Date   

Re: Bribing to get out of concentration camps #general

celiamale@...
 

I am indeed surprised at this correspondence - it was very well known
that wealthy Viennese Jews and their sons [>from late teens upwards]
were effectively taken hostage quite early in the National Socialist
era on trumped-up charges [ie well before the Kristallnacht] and sent
to Buchenwald and Dachau to be ransomed by their frantic families for
large amounts of money. I think ransom is a more suitable term than
bribing. The prison guards were hardly involved in these "high-profile"
cases.

If they were unfortunate to die there in "an incident", the families
could purchase *their*? ashes to be buried in Vienna. I have written
about this a number of times on the Austria-Czech SIG. Use keywords
"celia ashes" to search the SIG message archives. The victims can
often be identified in the IKG cemetery database if there is a big
discrepancy in the date of death [1938] and burial [of the ashes].

Other early Austrian prisoners included those who were deemed
politically or otherwise undesirable - ie they were not taken for
financial reasons. These may not have had enough money to be ransomed
and their fate was inevitable. Perhaps prison guards were bribable
for small amounts of money in these cases - I have no evidence.

See this picture: Fritz SCHLESINGER came >from a very wealthy and
influential Viennese family indireclty associated to my family - and
read my commentary: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cam37/646487558/

Two other much closer Viennese family members were captured for
ransom - one died trying to escape and one was indeed ransomed by his
very wealthy father. The family {father, mother and two sons} then
settled in the UK.

You may also wish to visit my growing pictorial holocaust site -
"Holocaust Memorials - public and private"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cam37/sets/72157603905805036/

In the next few weeks, many more pictures will be added following
my visit to Slovakia {Galanta, Trnva, Vrbove cemeteries}.

Celia Male, London, U.K.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen re: Bribing to get out of concentration camps #general

celiamale@...
 

I am indeed surprised at this correspondence - it was very well known
that wealthy Viennese Jews and their sons [>from late teens upwards]
were effectively taken hostage quite early in the National Socialist
era on trumped-up charges [ie well before the Kristallnacht] and sent
to Buchenwald and Dachau to be ransomed by their frantic families for
large amounts of money. I think ransom is a more suitable term than
bribing. The prison guards were hardly involved in these "high-profile"
cases.

If they were unfortunate to die there in "an incident", the families
could purchase *their*? ashes to be buried in Vienna. I have written
about this a number of times on the Austria-Czech SIG. Use keywords
"celia ashes" to search the SIG message archives. The victims can
often be identified in the IKG cemetery database if there is a big
discrepancy in the date of death [1938] and burial [of the ashes].

Other early Austrian prisoners included those who were deemed
politically or otherwise undesirable - ie they were not taken for
financial reasons. These may not have had enough money to be ransomed
and their fate was inevitable. Perhaps prison guards were bribable
for small amounts of money in these cases - I have no evidence.

See this picture: Fritz SCHLESINGER came >from a very wealthy and
influential Viennese family indireclty associated to my family - and
read my commentary: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cam37/646487558/

Two other much closer Viennese family members were captured for
ransom - one died trying to escape and one was indeed ransomed by his
very wealthy father. The family {father, mother and two sons} then
settled in the UK.

You may also wish to visit my growing pictorial holocaust site -
"Holocaust Memorials - public and private"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cam37/sets/72157603905805036/

In the next few weeks, many more pictures will be added following
my visit to Slovakia {Galanta, Trnva, Vrbove cemeteries}.

Celia Male, London, U.K.


Bribing to get out of death camps #general

nigel wilson <wilsonettess@...>
 

A cousin of mine was 8 years old whilst living in a death camp with
his parents. One day a Nazi came up to his father and told him that
he knew where the parents were hiding their son each day in the camp
(underneath a wooden stage) - this had been going on for over 2
years - and as there was going to be an 'axtion' the following day
thereby removing all children, he, who didn't agree with the 'going
ons' in the camp would be prepared to save my cousin and 3 other
children the next morning by hiding them underneath hay and eggs in
a cart that was entering and leaving the camp - for a small fee!

What did my cousin's parents have to lose....so they and 3 other sets
of parents gave the Nazi all their hidden possessions - true to his
word the cart arrived the next morning, my cousin with the other
children were placed in it, it left the camp and the children were
taken to an orphanage which my cousin soon left and wandered around
until the end of WW2 - he arrived in Palestine alone in 1946. His
parents were murdered a few days after he left the camp.

