Date   

Family surname puzzle. #lithuania

Mark London <mrl@...>
 

Hi - I have a question regarding my Lithuanian ancestors who lived in
the latter half of the 1800s. What happens in the case where young
children lose their parents at an early age, and are taken in my another
family? Would they have taken the surname of the new family, or would
they have kept their original surname? Here's are the specifics:

My grandfather was born in Lithuania in 1869, and his last name was
London. His father's name was Moses London. His mother died young, and
his father remarried. When my grandfather was old enough, he was sent
away to be an apprentice, and then eventually went to America in 1889.
Two children were born >from the second marriage, but the parents died
when they were young. I've luckily been able to find these 2 children
listed in the Lithuanian revision list for 1887. They are part of
another family, with the last name of Dembovsky. They are 10 and 4 at
the time, and both are listed as sister and brother to the head of the
family, who is a man that is 44 years old. They all have the name
Israel listed as their father, who is deceased. This man who is head of
the family, is married, and has his own young children. While it's
theoretically possible that this man was a sibling to my young
relatives, I suspect that this is likely inot the case. Perhaps there
was some reason (legal or otherwise) for declaring them to be direct
relatives to the government? Did they even have the term niece and
nephew on the revision lists, for relatives in a family?

In any event, the real puzzle comes when these other 2 siblings arrive
in the US. The younger brother arrives in 1902, gives his last name as
London. The sister was married in Russia, where her father's name is
listed as Israel Dembrovsky. She moves to England, her husband dies,
she remarries, and again gives the same name for her father. However,
when she immigrates to the US in 1906, she claims to be a sister of the
younger London brother that arrived in 1902. But are they really
Londons or not? When the brother gets married, he gives Israel London
as his father's name, which doesn't match the name that my grandfather
states as being his father. Yet, the children of these 2 London
families are brought up with the belief that they did have the same
father. So there is confusion.

There was also confusion for the sister's family, because I tracked down
marriage certificates >from the 1930s for 2 of her children, and one
child put down London for their mother's maiden name, while another
child puts down the name Dembrovsky. These marriages occurred at least
a decade after the sister's family had moved away >from the other 2
London families. There was little contact (if at all) with the 2 London
brother families. So there was no reason to keep up any facade, if
London name wasn't somehow part of their heritage. Yet it somehow
survived. When the sister died, while Israel is listed ono her
gravestone as being Israel, I'm pretty sure London is listed as her
maiden name on her death certificate.

Could my grandfather have had his father's name wrong? A possibility.
However, my grandfather was known to be a stickler when it came to
Jewish names being wrong. But if he was wrong, then the other brother
should have corrected him after he arrived in America. Yet my
grandfather never changed his claim.

Unfortunately, there are no records in the Lithuanian databases for my
grandfather's London family. So I'm left with simply trying to guess
what all of this means.

Mark London


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Family surname puzzle. #lithuania

Mark London <mrl@...>
 

Hi - I have a question regarding my Lithuanian ancestors who lived in
the latter half of the 1800s. What happens in the case where young
children lose their parents at an early age, and are taken in my another
family? Would they have taken the surname of the new family, or would
they have kept their original surname? Here's are the specifics:

My grandfather was born in Lithuania in 1869, and his last name was
London. His father's name was Moses London. His mother died young, and
his father remarried. When my grandfather was old enough, he was sent
away to be an apprentice, and then eventually went to America in 1889.
Two children were born >from the second marriage, but the parents died
when they were young. I've luckily been able to find these 2 children
listed in the Lithuanian revision list for 1887. They are part of
another family, with the last name of Dembovsky. They are 10 and 4 at
the time, and both are listed as sister and brother to the head of the
family, who is a man that is 44 years old. They all have the name
Israel listed as their father, who is deceased. This man who is head of
the family, is married, and has his own young children. While it's
theoretically possible that this man was a sibling to my young
relatives, I suspect that this is likely inot the case. Perhaps there
was some reason (legal or otherwise) for declaring them to be direct
relatives to the government? Did they even have the term niece and
nephew on the revision lists, for relatives in a family?

