Date   

Re: Klepperle / Klepplerer #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

David Laufer >from Sydney writes:
"On row 125 of the Vienna marriage record that appears
in View Mate 6526:

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6526

is the marriage of Eduard LAUFER to Francisca
KLEPPERLE. However, in the far right columns the
surname is spelt KLEPPLERE or KLEPPLERER.

I am aware that spellings do change over time and
place, but to find different spellings in the same
document is a bit surprising to me."

This is a very good example of why one should reply to
some Viewmate queries directly to the SIG list and not
privately, as it leads to interesting findings.

I have checked the 1793 census of Bohemia [as the name
sounded so "1793 Bohemian" to me!] and was rewarded
with a direct hit. Perversely, only after that, did I
look at the Viewmate and could see I was right, as the
bride of Eduard Laufer did come >from Hermanuv Mestec
in the Chrudimer Kreis, Bohemia! However, I am not so
sure that the alternate spellings David sees are as he
records them above. It could be a slip of the pen re
Fanni on the far right.

Believe it or not, there is a Sara KLEPPERIN living in
house No 18 in Hermanuv Mestec. She is a widow with
two sons Abraham and Isak - both single - and two
daughters, Barbara and Elisabeth.

I presume Jakob KLEPPERLE is the son of either Abraham
and Isak KLEPPER{LE}. Jakob could have married the
daughter of the only FISCHER family in Hermanuv
Mestec. David FISCHER lived in House No 36. He was a
Posamentierer. His wife was Sara - his two sons Beer
and Abraham and two daughters Anna and Rosalia.

The date of the marriage of Francisca to Eduard Laufer
in Vienna was 1859. Francisca, who was 27 at the time
of her marriage, was born in 1832 - so we can assume
her father Jakob KLEPPERLE was 25 at that time and was
born in 1807. Thus Abraham and Isaak KLEPPER{LE} in
the 1793 were young teenagers, who probably were
playmates of the FISCHER children in House No 36.

In the whole of Bohemia [Prague excluded], there is
only one other person with a similar name and she is
another widow called Rebeka KLEPLERIN. There are no
children mentioned. She is living on alms [charity] in
House No 9 in the town of Polna, Caslauer Kreis

We now have widows KLEPPERIN in Hermanuv Mestec and
KLEPLERIN in Polna.

Would *KLEPPERIN* be the feminine form of KLEPPERER or
KLEPPER or KLEPPERLE? I pose the same question for
*KLEPLERIN*. It would be very clumsy to say
KLEPPERLEIN or KLEPPERERIN.

The burial of 79 year old Rosalia KLEPERLE - KLEPERER
who died on 18.02.1882 in Vienna {ZF Tor I 6/22/44}
is important. She was born in 1803 and could be the
widow of Jakob and and the mother of Francisca.
NB: there is only one *P* in the name in Vienna, so
another spelling change. The name in Bohemia was
probably unchanged as KLE{P}PERLE but in Vienna it
converted to KLEPERER, a more Germanic-sounding name.

The first name, Rosalia, is immaterial in the search
for Francisca's mother - I have written about this
many times. Only more research in Prague and Vienna
will prove these hypotheses.

In the fourth column of the Viewmate marriage document
you will also see references to permission to marry
obtained in the Chrudimer Kreis in May 1859. These
will probably also be registered in the Prague
records.

I suspect that the KLEPLER in Polna is a distinct
name, but KLEPLER may also be a mistransliteration
from the original census. This brings in more degrees
of uncertainty.

Celia Male [UK].


Re: Joyce and the Jews of Dublin Was: First Jews in England--and Ireland #general

ben.forman <ben.forman@...>
 

Ok Genners

I've been avoiding joining this conversation with this point
for fear of being laughed off the list, but ...... I
happened to switch on the UK TV channel ITV2 last weekend
and caught a repeat of the 80's show Robin Of Sherwood. This
particular episode which I don't recall seeing before was
about a pogrom in the Jewish population of nottingham
(presumably as this is where robin hood is set) according to
the internet movie database it is: "The Children of Israel"
Episode: #2.2 - 16 March 1985.
The main Jewish family it centers around were called De
Talmont, and when threatened by the Sherrif of Nottingham
(although Sherwood forest does extend to south yorkshire)
the father of the family Joshua de Talmont says that they
are protected as they are poperty of the king.

