Date   

Birth certificates #unitedkingdom

David Kravitz
 

The Data Protection Act only applies to living people. Thus if a baby died
at birth this year, for example, it would not be afforded the protection of
the Act. Also, as an ex-lecturer on the subject of the Act, I am unclear if
birth certificates are protected by the Act at all. BMD certificates are
public documents easily obtainable via the Family Research Centre in
Islington. I have a copy of a birth certificate dated 1911 of a Cecil
Kravitz whom I think may be a relation but I cannot confirm it.
I merely filled in a form at the centre and paid my money.

David Kravitz

MODERATOR NOTE: JGSGB/JCR-UK apply the 100 year rule unless we know for a fact that
the party is deceased. We are publishing data rather than using
it for individual personal research purposes.


JCR-UK SIG #UnitedKingdom Birth certificates #unitedkingdom

David Kravitz
 

The Data Protection Act only applies to living people. Thus if a baby died
at birth this year, for example, it would not be afforded the protection of
the Act. Also, as an ex-lecturer on the subject of the Act, I am unclear if
birth certificates are protected by the Act at all. BMD certificates are
public documents easily obtainable via the Family Research Centre in
Islington. I have a copy of a birth certificate dated 1911 of a Cecil
Kravitz whom I think may be a relation but I cannot confirm it.
I merely filled in a form at the centre and paid my money.

David Kravitz

MODERATOR NOTE: JGSGB/JCR-UK apply the 100 year rule unless we know for a fact that
the party is deceased. We are publishing data rather than using
it for individual personal research purposes.


Olkusz, Poland JRI Indexing project #general

DAGAG123@...
 

Dear Fellow Olkusz Researchers,

The Jewish Records Indexing-Poland project is happy to announce that=
the indices to all the Jewish vital records of Olkusz--not filmed by the
LDS (Mormons)--have been indexed by the JRI-Poland team in Warsaw,=
as part of the Katowice Polish State Archives (PSA) Project.

Olkusz is located at Latitude 50 17'00, Longitude 19 34, and is
33 km NW of Krakow.

The years indexed are: 1826, 1871-1900

There are total of 4409 entries >from the records for this project is 4409
including:

Births: 2,382
Marriages: 1,118
Deaths: 909

Surnames:

These are the most common surnames found in the Olkusz indices.
(The number of entries follows the name.)

GLAJTMAN 111
KAMRAT 95
SZYKMAN 87
BLUMENFELD 76
GROSMAN 74
LEWKOWICZ 72
ROZENFELD 58
ROZENBAUM 57
UNGER 57
GROSSMAN 54
ZELINGER 54
KERNER 52
GOLDFELD 51
ROZENBLUM 51
MACNER 50
FRENKEL 49
WAJCMAN 47
KOLIN 44
SLOMNICKI 38
IMERGLIK 36
FRYDMAN 35
SZTAJNBERG 34
SZTARK 34
BUCHBINDER 32
FAJNER 32
GLIKSZTEJN 32
SZPILMAN 31
GLIKSZTAJN 30
FELDMAN 29
ZILBERSZTAJN 29
ROZENBERG 28
ZILBERSZTEJN 28
KESTENBERG 27
SZTATLER 27
WAJSMAN 27
BIRMAN 26
GOTFRYD 26
GRYNBERG 25

However, there are a total of 730 different surnames in the records.
A list of all surnames appearing in the Sierpc indices should be online
shortly at:

http://www.jri-poland.org/psa/olkusz_surn.htm

If you would like to know the number of times any surname appears in
the new indices or more about the Olkusz project, please contact me at
DAGAG123@aol.com (mailto:DAGAG123@aol.com) or dagag@comcast.net
(mailto:dagag@comcast.net) :

Best wishes,

Desiree Gil
Olkusz Town Leader
Katowice Archives Project
Jewish Records Indexing-Poland


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Olkusz, Poland JRI Indexing project #general

DAGAG123@...
 

Dear Fellow Olkusz Researchers,

The Jewish Records Indexing-Poland project is happy to announce that=
the indices to all the Jewish vital records of Olkusz--not filmed by the
LDS (Mormons)--have been indexed by the JRI-Poland team in Warsaw,=
as part of the Katowice Polish State Archives (PSA) Project.