In any event, the real puzzle comes when these other 2 siblings arrive
in the US. The younger brother arrives in 1902, gives his last name as
London. The sister was married in Russia, where her father's name is
listed as Israel Dembrovsky. She moves to England, her husband dies,
she remarries, and again gives the same name for her father. However,
when she immigrates to the US in 1906, she claims to be a sister of the
younger London brother that arrived in 1902. But are they really
Londons or not? When the brother gets married, he gives Israel London
as his father's name, which doesn't match the name that my grandfather
states as being his father. Yet, the children of these 2 London
families are brought up with the belief that they did have the same
father. So there is confusion.

There was also confusion for the sister's family, because I tracked down
marriage certificates >from the 1930s for 2 of her children, and one
child put down London for their mother's maiden name, while another
child puts down the name Dembrovsky. These marriages occurred at least
a decade after the sister's family had moved away >from the other 2
London families. There was little contact (if at all) with the 2 London
brother families. So there was no reason to keep up any facade, if
London name wasn't somehow part of their heritage. Yet it somehow
survived. When the sister died, while Israel is listed ono her
gravestone as being Israel, I'm pretty sure London is listed as her
maiden name on her death certificate.

Could my grandfather have had his father's name wrong? A possibility.
However, my grandfather was known to be a stickler when it came to
Jewish names being wrong. But if he was wrong, then the other brother
should have corrected him after he arrived in America. Yet my
grandfather never changed his claim.

Unfortunately, there are no records in the Lithuanian databases for my
grandfather's London family. So I'm left with simply trying to guess
what all of this means.

Mark London


GAMBURG/Family lists #lithuania

Howard Margol
 

Question - From: paulettebron@...
<< I have a question about the Vilnius Archives. How was the data collected
by the census takers? Did they go house to house and later organize families
by name and registration number? >>

That is a question we may never know the complete answer to. Bear in mind
that revision lists and family lists in the Russian Empire covered a period
of years and was not a snapshot of facts that existed on any particular
day. The only exception to this was the 1897 Census of the Russian Empire.
On the Linkuva 1883 Family List, my maternal grandparents are listed
together with their six children. My grandparents were married in 1885. The
children were born between 1886 and 1896. The entire family is also listed
in the Linkuva 1908 Family List. They left Linkuva in 1899 and, in 1908,
were living in Baltimore, Md.

Question - << How could 15 and 16 year old young men be heads of households?
There were no other family members listed with these two young men. Could
this data indicate that the two boys lived together? Are addresses mentioned
on original documents? >>

The oldest family member was listed as the head of household. If their
registration number was the same, that indicated they lived together.
Sometimes addresses are mentioned and sometimes not.

Question - << I have a similar question about the Kaunas Regional Archives.
I found five GAMBURG families (KRA/I-211/1/78), registration numbers 594,
595, 596, 597 and 598, all with former registration numbers 177/165 on
pages 262, 263 and 264. I also found two GAMBURG families (KRA/I-211/1/78)
registration numbers 592 and 593, former registration numbers 177/164,
page 261. Could the 177/165 and 177/164 families be related? >>

Different registration numbers indicated they did not live together. They
may, or may not have been related. Also, they may have been related but not
in the same immediate family. Same registration numbers could indicate they
lived together and were members of the same family. Example - in an
earlier census, the family may have consisted of parents and three sons, all
living together, members of the same family and with the same registration
number. In a later census, the parents and each son may have been living
separately, each with their own families. Each family would have had a
different registration number.

This is an example of why it is important to obtain as many records as
possible so family relationships can be established.

