Date   

ZALMINOVICH/FREYERMAN #belarus

renee1056@...
 

I wish to thank the belarus web page because of all there listings I was
able to find my great grandparents name and discover there true place of
residence. ZALMINOVICH did own a grocery store in Klimovichskii Mogilev
as I was told by my mother about her mothers family. All I had to go on
was that little information about a store and a passport name. I look
forward to new information >from the Belarus web site. This is the first
information that I have found in my three year search. Thank you again
and to all the volunteers that typed it all out. God Bless all of you.
I was also able to locate a cousin on my fathers side because of Romanian
sig. God Bless Joel for doing all the work that he has done. None of
this would have been possible without the Jewish gen web site.

Renee Marcus
Searching for ZALMINOVICH/FREYERMAN


Belarus SIG #Belarus ZALMINOVICH/FREYERMAN #belarus

renee1056@...
 

I wish to thank the belarus web page because of all there listings I was
able to find my great grandparents name and discover there true place of
residence. ZALMINOVICH did own a grocery store in Klimovichskii Mogilev
as I was told by my mother about her mothers family. All I had to go on
was that little information about a store and a passport name. I look
forward to new information >from the Belarus web site. This is the first
information that I have found in my three year search. Thank you again
and to all the volunteers that typed it all out. God Bless all of you.
I was also able to locate a cousin on my fathers side because of Romanian
sig. God Bless Joel for doing all the work that he has done. None of
this would have been possible without the Jewish gen web site.

Renee Marcus
Searching for ZALMINOVICH/FREYERMAN


Surnames in Cuba and South America - origins? #general

Ben Fox <bfgp@...>
 

In Latin America (and Spain) it is customary for children to bear
both the father's and mother's surname.
Does anyone know where this traditon originates? I have discovered that
someone on my family tree >from Liepaja (was Libava) in Latvia appeared
to have a double barrelled surname. The first part was a shortened
version of his mother's surname, and the last part was his father's
surname in full.

I am not unsure whether his father's name is double barrelled as well,
or whether the name "Azriel" was a middle name.

Any suggestions would be welcome.
Thanks in advance,

Gail

For example, I was Maria
Fernandez Rosales before I married. Women used their married
names as an addendum to their maiden names. My mother was Nilda
Rosales de Fernandez in Cuba (the "de" means literally "of").
When children were born, they would have a compound surname. If
you didn't have the double surname, people knew you were the
product of a relationship outside of marriage. Women were always
very proud of bearing their father's surname besides their
husbands (at least my mother always was). This custom still
abounds in the Spanish-speaking countries. Hope this helps.
Kindest Regards,
:) Maria Krane <MariaKrane@aol.com>


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Surnames in Cuba and South America - origins? #general

Ben Fox <bfgp@...>
 

In Latin America (and Spain) it is customary for children to bear
both the father's and mother's surname.
Does anyone know where this traditon originates? I have discovered that
someone on my family tree >from Liepaja (was Libava) in Latvia appeared
to have a double barrelled surname. The first part was a shortened
version of his mother's surname, and the last part was his father's
surname in full.

I am not unsure whether his father's name is double barrelled as well,
or whether the name "Azriel" was a middle name.

Any suggestions would be welcome.
Thanks in advance,

Gail

For example, I was Maria
Fernandez Rosales before I married. Women used their married
names as an addendum to their maiden names. My mother was Nilda
Rosales de Fernandez in Cuba (the "de" means literally "of").
When children were born, they would have a compound surname. If
you didn't have the double surname, people knew you were the
product of a relationship outside of marriage. Women were always
very proud of bearing their father's surname besides their
husbands (at least my mother always was). This custom still
abounds in the Spanish-speaking countries. Hope this helps.
Kindest Regards,
:) Maria Krane <MariaKrane@aol.com>


Morris FEIGEN - SS-5 #general

Sally Hohensee <hohensees@...>
 

I have the Social Security application for Morris FEIGEN, born 1917
in Minnesota, father Isreal FEIGEN, mother Jennie MEIZLIN. Resident
of California in 1938. If he is "yours" please contact me at
HohenseeS@hotmail.com and I will be happy to mail it to you.

Sally Hohensee
Prairie Village, Kansas, USA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Morris FEIGEN - SS-5 #general

Sally Hohensee <hohensees@...>
 

I have the Social Security application for Morris FEIGEN, born 1917
in Minnesota, father Isreal FEIGEN, mother Jennie MEIZLIN. Resident
of California in 1938. If he is "yours" please contact me at
HohenseeS@hotmail.com and I will be happy to mail it to you.

Sally Hohensee
Prairie Village, Kansas, USA


Klarsfeld's Book on Jewish Deportees From Belgium #general

Jerry Dressner <idajer@...>
 

Does anyone know where I can purchase a copy of the book, "Memorial de
la Deportation des Juifs de Belgique"? It was compiled by Serge
Klarsfeld and Maxime Steinberg. I don't know the publisher or the date
of publication.

