Date   
Transcribing from Russian Cyrillic to Latin letters #latvia

Adam Katzeff <adam.katzeff@...>
 

Dear all,

I'm in the process of going through the LDS-films for the Jewish records of
the Estonian cities and towns of Narva, Rakvere, Tallinn, Tartu, Viljandi
and Võru as I have mentioned in a previous message to this mailing list.
Hopefully this information will in the future go into a database presented
somewhere on JewishGen.

Most of the script in those records are in Russian Cyrillic which is
sometimes hard to read and transcribe into the Latin letters. I have had a
great help of many books describing the present rules when doing
transcribations between the Russian Cyrillic and Latin alphabets, but I
still have problems with one letter: the pre-1917 letter looking something
close to the letter "b" and used as an alternative to the letter "E", the
later one normally transcribed as "e" or "ye". Old dictionaries tell that
the old letter "b" should be transcribed as "ye". I wonder if the letter "b"
should be treatened the same way as the letter "E" is treatened when
transcribed, i.e. it should be transcribed as "ye" when placed in beginning
of worlds, after wovels and after the "softness" and "nonsoftness" signs and
in all other cases as "e".

If anyone in this group could enlight me in this question, I would be very
glad. This would help me a lot when transcribing the Estonian records!

Best regards

Adam Katzeff
Malmoe, Sweden

adam.katzeff@...

Researching:
GOLDBERG: Papile, Lithuania; Cesis, Latvia; Parnu+Tallinn, Estonia; Sweden
GORDON: Tukums, Latvia; Sweden; St Petersburg, Russia
KATSEV / KATZEFF / KATZOFF / KACEV: Papile, Lithuania; Cesis, Latvia;
Parnu+Tallinn, Estonia; Sweden; Denmark; Glasgow, Scotland; Boston, MA+New
York, NY+Atlanta, GA+Los Angeles, CA+San Fransisco, CA, USA

Latvia SIG #Latvia Transcribing from Russian Cyrillic to Latin letters #latvia

Adam Katzeff <adam.katzeff@...>
 

Dear all,

I'm in the process of going through the LDS-films for the Jewish records of
the Estonian cities and towns of Narva, Rakvere, Tallinn, Tartu, Viljandi
and Võru as I have mentioned in a previous message to this mailing list.
Hopefully this information will in the future go into a database presented
somewhere on JewishGen.

Most of the script in those records are in Russian Cyrillic which is
sometimes hard to read and transcribe into the Latin letters. I have had a
great help of many books describing the present rules when doing
transcribations between the Russian Cyrillic and Latin alphabets, but I
still have problems with one letter: the pre-1917 letter looking something
close to the letter "b" and used as an alternative to the letter "E", the
later one normally transcribed as "e" or "ye". Old dictionaries tell that
the old letter "b" should be transcribed as "ye". I wonder if the letter "b"
should be treatened the same way as the letter "E" is treatened when
transcribed, i.e. it should be transcribed as "ye" when placed in beginning
of worlds, after wovels and after the "softness" and "nonsoftness" signs and
in all other cases as "e".

If anyone in this group could enlight me in this question, I would be very
glad. This would help me a lot when transcribing the Estonian records!

Best regards

Adam Katzeff
Malmoe, Sweden

adam.katzeff@...

Researching:
GOLDBERG: Papile, Lithuania; Cesis, Latvia; Parnu+Tallinn, Estonia; Sweden
GORDON: Tukums, Latvia; Sweden; St Petersburg, Russia
KATSEV / KATZEFF / KATZOFF / KACEV: Papile, Lithuania; Cesis, Latvia;
Parnu+Tallinn, Estonia; Sweden; Denmark; Glasgow, Scotland; Boston, MA+New
York, NY+Atlanta, GA+Los Angeles, CA+San Fransisco, CA, USA

Cancel "Translation request (1 word)" #general

Pascal Pinan-Lucarre <pascal.pinan-lucarre@...>
 

Answers obtained.

JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Cancel "Translation request (1 word)" #general

Pascal Pinan-Lucarre <pascal.pinan-lucarre@...>
 

Answers obtained.

Introduction #lithuania

sara <sarayaku@...>
 

f`z di` decrd nxeaz glwim arivea MIME.

