Date   

Re: Census puzzles #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:58:11 UTC, celiamale@yahoo.com (Celia Male)
opined:

re PRWR: I am surprised Martin Kleiner and Stan
Goodman did not refer to my reply earlier this week on
the letters PRWR on US census forms, where I suggested
following the discussion in http://tinyurl.com/csv3o
Please do not be surprised or offended. I don't read every posted
article, and I don't suppose anybody else does.

and where a possible and perhaps more plausible
solution is proposed: PR...ussian W...estphalia
R..hineland.

This is a well-defined, historic area of Germany and
appears on the best-known search engine if you enter
keywords such as Prussia{n}, Rhine/Rhineland and
Westphalia in various combinations.

No enumerator could/would write out these 27 letters
in full - an agreed acronym was the obvious answer.
For all I know, you may be right. Your hypothesis raises the question,
however, why the census cared about "Prussian Westphalia Rhineland".
To the best of my knowledge, enumerators asking for Place of Birth
expected to hear an answer defining a sovereignty. The reason that
"Austria" appears on enumration forms for birthplaces in Galicia,
Transcarpathian Ruthenia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina is not that it is a
shorthand timesaver, but that Austria was the sovereign in those
places, which is why it is possible to speak of the Austrian Empire
(that it was also a Hungarian Empire is a fiction). It is unimportant
that Prussian Westphalia Rhineland was a "well-defined historic area";
what counts is who/what was the sovereign. I do not know the answer to
this question, and I forbear to investigate it on Google or elsewhere,
for reasons of lack of time.

If I remember correctly, this acronym appeared on census forms in the
early twentieth century; did "Prussian Westphalia Rhineland" form a
single sovereign political unit at that time, not under any other
sovereignty? Did enumerators make similar notations for other German
lander? Or does PR WR stand alone in this sense?

All that can be resolved by asking the Bureau of the Census the
meaning of the acronym. It isn't a hard thing to do.

Has anyone ever seen the words written out in full on
a census form? Or alternatively, is there anyone out
there whose ancestors definitely came >from this region
and who has seen the letters PRWR on their census
listings?

We know that *Austria* was used on U.S. census forms
for the wider Habsburg Empire including Galicia,
Transcarpathian Ruthenia and Bosnia Herzegovina -
imagine writing those out!. Again *Austria* is a
shorthand version of a much longer letter sequence.

I would be interested to hear if there are any other
*shorthand locations* found on these census forms.
As I have tried to explain above, "Austria" has nothing to do
with shorthand. If "Prussian Rhineland Westphalia" was
in the Prussian Empire, the birthplace would have been recorded as
"Prussia", just as Galician birthplaces were recorded as "Austria". If
"Prussian Westphalia Rhineland" was independent (i.e. had its own
army, coinage, law, and foreign relations), then it gets its own
rubric on enumeration forms. That is how the US Census works.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the
URL is: http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form there.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen re: Census puzzles #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:58:11 UTC, celiamale@yahoo.com (Celia Male)
opined:

re PRWR: I am surprised Martin Kleiner and Stan
Goodman did not refer to my reply earlier this week on
the letters PRWR on US census forms, where I suggested
following the discussion in http://tinyurl.com/csv3o
Please do not be surprised or offended. I don't read every posted
article, and I don't suppose anybody else does.

and where a possible and perhaps more plausible
solution is proposed: PR...ussian W...estphalia
R..hineland.

This is a well-defined, historic area of Germany and
appears on the best-known search engine if you enter
keywords such as Prussia{n}, Rhine/Rhineland and
Westphalia in various combinations.

No enumerator could/would write out these 27 letters
in full - an agreed acronym was the obvious answer.
For all I know, you may be right. Your hypothesis raises the question,
however, why the census cared about "Prussian Westphalia Rhineland".
To the best of my knowledge, enumerators asking for Place of Birth
expected to hear an answer defining a sovereignty. The reason that
"Austria" appears on enumration forms for birthplaces in Galicia,
Transcarpathian Ruthenia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina is not that it is a
shorthand timesaver, but that Austria was the sovereign in those
places, which is why it is possible to speak of the Austrian Empire
(that it was also a Hungarian Empire is a fiction). It is unimportant
that Prussian Westphalia Rhineland was a "well-defined historic area";
what counts is who/what was the sovereign. I do not know the answer to
this question, and I forbear to investigate it on Google or elsewhere,
for reasons of lack of time.

If I remember correctly, this acronym appeared on census forms in the
early twentieth century; did "Prussian Westphalia Rhineland" form a
single sovereign political unit at that time, not under any other
sovereignty? Did enumerators make similar notations for other German
lander? Or does PR WR stand alone in this sense?

All that can be resolved by asking the Bureau of the Census the
meaning of the acronym. It isn't a hard thing to do.