Jerry Dressner
Lake Worth
Florida


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Klarsfeld's Book on Jewish Deportees From Belgium #general

Jerry Dressner <idajer@...>
 

Does anyone know where I can purchase a copy of the book, "Memorial de
la Deportation des Juifs de Belgique"? It was compiled by Serge
Klarsfeld and Maxime Steinberg. I don't know the publisher or the date
of publication.

Jerry Dressner
Lake Worth
Florida


Looking for descendants of Ishai LUDMER of Bessarabia #general

David and Marcia Chamovitz <chamodm@...>
 

Dear friends,

Marcia Applebaum Chamovitz continues to look for descendents of Ishai
LUDMER of Bessarabia. Her grandmother Chana, went to England and 20 years
later on to Brooklyn; that family we have in great detail. We know there
were 2 siblings (we assumed both males) who went to Argentina on the Wesser
in 1889 and settled in Moisesville. One was Joseph. With the magnificent
assistance of Paul Armony, head of the Argentine JewGen and especially Eve
Gilbert Rosenthal, Director of the M'ville Museum, I have found 130 of his
descendents, thus far, mostly in Rosario but some also in BuenosAires and
the USA.

I just returned >from a trip to Buenos Aires, Rosario, and Moisesville,
Argentine and found that the 2nd "brother" was Eva Yocheved Ludmer who
married Yitzchak HELMAN (called ELMANT on the Wesser manifest.) Data of
her grandchildren is now coming in.

I would appreciate information on relatives of Joseph Ludmer and Eve Helman.

Marcia Chamovitz
Tel Aviv, Israel


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Looking for descendants of Ishai LUDMER of Bessarabia #general

David and Marcia Chamovitz <chamodm@...>
 

Dear friends,

Marcia Applebaum Chamovitz continues to look for descendents of Ishai
LUDMER of Bessarabia. Her grandmother Chana, went to England and 20 years
later on to Brooklyn; that family we have in great detail. We know there
were 2 siblings (we assumed both males) who went to Argentina on the Wesser
in 1889 and settled in Moisesville. One was Joseph. With the magnificent
assistance of Paul Armony, head of the Argentine JewGen and especially Eve
Gilbert Rosenthal, Director of the M'ville Museum, I have found 130 of his
descendents, thus far, mostly in Rosario but some also in BuenosAires and
the USA.

I just returned >from a trip to Buenos Aires, Rosario, and Moisesville,
Argentine and found that the 2nd "brother" was Eva Yocheved Ludmer who
married Yitzchak HELMAN (called ELMANT on the Wesser manifest.) Data of
her grandchildren is now coming in.

I would appreciate information on relatives of Joseph Ludmer and Eve Helman.

Marcia Chamovitz
Tel Aviv, Israel


Chicago, Illinois--the Cook County Archives #general

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
 

A while ago, I visited the Cook County Archives (Chicago, Illinois)
for a second visit--for 2 eight-hour days. So, of course, now I am
an expert!

Chicago has always had one of the largest communities in the United
States, so perhaps information on this city will be of interest to a
few readers.

As an out-of-towner, I was in a great rush to look up my names. A few
weeks earlier, I was unprepared for my first visit to the Archives--and
thus was terribly inefficient at looking up my names. Before my second
visit, I took stock of the organization of materials at the Archives.
This made my second visit wonderfully more relaxed and productive.

In case it is of value to anyone, I offer this inventory of searchable
materials at the Cook County Archives. I hope that those readers who
are more knowledgeable will help to correct my errors and omissions.

Note please:

o The list below is not absolultely complete. But I do hope
you find it useful.

o I am not really an expert. I am just sharing info that I
have collected.

o The staff at the Cook County Archives are very helpful!
Call them, and they will send you (free) a short guide to
the Archives.

Cook County Archives
Daley Center
50 West Washington, Room 1113
Chicago, IL 60602
tel: 1-312-603-6601
fax: 1-312-603-4974
http://www.cookctyclerk.com/

At the Cook County Archives, you can search the items below.

--Naturalizations, 1871-1929, for a few states near and including Illinois
Search by soundex code.

--Probate, 1871-1963, Cook County
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

1911-1928; 1928-1935; 1936-1943; 1944-1951; 1952-1953;
1952-1953; 1954-1955; 1956-1959; 1960; 1963; 1963, 1964-1965
(years before 1911, too, I think)

--Law and Chancery, Cook County
Covers divorce; business, industry; labor; medical, sports;
name changes; and other stuff too.
There are seaparate films for plaintiff and defendant.
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

Superior Court
1886-1891; 1886-1891; 1892-1895; 1896-1899; 1900-1903; 1904-1909;
1908-1911; 1912-1915; 1916-1919; 1920-1921; 1922-1923; 1924-1925;
1926-1927; 1928-1929; 1930-1931; 1932-1933; 1934-1935; 1936-1937;
1938-1939; 1940-1941; 1942-1943; 1944-1945; 1946; 1947; 1948-1949;
1950; 1951; 1952; 1953; 1954; 1955; 1956-1957; 1958; 1959; 1960;
1961; 1962; 1963; 1964
(films 1871 to 1885--I don't have the exact film info)

