Date   

GRITOCH, FRITOCH and PRITOCH - more garbled name #general

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

With reference to Shaul Sharoni's query and my reply that GRITOCH was probably
a transcription error for PRITSCH or perhaps PRILSCH - I also considered the
name FRITSCH. Believe it or not, there are also FRITOCH to be found on the
website, I will not mention by name. Three FRITOCH arrive in NY:

Babette 19 Oct 1907 abt 1869 Female Le Havre German La Lorraine
Marie 8 Jun 1896 abt 1874 Female Havre German La Touraine
Harian Mac Fritoch 18 Sep 1909 abt 1873 Trieste USA (American) Martha Washington

I read them as follows: Babette=FRITSCH; Marie=PRITOCH; Marian = Mac Intosh!!!

So I explored PRITOCH and two families of that name appeared too - who look
like PRITSCH to me. I now suspect there are many name ending in "sch" which
appear with the ending "och". Beware and/or use to your advantage. Correct, if
you find them.

Celia Male [U.K.]

MODERATOR NOTE: We have now seen several examples of possible
mistranscriptions...or possible similar names. Please continue the
discussion of this non-Jewish name privately.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen GRITOCH, FRITOCH and PRITOCH - more garbled name #general

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

With reference to Shaul Sharoni's query and my reply that GRITOCH was probably
a transcription error for PRITSCH or perhaps PRILSCH - I also considered the
name FRITSCH. Believe it or not, there are also FRITOCH to be found on the
website, I will not mention by name. Three FRITOCH arrive in NY:

Babette 19 Oct 1907 abt 1869 Female Le Havre German La Lorraine
Marie 8 Jun 1896 abt 1874 Female Havre German La Touraine
Harian Mac Fritoch 18 Sep 1909 abt 1873 Trieste USA (American) Martha Washington

I read them as follows: Babette=FRITSCH; Marie=PRITOCH; Marian = Mac Intosh!!!

So I explored PRITOCH and two families of that name appeared too - who look
like PRITSCH to me. I now suspect there are many name ending in "sch" which
appear with the ending "och". Beware and/or use to your advantage. Correct, if
you find them.

Celia Male [U.K.]

MODERATOR NOTE: We have now seen several examples of possible
mistranscriptions...or possible similar names. Please continue the
discussion of this non-Jewish name privately.


Re: The Name GRITOCH in Bucharest #hungary

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Shaul Sharoni writes: " As part of my research I came across the name GRITOCH;
Can someone tell me whether this is a first or last name?
In any case, I'm trying to locate descendants of a German man (this Gritoch)
who married a Jewish woman (Illy Grunwald), and lived in the Bucharest
before and after WWII, as far as I know. Let me know if this rings a bell to
anyone."

This may well be a very obscure German name but all I can tell Shaul is that
when I looked it up on a well-known website [which I am not sure if I am
allowed to mention after our new two-stage ruling!], I saw two entries which
appear to me as mistranscriptions of PRITSCH. This is a bona-fide name found in
Carpathian Ruthenia [Romania], as sadly attested by Yad Vashem. There are also
12 US census entries for GRITOCH - 1920 [5] and 1930 [7] - I cannot access them
to check but they may also be mistranscriptions.

So did Shaul also get a mistranscribed name >from another source?

Celia Male [U.K.]

MODERATOR NOTE: Naming the site in this context would be considered
an "incidental mention" and therefore postable.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen re: The Name GRITOCH in Bucharest #general

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Shaul Sharoni writes: " As part of my research I came across the name GRITOCH;
Can someone tell me whether this is a first or last name?
In any case, I'm trying to locate descendants of a German man (this Gritoch)
who married a Jewish woman (Illy Grunwald), and lived in the Bucharest
before and after WWII, as far as I know. Let me know if this rings a bell to
anyone."