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Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From:Sara Yakubovski
P.O.B. 8075,Haifa 31080, Israel
E-Mail: sarayaku@...

Hello and Shalom to my fellow Keidaners,
My name is Sara,I was born in Israel and my Keidaner link is my mother =
-Mina RONDER who was a sister of Chayim Ronder who together with a =
Polish Jew-Shmuel sssSmolski- were the only survivors of the massacre in =
Keidan on August 28th 1941. He was the only Keidaner Jew who was an eye =
witness to what had happened there on that day.My Mum's first cousin =
-Yehuda(Yudel) Ronder lives in Kaunas today and some of you have =
probably met him.
I am not a genealogist but am a Keidan groupie and am looking for family =
information wherever I can. I grew up without relatives (my Mum was the =
only one of her family who emigrated to Israel in 1934) and with a lot =
of Keidan stories to the point that every Keidaner was received by me =
as a first degree relative.My uncle Chyim's letters >from Lithuania in =
my childhood had a huge impact on me.
I hope to translate some of them which I think may interest you too. I =
have visited Keidan twice(1993 and 1994)
I was amazed to find out that there are some more people who bother to =
occupy themselves with Keidan.
I am interested in information about 1. RONDER in the U.S.A. In 1967 I =
have met Al and Edna Ronder who used to live in Up State N.Y. I know =
they had a son .I lost touch with them since. 2.Do you have any =
information about JACK BRAVERMAN, or his children (if he had any)? He =
was a Ronder and I don't know who in his family had changed his name =
to Bravrman(to avoid enlisting to the army)His family lived in =
Krakinova.I found him in the Keidan American memory book and his =
tombstone in Ada Greenblatt's list of Keidaners tombstones in =
Washington cemetery.in Brooklyn N.Y. 3.Do you have any information =
about any BRAVERMAN in Glasgow or any other place in Scotland (also =
those Bravermans were originally Ronder's).
Last,but not least I too want to thank Andy and express my appreciation =
for his great wonderful work-Yishar Koach!!!
My compliments and Appreciation too to Ada Greenblatt for her hard work.
If I can be of any help to you -please let me know.
Sara Yakubovski sarayaku@...

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C00AB6.F3B49E40
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1255" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>From:Sara =
Yakubovski</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>P.O.B. 8075,Haifa&nbsp; =
31080,=20
Israel</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>E-Mail: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:sarayaku@...">sarayaku@...</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>Hello and Shalom to my =
fellow=20
Keidaners,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>My name is Sara,I was born =
in Israel and=20
my Keidaner link is my mother -Mina&nbsp; RONDER&nbsp; who was a sister =
of=20
Chayim Ronder who together with a Polish Jew-Shmuel sssSmolski- were the =
only=20
survivors of the massacre in Keidan on August 28th 1941. He was the only =

Keidaner Jew&nbsp; who was an eye witness to what had happened there on =
that=20
day.My Mum's first cousin -Yehuda(Yudel) Ronder lives in Kaunas today =
and some=20
of you have&nbsp; probably met him.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>I am not a genealogist but =
am a Keidan=20
groupie and am looking for family information wherever I<EM> </EM>can. I =
grew up=20
without&nbsp; relatives (my Mum was the only one of her family who =
emigrated to=20
Israel in 1934) and with a lot&nbsp; of Keidan stories to the point that =
every=20
Keidaner was received by me as a&nbsp; first degree relative.My uncle =
Chyim's=20
letters >from Lithuania in my childhood&nbsp; had a huge impact on=20
me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>I&nbsp;hope to translate =
some of them=20
which I think may interest you too. I have visited Keidan twice(1993 and =