Circuit Court
1887-1890; 1891-1895; 1899-1901; 1902-1904; 1905-1908; 1909-1913;
1914-1917; 1918-1921; 1922-1924; 1925-1927; 1928-1929; 1930-1932;
1933-1934; 1935-1937; 1938-1940; 1941-1945; 1946-1950; 1951-1954;
1955-1957; 1958; 1959; 1960; 1961; 1962; 1963; 1964; 1965
(films 1871 to 1886--I don't have the exact film info)

--Probate/Incompetents
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

1911-1939; 1940-1957; 1958-1963; 1962-1964

--Probate/Minors and Conservators
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

1871-1915; 1916-1921; 1916-1921

--Probate/Minors and incompetents
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

1967; 1968; 1969; 1970; 1971; 1972; 1973; 1974; 1975; 1976

--Probate/Minors Index
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

1911-1939 (4/20/1911 to 12/31/1939); 1940-1962; 1962-1963;
1963-1964; 1965-1966

--Criminal Felony Cases, Cook County
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

1927-1934
(other films too, but I don't have the film info on these)

--A single computer with records >from the 1980s-present

Bond
Chancery
Child Support
Civil
Criminal (felony, misdemeanor)
Domestic Relations
Law
Probate
Traffic Division

I hope this helps a few of you!

Here are some other links that you may find helpful for
Chicago, Cook County, and Illinois in general:

Cemeteries
http://www.graveyards.com/list.html
http://www.jewishgen.org/cemetery/northamerica/us/illchgo.html

Marriages
http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/sinai.htm
http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/archives/marriage.html

Obituaries
http://chicagotribune.com/news/obituaries/
http://www.obitdetails.com/legacyhome.asp

Land records
http://www.assessor.co.cook.il.us/startsearch.html

Illinois state archives
*** One URL, in two halves *** :
http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/archives/
genealogy/globsrch.html

Dan

P.S. There must be a load of errors above. But, still, I hope
this will help a few people who want to search for lots of
information at the Archives.

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@mail.wittenberg.edu>
Springfield, Ohio USA
Poland: TALMAN, ENGLANDER, JURKIEWICZ, STRAUSBERG, KIFER, CZAPNIK
Ukraine: OBERMAN-HOBERMAN-GUBERMAN, LISS, SOBLE-SOBEL, STEIN, AXMAN
Turkey: KAZEZ-KAZES, FRESKO-FRESCO, ALHADEFF-ELHADEF
http://userpages.wittenberg.edu/dkazez/fam/ent/fam.html


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Chicago, Illinois--the Cook County Archives #general

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
 

A while ago, I visited the Cook County Archives (Chicago, Illinois)
for a second visit--for 2 eight-hour days. So, of course, now I am
an expert!

Chicago has always had one of the largest communities in the United
States, so perhaps information on this city will be of interest to a
few readers.

As an out-of-towner, I was in a great rush to look up my names. A few
weeks earlier, I was unprepared for my first visit to the Archives--and
thus was terribly inefficient at looking up my names. Before my second
visit, I took stock of the organization of materials at the Archives.
This made my second visit wonderfully more relaxed and productive.

In case it is of value to anyone, I offer this inventory of searchable
materials at the Cook County Archives. I hope that those readers who
are more knowledgeable will help to correct my errors and omissions.

Note please:

o The list below is not absolultely complete. But I do hope
you find it useful.

o I am not really an expert. I am just sharing info that I
have collected.

o The staff at the Cook County Archives are very helpful!
Call them, and they will send you (free) a short guide to
the Archives.

Cook County Archives
Daley Center
50 West Washington, Room 1113
Chicago, IL 60602
tel: 1-312-603-6601
fax: 1-312-603-4974
http://www.cookctyclerk.com/

At the Cook County Archives, you can search the items below.

--Naturalizations, 1871-1929, for a few states near and including Illinois
Search by soundex code.

--Probate, 1871-1963, Cook County
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

1911-1928; 1928-1935; 1936-1943; 1944-1951; 1952-1953;
1952-1953; 1954-1955; 1956-1959; 1960; 1963; 1963, 1964-1965
(years before 1911, too, I think)

--Law and Chancery, Cook County
Covers divorce; business, industry; labor; medical, sports;
name changes; and other stuff too.
There are seaparate films for plaintiff and defendant.
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

Superior Court
1886-1891; 1886-1891; 1892-1895; 1896-1899; 1900-1903; 1904-1909;
1908-1911; 1912-1915; 1916-1919; 1920-1921; 1922-1923; 1924-1925;
1926-1927; 1928-1929; 1930-1931; 1932-1933; 1934-1935; 1936-1937;
1938-1939; 1940-1941; 1942-1943; 1944-1945; 1946; 1947; 1948-1949;
1950; 1951; 1952; 1953; 1954; 1955; 1956-1957; 1958; 1959; 1960;
1961; 1962; 1963; 1964
(films 1871 to 1885--I don't have the exact film info)