This may well be a very obscure German name but all I can tell Shaul is that
when I looked it up on a well-known website [which I am not sure if I am
allowed to mention after our new two-stage ruling!], I saw two entries which
appear to me as mistranscriptions of PRITSCH. This is a bona-fide name found in
Carpathian Ruthenia [Romania], as sadly attested by Yad Vashem. There are also
12 US census entries for GRITOCH - 1920 [5] and 1930 [7] - I cannot access them
to check but they may also be mistranscriptions.

So did Shaul also get a mistranscribed name >from another source?

Celia Male [U.K.]

MODERATOR NOTE: Naming the site in this context would be considered
an "incidental mention" and therefore postable.


Re: WOTTITZ of Strakonice, Berauner Kreis > USA #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Paul King wrote: Celia Male's posting of 30 November in regard to WOTTITZ
family and Strakonice gives a Pilsener District setting for Eva's ancestors. I
wonder whether the 1793 census for Prachiner Kreis giving Napthali WOTITZ and
wife Eva is not an equally good candidate for Eva [dob 1846). There are 3 sons
given ...... making a ... probability of a granddaughter or great-granddaughter
Eva in 1846. Moreover, they live in Herrschaft Strakonitz and there is a head
of household, Jakob Kraus, on the same estate."

What I wrote was: "I think Eva WOTTITZ [dob 15. Dec 1846], who travelled to NY
alone is the daughter of Baruch WOTTITZ and Sara Kraus [Podmokl/Podmokly/
Bodmu{c}kl - Pilsner kreis] who lived in house 78 Strakonice - ie the maternal
Kraus line came >from the Pilsner kreis, *not* the WOTTITZ family.

I have done a lot more work on this now and can confirm that Eva, our emigrant
of 1870, was the daughter of Baruch WOTTITZ and Sara KRAUSKOPF >from Podmockl
[sorry I wrote Kraus in error!]. In the 1793 census there is one KRAUSKOPF
family in the Pilsner kreis, Vol IV p 159 and another listed in Gut Podmokl,
Prachiner kreis [Vol III p 105].

Baruch was the the grandson of Napthali WOTTITZ and wife Eva as found in the
1793 census {Vol III, p. 111]. Baruch's father was Michael [see iv below - a
butcher, cattle merchant and Hebrew poet*] who at the time of the census in
1793 was not yet married and listed as erstgeborener Sohn, Michl,ledig:

1. Herschl Nephthali Levi WOTTITZ ( father Salomon Levi) was born 1715 in
Strakonice Bezdekov, and died December 6, 1802. He married Eva RUDOLF 1740.
She was born in Sedlitz [Sedlek] nr Pisek, and died 1792 in Strakonice.

Children of the couple were:
1. Rosl/Resl/Renna b. Strakonice; d. Prague ?.
ii. Johanna - with illegitimate son Abraham [ie: gefallene - a fallen woman].
iii. Nanni b. Bet. 1750 - 1760, House IV, Strakonice; d. January 3, 1818, House
IV, Strakonice.
iv. Michael b. 1765; d. Oct or Dec 24, 1839. [first born] - see footnote
v. Abraham b. 1767; d. August 5, 1826.[2nd born]
vi. Lazar Levy b. 1770; d. December 3, 1838, House No 95, Strakonice [3rd
born];

Reverting to iv. Michael WOTTITZ: He married Anna/Heindl ROUBITSCHKIN/
ROBITZKY/aka RUBICKY or FIALIN on 12 Dec 1794 in Trebenice. She was born abt.
1765 in Zvestov, nr Votice, and died October 29, 1835 in Bezdekov, Strakonice.
The couple had six children - one was Baruch, father of Eva who emigrated to
NY.

