Would any kind genner in the Jerusalem area be able to do me the
great favour of taking a digital or scannable photo of my
g-g-grandmother's matzevah?
Here are the details I have found for her ( z"l):
Liba Feige Hacohen bas Abvraham HaCohen
born Kletsk, White Russia. d. 17 July 1883
Grave: Mt of Olives, Jerusalem (Section 8, Row 5, position 55).

Your kind favour can be reciprocated in the Greater London area.

Please replace the x's with dots in my email address
Jeremy M. Goldbloom
jxgoldbloom@ntlworldxcom

I have just heard >from GerSig that Robert John Aumann has won the Nobel
Prize for Economics.

Given that this is a genealogy group a bit of a nachas is presumably
allowed.

We share a common greatgrandfather, Marcus Israel Landau - he is descended

from the first wife - and I am descended >from his second wife.

We are half-second cousins.

My father has just told me that when my maths lecturer uncle visited him a
few years ago in Israel Jonny Aumann's wife became exasperated that they
talked mathematics all evening!

Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland) WEITZMAN (Cracow), WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany)
KOHN/WEISSKOPF (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany) LANDAU (only adopted
on leaving Belarus or later)/FREDKIN (?) (Gomel, Mogilev, Chernigov,
Belarus)

Would Morris LEVY, living in the USA, who wrote to me two years ago about
Eliza and Joseph HARRIS who were born in Oxford, England, in 1829 and 1830,
please be kind enough to contact me.

Many thanks.

Harold Pollins
Oxford

Would any kind genner in the Jerusalem area be able to do me the
great favour of taking a digital or scannable photo of my
g-g-grandmother's matzevah?
Here are the details I have found for her ( z"l):
Liba Feige Hacohen bas Abvraham HaCohen
born Kletsk, White Russia. d. 17 July 1883
Grave: Mt of Olives, Jerusalem (Section 8, Row 5, position 55).

Your kind favour can be reciprocated in the Greater London area.

Please replace the x's with dots in my email address
Jeremy M. Goldbloom
jxgoldbloom@ntlworldxcom

I have just heard >from GerSig that Robert John Aumann has won the Nobel
Prize for Economics.

Given that this is a genealogy group a bit of a nachas is presumably
allowed.

We share a common greatgrandfather, Marcus Israel Landau - he is descended

from the first wife - and I am descended >from his second wife.

We are half-second cousins.

My father has just told me that when my maths lecturer uncle visited him a
few years ago in Israel Jonny Aumann's wife became exasperated that they
talked mathematics all evening!

Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland) WEITZMAN (Cracow), WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany)
KOHN/WEISSKOPF (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany) LANDAU (only adopted
on leaving Belarus or later)/FREDKIN (?) (Gomel, Mogilev, Chernigov,
Belarus)

Would Morris LEVY, living in the USA, who wrote to me two years ago about
Eliza and Joseph HARRIS who were born in Oxford, England, in 1829 and 1830,
please be kind enough to contact me.

Many thanks.

Harold Pollins
Oxford

I have posted a new page with information about extermination pits in the
Konin region of Poland, where following communities were murdered by the
Germans in WWII (before Chelmno, first German extrmination camp in Poland
started to be operational):

Golina Grodziec Kleczew Konin Kramsk Pyzdry Rychwal Rzgow Skulsk Slesin
Slupca Wilczyn Zagorow.

The two Polish researchers who gave me the information and whom I thank from
the bottom of my heart, Krzysztof Gorczyca & Zdzislaw Lorek, working in the
Chelmno excavation site for the Konin regional museum, promised they will
draw a map which will be posted as well in the future.

The web site:
http://www.zchor.org/extermination/pits.htm

shalom,

Ada Holtzman
www.zchor.org

I have posted a new page with information about extermination pits in the
Konin region of Poland, where following communities were murdered by the
Germans in WWII (before Chelmno, first German extrmination camp in Poland
started to be operational):

Golina Grodziec Kleczew Konin Kramsk Pyzdry Rychwal Rzgow Skulsk Slesin
Slupca Wilczyn Zagorow.