Has anyone ever seen the words written out in full on
a census form? Or alternatively, is there anyone out
there whose ancestors definitely came >from this region
and who has seen the letters PRWR on their census
listings?

We know that *Austria* was used on U.S. census forms
for the wider Habsburg Empire including Galicia,
Transcarpathian Ruthenia and Bosnia Herzegovina -
imagine writing those out!. Again *Austria* is a
shorthand version of a much longer letter sequence.

I would be interested to hear if there are any other
*shorthand locations* found on these census forms.
As I have tried to explain above, "Austria" has nothing to do
with shorthand. If "Prussian Rhineland Westphalia" was
in the Prussian Empire, the birthplace would have been recorded as
"Prussia", just as Galician birthplaces were recorded as "Austria". If
"Prussian Westphalia Rhineland" was independent (i.e. had its own
army, coinage, law, and foreign relations), then it gets its own
rubric on enumeration forms. That is how the US Census works.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the
URL is: http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form there.


Re: Census puzzles #general

Peter Zavon <pzavon@...>
 

"Celia Male" <celiamale@yahoo.com> wrote in part:


We know that *Austria* was used on U.S. census forms
for the wider Habsburg Empire including Galicia,
Transcarpathian Ruthenia and Bosnia Herzegovina -
imagine writing those out!. Again *Austria* is a
shorthand version of a much longer letter sequence.
I disagree. "Austria" was the name of the soverign entity, and later the
common short-hand term for any portion of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, much
as "Russia" was the name for everything in the Russian Empire and was the
shorthand term for the Soviet Union until the 1970s (at least in much of the
US) On the other hand, "PR...ussian W...estphalia R..hineland" is a
reference to a portion of the soverign entity, which was Prussia (prior to
the formation of the German Empire).

The US Census was interested in the soverign entity people came >from - until
the 1920 census when enumerators were supposed to get the provincial origin
when one of the broken Empires (Austria, Russia, etc.) was involved.

--
Peter Zavon
Penfield, NY


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Census puzzles #general

Peter Zavon <pzavon@...>
 

"Celia Male" <celiamale@yahoo.com> wrote in part:


We know that *Austria* was used on U.S. census forms
for the wider Habsburg Empire including Galicia,
Transcarpathian Ruthenia and Bosnia Herzegovina -
imagine writing those out!. Again *Austria* is a
shorthand version of a much longer letter sequence.
I disagree. "Austria" was the name of the soverign entity, and later the
common short-hand term for any portion of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, much
as "Russia" was the name for everything in the Russian Empire and was the
shorthand term for the Soviet Union until the 1970s (at least in much of the
US) On the other hand, "PR...ussian W...estphalia R..hineland" is a
reference to a portion of the soverign entity, which was Prussia (prior to
the formation of the German Empire).

The US Census was interested in the soverign entity people came >from - until
the 1920 census when enumerators were supposed to get the provincial origin
when one of the broken Empires (Austria, Russia, etc.) was involved.

--
Peter Zavon
Penfield, NY


Re: Census Puzzle #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"nitram" <martin@insytecorp.com> wrote
I did a search for prwr and found that this question has been going on
for years and I could find no definitive answer.

According to my search three things are possible (1) prwr means prewar.
This seemed to be disregarded immediately because it was found on 1910
census and how would anyone know that a war was coming ... hence pre
war makes no sense. (2) pr wr could mean prisoner of war, and (3) some
individuals found grmy prwr on census' >from people they were sure were
from Russia. Some think that it may be an early means of some machine
presorting code.
This has already been dealt with recently. It is discussed, for instance, in
the thread http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-DE/2003-02/1044169382.
--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Census Puzzle #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"nitram" <martin@insytecorp.com> wrote
I did a search for prwr and found that this question has been going on
for years and I could find no definitive answer.

According to my search three things are possible (1) prwr means prewar.
This seemed to be disregarded immediately because it was found on 1910
census and how would anyone know that a war was coming ... hence pre
war makes no sense. (2) pr wr could mean prisoner of war, and (3) some
individuals found grmy prwr on census' >from people they were sure were
from Russia. Some think that it may be an early means of some machine
presorting code.
This has already been dealt with recently. It is discussed, for instance, in
the thread http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-DE/2003-02/1044169382.
--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


Re: Census Puzzle #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"nitram" <martin@insytecorp.com> wrote
I did a search for prwr and found that this question has been going on
for years and I could find no definitive answer.

According to my search three things are possible (1) prwr means prewar.
This seemed to be disregarded immediately because it was found on 1910
census and how would anyone know that a war was coming ... hence pre
war makes no sense. (2) pr wr could mean prisoner of war, and (3) some
individuals found grmy prwr on census' >from people they were sure were
from Russia. Some think that it may be an early means of some machine
presorting code.
This Census data >from the 1910 Census for Missouri shows that there are two
columns - the first is for the birthplace of the individual and the second
is the father's birthplace.