Olkusz is located at Latitude 50 17'00, Longitude 19 34, and is
33 km NW of Krakow.

The years indexed are: 1826, 1871-1900

There are total of 4409 entries >from the records for this project is 4409
including:

Births: 2,382
Marriages: 1,118
Deaths: 909

Surnames:

These are the most common surnames found in the Olkusz indices.
(The number of entries follows the name.)

GLAJTMAN 111
KAMRAT 95
SZYKMAN 87
BLUMENFELD 76
GROSMAN 74
LEWKOWICZ 72
ROZENFELD 58
ROZENBAUM 57
UNGER 57
GROSSMAN 54
ZELINGER 54
KERNER 52
GOLDFELD 51
ROZENBLUM 51
MACNER 50
FRENKEL 49
WAJCMAN 47
KOLIN 44
SLOMNICKI 38
IMERGLIK 36
FRYDMAN 35
SZTAJNBERG 34
SZTARK 34
BUCHBINDER 32
FAJNER 32
GLIKSZTEJN 32
SZPILMAN 31
GLIKSZTAJN 30
FELDMAN 29
ZILBERSZTAJN 29
ROZENBERG 28
ZILBERSZTEJN 28
KESTENBERG 27
SZTATLER 27
WAJSMAN 27
BIRMAN 26
GOTFRYD 26
GRYNBERG 25

However, there are a total of 730 different surnames in the records.
A list of all surnames appearing in the Sierpc indices should be online
shortly at:

http://www.jri-poland.org/psa/olkusz_surn.htm

If you would like to know the number of times any surname appears in
the new indices or more about the Olkusz project, please contact me at
DAGAG123@aol.com (mailto:DAGAG123@aol.com) or dagag@comcast.net
(mailto:dagag@comcast.net) :

Best wishes,

Desiree Gil
Olkusz Town Leader
Katowice Archives Project
Jewish Records Indexing-Poland


Yiddish Versions/Lithuanian #lithuania

Steve Franklin <cryptozoomorphic@...>
 

There are, in fact, two separate languages, Western Yiddish, with a
primarily Germanic vocabulary, and Eastern Yiddish, with a Slavic
vocabulary. The grammar is similar, though. I have not seen any
information as to where exactly the line was between the two versions,
but it obviously had to do with German and Russian Jews respectively.

As for Lithuanian, I recall learning a few words of it >from my quite
intelligent grandmother until my father got wind of it and put the
kibosh on the whole affair, I'm still not sure exactly why. Something
to do with Americanization I suppose.

Steve Franklin
http://www.lordbalto.com/
|
| My grandparents came >from Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine, and while
| each spoke 4 or 5 languages upon arrival in the US, Yiddish seems to
| be the common thread and the language spoken at home in all cases.
| The regional differences between "Litvish" and "Galitzianer" Yiddish
| dialects themselves presented some interesting challenges to the
| speakers.
|
| Gabe Kingsley

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Although a discussion of Yiddish pronunciation can
occasionally offer a clue to an ancestor's region of origin, a separate
thread on Yiddish per se would be considered off-topic for this list.


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Yiddish Versions/Lithuanian #lithuania

Steve Franklin <cryptozoomorphic@...>
 

There are, in fact, two separate languages, Western Yiddish, with a
primarily Germanic vocabulary, and Eastern Yiddish, with a Slavic
vocabulary. The grammar is similar, though. I have not seen any
information as to where exactly the line was between the two versions,
but it obviously had to do with German and Russian Jews respectively.

As for Lithuanian, I recall learning a few words of it >from my quite
intelligent grandmother until my father got wind of it and put the
kibosh on the whole affair, I'm still not sure exactly why. Something
to do with Americanization I suppose.

Steve Franklin
http://www.lordbalto.com/
|
| My grandparents came >from Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine, and while
| each spoke 4 or 5 languages upon arrival in the US, Yiddish seems to
| be the common thread and the language spoken at home in all cases.
| The regional differences between "Litvish" and "Galitzianer" Yiddish
| dialects themselves presented some interesting challenges to the
| speakers.
|
| Gabe Kingsley

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Although a discussion of Yiddish pronunciation can
occasionally offer a clue to an ancestor's region of origin, a separate
thread on Yiddish per se would be considered off-topic for this list.


translation request from Polish to English - VM 6165 - 6171 #general

Shelly Crane
 


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen translation request from Polish to English - VM 6165 - 6171 #general

Shelly Crane
 


Hebrew / Yiddish #lithuania

Altersolomon@...
 