Circuit Court
1887-1890; 1891-1895; 1899-1901; 1902-1904; 1905-1908; 1909-1913;
1914-1917; 1918-1921; 1922-1924; 1925-1927; 1928-1929; 1930-1932;
1933-1934; 1935-1937; 1938-1940; 1941-1945; 1946-1950; 1951-1954;
1955-1957; 1958; 1959; 1960; 1961; 1962; 1963; 1964; 1965
(films 1871 to 1886--I don't have the exact film info)

--Probate/Incompetents
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

1911-1939; 1940-1957; 1958-1963; 1962-1964

--Probate/Minors and Conservators
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

1871-1915; 1916-1921; 1916-1921

--Probate/Minors and incompetents
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

1967; 1968; 1969; 1970; 1971; 1972; 1973; 1974; 1975; 1976

--Probate/Minors Index
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

1911-1939 (4/20/1911 to 12/31/1939); 1940-1962; 1962-1963;
1963-1964; 1965-1966

--Criminal Felony Cases, Cook County
Search by surname, using microfilms that cover these years:

1927-1934
(other films too, but I don't have the film info on these)

--A single computer with records >from the 1980s-present

Bond
Chancery
Child Support
Civil
Criminal (felony, misdemeanor)
Domestic Relations
Law
Probate
Traffic Division

I hope this helps a few of you!

Here are some other links that you may find helpful for
Chicago, Cook County, and Illinois in general:

Cemeteries
http://www.graveyards.com/list.html
http://www.jewishgen.org/cemetery/northamerica/us/illchgo.html

Marriages
http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/sinai.htm
http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/archives/marriage.html

Obituaries
http://chicagotribune.com/news/obituaries/
http://www.obitdetails.com/legacyhome.asp

Land records
http://www.assessor.co.cook.il.us/startsearch.html

Illinois state archives
*** One URL, in two halves *** :
http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/archives/
genealogy/globsrch.html

Dan

P.S. There must be a load of errors above. But, still, I hope
this will help a few people who want to search for lots of
information at the Archives.

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@mail.wittenberg.edu>
Springfield, Ohio USA
Poland: TALMAN, ENGLANDER, JURKIEWICZ, STRAUSBERG, KIFER, CZAPNIK
Ukraine: OBERMAN-HOBERMAN-GUBERMAN, LISS, SOBLE-SOBEL, STEIN, AXMAN
Turkey: KAZEZ-KAZES, FRESKO-FRESCO, ALHADEFF-ELHADEF
http://userpages.wittenberg.edu/dkazez/fam/ent/fam.html


Re: GATTIN - possible origin #general

Harry Schlanger <hps@...>
 

It looks like Ascher refers to the newborn also.
I am left with only Rifka(=Rebecca) as the spouse's first name.

Next step is to research a Romanian database to find out the maiden name.
But how?

Thanks again Michael and much appreciated, I could not work this out on my
own.

Harry Schlanger


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen RE: GATTIN - possible origin #general

Harry Schlanger <hps@...>
 

It looks like Ascher refers to the newborn also.
I am left with only Rifka(=Rebecca) as the spouse's first name.

Next step is to research a Romanian database to find out the maiden name.
But how?

Thanks again Michael and much appreciated, I could not work this out on my
own.

Harry Schlanger


FW: GATTIN - possible origin #general

Harry Schlanger <hps@...>
 

Thanks Michael,
I read the name >from a German birth certificate for Alfred SCHLANGER. It
states:

...des Herrn Leopold Schlanger und dessen Gattin Rifka, Ascher /:Alfred:/
Schlanger

If "Gattin" means spouse in German, it's obvious the remainder Rifka, Asher
must be the name. However, now I am not sure if Rifka or Asher is the
family name, or if both are first names. Any suggestions?

Harry Schlanger




MBernet@aol.com [mailto:MBernet@aol.com]wrote:

In a message dated 1/13/01 10:51:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hps@elite.net.au writes:

<< Appreciate any leads on the Schlanger family:

Leopold SCHLANGER

b. Ujvidek, Hungry 1863 (Ujvidek renamed Novid Sad, Yugoslavia) d. Wein,
Austria 04/04/1919
married Rifka Ascher Gattin
Any leads on ancestors of Leopold, siblings would be welcome

Rifka Ascher GATTIN

Caution: The word Gattin is German for wife/spouse.

It is not impossible that someone somwhere mistook the word Gattin as a
woman's maiden name, and that it was subsequently handed down the
bureaucracy ladder.

In Romance languages (and both Romanian and Italian are Romance langueges)
Gattti, Gatto etc means "cat" and it could be a form for the common Jewish
(Kohanic) name KATZ. Certain areas of Yugoslavia (e.g. Trieste) were
Italian-speaking. I am not sure whether the Italian author A. Gatti, who
wrote "Ilia ed Alberto" (1931) was Jewish.