The two Polish researchers who gave me the information and whom I thank from
the bottom of my heart, Krzysztof Gorczyca & Zdzislaw Lorek, working in the
Chelmno excavation site for the Konin regional museum, promised they will
draw a map which will be posted as well in the future.

The web site:
http://www.zchor.org/extermination/pits.htm

shalom,

Ada Holtzman
www.zchor.org

My mother's family was born in Bilke which was in Hungry in the late 1800's.
It is now in Ukraine and the name is either Bilki or Bilky. How do I get
vital information on the people who were born, married, and died in this town. I
know it is in the Sub Carpathain Basin.

Thank you,

Hank Greenberg

My mother's family was born in Bilke which was in Hungry in the late 1800's.
It is now in Ukraine and the name is either Bilki or Bilky. How do I get
vital information on the people who were born, married, and died in this town. I
know it is in the Sub Carpathain Basin.

Thank you,

Hank Greenberg

I would like to say a very sincere 'thank you' to all those wonderful
people who translated the tombstone inscriptions I recently posted on
ViewMate.

I have received a lot of help >from the group in the past, but this was
the first occasion people started to write to me before I had actually
posted a message requesting their help.

Once again - many thanks to all of you.

Jonathan Newman,

Leeds, England

primpark@ntlworld.com

I would like to say a very sincere 'thank you' to all those wonderful
people who translated the tombstone inscriptions I recently posted on
ViewMate.

I have received a lot of help >from the group in the past, but this was
the first occasion people started to write to me before I had actually
posted a message requesting their help.

Once again - many thanks to all of you.

Jonathan Newman,

Leeds, England

primpark@ntlworld.com

Hello,
There was no problem with 2 sisters/brothers marriying another 2
sisters/brothers , in the way David Edelman describes.
in fact my GGmother -GGfather were the same:

My Ggmother Yanka WEISZBERGER ( born 1870) married Jakab CZIESLER ( born 1866)
while his brother Ferenc CZIESLER maried her sister Rozsa WEISZBERGER ( born 1879)
This all happend in Austro-Hungarian empire.

I don't know of any Jewish low against it , and it seems logical in the
conditions David described. Don't forget that if the families were very
religious it often happene that the marrige was arranged.
And what is better then a family we already know?

Nava Giron
Israel

Hello,
There was no problem with 2 sisters/brothers marriying another 2
sisters/brothers , in the way David Edelman describes.
in fact my GGmother -GGfather were the same:

My Ggmother Yanka WEISZBERGER ( born 1870) married Jakab CZIESLER ( born 1866)
while his brother Ferenc CZIESLER maried her sister Rozsa WEISZBERGER ( born 1879)
This all happend in Austro-Hungarian empire.

I don't know of any Jewish low against it , and it seems logical in the
conditions David described. Don't forget that if the families were very
religious it often happene that the marrige was arranged.
And what is better then a family we already know?

Nava Giron
Israel

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 05:19:33 UTC, pappapeach@gmail.com (David Edelman)
opined:

Dear Cousin Genners;
There has been discussions about cousin and sibling marriage. This is
a different questain, but with a family kind of marriage:
If you go back in history of, say, 100-150 years, we get the
impression that a lot of comunities were much smaller then they are
now. It is known that travel then was much slower, dangerous, and more
expensive then it is now.
Because of that combination, it has been mentioned that a young man
will travel about 50 miles, to the next village, to "find" his wife.
This is the questain:
Lets say, about two years after this first young mans goes to the
neighbore village where he "found" his wife, his younger brother goes
to the same village to also "get" a wife. This second wife happens to
be the sister of the first wife. This would then make the two
brothers, brother-in-laws: the two sisters, sister-in-laws.
Similarly, although slightly different, if the younger brother is not
the brother of the first husband, but the younger brother of the first
wife, and goes to the first village. You end up with the same result
in the end.
It would seem this should have been common, but I have never seen it.
I have only seen it once, in present San Francisco, where two sisters
are married to two brothers.
Was this common, not aloud, or what?

The major part of the explanation is about travel to other villages; I
am unclear why this is relevant: the same problem exists if the
various families are neighbors in the same village. Similarly, the
question of which was the older sibling is also not part of the
question.