I emigrated to Canada >from the UK in the 1960's and on entry was
asked to state my ethnic group. I put down "Caucasian" and was told
this was not an acceptable category. I then wrote down white, to be
told this too was not acceptable. I professed I was stumped by the
question. The immigration officer on seeing that I was born in England
suggested I put down Anglo-Saxon. I can't, I said, I'm a Jew.OK then,
put down Hebrew. So I entered Canada as a Hebrew.

Alter Solomon


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Hebrew / Yiddish #lithuania

Altersolomon@...
 

I emigrated to Canada >from the UK in the 1960's and on entry was
asked to state my ethnic group. I put down "Caucasian" and was told
this was not an acceptable category. I then wrote down white, to be
told this too was not acceptable. I professed I was stumped by the
question. The immigration officer on seeing that I was born in England
suggested I put down Anglo-Saxon. I can't, I said, I'm a Jew.OK then,
put down Hebrew. So I entered Canada as a Hebrew.

Alter Solomon


LITHUANIAN VS. RUSSIAN VS. YIDDISH VS. HEBREW/ LANGUAGE #lithuania

Ziegelman <zieg_exp@...>
 

Here is my understanding of the language conundrum of our Lithuanian
ancestors:

Background:
Till after World War I, Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine were part of the
Russian Empire, and nearly all Jews living in the Russian Empire were
limited by law to live in these areas, which were called the Pale of
Settlement (of the Jews). Thus during the 19th and early 20th centuries
the official language in the pale was Russian. Therefore the language
of instruction in public schools was Russian.

In the period of which I am speaking, at home Lithuanians spoke
Lithuanian, Poles (who lived in Lithuania) spoke Polish, Russians
(who lived in Lithuania) spoke Russian, and Jews spoke Yiddish.
During the 19th century, for various reasons, for Jews the walls between
these languages began to crack. For example, Russian gained adherents by
dint of the Jewish cantonists forced to serve in the tsar's army for 25
years who spoke Russian when they returned to their villages, or took up
residence outside the pale. Jewish boys who were forced by the Russian
authorities to attend public school came out speaking Russian.

And in the late 19th century when in the Jewish community there was no
provision for schooling for Jewish girls, even girls >from religious homes
voluntarily attended public schools where all the instruction was in Russian
(like my grandmother, Simcha/Celia nee Alperovitch Alperovitch, >from Vileika,
Vilna Guberniya, born 1885, who lived in Lithuania, spoke Yiddish, and knew
Russian but not Lithuanian).

Furthermore, the second half of the 19th century saw a Jewish NATIONAL
renaissance which brought to life lashon ha-kodesh, Hebrew, through the
development of a secular literature written in Hebrew, enabling Jews who
knew biblical Hebrew to now read works on modern themes - in Hebrew.

Thus - Till about 1900 the first language (the native tongue) of our
ancestors was Yiddish. But Russian was making inroads. In the late 19th
century I've noticed that in the pale, a few city Jews gave their children
Russian names (on a Revision List see at least one 1880-1890 Vilkomir
Russian-named Weissbrot family).

After World War I, Lithuania and Poland gained their independence >from
Russia (Poland had already had a degree of independence >from Russia also
before World War I). Believe it or not, part of Lithuania, the Vilna
guberniya, was taken over by Poland. And so, after World War I in the
Lithuania-ruled part of Lithuania, the Lithuanian language replaced Russian
as the official language, while in the Poland-ruled part, Polish became the
official language.

In the 20th century, the Jews were divided into three groups. The first
group sought Jewish "national" autonomy in Lithuania; it developed a
Yiddish school system and sought dedicated "Jewish" seats in the Lithuanian
parliament. The second group had real Jewish national aspirations. Hebrew
was its flagship language, and this group developed Zionist Hebrew-teaching
schools, youth groups, etc. Its goals were a real innovation, and in the
pale and in Poland the Hebrew-oriented wind spread like wildfire. The third
group favored speaking the local language. I guess that in 1900 this group
was a small minority, but I also guess that as the 20th century wore on,
this group grew.