Howard Margol
LitvakSIG Coordinator for Records Acquisition


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania GAMBURG/Family lists #lithuania

Howard Margol
 

Question - From: paulettebron@...
<< I have a question about the Vilnius Archives. How was the data collected
by the census takers? Did they go house to house and later organize families
by name and registration number? >>

That is a question we may never know the complete answer to. Bear in mind
that revision lists and family lists in the Russian Empire covered a period
of years and was not a snapshot of facts that existed on any particular
day. The only exception to this was the 1897 Census of the Russian Empire.
On the Linkuva 1883 Family List, my maternal grandparents are listed
together with their six children. My grandparents were married in 1885. The
children were born between 1886 and 1896. The entire family is also listed
in the Linkuva 1908 Family List. They left Linkuva in 1899 and, in 1908,
were living in Baltimore, Md.

Question - << How could 15 and 16 year old young men be heads of households?
There were no other family members listed with these two young men. Could
this data indicate that the two boys lived together? Are addresses mentioned
on original documents? >>

The oldest family member was listed as the head of household. If their
registration number was the same, that indicated they lived together.
Sometimes addresses are mentioned and sometimes not.

Question - << I have a similar question about the Kaunas Regional Archives.
I found five GAMBURG families (KRA/I-211/1/78), registration numbers 594,
595, 596, 597 and 598, all with former registration numbers 177/165 on
pages 262, 263 and 264. I also found two GAMBURG families (KRA/I-211/1/78)
registration numbers 592 and 593, former registration numbers 177/164,
page 261. Could the 177/165 and 177/164 families be related? >>

Different registration numbers indicated they did not live together. They
may, or may not have been related. Also, they may have been related but not
in the same immediate family. Same registration numbers could indicate they
lived together and were members of the same family. Example - in an
earlier census, the family may have consisted of parents and three sons, all
living together, members of the same family and with the same registration
number. In a later census, the parents and each son may have been living
separately, each with their own families. Each family would have had a
different registration number.

This is an example of why it is important to obtain as many records as
possible so family relationships can be established.

Howard Margol
LitvakSIG Coordinator for Records Acquisition


Request for help from fellow members about wartime documents. #lithuania

chayakat@...
 

Dear fellow members, i am turning to you in the hope that in your researches
you might have come across the documents i will describe, or have any thread
of information.

My late fathers family came >from Videshok (Vidiskai) in the Wilkomir
(Ukmerge/Vilkomir) area -- very close by. After the war my aunt received
a letter >from the local priest about what happened (confirmed by
the late faygeh rotshtein(vald)/moshe sadevitz who fled to russia/and a
letter >from cuba >from an aunt). One aunt,Shaina Rivka Lot was caught trying
to escape and shot on the first day of the war in her yard. Our sainted
grandmother Chasya Faygeh Katz together with her 15 year old grandson, my
cousin Avrohom Lot were shot and buried alive with all the Vilkomir area
martyrs. Avrohom's sister Raizel Vald lost a child and husband and was taken
with 9 other beautiful young Jewish girls to Vilkomir prison where they were
tortured and raped for some time and then executed.

After the war documents were found which had lists of the murdered Jews and
other information.They were located in the Jewish Museum in Vilna. Later
the Communist regime confiscated this and much other material.

Please,is there anyone out there who knows the fate of these
documents?? where can they be accessed? Is there any record at all anywhere
and >from anyone at all about Videsiek(Vidiskai/Videshok)and the people
mentioned and incidents described-in fact anything at all about the
place??? Lastly is there any record of the names and details about the
vilkomirer area martyrs in any place.???

I grew up among the south african litvaks and videsiek landsleit. The whole
story has not given us any rest all these years--anything would help us have
some peace.Please help if you can.

Thanks in advance.

Rabbi Menachem Mendal Katz.
Kfar Haroeh.38955.Israel.
Please reply personally.Also:
chayakat@...


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Request for help from fellow members about wartime documents. #lithuania

chayakat@...
 

Dear fellow members, i am turning to you in the hope that in your researches
you might have come across the documents i will describe, or have any thread
of information.