On the other hand GATTIN may be a variant of GOIETIN, the name of a famous
Hungarian family of rabbis, orientalists and experts on Arab and on French
literature and history.

Michael Bernet, New York

WOLFF (Pfungstadt, Frankfurt/M, Koenigsberg, Amsterdam, N.Carolina); BERNET,
BERNERT, JONDORF(Frensdorf, Bamberg, Nurnberg); FEUCHTWANGER
(Schwabach, Hagenbach & Fuerth); KONIGSHOFER (anywhere); BERG, WOLF(F),
(Demmelsdorf & Zeckendorf); Shim`on GUTENSTEIN (Bad Homburg ca 1760);
FRENSDORF/ER (anywhere); MAINZER (Lorsch); anyone in Ermreuth or Floss;
GOLDSCHMIDT (B. Homburg, Hessdorf). ALTMANN (Silesia); TIMMENDORFER


Re: Need help with profession @ names... #general

Ida & Joseph Schwarcz <idayosef@...>
 

Yachet may be Yokheved originally although some say Yehudit. I had a friend
in Pittsburgh named Henrietta whose Jewish name was Yachet. Yetti is often
a nickname for Yenta.

Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Arad, Israel

ldashman@bestweb.net [mailto:ldashman@bestweb.net] wrote:

<< The secular name of my grandmother's younger sister, born in Ulanow,
Poland (Galicia), was Chane Jachet. Her diminuitive name was Yetti, and
more formally (in the US) as Henrietta. >>

Lisa Dashman
ldashman@bestweb.net


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen FW: GATTIN - possible origin #general

Harry Schlanger <hps@...>
 

Thanks Michael,
I read the name >from a German birth certificate for Alfred SCHLANGER. It
states:

...des Herrn Leopold Schlanger und dessen Gattin Rifka, Ascher /:Alfred:/
Schlanger

If "Gattin" means spouse in German, it's obvious the remainder Rifka, Asher
must be the name. However, now I am not sure if Rifka or Asher is the
family name, or if both are first names. Any suggestions?

Harry Schlanger




MBernet@aol.com [mailto:MBernet@aol.com]wrote:

In a message dated 1/13/01 10:51:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hps@elite.net.au writes:

<< Appreciate any leads on the Schlanger family:

Leopold SCHLANGER

b. Ujvidek, Hungry 1863 (Ujvidek renamed Novid Sad, Yugoslavia) d. Wein,
Austria 04/04/1919
married Rifka Ascher Gattin
Any leads on ancestors of Leopold, siblings would be welcome

Rifka Ascher GATTIN

Caution: The word Gattin is German for wife/spouse.

It is not impossible that someone somwhere mistook the word Gattin as a
woman's maiden name, and that it was subsequently handed down the
bureaucracy ladder.

In Romance languages (and both Romanian and Italian are Romance langueges)
Gattti, Gatto etc means "cat" and it could be a form for the common Jewish
(Kohanic) name KATZ. Certain areas of Yugoslavia (e.g. Trieste) were
Italian-speaking. I am not sure whether the Italian author A. Gatti, who
wrote "Ilia ed Alberto" (1931) was Jewish.

On the other hand GATTIN may be a variant of GOIETIN, the name of a famous
Hungarian family of rabbis, orientalists and experts on Arab and on French
literature and history.

Michael Bernet, New York

WOLFF (Pfungstadt, Frankfurt/M, Koenigsberg, Amsterdam, N.Carolina); BERNET,
BERNERT, JONDORF(Frensdorf, Bamberg, Nurnberg); FEUCHTWANGER
(Schwabach, Hagenbach & Fuerth); KONIGSHOFER (anywhere); BERG, WOLF(F),
(Demmelsdorf & Zeckendorf); Shim`on GUTENSTEIN (Bad Homburg ca 1760);
FRENSDORF/ER (anywhere); MAINZER (Lorsch); anyone in Ermreuth or Floss;
GOLDSCHMIDT (B. Homburg, Hessdorf). ALTMANN (Silesia); TIMMENDORFER


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen RE: Need help with profession @ names... #general

Ida & Joseph Schwarcz <idayosef@...>
 

Yachet may be Yokheved originally although some say Yehudit. I had a friend
in Pittsburgh named Henrietta whose Jewish name was Yachet. Yetti is often
a nickname for Yenta.

Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Arad, Israel

ldashman@bestweb.net [mailto:ldashman@bestweb.net] wrote:

<< The secular name of my grandmother's younger sister, born in Ulanow,
Poland (Galicia), was Chane Jachet. Her diminuitive name was Yetti, and
more formally (in the US) as Henrietta. >>

Lisa Dashman
ldashman@bestweb.net


Re: Jews in Eastern Galicia before the outbreak of WWII - review of stastistical data #galicia

Alexander Sharon <a.sharon@...>
 

Peter,

Thank you kindly for your response. My comments are in the body of the text.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Jassem" <jassep@tdbank.ca>

Alexander Sharon wrote on the Statistical Data in Galicia on Jan. 8, 2001.
Here is my response.