The phenomenon existed (late 19th century examples in my own tree).
I'm sure it still exists. An example of another complicated case is
that of my mother's younger brother who married my former wife's elder
sister, whom he met at my wedding. If you follow the path of the
relationships thus generated (my uncle is also my brother-in-law, my
sister-in-law is also my aunt -- and so was my wife), you may be
reminded (if you are old enough) of the 1960s song "I'm My Own
Grandpa", which concerned a similar, presumably fictional, case.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the
URL is: http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address
is not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the
URL above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 05:19:33 UTC, pappapeach@gmail.com (David Edelman)
opined:

Dear Cousin Genners;
There has been discussions about cousin and sibling marriage. This is
a different questain, but with a family kind of marriage:
If you go back in history of, say, 100-150 years, we get the
impression that a lot of comunities were much smaller then they are
now. It is known that travel then was much slower, dangerous, and more
expensive then it is now.
Because of that combination, it has been mentioned that a young man
will travel about 50 miles, to the next village, to "find" his wife.
This is the questain:
Lets say, about two years after this first young mans goes to the
neighbore village where he "found" his wife, his younger brother goes
to the same village to also "get" a wife. This second wife happens to
be the sister of the first wife. This would then make the two
brothers, brother-in-laws: the two sisters, sister-in-laws.
Similarly, although slightly different, if the younger brother is not
the brother of the first husband, but the younger brother of the first
wife, and goes to the first village. You end up with the same result
in the end.
It would seem this should have been common, but I have never seen it.
I have only seen it once, in present San Francisco, where two sisters
are married to two brothers.
Was this common, not aloud, or what?

The major part of the explanation is about travel to other villages; I
am unclear why this is relevant: the same problem exists if the
various families are neighbors in the same village. Similarly, the
question of which was the older sibling is also not part of the
question.

The phenomenon existed (late 19th century examples in my own tree).
I'm sure it still exists. An example of another complicated case is
that of my mother's younger brother who married my former wife's elder
sister, whom he met at my wedding. If you follow the path of the
relationships thus generated (my uncle is also my brother-in-law, my
sister-in-law is also my aunt -- and so was my wife), you may be
reminded (if you are old enough) of the 1960s song "I'm My Own
Grandpa", which concerned a similar, presumably fictional, case.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the
URL is: http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address
is not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the
URL above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.

Dear David:

Happened all the time. Still does.

Start with my own parents: first, my father's sister married my mother's
first cousin. Then my father, traveling on business, visited his new
more-or-less-in-laws (hot meal, you know). And met my mother. Mind
you, it wasn't that long ago (55 years next month) that they met, and he
didn't go explicitly to find a wife, and Buenos Aires to New York is a
little more than 50 miles, but the principle is sufficiently similar,
don't you think?

An example closer to your schema: in the 1870's, a son of Abraham Adolph
KUSCHNITZKY traveled >from his home in Gleiwitz (Upper Silesia) to
Vienna. He took with him the address of the brother of Salomon WINKLER,
who was the cantor in Gleiwitz. He married a daughter of Alois
WINKLER. Over the next decade, two of his brothers married two more of
Alois WINKLER's daughters.

That's still more than 50 miles, and he may not have visited the
Viennese WINKLERs in explicit search for a bride, but it's hard to
imagine that his brothers didn't take note of the possibilities right away.

For that matter, I could show you examples of this happening without
travel, i.e., paired marriages within the same city or town. Or a
distant relative of mine named BAGINSKY who was married three
times--each time to a woman named LUSTIG. As far as I know, I'm not
related to any of the wives--but I have determined that wife 2 was the
aunt of wife 3. And wife 1 wasn't a sister of either of the others, but
was probably related to them in some other way.

Roger Lustig
Princeton, NJ
(my own fourth cousin, and triple cousin of some of Cantor WINKLER's
descendants)

Dear David:

Happened all the time. Still does.

Start with my own parents: first, my father's sister married my mother's
first cousin. Then my father, traveling on business, visited his new
more-or-less-in-laws (hot meal, you know). And met my mother. Mind
you, it wasn't that long ago (55 years next month) that they met, and he
didn't go explicitly to find a wife, and Buenos Aires to New York is a
little more than 50 miles, but the principle is sufficiently similar,
don't you think?