1994)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>&nbsp;I was amazed to find =
out that=20
there are some more people who bother to occupy themselves with=20
Keidan.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>I am interested in =
information=20
about&nbsp;<STRONG>1. </STRONG>RONDER in the&nbsp; U.S.A. In 1967 I =
have met Al=20
and Edna Ronder who used to live in Up State N.Y. I&nbsp; know they had =
a son .I=20
lost touch with them since.&nbsp;<STRONG>2.</STRONG>Do you have any =
information=20
about JACK&nbsp;BRAVERMAN, or his children (if he had any)? He was&nbsp; =
a =20
Ronder and I don't know who in his family had changed his name to =
Bravrman(to=20
avoid enlisting to the army)His family lived in Krakinova.I found him in =
the=20
Keidan American&nbsp; memory book and his tombstone in&nbsp;&nbsp;Ada=20
Greenblatt's&nbsp; list of Keidaners tombstones in Washington&nbsp; =
cemetery.in=20
Brooklyn N.Y. <STRONG>3.</STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Do you have any =
information about=20
any BRAVERMAN in Glasgow or any other place in Scotland (also those =
Bravermans=20
were originally Ronder's).</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>Last,but not least I&nbsp; =
too want to=20
thank Andy and express my appreciation for his great wonderful =
work-Yishar=20
Koach!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>My compliments and =
Appreciation too to=20
Ada Greenblatt for her hard work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>If I can be of any help to =
you -please=20
let me know.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>Sara Yakubovski&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<A=20
href=3D"mailto:sarayaku@...">sarayaku@...</A></=
FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C00AB6.F3B49E40--

Keidan Jews #Keidan #Lithuania Introduction #lithuania

sara <sarayaku@...>
 

f`z di` decrd nxeaz glwim arivea MIME.

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C00AB6.F3B49E40
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From:Sara Yakubovski
P.O.B. 8075,Haifa 31080, Israel
E-Mail: sarayaku@...

Hello and Shalom to my fellow Keidaners,
My name is Sara,I was born in Israel and my Keidaner link is my mother =
-Mina RONDER who was a sister of Chayim Ronder who together with a =
Polish Jew-Shmuel sssSmolski- were the only survivors of the massacre in =
Keidan on August 28th 1941. He was the only Keidaner Jew who was an eye =
witness to what had happened there on that day.My Mum's first cousin =
-Yehuda(Yudel) Ronder lives in Kaunas today and some of you have =
probably met him.
I am not a genealogist but am a Keidan groupie and am looking for family =
information wherever I can. I grew up without relatives (my Mum was the =
only one of her family who emigrated to Israel in 1934) and with a lot =
of Keidan stories to the point that every Keidaner was received by me =
as a first degree relative.My uncle Chyim's letters >from Lithuania in =
my childhood had a huge impact on me.
I hope to translate some of them which I think may interest you too. I =
have visited Keidan twice(1993 and 1994)
I was amazed to find out that there are some more people who bother to =
occupy themselves with Keidan.
I am interested in information about 1. RONDER in the U.S.A. In 1967 I =
have met Al and Edna Ronder who used to live in Up State N.Y. I know =
they had a son .I lost touch with them since. 2.Do you have any =
information about JACK BRAVERMAN, or his children (if he had any)? He =
was a Ronder and I don't know who in his family had changed his name =
to Bravrman(to avoid enlisting to the army)His family lived in =
Krakinova.I found him in the Keidan American memory book and his =
tombstone in Ada Greenblatt's list of Keidaners tombstones in =
Washington cemetery.in Brooklyn N.Y. 3.Do you have any information =
about any BRAVERMAN in Glasgow or any other place in Scotland (also =
those Bravermans were originally Ronder's).
Last,but not least I too want to thank Andy and express my appreciation =
for his great wonderful work-Yishar Koach!!!
My compliments and Appreciation too to Ada Greenblatt for her hard work.
If I can be of any help to you -please let me know.
Sara Yakubovski sarayaku@...

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C00AB6.F3B49E40
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="windows-1255"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1255" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>From:Sara =
Yakubovski</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>P.O.B. 8075,Haifa&nbsp; =
31080,=20
Israel</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>E-Mail: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:sarayaku@...">sarayaku@...</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>Hello and Shalom to my =
fellow=20
Keidaners,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>My name is Sara,I was born =
in Israel and=20
my Keidaner link is my mother -Mina&nbsp; RONDER&nbsp; who was a sister =
of=20
Chayim Ronder who together with a Polish Jew-Shmuel sssSmolski- were the =
only=20
survivors of the massacre in Keidan on August 28th 1941. He was the only =