And since my first posting I have found all Baruch's five children emigrating
to NY - all mistranscribed on the ships manifests as "Wolitz". Why the three
young sisters travelled alone first [10 Sept 1868 Ship: Allemannia] followed by
Eva [30 July 1870 Ship: Union ] and finally by their brother Marcus [29 June
1872 Ship: Main] remains a bit of a mystery but I believe I may have hit upon
the reason, which I will discuss later. I suspect their parents had died by the
time they left Bohemia. On the first journey [1868] you can also see Francisca
LOWITH; aged 18 who I suspect is a cousin of the three sisters.

I only found these emigration details when I fiddled around with variants of
Strakonice in the search fields and found Eva listed as Wolitz, thereby solving
a long-standing mystery. We knew this Bohemian family had gone to the USA
early, but no-one had the facts.

Celia Male [U.K.]

* According to his grandson, Emanuel WODIC {aka Emanu El Wodic Ha-Levy}, his
grandfather Michael was a Hebrew poet, who scribed "The Reckoning of the Omer"
used in orthodox synagogues. This was apparently presented by Emanuel to
Congregation Beth El in Detroit, Michigan. How Emanuel had possession of this
scroll is not known. In addition, according to Emanuel, he saw some of his
grandfather's poetry framed and hung up in the erstwhile synagogue at
Strakonitz. [Unfortunately, I have no further details about this, so cannot
answer questions, Celia]


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: WOTTITZ of Strakonice, Berauner Kreis > USA #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Paul King wrote: Celia Male's posting of 30 November in regard to WOTTITZ
family and Strakonice gives a Pilsener District setting for Eva's ancestors. I
wonder whether the 1793 census for Prachiner Kreis giving Napthali WOTITZ and
wife Eva is not an equally good candidate for Eva [dob 1846). There are 3 sons
given ...... making a ... probability of a granddaughter or great-granddaughter
Eva in 1846. Moreover, they live in Herrschaft Strakonitz and there is a head
of household, Jakob Kraus, on the same estate."

What I wrote was: "I think Eva WOTTITZ [dob 15. Dec 1846], who travelled to NY
alone is the daughter of Baruch WOTTITZ and Sara Kraus [Podmokl/Podmokly/
Bodmu{c}kl - Pilsner kreis] who lived in house 78 Strakonice - ie the maternal
Kraus line came >from the Pilsner kreis, *not* the WOTTITZ family.

I have done a lot more work on this now and can confirm that Eva, our emigrant
of 1870, was the daughter of Baruch WOTTITZ and Sara KRAUSKOPF >from Podmockl
[sorry I wrote Kraus in error!]. In the 1793 census there is one KRAUSKOPF
family in the Pilsner kreis, Vol IV p 159 and another listed in Gut Podmokl,
Prachiner kreis [Vol III p 105].

Baruch was the the grandson of Napthali WOTTITZ and wife Eva as found in the
1793 census {Vol III, p. 111]. Baruch's father was Michael [see iv below - a
butcher, cattle merchant and Hebrew poet*] who at the time of the census in
1793 was not yet married and listed as erstgeborener Sohn, Michl,ledig:

1. Herschl Nephthali Levi WOTTITZ ( father Salomon Levi) was born 1715 in
Strakonice Bezdekov, and died December 6, 1802. He married Eva RUDOLF 1740.
She was born in Sedlitz [Sedlek] nr Pisek, and died 1792 in Strakonice.

Children of the couple were:
1. Rosl/Resl/Renna b. Strakonice; d. Prague ?.
ii. Johanna - with illegitimate son Abraham [ie: gefallene - a fallen woman].
iii. Nanni b. Bet. 1750 - 1760, House IV, Strakonice; d. January 3, 1818, House
IV, Strakonice.
iv. Michael b. 1765; d. Oct or Dec 24, 1839. [first born] - see footnote
v. Abraham b. 1767; d. August 5, 1826.[2nd born]
vi. Lazar Levy b. 1770; d. December 3, 1838, House No 95, Strakonice [3rd
born];

Reverting to iv. Michael WOTTITZ: He married Anna/Heindl ROUBITSCHKIN/
ROBITZKY/aka RUBICKY or FIALIN on 12 Dec 1794 in Trebenice. She was born abt.
1765 in Zvestov, nr Votice, and died October 29, 1835 in Bezdekov, Strakonice.
The couple had six children - one was Baruch, father of Eva who emigrated to
NY.