An example closer to your schema: in the 1870's, a son of Abraham Adolph
KUSCHNITZKY traveled >from his home in Gleiwitz (Upper Silesia) to
Vienna. He took with him the address of the brother of Salomon WINKLER,
who was the cantor in Gleiwitz. He married a daughter of Alois
WINKLER. Over the next decade, two of his brothers married two more of
Alois WINKLER's daughters.

That's still more than 50 miles, and he may not have visited the
Viennese WINKLERs in explicit search for a bride, but it's hard to
imagine that his brothers didn't take note of the possibilities right away.

For that matter, I could show you examples of this happening without
travel, i.e., paired marriages within the same city or town. Or a
distant relative of mine named BAGINSKY who was married three
times--each time to a woman named LUSTIG. As far as I know, I'm not
related to any of the wives--but I have determined that wife 2 was the
aunt of wife 3. And wife 1 wasn't a sister of either of the others, but
was probably related to them in some other way.

Roger Lustig
Princeton, NJ
(my own fourth cousin, and triple cousin of some of Cantor WINKLER's
descendants)

David Edelman <pappapeach@gmail.com> wrote:

There has been discussions about cousin and sibling marriage. This is
a different questain, but with a family kind of marriage:
If you go back in history of, say, 100-150 years, we get the
impression that a lot of comunities were much smaller then they are
now. It is known that travel then was much slower, dangerous, and more
expensive then it is now.
Because of that combination, it has been mentioned that a young man
will travel about 50 miles, to the next village, to "find" his wife.
This is the questain:
Lets say, about two years after this first young mans goes to the
neighbore village where he "found" his wife, his younger brother goes
to the same village to also "get" a wife. This second wife happens to
be the sister of the first wife. This would then make the two
brothers, brother-in-laws: the two sisters, sister-in-laws.
Similarly, although slightly different, if the younger brother is not
the brother of the first husband, but the younger brother of the first
wife, and goes to the first village. You end up with the same result
in the end.
It would seem this should have been common, but I have never seen it.
I have only seen it once, in present San Francisco, where two sisters
are married to two brothers.
Was this common, not aloud, or what?

Very common, I think.

It's a custom in some circles, in particular among Lubavitch
Chassidim, that in these cases the two couples should live in
different cities. See e.g.
<http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/eternal-joy-1/15.htm>

BTW, my grandmother's two sisters married two brothers. Apparently
a third brother was interested in my grandmother, but she had other
ideas.

Robert Israel
israel@math.ubc.ca
Vancouver, BC, Canada

David Edelman <pappapeach@gmail.com> wrote:

There has been discussions about cousin and sibling marriage. This is
a different questain, but with a family kind of marriage:
If you go back in history of, say, 100-150 years, we get the
impression that a lot of comunities were much smaller then they are
now. It is known that travel then was much slower, dangerous, and more
expensive then it is now.
Because of that combination, it has been mentioned that a young man
will travel about 50 miles, to the next village, to "find" his wife.
This is the questain:
Lets say, about two years after this first young mans goes to the
neighbore village where he "found" his wife, his younger brother goes
to the same village to also "get" a wife. This second wife happens to
be the sister of the first wife. This would then make the two
brothers, brother-in-laws: the two sisters, sister-in-laws.
Similarly, although slightly different, if the younger brother is not
the brother of the first husband, but the younger brother of the first
wife, and goes to the first village. You end up with the same result
in the end.
It would seem this should have been common, but I have never seen it.
I have only seen it once, in present San Francisco, where two sisters
are married to two brothers.
Was this common, not aloud, or what?

Very common, I think.

It's a custom in some circles, in particular among Lubavitch
Chassidim, that in these cases the two couples should live in
different cities. See e.g.
<http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/eternal-joy-1/15.htm>

BTW, my grandmother's two sisters married two brothers. Apparently
a third brother was interested in my grandmother, but she had other
ideas.

Robert Israel
israel@math.ubc.ca
Vancouver, BC, Canada