Miracles do happen - as in this case my cousin believed he was the
only one to survive the Shoah until I started to research my family
and 'found' him some 8 years ago living but a 2hr train journey >from
my own home.

Patricia Wilson (Israel)


Bribing your way out of concentration camp #general

Dana Dimitriu
 

Good morning,

I have two questions regarding this topic:

1. would someone who was bribed out of a concentration camp still be
found in the concentration camp prisoner lists / documents?
2. does anyone know about any unsuccessful attempts to bribe someone out?

The mystery I am trying to elucidate goes like this: my grandfather's
sister, Else Rozsypalova, lived in Prague and worked in the company of
her uncle, Dr. Wilhelm Halpern. Dr. Halpern was deported to Dachau in
September 1940, where he died in January 1941. Else was *never*in KZ
Dachau - confirmed by both Gedenkstätte KZ Dachau and ITS Bad Arolsen -
*but* her last letter to the family back in Bucovina was written (or sent?)
in Dachau; as the family back home was also deported (to Transnistria) the
letter was read only in 1942 but it is unclear when it was sent / arrived.
On asking at the Gedenkstätte Dachau if it had been possible for family
members to visit (?!?) prisoners in the concentration camps or perhaps
even be informed of their death (and possibly asked to pick them up) I
was told that there is no such information available.
Seeing the messages about people who escaped >from KZs through bribing I
wonder if it is at all possible that Else was trying to get her uncle out
of Dachau - even though I really do not understand how she would be able
to move freely >from Prague to Dachau in 1940 / 1941 ... And then perhaps
he "died on them" in January 1941 so she went back to Prague ?!? Her
letter to the family (which we do not have anymore) doesn't mention
anything about this at all, it only says she is fine and the family
should not worry and she is asking for handwritten confirmation >from
her mother that all is well back home.

[ Else was deported >from Prague in February 1942 to Theresienstadt and
then further on to Izbica so Dachau just doesn't fit into the story
otherwise ... ]

Thank you for any ideas you might have.

All the best,

Dana Dimitriu

DE - Wiesbaden / RO - Bucuresti
Email dana.dimitriu@...

---
From: Steve Orlen <sorlen@...>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 07:36:37 -0700

Some years ago I did some research on the question of bribes regarding
men interned in Buchenwald following Kristallnacht, because my wife's
grandmother was able to get her husband out by trading a piece of
property in Zell am Mosel to the local government. I thought I had
put out the question on this list, or on the German SIG list, but wasn't
able to find it in the archives. I recall getting quite a number of
responses, saying that, yes, my relative was bribed out of a camp by
this and that method.
<snip>

---
From: Irene Newhouse <einew137@...>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:28:55 -0700 (PDT)

My father was also moved to Prague >from Germany, in 1936. Right after
the Germans annexed Czechoslovakia, he attempted to get to the
Netherlands illegally. He managed to cross Germany, but was arrested
just before he got to the Dutch border & sent to Dachau, where he
worked in the gravel pit for some months. He was released >from Dachau
when his sister, who lived in Switzerland, managed to get a visa for
him to go to Chile. He was never sure of the time frame, later.
However, I found a document my mother had kept indicating he was on
board a ship bound for Chile by March 1940.
<snip>


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Bribing to get out of death camps #general

nigel wilson <wilsonettess@...>
 

A cousin of mine was 8 years old whilst living in a death camp with
his parents. One day a Nazi came up to his father and told him that
he knew where the parents were hiding their son each day in the camp
(underneath a wooden stage) - this had been going on for over 2
years - and as there was going to be an 'axtion' the following day
thereby removing all children, he, who didn't agree with the 'going
ons' in the camp would be prepared to save my cousin and 3 other
children the next morning by hiding them underneath hay and eggs in
a cart that was entering and leaving the camp - for a small fee!

What did my cousin's parents have to lose....so they and 3 other sets
of parents gave the Nazi all their hidden possessions - true to his
word the cart arrived the next morning, my cousin with the other
children were placed in it, it left the camp and the children were
taken to an orphanage which my cousin soon left and wandered around
until the end of WW2 - he arrived in Palestine alone in 1946. His
parents were murdered a few days after he left the camp.

Miracles do happen - as in this case my cousin believed he was the
only one to survive the Shoah until I started to research my family
and 'found' him some 8 years ago living but a 2hr train journey >from
my own home.