Dear Alex, I admire your passion for research and for sharing your findings
with all of us. Your text is very informative and valuable. But since you
encourage us "to engage you into discussion concerning number of Jews in
Galicia before the outbreak of WWII" I will make few comments.

You wrote:
I would be surprised if data published by Polish statisticians for years
1921 and 1931 was not politically manipulated by the authorities. Poland has
acquired Eastern Galicia (and part of Vilna, Lithuania territory)
as the result of the military aggression against weaker neighbors. Poles
substituted for minorities in some of those territories.<

All scholarly works rely on these statistics. I have consulted a University
of Toronto professor specializing in Jewish studies and he confirmed that
the statistics could be trusted.
________________________________________
AS.
My interoperation of the available statistics is a bit different.
If statistics show that Jewish population of eg. Lwow Province has been
identified as 7% Jews by the nationality and 11.5% by Mosaic religion, I
begin to wonder. What means not identified term "nationality", since all
Jews were Polish citizens. Were 4.5% of the Jewish population allocated?
_____________________________________________________________________
PS
Also, I would not fully agree with the
statement that "Poland has acquired Eastern Galicia as the result of the
military aggression against weaker neighbors." I'd rather say that Poland
used military means to restore its legitimate multi-ethnic country
established as a voluntary union on July 1, 1569. Subsequently the country
was taken apart following thre partitions by Russia, Prussia and Austria in
1772, 1793 and 1795.
__________________________________________________
AS
This is a historical misconception. Unified new country was known as Union
of Two Nations or the Commonwealth of the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand
Duchy of Lithuania (Rzeczypospolita Obojga Narodow), and it was not just the
Catholic Poland.

Leaders of the Commonwealth refused to recognized political aspiration of
the emerging Third Nation - the Ukraine as an equal Partner. This
shortsightedness led to the bloody Chmielnicki revolt in 1648 (known as
Catastrophe in the Jewish history), the subsequent unification of the
Ukraine and Muscovy, and follow up division of the Commonwealth.
_____________________________________________________
PS
In the meantime the Ukrainian national consciousnes
had strenghtened and the 1918 efforts of Marshall Pilsudski to restore the
country were opposed by (perhaps most of) the ethnic Ukrainians. While you
may be right that "Poles substituted for minorities in some of those
territories" it has to be noted that in some other areas, notably the city
of Lwów and Lwów area, the Poles were in clear majority. Pilsudski had a
vision of multi-ethnic, large and strong Poland, which would withstand
aggressive tendencies of her neighbours. Unfortunately subsequent
goverments failed to implement fair ethnic policies or make the country a
leading military power.
_______________________________________________________________
AS
Poland was reestablished in 1918 following Versailles Treaty (Peace
Conference). Of the all beneficiaries of Versailles, Poland was the
greediest and the most bellicious. Poland emerged in 1921, after three years
of fighting, twice as big as had been expected at the Peace Conference.. She
attacked the Ukrainians, getting >from them eastern Gailcia and their capital
Lwow. She fought the Czechs for Teschen (Cieszyn) and failed to get it, one
reason that Poland had no sympathy with Czechs in 1938, though it was in her
long-term interest to side with Czech independence.

Poland made good "her' rights against Germans by force, in both the Baltic
and Silesia.

Poland invaded newly free Lithuania (the old Partner >from Commonwealth),
occupying Lithuanian capital Wilno and incorporating it after 'plebiscite'.

She waged a full scale war against Russia and persuaded Western powers to
ratify her new frontiers in 1923. In expanding by force Poland skillfully
played on Britain's fears of Bolshevism and France's desire to have a
powerful ally in the east.

At Versailles Poland was obliged to sign a special treaty guaranteeing
rights to her minorities (Jews, Ukrainians, Belarussian, Lithuanian and
Germans). But she did not keep even in the 20ies, still less in 30ies when
her minorities policy deteriorated under the military leadership.

With a third of her population treated as virtual aliens, she maintained an
enormous police force and army. Poland has established its own concentration
camp for the undesirables at Bereza Kartuska.
___________________________________________________________________________
PJ
You Wrote:
It is obvious that Jews that did not declare their mother tongue as
Hebrew/Yiddish were categorized as Poles by nationality. Population of Jews
in Eastern Galicia and subsequently in all prewar Poland in my opinion,
should be larger that quoted by sources as 10% of the total population of
Poland. This would also increase the number of Holocaust victims.<

I don't have the censuses at hand. I will have proper resources soon and
may comment further, but at this point I have two comments.
1. There were two censuses: 1921 and 1931. Each asked different questions.
One asked about religious and ethnic affiliation and the other about
religious affiliation and primary language or mother tongue. I am not sure
which was which but the language one resulted in 300,000 difference between
Yiddish/Hebrew speakers and Mosaic faith followers. It should be also noted
that practically nobody spoke Hebrew. The Hebrew numbers were inflated and
statements were ideologically motivated. But since the numbers were
combined with Yiddish it had no influence on final results.
______________________________________________________________
AS

You have said: "It should be also noted that practically nobody spoke
Hebrew"

Educational Zionist system in Poland secular in orientation, known as
"Tarbut" had 44, 550 (20 % of all Jewish pupils in Jewish schools in Poland)
students on kindergarden, elementary, secondary and vocational levels where
instructions language was exclusively in Hebrew.