Please don't laugh to hard :) I just thought I'd mention it
:)

shabbat shalom

Ben Forman


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: Klepperle / Klepplerer #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

David Laufer >from Sydney writes:
"On row 125 of the Vienna marriage record that appears
in View Mate 6526:

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6526

is the marriage of Eduard LAUFER to Francisca
KLEPPERLE. However, in the far right columns the
surname is spelt KLEPPLERE or KLEPPLERER.

I am aware that spellings do change over time and
place, but to find different spellings in the same
document is a bit surprising to me."

This is a very good example of why one should reply to
some Viewmate queries directly to the SIG list and not
privately, as it leads to interesting findings.

I have checked the 1793 census of Bohemia [as the name
sounded so "1793 Bohemian" to me!] and was rewarded
with a direct hit. Perversely, only after that, did I
look at the Viewmate and could see I was right, as the
bride of Eduard Laufer did come >from Hermanuv Mestec
in the Chrudimer Kreis, Bohemia! However, I am not so
sure that the alternate spellings David sees are as he
records them above. It could be a slip of the pen re
Fanni on the far right.

Believe it or not, there is a Sara KLEPPERIN living in
house No 18 in Hermanuv Mestec. She is a widow with
two sons Abraham and Isak - both single - and two
daughters, Barbara and Elisabeth.

I presume Jakob KLEPPERLE is the son of either Abraham
and Isak KLEPPER{LE}. Jakob could have married the
daughter of the only FISCHER family in Hermanuv
Mestec. David FISCHER lived in House No 36. He was a
Posamentierer. His wife was Sara - his two sons Beer
and Abraham and two daughters Anna and Rosalia.

The date of the marriage of Francisca to Eduard Laufer
in Vienna was 1859. Francisca, who was 27 at the time
of her marriage, was born in 1832 - so we can assume
her father Jakob KLEPPERLE was 25 at that time and was
born in 1807. Thus Abraham and Isaak KLEPPER{LE} in
the 1793 were young teenagers, who probably were
playmates of the FISCHER children in House No 36.

In the whole of Bohemia [Prague excluded], there is
only one other person with a similar name and she is
another widow called Rebeka KLEPLERIN. There are no
children mentioned. She is living on alms [charity] in
House No 9 in the town of Polna, Caslauer Kreis

We now have widows KLEPPERIN in Hermanuv Mestec and
KLEPLERIN in Polna.

Would *KLEPPERIN* be the feminine form of KLEPPERER or
KLEPPER or KLEPPERLE? I pose the same question for
*KLEPLERIN*. It would be very clumsy to say
KLEPPERLEIN or KLEPPERERIN.

The burial of 79 year old Rosalia KLEPERLE - KLEPERER
who died on 18.02.1882 in Vienna {ZF Tor I 6/22/44}
is important. She was born in 1803 and could be the
widow of Jakob and and the mother of Francisca.
NB: there is only one *P* in the name in Vienna, so
another spelling change. The name in Bohemia was
probably unchanged as KLE{P}PERLE but in Vienna it
converted to KLEPERER, a more Germanic-sounding name.

The first name, Rosalia, is immaterial in the search
for Francisca's mother - I have written about this
many times. Only more research in Prague and Vienna
will prove these hypotheses.

In the fourth column of the Viewmate marriage document
you will also see references to permission to marry
obtained in the Chrudimer Kreis in May 1859. These
will probably also be registered in the Prague
records.

I suspect that the KLEPLER in Polna is a distinct
name, but KLEPLER may also be a mistransliteration
from the original census. This brings in more degrees
of uncertainty.