Keidaner Jew&nbsp; who was an eye witness to what had happened there on =
that=20
day.My Mum's first cousin -Yehuda(Yudel) Ronder lives in Kaunas today =
and some=20
of you have&nbsp; probably met him.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>I am not a genealogist but =
am a Keidan=20
groupie and am looking for family information wherever I<EM> </EM>can. I =
grew up=20
without&nbsp; relatives (my Mum was the only one of her family who =
emigrated to=20
Israel in 1934) and with a lot&nbsp; of Keidan stories to the point that =
every=20
Keidaner was received by me as a&nbsp; first degree relative.My uncle =
Chyim's=20
letters >from Lithuania in my childhood&nbsp; had a huge impact on=20
me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>I&nbsp;hope to translate =
some of them=20
which I think may interest you too. I have visited Keidan twice(1993 and =

1994)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>&nbsp;I was amazed to find =
out that=20
there are some more people who bother to occupy themselves with=20
Keidan.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>I am interested in =
information=20
about&nbsp;<STRONG>1. </STRONG>RONDER in the&nbsp; U.S.A. In 1967 I =
have met Al=20
and Edna Ronder who used to live in Up State N.Y. I&nbsp; know they had =
a son .I=20
lost touch with them since.&nbsp;<STRONG>2.</STRONG>Do you have any =
information=20
about JACK&nbsp;BRAVERMAN, or his children (if he had any)? He was&nbsp; =
a =20
Ronder and I don't know who in his family had changed his name to =
Bravrman(to=20
avoid enlisting to the army)His family lived in Krakinova.I found him in =
the=20
Keidan American&nbsp; memory book and his tombstone in&nbsp;&nbsp;Ada=20
Greenblatt's&nbsp; list of Keidaners tombstones in Washington&nbsp; =
cemetery.in=20
Brooklyn N.Y. <STRONG>3.</STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Do you have any =
information about=20
any BRAVERMAN in Glasgow or any other place in Scotland (also those =
Bravermans=20
were originally Ronder's).</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>Last,but not least I&nbsp; =
too want to=20
thank Andy and express my appreciation for his great wonderful =
work-Yishar=20
Koach!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>My compliments and =
Appreciation too to=20
Ada Greenblatt for her hard work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>If I can be of any help to =
you -please=20
let me know.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial (hebrew)" size=3D2>Sara Yakubovski&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<A=20
href=3D"mailto:sarayaku@...">sarayaku@...</A></=
FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C00AB6.F3B49E40--

FHL - Catalog of Jewish Records #general

Howard Margol
 

Those of you who were present at the recent IAJGS 20th International
Conference of Jewish Genealogical Societies, are aware that the
Genealogical Society of Utah (FHL) presented to IAJGS, as a gift, a CD
containing a catalog of all of the Jewish records in the Family History
Library. A 12-volume beatifully bound set, consisting of a printout of
the catalog, was also presented to IAJGS.

The IAJGS Board of Directors voted to donate the hard copy printout of the
catalog to The Center for Jewish History in New York City. Rachel Fisher,
Director of the Center for Jewish History Genealogy Institute called me
and accepted the donation. Being at the Center will ensure that the
catalog will receive wide availability for those who go there to do
research.

After receiving the gift of the CD containing the catalog, our first
thought was to produce copies and distribute them free of charge to all
IAJGS member societies. We were very disappointed, however, upon learning
that the CD had no search capability. Because of this, it's use would be
somewhat limited and it was decided not to distribute copies without first
investigating to see if a search engine could be added to the CD. That
possibility is now under consideration.

In the meantime, the IAJGS Board decided to have the catalog displayed on
JewishGen, in a searchable format, so it could be available to everyone,
with internet access, throughout the world. The CD has been forwarded to
JewishGen and, as soon as the technicalities have been worked out, the
catalog will be available. I am sure Susan King, and her wonderful group of
volunteers, will make it happen as soon as possible. Watch the JewishGen
web site, and the JewishGen Digest, for announcements about it's
availability.