Patricia Wilson (Israel)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Bribing your way out of concentration camp #general

Dana Dimitriu
 

Good morning,

I have two questions regarding this topic:

1. would someone who was bribed out of a concentration camp still be
found in the concentration camp prisoner lists / documents?
2. does anyone know about any unsuccessful attempts to bribe someone out?

The mystery I am trying to elucidate goes like this: my grandfather's
sister, Else Rozsypalova, lived in Prague and worked in the company of
her uncle, Dr. Wilhelm Halpern. Dr. Halpern was deported to Dachau in
September 1940, where he died in January 1941. Else was *never*in KZ
Dachau - confirmed by both Gedenkstätte KZ Dachau and ITS Bad Arolsen -
*but* her last letter to the family back in Bucovina was written (or sent?)
in Dachau; as the family back home was also deported (to Transnistria) the
letter was read only in 1942 but it is unclear when it was sent / arrived.
On asking at the Gedenkstätte Dachau if it had been possible for family
members to visit (?!?) prisoners in the concentration camps or perhaps
even be informed of their death (and possibly asked to pick them up) I
was told that there is no such information available.
Seeing the messages about people who escaped >from KZs through bribing I
wonder if it is at all possible that Else was trying to get her uncle out
of Dachau - even though I really do not understand how she would be able
to move freely >from Prague to Dachau in 1940 / 1941 ... And then perhaps
he "died on them" in January 1941 so she went back to Prague ?!? Her
letter to the family (which we do not have anymore) doesn't mention
anything about this at all, it only says she is fine and the family
should not worry and she is asking for handwritten confirmation >from
her mother that all is well back home.

[ Else was deported >from Prague in February 1942 to Theresienstadt and
then further on to Izbica so Dachau just doesn't fit into the story
otherwise ... ]

Thank you for any ideas you might have.

All the best,

Dana Dimitriu

DE - Wiesbaden / RO - Bucuresti
Email dana.dimitriu@...

---
From: Steve Orlen <sorlen@...>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 07:36:37 -0700

Some years ago I did some research on the question of bribes regarding
men interned in Buchenwald following Kristallnacht, because my wife's
grandmother was able to get her husband out by trading a piece of
property in Zell am Mosel to the local government. I thought I had
put out the question on this list, or on the German SIG list, but wasn't
able to find it in the archives. I recall getting quite a number of
responses, saying that, yes, my relative was bribed out of a camp by
this and that method.
<snip>

---
From: Irene Newhouse <einew137@...>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:28:55 -0700 (PDT)

My father was also moved to Prague >from Germany, in 1936. Right after
the Germans annexed Czechoslovakia, he attempted to get to the
Netherlands illegally. He managed to cross Germany, but was arrested
just before he got to the Dutch border & sent to Dachau, where he
worked in the gravel pit for some months. He was released >from Dachau
when his sister, who lived in Switzerland, managed to get a visa for
him to go to Chile. He was never sure of the time frame, later.
However, I found a document my mother had kept indicating he was on
board a ship bound for Chile by March 1940.
<snip>


Re: 40 year old phone numbers #general

Sarah L Meyer
 

Dear Genners,
I realize that a few families now live in the same house, that has
not been my experience (although I admit that I have never had the
courage to try an old number). But >from our discussion here, an avenue
of research has occurred to me. All 40 year old phone numbers were
"land lines". Therefore if the number is still in service and is not
unpublished or unlisted, a reverse lookup should do the trick. Go to
one or another of the phone book sites such as www.anywho.com (ATT)
www.switchboard.com and look for the reverse lookup box. After entering
the phone number in question, you will get back the name and address of
the person with that number, or a message stating that the number is
unlisted or out of service. This also works with land line current
phone numbers but not with cell numbers.
Sarah L. M. Christiansen
Georgetown, Texas

Is there some way to use a US phone number >from 40 years or more ago to
get more information about someone?


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen RE: 40 year old phone numbers #general

Sarah L Meyer
 

Dear Genners,
I realize that a few families now live in the same house, that has
not been my experience (although I admit that I have never had the
courage to try an old number). But >from our discussion here, an avenue
of research has occurred to me. All 40 year old phone numbers were
"land lines". Therefore if the number is still in service and is not
unpublished or unlisted, a reverse lookup should do the trick. Go to
one or another of the phone book sites such as www.anywho.com (ATT)
www.switchboard.com and look for the reverse lookup box. After entering
the phone number in question, you will get back the name and address of
the person with that number, or a message stating that the number is
unlisted or out of service. This also works with land line current
phone numbers but not with cell numbers.
Sarah L. M. Christiansen
Georgetown, Texas

Is there some way to use a US phone number >from 40 years or more ago to
get more information about someone?