Secular Hebrew schools were developed, examples are the Heder Metukkan
(improved kheyder) was informed by new pedagogical ideas: "Hebrew taught in
Hebrew" - this idea was fully incorporated in modern Israeli 'ulpans'
intended for the new immigrants.

Separate educational systes: Shulkul (Shul und kultur farband) Jewish
Secondary School Federation were established with the assistance of Labour
Zionist organization, and Hebrew alongside Yiddish were languages of
instruction, in addition to Polish.

In additional there were private Hebrew Gimnaziums and/or Liceum in nearly
all major Polish cities

(refer to Zineman 1938, Chmielewski 1937 and Maursberg 1968 sources).

My Dad spoke with his first wife, his brothers and all cousins in Hebrew,
they wrote letters in Hebrew. And they all have been educated in Hebrew
schools.

from the all Eastern Europe, Zionist movement was established first in
Galicia, and only later in the Pale Settlement and Congress Poland. All
Zionist parties: General Zionists, Mizrachi, Poale Zion (Labour) and
Jabotinsky's Revisionists had numerous followers who promoted Hebrew.
Kibbutzim were established in Poland preparing youth for the immigration to
Palestine. Members of Kvutzot communicated exclusively in Hebrew.

And how can you claim that Hebrew was not spoken in Poland?
____________________________________________

PJ
2. Again, I believe there is no reason to distrust the 10% count of Jews in
Poland.
You wrote:
1931 statistics display that in Galicia amount of Jews that declared their
mother tongue as Yiddish or Hebrew was smaller than in other Provinces.<

True, except you shouldn't have included Krakow City and Krakow Province in
the non-Galician column of statistics in this paragraph.
___________________________________________________________

AS

Please pay attention, that I have been dealing with the issue of the "Jews
in EASTERN Galicia...", please refer to the subject line above. Krakow was
shown separately for the comparison reasons only
__________________________________________________
I'll be happy to send more comments when I get to the proper resources in
several days.

Thanks,

Peter
_________________________________________________________________

Your additional comments will be appreciated.

Regards,

Alex
--
Alexander Sharon
Calgary, Alberta


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Re: Jews in Eastern Galicia before the outbreak of WWII - review of stastistical data #galicia

Alexander Sharon <a.sharon@...>
 

Peter,

Thank you kindly for your response. My comments are in the body of the text.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Jassem" <jassep@tdbank.ca>

Alexander Sharon wrote on the Statistical Data in Galicia on Jan. 8, 2001.
Here is my response.

Dear Alex, I admire your passion for research and for sharing your findings
with all of us. Your text is very informative and valuable. But since you
encourage us "to engage you into discussion concerning number of Jews in
Galicia before the outbreak of WWII" I will make few comments.

You wrote:
I would be surprised if data published by Polish statisticians for years
1921 and 1931 was not politically manipulated by the authorities. Poland has
acquired Eastern Galicia (and part of Vilna, Lithuania territory)
as the result of the military aggression against weaker neighbors. Poles
substituted for minorities in some of those territories.<

All scholarly works rely on these statistics. I have consulted a University
of Toronto professor specializing in Jewish studies and he confirmed that
the statistics could be trusted.
________________________________________
AS.
My interoperation of the available statistics is a bit different.
If statistics show that Jewish population of eg. Lwow Province has been
identified as 7% Jews by the nationality and 11.5% by Mosaic religion, I
begin to wonder. What means not identified term "nationality", since all
Jews were Polish citizens. Were 4.5% of the Jewish population allocated?
_____________________________________________________________________
PS
Also, I would not fully agree with the
statement that "Poland has acquired Eastern Galicia as the result of the
military aggression against weaker neighbors." I'd rather say that Poland
used military means to restore its legitimate multi-ethnic country
established as a voluntary union on July 1, 1569. Subsequently the country
was taken apart following thre partitions by Russia, Prussia and Austria in
1772, 1793 and 1795.
__________________________________________________
AS
This is a historical misconception. Unified new country was known as Union
of Two Nations or the Commonwealth of the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand
Duchy of Lithuania (Rzeczypospolita Obojga Narodow), and it was not just the
Catholic Poland.