By the way, I'd like to point out an interesting bit of Jewish Lithuanian
demography. In Lithuania in about 1775 there were about 75,000 Jews.
During the 19th century the Jewish population grew exponentially so that
by World War II, one million Jews had emigrated >from Lithuania. Only 250,000
remained. The Nazis succeeded in murdering 230,000 of these; 10,000 somehow
survived in Lithuania (in or out of concentration camps - I don't know),
and another 10,000 survived in Russia, having fled there before the war.

Andi Alpert Ziegelman


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania LITHUANIAN VS. RUSSIAN VS. YIDDISH VS. HEBREW/ LANGUAGE #lithuania

Ziegelman <zieg_exp@...>
 

Here is my understanding of the language conundrum of our Lithuanian
ancestors:

Background:
Till after World War I, Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine were part of the
Russian Empire, and nearly all Jews living in the Russian Empire were
limited by law to live in these areas, which were called the Pale of
Settlement (of the Jews). Thus during the 19th and early 20th centuries
the official language in the pale was Russian. Therefore the language
of instruction in public schools was Russian.

In the period of which I am speaking, at home Lithuanians spoke
Lithuanian, Poles (who lived in Lithuania) spoke Polish, Russians
(who lived in Lithuania) spoke Russian, and Jews spoke Yiddish.
During the 19th century, for various reasons, for Jews the walls between
these languages began to crack. For example, Russian gained adherents by
dint of the Jewish cantonists forced to serve in the tsar's army for 25
years who spoke Russian when they returned to their villages, or took up
residence outside the pale. Jewish boys who were forced by the Russian
authorities to attend public school came out speaking Russian.

And in the late 19th century when in the Jewish community there was no
provision for schooling for Jewish girls, even girls >from religious homes
voluntarily attended public schools where all the instruction was in Russian
(like my grandmother, Simcha/Celia nee Alperovitch Alperovitch, >from Vileika,
Vilna Guberniya, born 1885, who lived in Lithuania, spoke Yiddish, and knew
Russian but not Lithuanian).

Furthermore, the second half of the 19th century saw a Jewish NATIONAL
renaissance which brought to life lashon ha-kodesh, Hebrew, through the
development of a secular literature written in Hebrew, enabling Jews who
knew biblical Hebrew to now read works on modern themes - in Hebrew.

Thus - Till about 1900 the first language (the native tongue) of our
ancestors was Yiddish. But Russian was making inroads. In the late 19th
century I've noticed that in the pale, a few city Jews gave their children
Russian names (on a Revision List see at least one 1880-1890 Vilkomir
Russian-named Weissbrot family).

After World War I, Lithuania and Poland gained their independence >from
Russia (Poland had already had a degree of independence >from Russia also
before World War I). Believe it or not, part of Lithuania, the Vilna
guberniya, was taken over by Poland. And so, after World War I in the
Lithuania-ruled part of Lithuania, the Lithuanian language replaced Russian
as the official language, while in the Poland-ruled part, Polish became the
official language.

In the 20th century, the Jews were divided into three groups. The first
group sought Jewish "national" autonomy in Lithuania; it developed a
Yiddish school system and sought dedicated "Jewish" seats in the Lithuanian
parliament. The second group had real Jewish national aspirations. Hebrew
was its flagship language, and this group developed Zionist Hebrew-teaching
schools, youth groups, etc. Its goals were a real innovation, and in the
pale and in Poland the Hebrew-oriented wind spread like wildfire. The third
group favored speaking the local language. I guess that in 1900 this group
was a small minority, but I also guess that as the 20th century wore on,
this group grew.

By the way, I'd like to point out an interesting bit of Jewish Lithuanian
demography. In Lithuania in about 1775 there were about 75,000 Jews.
During the 19th century the Jewish population grew exponentially so that
by World War II, one million Jews had emigrated >from Lithuania. Only 250,000
remained. The Nazis succeeded in murdering 230,000 of these; 10,000 somehow
survived in Lithuania (in or out of concentration camps - I don't know),
and another 10,000 survived in Russia, having fled there before the war.