My late fathers family came >from Videshok (Vidiskai) in the Wilkomir
(Ukmerge/Vilkomir) area -- very close by. After the war my aunt received
a letter >from the local priest about what happened (confirmed by
the late faygeh rotshtein(vald)/moshe sadevitz who fled to russia/and a
letter >from cuba >from an aunt). One aunt,Shaina Rivka Lot was caught trying
to escape and shot on the first day of the war in her yard. Our sainted
grandmother Chasya Faygeh Katz together with her 15 year old grandson, my
cousin Avrohom Lot were shot and buried alive with all the Vilkomir area
martyrs. Avrohom's sister Raizel Vald lost a child and husband and was taken
with 9 other beautiful young Jewish girls to Vilkomir prison where they were
tortured and raped for some time and then executed.

After the war documents were found which had lists of the murdered Jews and
other information.They were located in the Jewish Museum in Vilna. Later
the Communist regime confiscated this and much other material.

Please,is there anyone out there who knows the fate of these
documents?? where can they be accessed? Is there any record at all anywhere
and >from anyone at all about Videsiek(Vidiskai/Videshok)and the people
mentioned and incidents described-in fact anything at all about the
place??? Lastly is there any record of the names and details about the
vilkomirer area martyrs in any place.???

I grew up among the south african litvaks and videsiek landsleit. The whole
story has not given us any rest all these years--anything would help us have
some peace.Please help if you can.

Thanks in advance.

Rabbi Menachem Mendal Katz.
Kfar Haroeh.38955.Israel.
Please reply personally.Also:
chayakat@...


IT amd burials in Israel #poland

rosef@...
 

This is a synopsis of an announcement in the newspapers in Israel.

Chevra Kadisha, Israel's burial society, has never known a recession,
which naturally makes sense, as death never takes a vacation.

Over the past few months, the burial society has invested significant
resources in upgrading its technological services, in the hopes of
helping those looking for a loved one's final resting place to find it
more easily.

"In the last couple of months we have developed an SMS grave-locator
system," Yossi Zrock, head of Chevra Kadisha IT Services, told Yedioth
Ahronoth.

"If, for example, you've arrived at a cemetery and you don't know
where the gravestone is, text the name of the deceased to *4664 and
directions will be sent to you within seconds."

Chevra Kadisha, he added, is currently developing a GPS grave-locater
system for mobile phones. "Such technologies are required for the
bigger cemeteries, like the one in Holon, which has over 220,000
graves. People can get lost."

Soon, Zrock promised, cemetery goers will be able to rent a PDA upon
arrival, for only NIS 20 (about $5.3). The device will lead them
directly to the desired gravestone and will allow them, en route, to
view photos of the deceased, read about his life and access the
required prayers.

For full story see http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3955283,00.html

Hag Sameach

Rose Feldman
IGS webmistress
http://www.isragen.org.il
keep up to date on archives, databases and genealogy in general with
http://twitter.com/isragen


JRI Poland #Poland IT amd burials in Israel #poland

rosef@...
 

This is a synopsis of an announcement in the newspapers in Israel.

Chevra Kadisha, Israel's burial society, has never known a recession,
which naturally makes sense, as death never takes a vacation.

Over the past few months, the burial society has invested significant
resources in upgrading its technological services, in the hopes of
helping those looking for a loved one's final resting place to find it
more easily.

"In the last couple of months we have developed an SMS grave-locator
system," Yossi Zrock, head of Chevra Kadisha IT Services, told Yedioth
Ahronoth.

"If, for example, you've arrived at a cemetery and you don't know
where the gravestone is, text the name of the deceased to *4664 and
directions will be sent to you within seconds."

Chevra Kadisha, he added, is currently developing a GPS grave-locater
system for mobile phones. "Such technologies are required for the
bigger cemeteries, like the one in Holon, which has over 220,000
graves. People can get lost."

Soon, Zrock promised, cemetery goers will be able to rent a PDA upon
arrival, for only NIS 20 (about $5.3). The device will lead them
directly to the desired gravestone and will allow them, en route, to
view photos of the deceased, read about his life and access the
required prayers.