Nancy Goodstein, a volunteer worker at the Family History Library, labored
for almost a year in compiling this catalog. She did a tremendous job and
we cannot thank her enough for her efforts on our behalf. Nancy's
accomplishment will bear fruit for thousands of Jewish genealogists around
the world for years to come. In addition, Nancy has agreed to keep the
catalog updated as additional Jewish records are found or are received by
the Library. Nancy, on behalf of everyone, I sincerely thank you.

Howard Margol
President, IAJGS

JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen FHL - Catalog of Jewish Records #general

Howard Margol
 

Those of you who were present at the recent IAJGS 20th International
Conference of Jewish Genealogical Societies, are aware that the
Genealogical Society of Utah (FHL) presented to IAJGS, as a gift, a CD
containing a catalog of all of the Jewish records in the Family History
Library. A 12-volume beatifully bound set, consisting of a printout of
the catalog, was also presented to IAJGS.

The IAJGS Board of Directors voted to donate the hard copy printout of the
catalog to The Center for Jewish History in New York City. Rachel Fisher,
Director of the Center for Jewish History Genealogy Institute called me
and accepted the donation. Being at the Center will ensure that the
catalog will receive wide availability for those who go there to do
research.

After receiving the gift of the CD containing the catalog, our first
thought was to produce copies and distribute them free of charge to all
IAJGS member societies. We were very disappointed, however, upon learning
that the CD had no search capability. Because of this, it's use would be
somewhat limited and it was decided not to distribute copies without first
investigating to see if a search engine could be added to the CD. That
possibility is now under consideration.

In the meantime, the IAJGS Board decided to have the catalog displayed on
JewishGen, in a searchable format, so it could be available to everyone,
with internet access, throughout the world. The CD has been forwarded to
JewishGen and, as soon as the technicalities have been worked out, the
catalog will be available. I am sure Susan King, and her wonderful group of
volunteers, will make it happen as soon as possible. Watch the JewishGen
web site, and the JewishGen Digest, for announcements about it's
availability.

Nancy Goodstein, a volunteer worker at the Family History Library, labored
for almost a year in compiling this catalog. She did a tremendous job and
we cannot thank her enough for her efforts on our behalf. Nancy's
accomplishment will bear fruit for thousands of Jewish genealogists around
the world for years to come. In addition, Nancy has agreed to keep the
catalog updated as additional Jewish records are found or are received by
the Library. Nancy, on behalf of everyone, I sincerely thank you.

Howard Margol
President, IAJGS

September meeting of JGS Orange County (California) #general

Dorothy Kohanski <dkohanski@...>
 

The next meeting of the Jewish Genealogy Society of Orange County will
be Sunday, September 10, 2 -4 PM at the Federation Board room of the
Jewish Community Center, 250 East Baker Street, Costa Mesa. The speaker
will be Dr. Rob Weisskirch, co-president. His topic will be "Using
University Library Search Systems".

Professor Weisskirch is a faculty member of the Fullerton Department of
Child and Adolescent Studies. He is also an accomplished genealogist,
and serves as moderator and co-organizer (together with Carol Skydell)
of the Latin American Special Interest Group (SIG)
<www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/latamsig.txt>. Over the past nine years he
has been part of Jewish genealogy groups in San Diego, Sacramento,
Argentina and Orange County, Proving that it is truly a small world, he
once found an unknown relative at a meeting of just 30 people in
Sacramento.

Dorothy Kohanski <dkohanski@...>
Laguna Woods, CA

JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen September meeting of JGS Orange County (California) #general

Dorothy Kohanski <dkohanski@...>
 

The next meeting of the Jewish Genealogy Society of Orange County will
be Sunday, September 10, 2 -4 PM at the Federation Board room of the
Jewish Community Center, 250 East Baker Street, Costa Mesa. The speaker
will be Dr. Rob Weisskirch, co-president. His topic will be "Using
University Library Search Systems".

Professor Weisskirch is a faculty member of the Fullerton Department of
Child and Adolescent Studies. He is also an accomplished genealogist,
and serves as moderator and co-organizer (together with Carol Skydell)
of the Latin American Special Interest Group (SIG)
<www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/latamsig.txt>. Over the past nine years he
has been part of Jewish genealogy groups in San Diego, Sacramento,
Argentina and Orange County, Proving that it is truly a small world, he
once found an unknown relative at a meeting of just 30 people in
Sacramento.