And since my first posting I have found all Baruch's five children emigrating
to NY - all mistranscribed on the ships manifests as "Wolitz". Why the three
young sisters travelled alone first [10 Sept 1868 Ship: Allemannia] followed by
Eva [30 July 1870 Ship: Union ] and finally by their brother Marcus [29 June
1872 Ship: Main] remains a bit of a mystery but I believe I may have hit upon
the reason, which I will discuss later. I suspect their parents had died by the
time they left Bohemia. On the first journey [1868] you can also see Francisca
LOWITH; aged 18 who I suspect is a cousin of the three sisters.

I only found these emigration details when I fiddled around with variants of
Strakonice in the search fields and found Eva listed as Wolitz, thereby solving
a long-standing mystery. We knew this Bohemian family had gone to the USA
early, but no-one had the facts.

Celia Male [U.K.]

* According to his grandson, Emanuel WODIC {aka Emanu El Wodic Ha-Levy}, his
grandfather Michael was a Hebrew poet, who scribed "The Reckoning of the Omer"
used in orthodox synagogues. This was apparently presented by Emanuel to
Congregation Beth El in Detroit, Michigan. How Emanuel had possession of this
scroll is not known. In addition, according to Emanuel, he saw some of his
grandfather's poetry framed and hung up in the erstwhile synagogue at
Strakonitz. [Unfortunately, I have no further details about this, so cannot
answer questions, Celia]


Re: Kopyl/Kapule #belarus

Kenneth H. Ryesky, Esq. <khresq@...>
 

Hal Stein has inquired about the Kopyl/Kapule shtetl, and the Kapule
community in Sioux City, Iowa.

There was a Kapulier Congregation, now defunct, in Omaha,
Nebraska. If memory serves me correctly, the Nebraska Jewish
Historical Society at one time had an exhibition of documents and
artifacts >from that congregation.

Suggestion: Contact the NJHS:

Nebraska Jewish Historical Society
333 South 132nd Street,
Omaha, NB 68154
402/334-6442
<njhs@jewishomaha.org >
--- Ken Ryesky
East Northport, NY


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: Kopyl/Kapule #belarus

Kenneth H. Ryesky, Esq. <khresq@...>
 

Hal Stein has inquired about the Kopyl/Kapule shtetl, and the Kapule
community in Sioux City, Iowa.

There was a Kapulier Congregation, now defunct, in Omaha,
Nebraska. If memory serves me correctly, the Nebraska Jewish
Historical Society at one time had an exhibition of documents and
artifacts >from that congregation.

Suggestion: Contact the NJHS:

Nebraska Jewish Historical Society
333 South 132nd Street,
Omaha, NB 68154
402/334-6442
<njhs@jewishomaha.org >
--- Ken Ryesky
East Northport, NY


Kristalnacht/Buchenwald/Release of Prisoners #germany

Steve Orlen
 

Dear Cousins,
In November, 1938, a day or so after Kristalnacht, my wife's
grandfather Bruno BERMANN was arrested in a railroad station and sent
to Buchenwald, where he remained for six weeks (mid-December.) His
wife traded the BERMANN family home in the center of Zell on the
Mosel for his release. My question is: Do records of this internment
exist on-line?

Best, Steve Orlen Tucson, AZ <sorlen@email.arizona.edu>


German SIG #Germany Kristalnacht/Buchenwald/Release of Prisoners #germany

Steve Orlen
 

Dear Cousins,
In November, 1938, a day or so after Kristalnacht, my wife's
grandfather Bruno BERMANN was arrested in a railroad station and sent
to Buchenwald, where he remained for six weeks (mid-December.) His
wife traded the BERMANN family home in the center of Zell on the
Mosel for his release. My question is: Do records of this internment
exist on-line?

