period--Benjamin, Harry, Rose and David. The mother's name
was Dora. That leaves two of the children and the father with names that
maybe are, maybe are not.

The point I am making is that when a surname is so unusual, sometimes it can
be difficult to decide what it is. Perhaps this BYSTRY family was
originally Polish, and a male converted to Judiasm. Not likely, but maybe.

Another possibility, which hasn't yet been mentioned, is that the
mother, Dora, was Jewish, but the father was not. Maybe her surname
would give some clues?

Sue Clamp

Cambridge, UK

CRomRider@... wrote:

I also saw the BYSTRY listing on the JRI-Poland database. Assuming it is an
unusual name, I did a random check of the US federal census records and
Ellis Island database. Indeed, almost all of the BYSTRY listings are obviously
not Jewish. But when I contacted the individual who asked about her family
surname and found this particular family in the US census, I could almost say
"Maybe". Most of the names of the children were the ones distinctly used by
Jews of the time period--Benjamin, Harry, Rose and David. The mother's name
was Dora. That leaves two of the children and the father with names that
maybe are, maybe are not.

The point I am making is that when a surname is so unusual, sometimes it can
be difficult to decide what it is. Perhaps this BYSTRY family was
originally Polish, and a male converted to Judiasm. Not likely, but maybe.

Another possibility, which hasn't yet been mentioned, is that the
mother, Dora, was Jewish, but the father was not. Maybe her surname
would give some clues?

Sue Clamp

Cambridge, UK

I was hoping to make a trip to Latvia next year with the ShtetlSchleppers
organisation. I had read details of their trips in the past and it sounded
ideal for what I was hoping to do.

However, for the last few months searching for them on the JewishGen website
just produces a mesage saying: "The ShtetlSchleppers site is under contruction."

There is no contact details or other information.

Does anyone know if they are still functioning or how I can get in touch with
them? Any help much appreciated.

Francis John Wilton
Chichester
England

Researching: MYERSON and PASS families in Borovka and Riga, Latvia

I was hoping to make a trip to Latvia next year with the ShtetlSchleppers
organisation. I had read details of their trips in the past and it sounded
ideal for what I was hoping to do.

However, for the last few months searching for them on the JewishGen website
just produces a mesage saying: "The ShtetlSchleppers site is under contruction."

There is no contact details or other information.

Does anyone know if they are still functioning or how I can get in touch with
them? Any help much appreciated.

Francis John Wilton
Chichester
England

Researching: MYERSON and PASS families in Borovka and Riga, Latvia

"Jan Groshan" <jangro@...> wrote

My husband's grandmother and aunt came to the U.S. in 1921. I have found
their arrival documents (Boston). His uncle and his father were traveling
with them. Although the manifest says they all planned to stay in the U.S.
"for ever", in fact his grandmother and aunt returned to Israel and never
did come back to the U.S. Is there somewhere online where I could look to
find a manifest of "returning" individuals ?

The US did not create or maintain departure records.

Before 1948, the place you call Israel was a British Protectorate (or League
of Nations Mandate, if you prefer) called Palestine. I've not heard that the
authorities kept arrival lists, but if they did they would be in English.

Peter Zavon
Penfield, NY

PZAVON@...

"Jan Groshan" <jangro@...> wrote

My husband's grandmother and aunt came to the U.S. in 1921. I have found
their arrival documents (Boston). His uncle and his father were traveling
with them. Although the manifest says they all planned to stay in the U.S.
"for ever", in fact his grandmother and aunt returned to Israel and never
did come back to the U.S. Is there somewhere online where I could look to
find a manifest of "returning" individuals ?

The US did not create or maintain departure records.

Before 1948, the place you call Israel was a British Protectorate (or League
of Nations Mandate, if you prefer) called Palestine. I've not heard that the
authorities kept arrival lists, but if they did they would be in English.

Peter Zavon
Penfield, NY

PZAVON@...

2. who was responsible for transportation of the
Torah scrolls >from country to country? Any member of the community? Somebody in
particular? Will the Torah move >from its original place only in case when the
community was dispersed? Were there any other reasons for the scrolls to travel
great distances? The scroll in question, as I mentioned previously originated in
North Africa, according to the hand-writting of the scribe.

I'm not sure why you think there would be restrictions on who can handle a Torah
scroll. Anyone can transport a Torah scroll. Some orthodox Jews don't permit women
to handle them but that rule is not backed up by Jewish law. When a community
dispersed, its scrolls were often sent to other locations or other congregations

A no longer needed scroll in good condition can fetch a good price and may be
sold to a community in another location. Many scrolls that survived the
Holocaust have been presented or sold to Jewish congregations all over the world.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...

2. who was responsible for transportation of the
Torah scrolls >from country to country? Any member of the community? Somebody in
particular? Will the Torah move >from its original place only in case when the
community was dispersed? Were there any other reasons for the scrolls to travel
great distances? The scroll in question, as I mentioned previously originated in
North Africa, according to the hand-writting of the scribe.

I'm not sure why you think there would be restrictions on who can handle a Torah
scroll. Anyone can transport a Torah scroll. Some orthodox Jews don't permit women
to handle them but that rule is not backed up by Jewish law. When a community
dispersed, its scrolls were often sent to other locations or other congregations

A no longer needed scroll in good condition can fetch a good price and may be
sold to a community in another location. Many scrolls that survived the
Holocaust have been presented or sold to Jewish congregations all over the world.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...

Steve Pickholz asked: "Has anyone ever heard of the Achnosath Orchim Association?"


"Achnosath Orchim" is a slightly corrupted spelling of the Hebrew phrase
Hakh'nasat Or'him ( in Ashkenazic pronunciation, Hakhnosas Or'him). It is the
talmudic technical term for the mitzvah of hospitality, and means literally
"welcoming guests."