Andi Alpert Ziegelman


Re: location of Labetz #general

Chantal Auerbach <chantal.auerbach@...>
 

HI , just saw your email.... I went to school with someone whose surname
was Labetz.... they were (the family originally >from Poland) are you
sure that you are not looking for the surname instead of the town?

I could maybe try to contact her if you would like ... I believe I still
have her email address...

Chantal

In looking at the manifest for a possible ancestor, it shows him coming from
Labetz. JewishGen doesn't seem to show a town with this name. Any ideas
where it might be located?
Thank you.
Jania Sommers


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen RE: location of Labetz #general

Chantal Auerbach <chantal.auerbach@...>
 

HI , just saw your email.... I went to school with someone whose surname
was Labetz.... they were (the family originally >from Poland) are you
sure that you are not looking for the surname instead of the town?

I could maybe try to contact her if you would like ... I believe I still
have her email address...

Chantal

In looking at the manifest for a possible ancestor, it shows him coming from
Labetz. JewishGen doesn't seem to show a town with this name. Any ideas
where it might be located?
Thank you.
Jania Sommers


Re: Danzig records #general

Anita Springer <aspringer@...>
 

Danzig records are now kept by the Polish State Archives. I have had
success accessing old German records in the Polish archives by hiring a
German-speaking Polish researcher to go and read through them for me.
I believe that writing to the Polish archives for information yourself
would not be likely to result in success; I believe they are not able to
provide any genealogical research help for reasons of being generally
understaffed and poorly paid.

Anita Springer, Newton MA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Danzig records #general

Anita Springer <aspringer@...>
 

Danzig records are now kept by the Polish State Archives. I have had
success accessing old German records in the Polish archives by hiring a
German-speaking Polish researcher to go and read through them for me.
I believe that writing to the Polish archives for information yourself
would not be likely to result in success; I believe they are not able to
provide any genealogical research help for reasons of being generally
understaffed and poorly paid.

Anita Springer, Newton MA


Re: FW: Gdansk/Danzig question #general

Dick Plotz
 

Gary Holtzman responded to Terri:

"Terri " < terrib@sprintmail.com > wrote:

Hello, I have a relative who died in Danzig/Gdansk around 1926-1935.
Can someone tell me if Danzig/Gdansk records for 1926-1935 would be
located with Polish records, Ukrainian records, German records, etc.

Thanks,

Tom Erribe
At that time, Danzig was a free city in customs union with Poland, but
generally tied toGermany in administrative/bureaucratic matters. I would
think Germany would be your best bet for records, unless the free city
kept its own (which would seem at least to be a possibility).

Gary Holtzman
The Jewish records >from Danzig have been preserved in the Central
Archives for the History of the Jewish People in Jerusalem. They are
available to researchers there. They do include vital records
parallel to the civil vital records, though I don't know just what
details are included.

Dick Plotz
Providence RI USA


Re: Speaking Lithuanian #lithuania

Bronstein Family <sygaa@...>
 

I have been following the discussion on language with quite
some interest.

It seems to me that with the rise of nationalism in Eastern Europe,
the use of local languages increasinglybecame a sign of loyalty.
My grandfather, Mayer Shulman who was born in Panevezys in 1883 knew
Russian (to a certain extent) and Yiddish. I grew up surrounded by
his contemporaries and other members of the Litvisher Ferband in
Philadelphia and almost none of them knew Lithuanian. After coming
on Aliyah, I met the next generation of Litvaks and while Yiddish was
their mother tongue, they all knew Lithuanian.

I have heard parallel stories aboutlanguage >from Jews who came from
Czechoslovakia where Czech & Slovak were in competition with German,
which had been the preferred (besides Yiddish)language of most of the
Jews.