Donation to Brandeis Uni and Israel Hospital/Harry L.ROGAL #general

Maggie Bonfield <bonturn2@...>
 

Harry L.ROGAL (born Kovno 1875 died Mass 1964)donated money to
Brandeis Uni for building and he also donated a window to an Israel
hospital. How do I find out more please?
Maggie Bonfield
England
bonturn2@...

researching ROGAL-Lithuania/USA/England


Frances ROGAL-SIMON, Lithuania-->New York #general

Maggie Bonfield <bonturn2@...>
 

Frances ROGAL-SIMON was born in the Russian territory of Lithuania
c1889 and married Pinkus Simon on March 18th 1918 in Manhattan New
York. She is still named Frances/Fannie Simon on her brother's obit in
1937. What happened to her after that, had she any children. Can
anyone help please?

Maggie Bonfield, England
bonturn2@...


Pochapovo Belarus - How far from the Dnieper River? #general

Steve Orlen
 

Dear Cousins,

Please excuse my ineptitude with maps. My great-grandfather Beryl
MELNIK was born in 1863 & lived in the village of Pochapovo in
Belarus, located at 53 22 - 25 49. He was said by my mother to have
"owned a house on the banks of the Dnieper River." I'm trying to
figure out if this was credible. I've looked at the maps, but can't
tell how far Pochapovo is >from the Dnieper, or whether it is situated
on a river at all.

Best, Steve Orlen Tucson Arizona


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Donation to Brandeis Uni and Israel Hospital/Harry L.ROGAL #general

Maggie Bonfield <bonturn2@...>
 

Harry L.ROGAL (born Kovno 1875 died Mass 1964)donated money to
Brandeis Uni for building and he also donated a window to an Israel
hospital. How do I find out more please?
Maggie Bonfield
England
bonturn2@...

researching ROGAL-Lithuania/USA/England


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Frances ROGAL-SIMON, Lithuania-->New York #general

Maggie Bonfield <bonturn2@...>
 

Frances ROGAL-SIMON was born in the Russian territory of Lithuania
c1889 and married Pinkus Simon on March 18th 1918 in Manhattan New
York. She is still named Frances/Fannie Simon on her brother's obit in
1937. What happened to her after that, had she any children. Can
anyone help please?

Maggie Bonfield, England
bonturn2@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Pochapovo Belarus - How far from the Dnieper River? #general

Steve Orlen
 

Dear Cousins,

Please excuse my ineptitude with maps. My great-grandfather Beryl
MELNIK was born in 1863 & lived in the village of Pochapovo in
Belarus, located at 53 22 - 25 49. He was said by my mother to have
"owned a house on the banks of the Dnieper River." I'm trying to
figure out if this was credible. I've looked at the maps, but can't
tell how far Pochapovo is >from the Dnieper, or whether it is situated
on a river at all.

Best, Steve Orlen Tucson Arizona


Hebrew NY Herald 1929/Rose ROSENBERG #general

Maggie Bonfield <bonturn2@...>
 

Hebrew NY Herald 1929/Rose ROSENBERG.

Where can I get a copy of October 6th 1929? It has an article about
Rose Rosenberg, Prime Minister Ramsey MacDonald's secretary, whom I am
researching. Rose was born in London in C1893.
Thanks
Maggie Bonfield
England

researching
ROGAL-Lithuania/USA/England


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Hebrew NY Herald 1929/Rose ROSENBERG #general

Maggie Bonfield <bonturn2@...>
 

Hebrew NY Herald 1929/Rose ROSENBERG.

Where can I get a copy of October 6th 1929? It has an article about
Rose Rosenberg, Prime Minister Ramsey MacDonald's secretary, whom I am
researching. Rose was born in London in C1893.
Thanks
Maggie Bonfield
England

researching
ROGAL-Lithuania/USA/England


WULFF/GODCHAUX/MOREL: Lessons in name origins #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 6/29/2009 3:15:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
lachaus@... writes:
" Angèle WULFF was born in 1879 in Brussels and was the daughter of
Moritz WULFF and Emma GODCHAUX.
" Emma GODCHAUX was the daughter of Oury GODCHAUX (Brussels) and
Charlotte MOREL (Brussels)."