For full story see http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3955283,00.html

Hag Sameach

Rose Feldman
IGS webmistress
http://www.isragen.org.il
keep up to date on archives, databases and genealogy in general with
http://twitter.com/isragen


Alternate Surnames #poland

Sam <sam.macilroy@...>
 

My great-grandfather Max Adler was born in Nurzec, near Bocki in
1908. I have been pretty unsuccessful over the last few years at locating
any records through JRI even though I have dates for his birth and those of
his siblings and his parents. However, I recently found the birth of his
brother-in-law on JRI. His brother in law was Barney Scher, AKA
Reuben Schonofsky, Rubin Schenfsky, Reuben Shnofsky and ultimately in JRI as
Ruwin Szachnowski.

My question is are there as many different variations of the last name
Adler depending on where in Poland you might happen to be located? If so,
does anyone have any suggestions as to the possible variations?

Thanks in advance,
Sam MacIlroy
Sam.macilroy@...


JRI Poland #Poland Alternate Surnames #poland

Sam <sam.macilroy@...>
 

My great-grandfather Max Adler was born in Nurzec, near Bocki in
1908. I have been pretty unsuccessful over the last few years at locating
any records through JRI even though I have dates for his birth and those of
his siblings and his parents. However, I recently found the birth of his
brother-in-law on JRI. His brother in law was Barney Scher, AKA
Reuben Schonofsky, Rubin Schenfsky, Reuben Shnofsky and ultimately in JRI as
Ruwin Szachnowski.

My question is are there as many different variations of the last name
Adler depending on where in Poland you might happen to be located? If so,
does anyone have any suggestions as to the possible variations?

Thanks in advance,
Sam MacIlroy
Sam.macilroy@...


Russian Translation #poland

Maxwald
 

Translation required >from Russian for these two records. All names and
ages of individuals appreciated including place of birth of persons, if
shown.

Thanking you in anticipation.
Please reply direct.

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16692

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16691

Max Wald
max.wald@...
Researcher 154536

Seeking:
Perkelwald,Mittelberg,Alter,Lewartowski,Nuchowicz,Rozenstein,Tokarski.


JRI Poland #Poland Russian Translation #poland

Maxwald
 

Translation required >from Russian for these two records. All names and
ages of individuals appreciated including place of birth of persons, if
shown.

Thanking you in anticipation.
Please reply direct.

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16692

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16691

Max Wald
max.wald@...
Researcher 154536

Seeking:
Perkelwald,Mittelberg,Alter,Lewartowski,Nuchowicz,Rozenstein,Tokarski.


Russian Translation #poland

Maxwald
 

Translation required >from Russian for these two records. All names and
ages of individuals appreciated including place of birth of persons, if
shown.

Thanking you in anticipation.
Please reply direct.

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16692

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16691

Max Wald
max.wald@...
Researcher 154536

Seeking:
Perkelwald,Mittelberg,Alter,Lewartowski,Nuchowicz,Rozenstein,Tokarski.


BialyGen: Bialystok Region #Bialystok #Poland Russian Translation #poland

Maxwald
 

Translation required >from Russian for these two records. All names and
ages of individuals appreciated including place of birth of persons, if
shown.

Thanking you in anticipation.
Please reply direct.

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16692

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16691

Max Wald
max.wald@...
Researcher 154536

Seeking:
Perkelwald,Mittelberg,Alter,Lewartowski,Nuchowicz,Rozenstein,Tokarski.