Dorothy Kohanski <dkohanski@...>
Laguna Woods, CA

Cantonists #belarus

nyzvezi@...
 

I am interested in learning of and hearing >from other people and
families that are descendents of Russian Cantonists, also any having
relatives in Finland now.

Norman Zelvin,
Eastchester, NY
nyzvezi@...

-----------------
MODERATOR NOTE:
It is not specifically related to Belarus, but as the
cantonists came >from Belarus as well as other places
where Jews lived, I think it might be of interest for
this group also.
-----------------

Belarus SIG #Belarus Cantonists #belarus

nyzvezi@...
 

I am interested in learning of and hearing >from other people and
families that are descendents of Russian Cantonists, also any having
relatives in Finland now.

Norman Zelvin,
Eastchester, NY
nyzvezi@...

-----------------
MODERATOR NOTE:
It is not specifically related to Belarus, but as the
cantonists came >from Belarus as well as other places
where Jews lived, I think it might be of interest for
this group also.
-----------------

Re: Was someone born in Galicia considered a Pole or Austrian #galicia

Adelle Gloger
 

Dear Group,

I believe I passed over the original question because I assumed that a
simple explanation or example would be forthcoming.

My explanation and example is this:

My grandfather's brother arrived in New York City, NY in
1909. On his Petition for Naturalization in 1915 his place of birth is given
as Grymalov, Austria. He renounced all allegiance to "Francis Joseph,
Emperor of Austria and Apostolic King of Hungary."

My grandfather arrived New York City, NY in 1925. On his Petition
for Naturalization in 1931 his place of birth is given as Grymalov, Poland.
He renounced all allegiance to "The Republic of Poland."


The town remained in the same geographic location. At the time they
were born 1870s/1880s the town was in Austria. By the time my grandfather
left after WW 1, it was now in Poland.

My father, born 1906 in Tarnapol came to USA in 1922. His petition for
naturalization indicates he was born in Tarnapol, Poland. His naturalization
certificate indicates "former nationality: Poland"

The same for my father-in-law. He was born in Goradenka in 1894.
When he came here in 1912 it was Austria. When was naturalized in 1926 it
was Poland. He never said he was >from Poland---always Galicia.

Our family *never* considered ourselves Polish. We were never
identified as Austrian. We were Galitzianers >from Galicia ! Only when it
came to legal/gov't issues was Poland ever identified as their birthplace.

So, I imagine it's a personal choice as to how one wants to be
'considered'. But, all things 'considered' (excuse the pun) those born in
Galicia usually considered themselves to be Galitzianers no matter what the
jurisdiction.


Adelle Weintraub Gloger
Shaker Hts., Ohio
agloger@...

Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia RE: Was someone born in Galicia considered a Pole or Austrian #galicia

Adelle Gloger
 

Dear Group,

I believe I passed over the original question because I assumed that a
simple explanation or example would be forthcoming.

My explanation and example is this:

My grandfather's brother arrived in New York City, NY in
1909. On his Petition for Naturalization in 1915 his place of birth is given
as Grymalov, Austria. He renounced all allegiance to "Francis Joseph,
Emperor of Austria and Apostolic King of Hungary."

My grandfather arrived New York City, NY in 1925. On his Petition
for Naturalization in 1931 his place of birth is given as Grymalov, Poland.
He renounced all allegiance to "The Republic of Poland."


The town remained in the same geographic location. At the time they
were born 1870s/1880s the town was in Austria. By the time my grandfather
left after WW 1, it was now in Poland.

My father, born 1906 in Tarnapol came to USA in 1922. His petition for
naturalization indicates he was born in Tarnapol, Poland. His naturalization
certificate indicates "former nationality: Poland"

The same for my father-in-law. He was born in Goradenka in 1894.
When he came here in 1912 it was Austria. When was naturalized in 1926 it
was Poland. He never said he was >from Poland---always Galicia.

Our family *never* considered ourselves Polish. We were never
identified as Austrian. We were Galitzianers >from Galicia ! Only when it
came to legal/gov't issues was Poland ever identified as their birthplace.