Best, Steve Orlen Tucson, AZ <sorlen@email.arizona.edu>


Why haplogroups #dna

Jared Gross <Jared_Gross@...>
 

Can anyone clarify for me
1. What are haplogroups?
2. How will my personal genealogical research benefit if I
determine my y-DNA and/or mtDNA haplogroups?

Jared Gross
Burlington, MA


DNA Research #DNA Why haplogroups #dna

Jared Gross <Jared_Gross@...>
 

Can anyone clarify for me
1. What are haplogroups?
2. How will my personal genealogical research benefit if I
determine my y-DNA and/or mtDNA haplogroups?

Jared Gross
Burlington, MA


Matrilineal Surnaming Practices #dna

MARC M COHEN <marc-cohen25@...>
 

On 2006.11.29, under the subject line "Different surnames for 37Y
exact match," Joyce Oshrin <joshrin@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

[...] women had illegitimate babies. [...] The babies were
given their mother's surname.
Joyce,

There are two very simple explanations for why many Jewish families
in Eastern Europe passed surnames in the matrilineal line.

1. When the civil law in various countries began to require all
people to have surnames, there was nothing obvious about why the
surname should pass >from the father rather than >from the mother. If
the mother's family already had a surname, the couple might just use
that one, rather than make up a new one. Sometimes if the mother's
family was more affluent, particularly in rural farming areas where
the husband came to live on the wife's family farm, he adopted the
matrilineal surname. This scenario seems to have been the case in
my Weininger family in Costestie (Costinetz) Bukovina (formerly in
Austria and Romania, now in Ukraine), where my GGM's husband came to
live on the Weininger dairy farm and he became a Weininger.

2. In some Eastern European countries at various times, Jews were
not allowed to marry under civil law. Certainly they had a Jewish
marriage, but when it came time to register the birth of a child,
the father's surname would not be recognized by the clerk under the
civil law, so the child would be registered under the mother's
surname. This second was probably the most common reason for
matrilineal descent of the surname.

Hope this helps,

Marc

Marc M. Cohen
Palo Alto, CA


DNA Research #DNA Matrilineal Surnaming Practices #dna

MARC M COHEN <marc-cohen25@...>
 

On 2006.11.29, under the subject line "Different surnames for 37Y
exact match," Joyce Oshrin <joshrin@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

[...] women had illegitimate babies. [...] The babies were
given their mother's surname.
Joyce,

There are two very simple explanations for why many Jewish families
in Eastern Europe passed surnames in the matrilineal line.

1. When the civil law in various countries began to require all
people to have surnames, there was nothing obvious about why the
surname should pass >from the father rather than >from the mother. If
the mother's family already had a surname, the couple might just use
that one, rather than make up a new one. Sometimes if the mother's
family was more affluent, particularly in rural farming areas where
the husband came to live on the wife's family farm, he adopted the
matrilineal surname. This scenario seems to have been the case in
my Weininger family in Costestie (Costinetz) Bukovina (formerly in
Austria and Romania, now in Ukraine), where my GGM's husband came to
live on the Weininger dairy farm and he became a Weininger.

2. In some Eastern European countries at various times, Jews were
not allowed to marry under civil law. Certainly they had a Jewish
marriage, but when it came time to register the birth of a child,
the father's surname would not be recognized by the clerk under the
civil law, so the child would be registered under the mother's
surname. This second was probably the most common reason for
matrilineal descent of the surname.

Hope this helps,

Marc

Marc M. Cohen
Palo Alto, CA


Levy and Pessa SEGAL decendents #france

Bubylu@...
 