PRWR comes under father's birthplace.

This website
http://mailman.acomp.usf.edu/pipermail/genealib/2001-December.txt >from the
Genealogical Librarian at the Greensboro Public Library in North Carolina
has a contribution which concluded that it has no valuable meaning for
genealogists and that it was an early attempt to machine sort some of the
listings.

There is quite a discussion where specialists in genealogy are taking part
and it might be worth having a look.

Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Census Puzzle #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"nitram" <martin@insytecorp.com> wrote
I did a search for prwr and found that this question has been going on
for years and I could find no definitive answer.

According to my search three things are possible (1) prwr means prewar.
This seemed to be disregarded immediately because it was found on 1910
census and how would anyone know that a war was coming ... hence pre
war makes no sense. (2) pr wr could mean prisoner of war, and (3) some
individuals found grmy prwr on census' >from people they were sure were
from Russia. Some think that it may be an early means of some machine
presorting code.
This Census data >from the 1910 Census for Missouri shows that there are two
columns - the first is for the birthplace of the individual and the second
is the father's birthplace.

PRWR comes under father's birthplace.

This website
http://mailman.acomp.usf.edu/pipermail/genealib/2001-December.txt >from the
Genealogical Librarian at the Greensboro Public Library in North Carolina
has a contribution which concluded that it has no valuable meaning for
genealogists and that it was an early attempt to machine sort some of the
listings.

There is quite a discussion where specialists in genealogy are taking part
and it might be worth having a look.

Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


New Steve Morse Website for Castle Garden Database #lithuania

Patriot Email <thegenie@...>
 

I see that Steve Morse must have been quite busy yesterday. The new
castlegarden.org website went online yesterday morning, and by late that
evening Steve had a one-step website for it.

Here are some of the things that you can do >from Steve's site which you
can't do when going to the castlegarden.org site directly. You can
specify all your parameters at one time. You can search on year of
birth. You can search on the passenger's age. You can specify how you
want your results sorted. And you are not confined to a mere 10 hits
per page but can specify how many hits you want.

Steve's One-Step website is at http://stevemorse.org
and his Castle Garden utility is the link called "Castle Garden Passengers"
in the Castle Garden section. He actually has two such links -- one fetches
the data >from ancestry.com which is a pay site and the other fetches the
data >from castlegarden.org which is free.

If you have any questions or comments, please&nbsp;address them to Steve
directly. His e-mail address is on the top of his website. Good hunting...


- Diane Jacobs
Somerset, NJ


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania New Steve Morse Website for Castle Garden Database #lithuania

Patriot Email <thegenie@...>
 

I see that Steve Morse must have been quite busy yesterday. The new
castlegarden.org website went online yesterday morning, and by late that
evening Steve had a one-step website for it.

Here are some of the things that you can do >from Steve's site which you
can't do when going to the castlegarden.org site directly. You can
specify all your parameters at one time. You can search on year of
birth. You can search on the passenger's age. You can specify how you
want your results sorted. And you are not confined to a mere 10 hits
per page but can specify how many hits you want.

Steve's One-Step website is at http://stevemorse.org
and his Castle Garden utility is the link called "Castle Garden Passengers"
in the Castle Garden section. He actually has two such links -- one fetches
the data >from ancestry.com which is a pay site and the other fetches the
data >from castlegarden.org which is free.

If you have any questions or comments, please&nbsp;address them to Steve
directly. His e-mail address is on the top of his website. Good hunting...


- Diane Jacobs
Somerset, NJ


Re: Interpreting Russian Orthodox verses Hebrew date in Archive Record. #lithuania

Steve Franklin <cryptozoomorphic@...>
 

A good site for calendar conversion is http://www.rosettacalendar.com/.

Our current calendar is the Gregorian Calendar. The Julian Calendar was the
preceding iteration enacted by Julius Caesar in 46 BCE and is the one used by
the Russian Orthodox Church and a few other Orthodox churches. Most Orthodox
churches have converted to the Gregorian Calendar except for movable feasts
(Easter).

Yes, at present the two calendars diverge by 13 days. Yes, 20 Heshvan 5675 was
27 October 1914 Julian (Russian) and 9 November 1914 Gregorian (Western).

Steve Franklin
http://www.lordbalto.com/
If my email ever bounces,
you can always contact me
at my website.

| There are 2 dates on a Keidan archive records for a
| birth. The Russian Orthodox date is 10/27/1914, but
| the Hebrew date is 20 Heshvan 5675 which is actually
| 11/09/1914. I was told that the Russian Orthodox dates
| during this time could be 13 days behind our current
| Julian Calendar.
|
| Is this correct? The Julian date is 13 days off in
| this record.