So, I imagine it's a personal choice as to how one wants to be
'considered'. But, all things 'considered' (excuse the pun) those born in
Galicia usually considered themselves to be Galitzianers no matter what the
jurisdiction.


Adelle Weintraub Gloger
Shaker Hts., Ohio
agloger@...

Polish, Austrian, Ukrainian, etc? #galicia

Wwhwhf@...
 

To respond to Peter Jaseem:

Your entire argument depends first on which historical period one is
discussing. Attitudes prevalent in the l9th century and those of the early
and mid-20th century were not the same. To a large degree, it also depends
on which country one is considering and even which socio-economic class of
Jews.

Furthermore and as for Poland, although by post World War II everyone thought
that your argument held true, the post World War II purge in Poland of Jews
who considered themselves wholly Polish brought all that back into question,
just the way the Nazis brought German Jews up short. In the post-war
communist period, 30,000 Poles, who happened to be Jews, suddenly discovered
that they were still really Jews who happened to be Poles. They had to leave
Poland. Many of them went to Sweden, where I met some about 30 years ago or
so, and some came to the U.S., one of whom I know well, Her husband was a
post-War World II Polish diplomat whose abilities and patriotism made no
difference.

Lieberman is not as parallel an example as he may appear at first sight.
America, American attitudes and tradition, are still quite different >from
Poland and Polilsh attitudes.

German Jews between the World Wars, in general, did not feel more German than
Jewish. Even the most patriotic felt both. In any case, comparing them with
Jews in pre-World War I, or even pre-World War II, Poland is comparing kasha
and borsht.

The argument is a complex one and depends on many factors. Simple answers
and simplistic comparisons are naive.

Bill Fern

Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Polish, Austrian, Ukrainian, etc? #galicia

Wwhwhf@...
 

To respond to Peter Jaseem:

Your entire argument depends first on which historical period one is
discussing. Attitudes prevalent in the l9th century and those of the early
and mid-20th century were not the same. To a large degree, it also depends
on which country one is considering and even which socio-economic class of
Jews.

Furthermore and as for Poland, although by post World War II everyone thought
that your argument held true, the post World War II purge in Poland of Jews
who considered themselves wholly Polish brought all that back into question,
just the way the Nazis brought German Jews up short. In the post-war
communist period, 30,000 Poles, who happened to be Jews, suddenly discovered
that they were still really Jews who happened to be Poles. They had to leave
Poland. Many of them went to Sweden, where I met some about 30 years ago or
so, and some came to the U.S., one of whom I know well, Her husband was a
post-War World II Polish diplomat whose abilities and patriotism made no
difference.

Lieberman is not as parallel an example as he may appear at first sight.
America, American attitudes and tradition, are still quite different >from
Poland and Polilsh attitudes.

German Jews between the World Wars, in general, did not feel more German than
Jewish. Even the most patriotic felt both. In any case, comparing them with
Jews in pre-World War I, or even pre-World War II, Poland is comparing kasha
and borsht.

The argument is a complex one and depends on many factors. Simple answers
and simplistic comparisons are naive.

Bill Fern

The STRUMA PROJECT - AN UPDATE #galicia

Judy Davies <Jude@...>
 

Dear moderator,

Thank you for uploading the letter regarding the Struma Project
- & thank you to Joe Ives for his response.
An article appeared in the London Times today ,which explores the incident &
todays reactions in Turkey to the Project & The Tragedy >from all points of
view.
I am a fairly young person and have a great affection for Turkey & have
enjoyed wonderful hospitality & kindness >from Turkish people -it is a
vibrant & exciting country.
I know many thousands of Jewish people >from Gallicia , Romania etc survived
by escaping through Turkey & of course not forgetting the Sephardic Jews who
gained refuge in Turkey after the expulsion >from Spain . Idealistically , I
have the hope that countries need to face their pasts even handedly &
openly about past glories & less glorious episodes to build stronger futures
for us all & generally over time they do, partly due to the voices of people
like those who organise Jewish Gen for us to regain & retain our heritage.
I am confident that The Turkish Government will continue to support the
Struma Project.