Celia Male [UK].


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Joyce and the Jews of Dublin Was: First Jews in England--and Ireland #general

ben.forman <ben.forman@...>
 

Ok Genners

I've been avoiding joining this conversation with this point
for fear of being laughed off the list, but ...... I
happened to switch on the UK TV channel ITV2 last weekend
and caught a repeat of the 80's show Robin Of Sherwood. This
particular episode which I don't recall seeing before was
about a pogrom in the Jewish population of nottingham
(presumably as this is where robin hood is set) according to
the internet movie database it is: "The Children of Israel"
Episode: #2.2 - 16 March 1985.
The main Jewish family it centers around were called De
Talmont, and when threatened by the Sherrif of Nottingham
(although Sherwood forest does extend to south yorkshire)
the father of the family Joshua de Talmont says that they
are protected as they are poperty of the king.

Please don't laugh to hard :) I just thought I'd mention it
:)

shabbat shalom

Ben Forman


Shanghai-Goldstrom-Trepman #general

Rose Feldman <rosef@...>
 

Until now I only had an address for 1943 in the Shanghai Ghetto for
Bronislawa Trepman >from Warsaw. Last week while going through the Arlosen
files on Yad Vashem's intranet (available only at Yad Vahsem and Beit Volyn
in Giovatyaim) I found two cards for Bronislawa. One >from the NY Joint and
one >from the Paris Joint Offices that she sailed in 1947 >from Shanghai and
her destination was I. Goldstrom in Paris, France. We had not found this
material among the JOINT materials in Israel.
Does anyone recognize the name Goldstrom in Paris in 1947?
Rose Feldman
GITNER, REZNIK Litin & Kalinovka Ukraine
EPSTEIN, BOYARKSY Ruzhany, Kossovo, Mscibow Belarus
TREPPER, TREPMAN, FELDMAN, LICHT, SOICHER, SLOVIK, SZPERBER, ORENSTEIN
Warsaw Poland


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Shanghai-Goldstrom-Trepman #general

Rose Feldman <rosef@...>
 

Until now I only had an address for 1943 in the Shanghai Ghetto for
Bronislawa Trepman >from Warsaw. Last week while going through the Arlosen
files on Yad Vashem's intranet (available only at Yad Vahsem and Beit Volyn
in Giovatyaim) I found two cards for Bronislawa. One >from the NY Joint and
one >from the Paris Joint Offices that she sailed in 1947 >from Shanghai and
her destination was I. Goldstrom in Paris, France. We had not found this
material among the JOINT materials in Israel.
Does anyone recognize the name Goldstrom in Paris in 1947?
Rose Feldman
GITNER, REZNIK Litin & Kalinovka Ukraine
EPSTEIN, BOYARKSY Ruzhany, Kossovo, Mscibow Belarus
TREPPER, TREPMAN, FELDMAN, LICHT, SOICHER, SLOVIK, SZPERBER, ORENSTEIN
Warsaw Poland


Dan Rottenberg's email Address #general

Yisrael Asper
 

Assuming he has one what is Dan Rottenberg's email Address?
Yisrael Asper
yisraelasper@comcast.net
Pittsburgh

MODERATOR NOTE: Please send any contact information privately.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Dan Rottenberg's email Address #general

Yisrael Asper
 

Assuming he has one what is Dan Rottenberg's email Address?
Yisrael Asper
yisraelasper@comcast.net
Pittsburgh

MODERATOR NOTE: Please send any contact information privately.


Re: Jews in England: Jewish star with a cross inside #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"Avrum Lapin" <avrum223@verizon.net> wrote in message

There is a large Mogen David stained window on a large church (Santa
Crocce) in Florence. The best explanation is that at the time the church
was designed "looks" were more important than being PC and the architect
went for what looked good (You can see a picture on the cover of Rick
Steve's book Italy 2005)
See
http://tinyurl.com/c42zo
for a picture of Santa Crocce. It is my own view that such stars are not
that unusual. It is the easiest to draw geometric shape which (the circle
and the hexagon are easily drawn with a piece of string.