In the 19th-20th centuries there was an actual charitable organization named
Hakhnosas Or'him, which apparently operated guest houses for Jewish travelers in
NYC and perhaps other cities; I don't know if it is still extant anywhere.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...

Steve Pickholz asked: "Has anyone ever heard of the Achnosath Orchim Association?"


"Achnosath Orchim" is a slightly corrupted spelling of the Hebrew phrase
Hakh'nasat Or'him ( in Ashkenazic pronunciation, Hakhnosas Or'him). It is the
talmudic technical term for the mitzvah of hospitality, and means literally
"welcoming guests."

In the 19th-20th centuries there was an actual charitable organization named
Hakhnosas Or'him, which apparently operated guest houses for Jewish travelers in
NYC and perhaps other cities; I don't know if it is still extant anywhere.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...

I just came back >from another exciting trip to Poland. If you are
interested in learning about the latest information regarding birth,
marriage and death records >from Bedzin (Bendin), Sosnowiec (Sosnowitz),
Dabrowa Gornicza, Strzemiesyzce, Modrzejow and Czeladz, please contact
me privately.

Jeff Cymbler
Researching CYMBLER, ADLERFLIEGEL, BACHMAN, MONSZAJN, POSMANTIER,
RUSINEK, CYGUS

I just came back >from another exciting trip to Poland. If you are
interested in learning about the latest information regarding birth,
marriage and death records >from Bedzin (Bendin), Sosnowiec (Sosnowitz),
Dabrowa Gornicza, Strzemiesyzce, Modrzejow and Czeladz, please contact
me privately.

Jeff Cymbler
Researching CYMBLER, ADLERFLIEGEL, BACHMAN, MONSZAJN, POSMANTIER,
RUSINEK, CYGUS

I am descended >from the KATZENSTEIN family of Rhina, Kreis Hunfeld,
Hessen. I recently discovered a Dora KATZENSTEIN who was born on 10
May 1880 in Rhina. She married Levi Yehuda PLAUT on 29 July 1907 died
on 23 October 1918 in Willingshausen, Hessen, Germany. Levi Yehuda
PLAUT was born on 1 October 1873 in Willingshausen, Hessen, Germany.
He died on 14 May 1951 in Johannesburg, South Africa.

I am unable to determine whether Dora KATZENSTEIN is connected to my
family. Does anyone know the names of her parents and grandparents,
etc? This may help place her. Does anyone know whether the cemetery
and/or burial records still exist for Willingshausen? They could also
help place Dora KATZENSTEIN. Thanks. Regards

Steven Leof, London UK

I am descended >from the KATZENSTEIN family of Rhina, Kreis Hunfeld,
Hessen. I recently discovered a Dora KATZENSTEIN who was born on 10
May 1880 in Rhina. She married Levi Yehuda PLAUT on 29 July 1907 died
on 23 October 1918 in Willingshausen, Hessen, Germany. Levi Yehuda
PLAUT was born on 1 October 1873 in Willingshausen, Hessen, Germany.
He died on 14 May 1951 in Johannesburg, South Africa.

I am unable to determine whether Dora KATZENSTEIN is connected to my
family. Does anyone know the names of her parents and grandparents,
etc? This may help place her. Does anyone know whether the cemetery
and/or burial records still exist for Willingshausen? They could also
help place Dora KATZENSTEIN. Thanks. Regards

Steven Leof, London UK

A recent posting regarding the Jews of Egelsbach, a small town in Hesse, has
brought out both the possibilities for and obstacles to doing research in
smaller towns in the Nazi Period, specifically the use of the 1939 census.

The inquirer had located 10 names of persons related to Egelsbach. The 1939
census showed no Jews resident in that town. However, by looking under
place of birth, rather than residence, I was able to locate 40 persons born
in Egelsbach, mostly Jews and this list was sent to the inquirer.

In Egelsbach, as was the case for most smaller towns, Jews found it
advantageous to move to larger cities, in the case of Egelsbach, primarily
Frankfurt. The problem for researchers seeking to reconstruct the Jewish
population of such smaller towns is that the census is organized by place of
residence and filmed copies cannot be searched by place of birth.

There is, however, a digitized version of the census, to my knowledge only
available at the Bundesarchiv itself and at the USHMM, which can be searched
by any field, e.g. place of birth, maiden name or even street address. Until
and if this resource is put on the web, researchers will have to go to these two
sources for such highly interesting research.

Peter Lande Washington DC <pdlande@...>

A recent posting regarding the Jews of Egelsbach, a small town in Hesse, has
brought out both the possibilities for and obstacles to doing research in
smaller towns in the Nazi Period, specifically the use of the 1939 census.

The inquirer had located 10 names of persons related to Egelsbach. The 1939
census showed no Jews resident in that town. However, by looking under
place of birth, rather than residence, I was able to locate 40 persons born
in Egelsbach, mostly Jews and this list was sent to the inquirer.

In Egelsbach, as was the case for most smaller towns, Jews found it
advantageous to move to larger cities, in the case of Egelsbach, primarily
Frankfurt. The problem for researchers seeking to reconstruct the Jewish
population of such smaller towns is that the census is organized by place of
residence and filmed copies cannot be searched by place of birth.

There is, however, a digitized version of the census, to my knowledge only
available at the Bundesarchiv itself and at the USHMM, which can be searched
by any field, e.g. place of birth, maiden name or even street address. Until
and if this resource is put on the web, researchers will have to go to these two
sources for such highly interesting research.

Peter Lande Washington DC <pdlande@...>