Shalom Bronstein, Jerusalem
Researching - SHULMAN/SHILLMAN - Panevezys; BLOCH - Krekanava (Lithuania);
the DIMMERMAN, BECK & GELMAN families >from Ostrog & vicinity (Volhyn);
BRONSTEIN, BROWNSTEIN, RUNSTEIN, ROCHMANN - Kishinev (Moldava); GOLDSTEIN -
Iasi (Romania) - those who came to America all settled in Philadelphia;
GOLDZWEIG & LETZTER - Cholojow/Uzlovoye (Eastern Galicia/Ukraine)

-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Ashkenazy [mailto:tia@vdn.ca]
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:53 AM
To: LitvakSIG
Subject: [litvaksig] Speaking Lithuanian

I am somewhat surprized by Eilat Gordin Levitan's post. My background is
similar to that of her father-in-law (Dr. Ruven Levitan) who, she says
*barely* spoke Lithuanian. I too had a German nanny and spoke
German at home. I also read the Yiddish newspaper as well as an English
boys' magazine. However I spoke Lithuanian well and most of my reading
of books was in Lithuanian. I attended the other one of the two Hebrew
schools, Schwabe.

In general, this is an interesting subject. What was the attitude of
pre-War Lithuanian Jews toward the Lithuanian language? Apparantly
proficiency in that language was not promoted. Was that wrong? Did that
cause alienation?

Ted Ashkenazy
tia@vdn.ca
Montreal


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: FW: Gdansk/Danzig question #general

Dick Plotz
 

Gary Holtzman responded to Terri:

"Terri " < terrib@sprintmail.com > wrote:

Hello, I have a relative who died in Danzig/Gdansk around 1926-1935.
Can someone tell me if Danzig/Gdansk records for 1926-1935 would be
located with Polish records, Ukrainian records, German records, etc.

Thanks,

Tom Erribe
At that time, Danzig was a free city in customs union with Poland, but
generally tied toGermany in administrative/bureaucratic matters. I would
think Germany would be your best bet for records, unless the free city
kept its own (which would seem at least to be a possibility).

Gary Holtzman
The Jewish records >from Danzig have been preserved in the Central
Archives for the History of the Jewish People in Jerusalem. They are
available to researchers there. They do include vital records
parallel to the civil vital records, though I don't know just what
details are included.

Dick Plotz
Providence RI USA


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania RE: Speaking Lithuanian #lithuania

Bronstein Family <sygaa@...>
 

I have been following the discussion on language with quite
some interest.

It seems to me that with the rise of nationalism in Eastern Europe,
the use of local languages increasinglybecame a sign of loyalty.
My grandfather, Mayer Shulman who was born in Panevezys in 1883 knew
Russian (to a certain extent) and Yiddish. I grew up surrounded by
his contemporaries and other members of the Litvisher Ferband in
Philadelphia and almost none of them knew Lithuanian. After coming
on Aliyah, I met the next generation of Litvaks and while Yiddish was
their mother tongue, they all knew Lithuanian.

I have heard parallel stories aboutlanguage >from Jews who came from
Czechoslovakia where Czech & Slovak were in competition with German,
which had been the preferred (besides Yiddish)language of most of the
Jews.

Shalom Bronstein, Jerusalem
Researching - SHULMAN/SHILLMAN - Panevezys; BLOCH - Krekanava (Lithuania);
the DIMMERMAN, BECK & GELMAN families >from Ostrog & vicinity (Volhyn);
BRONSTEIN, BROWNSTEIN, RUNSTEIN, ROCHMANN - Kishinev (Moldava); GOLDSTEIN -
Iasi (Romania) - those who came to America all settled in Philadelphia;
GOLDZWEIG & LETZTER - Cholojow/Uzlovoye (Eastern Galicia/Ukraine)

-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Ashkenazy [mailto:tia@vdn.ca]
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:53 AM
To: LitvakSIG
Subject: [litvaksig] Speaking Lithuanian

I am somewhat surprized by Eilat Gordin Levitan's post. My background is
similar to that of her father-in-law (Dr. Ruven Levitan) who, she says
*barely* spoke Lithuanian. I too had a German nanny and spoke
German at home. I also read the Yiddish newspaper as well as an English
boys' magazine. However I spoke Lithuanian well and most of my reading
of books was in Lithuanian. I attended the other one of the two Hebrew
schools, Schwabe.

In general, this is an interesting subject. What was the attitude of
pre-War Lithuanian Jews toward the Lithuanian language? Apparantly
proficiency in that language was not promoted. Was that wrong? Did that
cause alienation?

Ted Ashkenazy
tia@vdn.ca
Montreal