I did a Google search on "6-pointed star" and church, I get 1,600 results.
70,000 results for "Star of David" and church.

There is an article
http://tinyurl.com/dossv

Apparently there is a Star of David in
http://www.stmarks.on.ca/about/windows.html in St Mark's Church, Brantford,
Ontario which is acknowledged as such. I would say that one of the donors is
either Jewish or of Jewish origin.

This church supplier http://www.churchstewardship.com/coinfolders.htm sells
an offering box with a 6-pointed star on each side.

According to nationmaster.com the Star of David is used by the Mormons.

See also this church
http://buten.net/max/sicily/55_siracusa/StarOfDavid0342.html

See also the Bolton Priory Church in the UK
http://www.enicholl.com/bolton-priory-church/html-files/east-wall-paintings.htm
which is explicitly described as the Star of David to represent the lineage
of Jesus.

Ditto the regimental church of the Black Watch Regiment of Canada.
--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)

MODERATOR NOTE: The article at http://tinyurl.com/dossv presents one
Christian's description of the Star of David and also refers to the
Messianic version with the cross. If anyone has historical information
about the star with the cross that would help explain why it would
appear in an old cemetery (as mentioned by Dorothy Auerbach Rivers),
please send it in.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Jews in England: Jewish star with a cross inside #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"Avrum Lapin" <avrum223@verizon.net> wrote in message

There is a large Mogen David stained window on a large church (Santa
Crocce) in Florence. The best explanation is that at the time the church
was designed "looks" were more important than being PC and the architect
went for what looked good (You can see a picture on the cover of Rick
Steve's book Italy 2005)
See
http://tinyurl.com/c42zo
for a picture of Santa Crocce. It is my own view that such stars are not
that unusual. It is the easiest to draw geometric shape which (the circle
and the hexagon are easily drawn with a piece of string.

I did a Google search on "6-pointed star" and church, I get 1,600 results.
70,000 results for "Star of David" and church.

There is an article
http://tinyurl.com/dossv

Apparently there is a Star of David in
http://www.stmarks.on.ca/about/windows.html in St Mark's Church, Brantford,
Ontario which is acknowledged as such. I would say that one of the donors is
either Jewish or of Jewish origin.

This church supplier http://www.churchstewardship.com/coinfolders.htm sells
an offering box with a 6-pointed star on each side.

According to nationmaster.com the Star of David is used by the Mormons.

See also this church
http://buten.net/max/sicily/55_siracusa/StarOfDavid0342.html

See also the Bolton Priory Church in the UK
http://www.enicholl.com/bolton-priory-church/html-files/east-wall-paintings.htm
which is explicitly described as the Star of David to represent the lineage
of Jesus.

Ditto the regimental church of the Black Watch Regiment of Canada.
--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)

MODERATOR NOTE: The article at http://tinyurl.com/dossv presents one
Christian's description of the Star of David and also refers to the
Messianic version with the cross. If anyone has historical information
about the star with the cross that would help explain why it would
appear in an old cemetery (as mentioned by Dorothy Auerbach Rivers),
please send it in.


Re: Jewish or English? #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 7/21/2005 3:12:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
tulse04-news@yahoo.co.uk writes:

< If we go back to the American situation, before 1871 Germany didn't exist
and probably most of the other European nation states didn't exist. >

==Germany did not exist as a unified nation before then but it did exist as
a cultural, linguistic and national area. In those respects it was quite
similar to the various colonies and later states that together developed into
the United States. Certainly England/Britain, France, Netherlands, Russia,
Austria-Hungary, Sweden, and Switzerland had existed by then as nation states
for some centuries, and even Italy had by then become a united monarchy.