The article is at :
http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/Times/frontpage.html?1124027


Thank you - Judith Davies, London England
Looking for Wiessbachs & Kindlers


[Now, back to genealogy! -Mod]

Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia The STRUMA PROJECT - AN UPDATE #galicia

Judy Davies <Jude@...>
 

Dear moderator,

Thank you for uploading the letter regarding the Struma Project
- & thank you to Joe Ives for his response.
An article appeared in the London Times today ,which explores the incident &
todays reactions in Turkey to the Project & The Tragedy >from all points of
view.
I am a fairly young person and have a great affection for Turkey & have
enjoyed wonderful hospitality & kindness >from Turkish people -it is a
vibrant & exciting country.
I know many thousands of Jewish people >from Gallicia , Romania etc survived
by escaping through Turkey & of course not forgetting the Sephardic Jews who
gained refuge in Turkey after the expulsion >from Spain . Idealistically , I
have the hope that countries need to face their pasts even handedly &
openly about past glories & less glorious episodes to build stronger futures
for us all & generally over time they do, partly due to the voices of people
like those who organise Jewish Gen for us to regain & retain our heritage.
I am confident that The Turkish Government will continue to support the
Struma Project.

The article is at :
http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/Times/frontpage.html?1124027


Thank you - Judith Davies, London England
Looking for Wiessbachs & Kindlers


[Now, back to genealogy! -Mod]

Re: Nationality #galicia

Hcounter@...
 

In a message dated 8/17/00 11:53:15 PM Central Daylight Time,
jassep@... writes:

<< The letter says:
>Thanks, any Jew born in Galica should be considered Jewish, not Polish,
>Ukrainian, etc. The thought of my grandparents being "considered"
>Ukrainian (or any of the others) makes me physically ill. The governments
>and most of the people did not consider the Jews to be Polish, Ukranian,
>nor, God forbid, German. And neither should we. Regards, H...

Dear H..., your comment is very emotional and I understand this. >>


I was married to a Russian Jew. He too, if asked what his nationality was
would respond Jewish. So did all his relatives that I met. I found it an
interesting and somewhat confusing statement. Since I was not Jewish, I had
considered him American of Russian extract since both his parents were born
in Russia, but his religion as Jewish. Just as I considered myself American
of Irish, English and Czech extraction (most of my grandparents or
great-grandparents were born in those countries), and my religion Catholic.

At this point, since I have been unable to discover his father's immigration
papers or naturalization papers, I have not been able to get past this point.
However, a possible real last name would suggest that his father was
possibly of Polish extraction.

The only reasoning I could come up with is that because of anti-Semitism
throughout the ages, the Jewish people felt alot like the Germans >from Russia
do -- they are Germans who happen to have ancestors who spent 200 or less
years in Russia.

Neither my husband nor his relatives really gave me an answer to why they
felt their nationality was Jewish, but they do.

Annie

Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Re: Nationality #galicia

Hcounter@...
 

In a message dated 8/17/00 11:53:15 PM Central Daylight Time,
jassep@... writes:

<< The letter says:
>Thanks, any Jew born in Galica should be considered Jewish, not Polish,
>Ukrainian, etc. The thought of my grandparents being "considered"
>Ukrainian (or any of the others) makes me physically ill. The governments
>and most of the people did not consider the Jews to be Polish, Ukranian,
>nor, God forbid, German. And neither should we. Regards, H...

Dear H..., your comment is very emotional and I understand this. >>


I was married to a Russian Jew. He too, if asked what his nationality was
would respond Jewish. So did all his relatives that I met. I found it an
interesting and somewhat confusing statement. Since I was not Jewish, I had
considered him American of Russian extract since both his parents were born
in Russia, but his religion as Jewish. Just as I considered myself American
of Irish, English and Czech extraction (most of my grandparents or
great-grandparents were born in those countries), and my religion Catholic.

At this point, since I have been unable to discover his father's immigration
papers or naturalization papers, I have not been able to get past this point.
However, a possible real last name would suggest that his father was
possibly of Polish extraction.

The only reasoning I could come up with is that because of anti-Semitism
throughout the ages, the Jewish people felt alot like the Germans >from Russia
do -- they are Germans who happen to have ancestors who spent 200 or less
years in Russia.

Neither my husband nor his relatives really gave me an answer to why they
felt their nationality was Jewish, but they do.

Annie