Re: Brothers with different surnames #general

Marcella S
 

If all the sons in a Lithuanian family had different last names how can you
know for sure that they were siblings - I have one son with the last name
ABRAMOVICH and the rest of the boys named OSIPOVICH - only family heresy puts
them together as a family - any suggestions on how to prove that bother
ABRAMOVICH was biologically a sibling of the OSIPOVICH brothers
Thx
Marcella Shames


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Brothers with different surnames #general

Marcella S
 

If all the sons in a Lithuanian family had different last names how can you
know for sure that they were siblings - I have one son with the last name
ABRAMOVICH and the rest of the boys named OSIPOVICH - only family heresy puts
them together as a family - any suggestions on how to prove that bother
ABRAMOVICH was biologically a sibling of the OSIPOVICH brothers
Thx
Marcella Shames


GAMBURG/Family lists #general

Paulette Bronstein
 

Greetings Fellow Researchers. I have a question about the Vilnius
Archives. How was the data collected by the census takers? Did they go
house to house and later organize families by name and registration
number? On the Zarasai-Salakas-1858-1876 list, lines 672 and 673, page
46 I found Gamberg, Abram, Head of Household, father - Eliash, Male,
age 16, registration number 177 and Gamburg, Eliash, Head of Household,
father - Nokhim, Male, age 15, registration number 178. How could 15
and 16 year old young men be heads of households? There were no other
family members listed with these two young men. Could this data
indicate that the two boys lived together? Are addresses mentioned on
original archives? I am referring to LVIA/1/1262/48.
I have a similar question about the Kaunas Regional Archives. I found
five GAMBURG families (KRA/I-211/1/78), registration numbers 594, 595,
596, 597 and 598, all with former registration numbers 177/165 on pages
262, 263 and 264. I also found two GAMBURG families (KRA/I-211/1/78)
registration numbers 592 and 593, former registration numbers 177/164,
page 261. Could the 177/165 and 177/164 families be related? Are the
addresses on the original archives?
I apologize if these are basic questions. I read all of the
explanations on Jewishgen.org and could not find answers to my
questions.
Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Paulette Bronstein
Aventura, Florida
GAMBURG - Salakas, Ekaterinoslav, Brooklyn
GAMUS - Vilna


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen GAMBURG/Family lists #general

Paulette Bronstein
 

Greetings Fellow Researchers. I have a question about the Vilnius
Archives. How was the data collected by the census takers? Did they go
house to house and later organize families by name and registration
number? On the Zarasai-Salakas-1858-1876 list, lines 672 and 673, page
46 I found Gamberg, Abram, Head of Household, father - Eliash, Male,
age 16, registration number 177 and Gamburg, Eliash, Head of Household,
father - Nokhim, Male, age 15, registration number 178. How could 15
and 16 year old young men be heads of households? There were no other
family members listed with these two young men. Could this data
indicate that the two boys lived together? Are addresses mentioned on
original archives? I am referring to LVIA/1/1262/48.
I have a similar question about the Kaunas Regional Archives. I found
five GAMBURG families (KRA/I-211/1/78), registration numbers 594, 595,
596, 597 and 598, all with former registration numbers 177/165 on pages
262, 263 and 264. I also found two GAMBURG families (KRA/I-211/1/78)
registration numbers 592 and 593, former registration numbers 177/164,
page 261. Could the 177/165 and 177/164 families be related? Are the
addresses on the original archives?
I apologize if these are basic questions. I read all of the
explanations on Jewishgen.org and could not find answers to my
questions.
Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Paulette Bronstein
Aventura, Florida
GAMBURG - Salakas, Ekaterinoslav, Brooklyn
GAMUS - Vilna


Re: Occupation "Negotiator" #general

Simon Tardell
 

In French "negociant" means merchant or trader.
Perhaps English has had the same meaning for "negotiator" in the past.

Or you have a family with a tradition for talking to hostage takers.

Simon Tardell,
Stockholm, Sweden

On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 21:14, <ESLVIV@...> wrote:
One of the documents that I have has the persons occupation as Negotiator.
Can anyone tell me what this means and want it would relate to? ...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Occupation "Negotiator" #general

Simon Tardell
 

In French "negociant" means merchant or trader.
Perhaps English has had the same meaning for "negotiator" in the past.

Or you have a family with a tradition for talking to hostage takers.

Simon Tardell,
Stockholm, Sweden

On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 21:14, <ESLVIV@...> wrote:
One of the documents that I have has the persons occupation as Negotiator.
Can anyone tell me what this means and want it would relate to? ...