Michael Bernet, New York


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Jewish or English? #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 7/21/2005 3:12:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
tulse04-news@yahoo.co.uk writes:

< If we go back to the American situation, before 1871 Germany didn't exist
and probably most of the other European nation states didn't exist. >

==Germany did not exist as a unified nation before then but it did exist as
a cultural, linguistic and national area. In those respects it was quite
similar to the various colonies and later states that together developed into
the United States. Certainly England/Britain, France, Netherlands, Russia,
Austria-Hungary, Sweden, and Switzerland had existed by then as nation states
for some centuries, and even Italy had by then become a united monarchy.

Michael Bernet, New York


1911 Canadian census online #general

Gayle Schlissel Riley <key2pst@...>
 

I found my grandafther on the 1911 Canadian census..You need to know the area,
county or town..gayle >from San Gabriel, Ca

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/1911/index-e.html


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen 1911 Canadian census online #general

Gayle Schlissel Riley <key2pst@...>
 

I found my grandafther on the 1911 Canadian census..You need to know the area,
county or town..gayle >from San Gabriel, Ca

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/1911/index-e.html


Re: Jews in England: Jewish star with a cross inside #general

Lisa Lepore <llepore@...>
 

Dorothy -

I thought your question was interesting, so I went
looking for an answer. I found pages with religious
jewelry that identify it as a symbol of the Messianics.

I didn't know about them, so I found this site - one
among many after searching at google for messianic.

This page has a brief definition of Messianic religious groups -
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsmessianic2.htm?terms=messianic
[or http://tinyurl.com/c85w3 -- Mod.]

Apparently there was a Messianic movement in Europe in the 1600's
http://rabbiwein.com/column-209.html

Maybe someone else can shed more light on this subject.

Lisa
llepore@comcast.net
Mendon, MA

Apropos to this subject I'd like to ask if anyone has knowledge of a Jewish
star with a cross inside? I found this engraved on a tombstone in Wales.
The graveyard was very, very old, overgrown with nettles and other weeds.

I was struck dumb by this sight. If I remember right the name on the stone
wasn't typically Jewish but that might not mean anything.

Many years later I saw the same symbol, a sixpointed star with a cross in
it, painted on the side of a hippy Volkswagon bus.

Dorothy AUERBACH Rivers

Tucson, Arizona USA
---
Sender: Dorothy Auerbach Rivers <dotvic@earthlink.net>


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Jews in England: Jewish star with a cross inside #general

Lisa Lepore <llepore@...>
 

Dorothy -

I thought your question was interesting, so I went
looking for an answer. I found pages with religious
jewelry that identify it as a symbol of the Messianics.

I didn't know about them, so I found this site - one
among many after searching at google for messianic.

This page has a brief definition of Messianic religious groups -
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsmessianic2.htm?terms=messianic
[or http://tinyurl.com/c85w3 -- Mod.]

Apparently there was a Messianic movement in Europe in the 1600's
http://rabbiwein.com/column-209.html

Maybe someone else can shed more light on this subject.

Lisa
llepore@comcast.net
Mendon, MA

Apropos to this subject I'd like to ask if anyone has knowledge of a Jewish
star with a cross inside? I found this engraved on a tombstone in Wales.
The graveyard was very, very old, overgrown with nettles and other weeds.

I was struck dumb by this sight. If I remember right the name on the stone
wasn't typically Jewish but that might not mean anything.

Many years later I saw the same symbol, a sixpointed star with a cross in
it, painted on the side of a hippy Volkswagon bus.

Dorothy AUERBACH Rivers

Tucson, Arizona USA
---
Sender: Dorothy Auerbach Rivers <dotvic@earthlink.net>


Re: 1911 Canada Census: Montreal disricts? #general

Alan Raskin <araskin@...>
 

bud484bg@aol.com wrote:
The 1911 Canada Census is wonderful, except that there is no name
search, and the only information I have is that my Rosner family came
from Romania after 1901 to reside in Montreal. I have randomly gone
through some of the Montreal pages but have not yet found any that are
Jewish districts. Could some one out there give me a clue? Each
district search requires a pdf download and searching through every
page for Montreal residents is time consuming.