Hello all,

I am trying to find my lost family. My grandfather's brother Levy SEGAL
came to Paris >from Iasi (Jassy) Romania and settled there. He married Pessa
HERSEN and they had 7 children.
I am trying to locate any of their decentness. Some of their children names
were:
Jacques, who died during WW1 in 1916, the other children were: Paul, Anna,
Adele,
Maurice, Henri and Jules. I don't know if any of these siblings are still
alive but I would very much enjoy contacting their families. Actually, I did
locate thru this loop, find the children of Adele but I would so like to find
the rest of the family of Levy and Pessa SEGAL. Levy was born around 1866
the son of Leah and Israel SEGAL in Iasi, Romania.
Please, if you would please contact me I would so appreciate it.

Sincerely,
Lois Segal Friedman
Bubylu@aol.com
Delray Beach, Florida USA


French SIG #France Levy and Pessa SEGAL decendents #france

Bubylu@...
 

Hello all,

I am trying to find my lost family. My grandfather's brother Levy SEGAL
came to Paris >from Iasi (Jassy) Romania and settled there. He married Pessa
HERSEN and they had 7 children.
I am trying to locate any of their decentness. Some of their children names
were:
Jacques, who died during WW1 in 1916, the other children were: Paul, Anna,
Adele,
Maurice, Henri and Jules. I don't know if any of these siblings are still
alive but I would very much enjoy contacting their families. Actually, I did
locate thru this loop, find the children of Adele but I would so like to find
the rest of the family of Levy and Pessa SEGAL. Levy was born around 1866
the son of Leah and Israel SEGAL in Iasi, Romania.
Please, if you would please contact me I would so appreciate it.

Sincerely,
Lois Segal Friedman
Bubylu@aol.com
Delray Beach, Florida USA


Re: Translation of letters on a tombstone #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

At 10:10 PM -0500 12/1/06, Annette Stolberg wrote:

The month is Heshvan, but it is preceded by Mem Resh. .
Do Mem and Resh change the meaning of the month of Heshvan?
No, they don't: the full name of the month is Marheshvan.

Actually that name seems to be the result of an error in
pronunciation and/or writing that developed at some point.
MarheshWan was originally WarheshMan -- but the vav and mem somehow
became transposed. In the original order, the letters vav-resh-het
shin-mem-nun means "eighth month" (W-R-H means month --being
basically the same root as the word Y-R-H meaning "moon")

Has anyone heard of the custom of burying a father and son in the
same grave site? I am not aware of this, if it was an old tradition
in the 1850's.
My husband's maternal grandfather was buried in Vienna in 1926 the
same grave as one of his daughters, who had unfortunately predeceased
him by one year. Multiple burials in one grave are permissible and
were not uncommon, especially where there were space constraints so
that the cemetery cannot be expanded to allow for additional graves.

Judith Romney Wegner


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Translation of letters on a tombstone #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

At 10:10 PM -0500 12/1/06, Annette Stolberg wrote:

The month is Heshvan, but it is preceded by Mem Resh. .
Do Mem and Resh change the meaning of the month of Heshvan?
No, they don't: the full name of the month is Marheshvan.

Actually that name seems to be the result of an error in
pronunciation and/or writing that developed at some point.
MarheshWan was originally WarheshMan -- but the vav and mem somehow
became transposed. In the original order, the letters vav-resh-het
shin-mem-nun means "eighth month" (W-R-H means month --being
basically the same root as the word Y-R-H meaning "moon")

Has anyone heard of the custom of burying a father and son in the
same grave site? I am not aware of this, if it was an old tradition
in the 1850's.
My husband's maternal grandfather was buried in Vienna in 1926 the
same grave as one of his daughters, who had unfortunately predeceased
him by one year. Multiple burials in one grave are permissible and
were not uncommon, especially where there were space constraints so
that the cemetery cannot be expanded to allow for additional graves.