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Re: Interpreting Russian Orthodox verses Hebrew date in Archive Record. #lithuania

Steve Franklin <cryptozoomorphic@...>
 

A good site for calendar conversion is http://www.rosettacalendar.com/.

Our current calendar is the Gregorian Calendar. The Julian Calendar was the
preceding iteration enacted by Julius Caesar in 46 BCE and is the one used by
the Russian Orthodox Church and a few other Orthodox churches. Most Orthodox
churches have converted to the Gregorian Calendar except for movable feasts
(Easter).

Yes, at present the two calendars diverge by 13 days. Yes, 20 Heshvan 5675 was
27 October 1914 Julian (Russian) and 9 November 1914 Gregorian (Western).

Steve Franklin
http://www.lordbalto.com/
If my email ever bounces,
you can always contact me
at my website.

| There are 2 dates on a Keidan archive records for a
| birth. The Russian Orthodox date is 10/27/1914, but
| the Hebrew date is 20 Heshvan 5675 which is actually
| 11/09/1914. I was told that the Russian Orthodox dates
| during this time could be 13 days behind our current
| Julian Calendar.
|
| Is this correct? The Julian date is 13 days off in
| this record.


Re: Interpreting Russian Orthodox verses Hebrew date in Archive Record. #lithuania

Roman Vilner <rvilner@...>
 

Yes it is. The famous Russian November 7th 1917 (new style) revolution
actually occurred on October 25th 1917 (old style).

Roman Vilner
NYC
VILNER, LIEBERMAN, PINCHUK, SHMULENSON

There are 2 dates on a Keidan archive records for a
birth. >
Is this correct? The Julian date is 13 days off in
this record.


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Re: Interpreting Russian Orthodox verses Hebrew date in Archive Record. #lithuania

Roman Vilner <rvilner@...>
 

Yes it is. The famous Russian November 7th 1917 (new style) revolution
actually occurred on October 25th 1917 (old style).

Roman Vilner
NYC
VILNER, LIEBERMAN, PINCHUK, SHMULENSON

There are 2 dates on a Keidan archive records for a
birth. >
Is this correct? The Julian date is 13 days off in
this record.


Re: Middle Name: Hazanoah #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

<cabsha1@aol.com> wrote
Hello,

On my Great Grandmother's grave her middle name is listed Chazanoah or
Hazanoah. She came to America >from Talsen Courland in 1891. Her family
seems to have roots >from Lithuania, Kovno Province.

Does this mean daughter of a cantor? If so would someone be called that if
they were not a daughter of a cantor? What other information do you have
about this name? What would be its origins?
See http://www.thinkbabynames.com/name/0/Chazona

Oracle, prophetess

Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


Date of Thanksgiving 1918 - #general

Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@...>
 

Does anyone have a universal calendar who could figure out the actual date
of Thanksgiving in 1918?

TIA,
Barbara S. Mannlein
Tucson, AZ


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Middle Name: Hazanoah #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

<cabsha1@aol.com> wrote
Hello,

On my Great Grandmother's grave her middle name is listed Chazanoah or
Hazanoah. She came to America >from Talsen Courland in 1891. Her family
seems to have roots >from Lithuania, Kovno Province.

Does this mean daughter of a cantor? If so would someone be called that if
they were not a daughter of a cantor? What other information do you have
about this name? What would be its origins?
See http://www.thinkbabynames.com/name/0/Chazona

Oracle, prophetess

Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Date of Thanksgiving 1918 - #general

Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@...>
 

Does anyone have a universal calendar who could figure out the actual date
of Thanksgiving in 1918?

TIA,
Barbara S. Mannlein
Tucson, AZ


help in finding information from a no longer operating sanatorium in Massachuset #general

Jenni Hymoff Koeppel
 

Hello to all, I would greatly appreciate advice >from anyone who can help me:
according to the 1910 census my ggf (or someone named exactly the same) was
a patient at Rutland State Sanatorium - I would like to find out why he was
there and for how long. The institution no longer exists and I wonder
where the records might be and how to obtain a copy or a synopsis of them.

Thanks very much in advance for your atttention

Jenni Hymoff
researching HYMOFF and KADETSKY - Poland
KRAVETSKY and REDLER - Ukraine


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen help in finding information from a no longer operating sanatorium in Massachuset #general

Jenni Hymoff Koeppel
 

Hello to all, I would greatly appreciate advice >from anyone who can help me:
according to the 1910 census my ggf (or someone named exactly the same) was
a patient at Rutland State Sanatorium - I would like to find out why he was
there and for how long. The institution no longer exists and I wonder
where the records might be and how to obtain a copy or a synopsis of them.

Thanks very much in advance for your atttention

Jenni Hymoff
researching HYMOFF and KADETSKY - Poland
KRAVETSKY and REDLER - Ukraine