==I usually avoid discussions of the "what was the name originally?" type,
but this list of names seems to beg a response:

GODCHAUX is a French (most likely Alsatian form of the German-Jewish
first name Gottschalk. This is the kinnuy for the Hebrew name Elyakim

WULFF is a Gentile name >from North Germany. Among Jews, it's probably
a variant for WOLFF, which is the kinnuy for the Hebrew names Benjamin and
Ze'ev.

Moritz is usually a German secular name for Moshe, Emma for Eva/Chava,
Oury, French spelling for the Hebrew Uri, which is a kinnuy for Feivel,
Fybush, Phoebus, and often associated with Menachem or Mendel.

Charlotte is most commonly associated with Sarah, Morel with Moses.

You may discover the earlier version of these first names and surnames
among the names of earlier generations of the various families.

Michael Bernet, New York


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen WULFF/GODCHAUX/MOREL: Lessons in name origins #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 6/29/2009 3:15:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
lachaus@... writes:
" Angèle WULFF was born in 1879 in Brussels and was the daughter of
Moritz WULFF and Emma GODCHAUX.
" Emma GODCHAUX was the daughter of Oury GODCHAUX (Brussels) and
Charlotte MOREL (Brussels)."

==I usually avoid discussions of the "what was the name originally?" type,
but this list of names seems to beg a response:

GODCHAUX is a French (most likely Alsatian form of the German-Jewish
first name Gottschalk. This is the kinnuy for the Hebrew name Elyakim

WULFF is a Gentile name >from North Germany. Among Jews, it's probably
a variant for WOLFF, which is the kinnuy for the Hebrew names Benjamin and
Ze'ev.

Moritz is usually a German secular name for Moshe, Emma for Eva/Chava,
Oury, French spelling for the Hebrew Uri, which is a kinnuy for Feivel,
Fybush, Phoebus, and often associated with Menachem or Mendel.

Charlotte is most commonly associated with Sarah, Morel with Moses.

You may discover the earlier version of these first names and surnames
among the names of earlier generations of the various families.

Michael Bernet, New York


CA AB 130 --Latest Alert #general

Jan Meisels Allen <janmallen@...>
 

I recently posted to this forum an updated Legislative Alert that included
information on California AB 130 which adds marriage records to the existing
indices restrictions on birth and death records and redacts mother's maiden
name >from marriage records. It passed the Assembly 79-0 earlier this month.
This bill continues to pass each committee and there has not been one no
vote. IAJGS submitted its letters of opposition to both the Senate
Judiciary and Senate Appropriations Committees. It passed Judiciary with no
"no" votes. It is now in Appropriations and can be heard at any time-
although as of today they don't have it scheduled.

I have posted an updated Legislative Alert on the IAJGS website
www.IAJGS.org and go to the left hand button legislation then Latest
Alert.- or scroll down to the newsboy icon and click on latest alert. The
alert contains the most updated information, you can access the IAJGS letter
to Appropriations Committee, and more information.

This bill is sponsored by the Orange County Recorder's Office to make
marriage records the same as birth and death records --which were covered by
similar legislation in 2002- for access to indices and redacting mother's
maiden name.

Also contained in the updated Legislative Alert is an update on CA SB 40.

If you have any questions, please let me know.

Jan Meisels Allen
Director, IAJGS and
Chairperson, Public Records Access Monitoring Committee


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen CA AB 130 --Latest Alert #general

Jan Meisels Allen <janmallen@...>
 

I recently posted to this forum an updated Legislative Alert that included
information on California AB 130 which adds marriage records to the existing
indices restrictions on birth and death records and redacts mother's maiden
name >from marriage records. It passed the Assembly 79-0 earlier this month.
This bill continues to pass each committee and there has not been one no
vote. IAJGS submitted its letters of opposition to both the Senate
Judiciary and Senate Appropriations Committees. It passed Judiciary with no
"no" votes. It is now in Appropriations and can be heard at any time-
although as of today they don't have it scheduled.

I have posted an updated Legislative Alert on the IAJGS website
www.IAJGS.org and go to the left hand button legislation then Latest
Alert.- or scroll down to the newsboy icon and click on latest alert. The
alert contains the most updated information, you can access the IAJGS letter
to Appropriations Committee, and more information.

This bill is sponsored by the Orange County Recorder's Office to make
marriage records the same as birth and death records --which were covered by
similar legislation in 2002- for access to indices and redacting mother's
maiden name.

Also contained in the updated Legislative Alert is an update on CA SB 40.

If you have any questions, please let me know.

Jan Meisels Allen
Director, IAJGS and
Chairperson, Public Records Access Monitoring Committee