Judith Romney Wegner


Re: Translation of letters on a tombstone #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 16:11:37 UTC, annettes@frontiernet.net (Annette Stolberg)
wrote:

Genners,

I'm not sure the following is an old burial tradition in Israel, but
a son and father are buried in the same grave. We have been able to
translate most of the Hebrew regarding the father, with the
exception of four letters - Nun, Lamed, Vet and Ayin, with two small
marks after the Vet. These letters precede the day of the month and
the year.
The "two small marks" are the way an acronym is indicated in Hebrew. The
combination NUN LAMED BET " 'AYIN means "Niftar leveit 'olamo", which is a
more florid was to say "died"; the following date is, of course, when he
died.

Directly below the father's name, and indented, are the letters Zion
Vav Nun Zion , followed by habocher (the son) and the name of the
father. Nun, Lamed, Vet, Ayin, appear again, followed by
a numeral. The month is Heshvan, but it is preceded by Mem Resh. .
I assume that the four letters are ZAYIN VAV NUN ZAYIN, which is a surname,
"Zunz". "haBoh.er" does not mean "the son", but "the young man". It would be
so much easier to interpret this for you had you posted a picture of it on
ViewMate. As it is, I will leave it to others to speculate on why the
father's name comes after "haBoh.er", if indeed it does.

The name of the month is, in fact "Marh.eshvan"; this is a word that has
undergone some letter transpositions, which disguise its meaning as "Eighth
Month". "H.eshvan" is shortened, as often happens to long words and for the
same reasons. Well...it fits better on marquees.

Do the letters Nun, Lamed, Vet and Ayin represent a word, or are
they an acronym for an expression? Do Mem and Resh change the
meaning of the month of Heshvan?

Has anyone heard of the custom of burying a father and son in the
same grave site? I am not aware of this, if it was an old tradition
in the 1850's.
I have never heard of such a tradition, and doubt that there ever was one.
It would be reckless to speculate on what the stone actually says without
seeing it or a photograph of it.

Thank you,

Annette Stolberg
Rochester, NY
annettes@frontiernet.net
--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Translation of letters on a tombstone #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 16:11:37 UTC, annettes@frontiernet.net (Annette Stolberg)
wrote:

Genners,

I'm not sure the following is an old burial tradition in Israel, but
a son and father are buried in the same grave. We have been able to
translate most of the Hebrew regarding the father, with the
exception of four letters - Nun, Lamed, Vet and Ayin, with two small
marks after the Vet. These letters precede the day of the month and
the year.
The "two small marks" are the way an acronym is indicated in Hebrew. The
combination NUN LAMED BET " 'AYIN means "Niftar leveit 'olamo", which is a
more florid was to say "died"; the following date is, of course, when he
died.

Directly below the father's name, and indented, are the letters Zion
Vav Nun Zion , followed by habocher (the son) and the name of the
father. Nun, Lamed, Vet, Ayin, appear again, followed by
a numeral. The month is Heshvan, but it is preceded by Mem Resh. .
I assume that the four letters are ZAYIN VAV NUN ZAYIN, which is a surname,
"Zunz". "haBoh.er" does not mean "the son", but "the young man". It would be
so much easier to interpret this for you had you posted a picture of it on
ViewMate. As it is, I will leave it to others to speculate on why the
father's name comes after "haBoh.er", if indeed it does.

The name of the month is, in fact "Marh.eshvan"; this is a word that has
undergone some letter transpositions, which disguise its meaning as "Eighth
Month". "H.eshvan" is shortened, as often happens to long words and for the
same reasons. Well...it fits better on marquees.

Do the letters Nun, Lamed, Vet and Ayin represent a word, or are
they an acronym for an expression? Do Mem and Resh change the
meaning of the month of Heshvan?

Has anyone heard of the custom of burying a father and son in the
same grave site? I am not aware of this, if it was an old tradition
in the 1850's.
I have never heard of such a tradition, and doubt that there ever was one.
It would be reckless to speculate on what the stone actually says without
seeing it or a photograph of it.

Thank you,

Annette Stolberg
Rochester, NY
annettes@frontiernet.net
--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

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