I would really appreciate your help.

Beatrice Markel
Redondo Beach, California
You might want to send a request to the Toronto Public Library's Answerline:

http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/ask_adu_index.jsp#form

If you give them a name and up to three dates, they will do a city
directory lookup and give you back an address. They could probably also
tell you the matching census district.

Unfortunately, until the Automated Genealogy group gets around to
indexing the names for the 1911 census, as they did for the 1901 census
(http://automatedgenealogy.com/index.html), after getting the district
you'll still have to go through the census images one at a time.

- Alan

Researching: COHEN/KON: Bodzanow, Poland/Montreal
GARBER: Montreal
HART: Montreal/Russia
RASKIN: Montreal/Russia


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: 1911 Canada Census: Montreal disricts? #general

Alan Raskin <araskin@...>
 

bud484bg@aol.com wrote:
The 1911 Canada Census is wonderful, except that there is no name
search, and the only information I have is that my Rosner family came
from Romania after 1901 to reside in Montreal. I have randomly gone
through some of the Montreal pages but have not yet found any that are
Jewish districts. Could some one out there give me a clue? Each
district search requires a pdf download and searching through every
page for Montreal residents is time consuming.

I would really appreciate your help.

Beatrice Markel
Redondo Beach, California
You might want to send a request to the Toronto Public Library's Answerline:

http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/ask_adu_index.jsp#form

If you give them a name and up to three dates, they will do a city
directory lookup and give you back an address. They could probably also
tell you the matching census district.

Unfortunately, until the Automated Genealogy group gets around to
indexing the names for the 1911 census, as they did for the 1901 census
(http://automatedgenealogy.com/index.html), after getting the district
you'll still have to go through the census images one at a time.

- Alan

Researching: COHEN/KON: Bodzanow, Poland/Montreal
GARBER: Montreal
HART: Montreal/Russia
RASKIN: Montreal/Russia


Padawer Kohen branch #general

Yisrael Asper
 

The Padawer Kohen branch of my friend appears suspiciously similar to Dan
Rottenberg's "Finding Our Fathers" book's description of the name Padawer
"French family whose name is derived >from Padua, Italy, its original home.
The family later migrated to Poland before moving to France." She's only two
generations French but she did talk of Padawer relatives having moved to
Polish Galicia. She said that the family in Italy lived in Padua and was
descended >from the Maharam MiPadua. Her Italian side she said was exclusively
Ashkenazic Italian. I don't know if she means just not Sephardic Italian or
if she means the Ashkenazic community that migrated south to Italy. She may not
know of the three division Italian system of Ashkenazic, Sehardic and Original
Italian. She also may not know of any Sephardim who may have leaked into her
family in the more distant past on her family tree if any did. I am the main
investigator for her. My problem is I don't know Dan Rottenberg's source or
have at least his email address to try and investigate if there is a link.
Yisrael Asper
yisraelasper@comcast.net
Pittsburgh PA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Padawer Kohen branch #general

Yisrael Asper
 

The Padawer Kohen branch of my friend appears suspiciously similar to Dan
Rottenberg's "Finding Our Fathers" book's description of the name Padawer
"French family whose name is derived >from Padua, Italy, its original home.
The family later migrated to Poland before moving to France." She's only two
generations French but she did talk of Padawer relatives having moved to
Polish Galicia. She said that the family in Italy lived in Padua and was
descended >from the Maharam MiPadua. Her Italian side she said was exclusively
Ashkenazic Italian. I don't know if she means just not Sephardic Italian or
if she means the Ashkenazic community that migrated south to Italy. She may not
know of the three division Italian system of Ashkenazic, Sehardic and Original
Italian. She also may not know of any Sephardim who may have leaked into her
family in the more distant past on her family tree if any did. I am the main
investigator for her. My problem is I don't know Dan Rottenberg's source or
have at least his email address to try and investigate if there is a link.
Yisrael Asper
yisraelasper@comcast.net
Pittsburgh PA