Leaders of the Commonwealth refused to recognized political aspiration of
the emerging Third Nation - the Ukraine as an equal Partner. This
shortsightedness led to the bloody Chmielnicki revolt in 1648 (known as
Catastrophe in the Jewish history), the subsequent unification of the
Ukraine and Muscovy, and follow up division of the Commonwealth.
_____________________________________________________
PS
In the meantime the Ukrainian national consciousnes
had strenghtened and the 1918 efforts of Marshall Pilsudski to restore the
country were opposed by (perhaps most of) the ethnic Ukrainians. While you
may be right that "Poles substituted for minorities in some of those
territories" it has to be noted that in some other areas, notably the city
of Lwów and Lwów area, the Poles were in clear majority. Pilsudski had a
vision of multi-ethnic, large and strong Poland, which would withstand
aggressive tendencies of her neighbours. Unfortunately subsequent
goverments failed to implement fair ethnic policies or make the country a
leading military power.
_______________________________________________________________
AS
Poland was reestablished in 1918 following Versailles Treaty (Peace
Conference). Of the all beneficiaries of Versailles, Poland was the
greediest and the most bellicious. Poland emerged in 1921, after three years
of fighting, twice as big as had been expected at the Peace Conference.. She
attacked the Ukrainians, getting >from them eastern Gailcia and their capital
Lwow. She fought the Czechs for Teschen (Cieszyn) and failed to get it, one
reason that Poland had no sympathy with Czechs in 1938, though it was in her
long-term interest to side with Czech independence.

Poland made good "her' rights against Germans by force, in both the Baltic
and Silesia.

Poland invaded newly free Lithuania (the old Partner >from Commonwealth),
occupying Lithuanian capital Wilno and incorporating it after 'plebiscite'.

She waged a full scale war against Russia and persuaded Western powers to
ratify her new frontiers in 1923. In expanding by force Poland skillfully
played on Britain's fears of Bolshevism and France's desire to have a
powerful ally in the east.

At Versailles Poland was obliged to sign a special treaty guaranteeing
rights to her minorities (Jews, Ukrainians, Belarussian, Lithuanian and
Germans). But she did not keep even in the 20ies, still less in 30ies when
her minorities policy deteriorated under the military leadership.

With a third of her population treated as virtual aliens, she maintained an
enormous police force and army. Poland has established its own concentration
camp for the undesirables at Bereza Kartuska.
___________________________________________________________________________
PJ
You Wrote:
It is obvious that Jews that did not declare their mother tongue as
Hebrew/Yiddish were categorized as Poles by nationality. Population of Jews
in Eastern Galicia and subsequently in all prewar Poland in my opinion,
should be larger that quoted by sources as 10% of the total population of
Poland. This would also increase the number of Holocaust victims.<

I don't have the censuses at hand. I will have proper resources soon and
may comment further, but at this point I have two comments.
1. There were two censuses: 1921 and 1931. Each asked different questions.
One asked about religious and ethnic affiliation and the other about
religious affiliation and primary language or mother tongue. I am not sure
which was which but the language one resulted in 300,000 difference between
Yiddish/Hebrew speakers and Mosaic faith followers. It should be also noted
that practically nobody spoke Hebrew. The Hebrew numbers were inflated and
statements were ideologically motivated. But since the numbers were
combined with Yiddish it had no influence on final results.
______________________________________________________________
AS

You have said: "It should be also noted that practically nobody spoke
Hebrew"

Educational Zionist system in Poland secular in orientation, known as
"Tarbut" had 44, 550 (20 % of all Jewish pupils in Jewish schools in Poland)
students on kindergarden, elementary, secondary and vocational levels where
instructions language was exclusively in Hebrew.

Secular Hebrew schools were developed, examples are the Heder Metukkan
(improved kheyder) was informed by new pedagogical ideas: "Hebrew taught in
Hebrew" - this idea was fully incorporated in modern Israeli 'ulpans'
intended for the new immigrants.

Separate educational systes: Shulkul (Shul und kultur farband) Jewish
Secondary School Federation were established with the assistance of Labour
Zionist organization, and Hebrew alongside Yiddish were languages of
instruction, in addition to Polish.

In additional there were private Hebrew Gimnaziums and/or Liceum in nearly
all major Polish cities

(refer to Zineman 1938, Chmielewski 1937 and Maursberg 1968 sources).

My Dad spoke with his first wife, his brothers and all cousins in Hebrew,
they wrote letters in Hebrew. And they all have been educated in Hebrew
schools.

from the all Eastern Europe, Zionist movement was established first in
Galicia, and only later in the Pale Settlement and Congress Poland. All
Zionist parties: General Zionists, Mizrachi, Poale Zion (Labour) and
Jabotinsky's Revisionists had numerous followers who promoted Hebrew.
Kibbutzim were established in Poland preparing youth for the immigration to
Palestine. Members of Kvutzot communicated exclusively in Hebrew.

And how can you claim that Hebrew was not spoken in Poland?
____________________________________________

PJ
2. Again, I believe there is no reason to distrust the 10% count of Jews in
Poland.
You wrote:
1931 statistics display that in Galicia amount of Jews that declared their
mother tongue as Yiddish or Hebrew was smaller than in other Provinces.<

True, except you shouldn't have included Krakow City and Krakow Province in
the non-Galician column of statistics in this paragraph.
___________________________________________________________

AS

Please pay attention, that I have been dealing with the issue of the "Jews
in EASTERN Galicia...", please refer to the subject line above. Krakow was
shown separately for the comparison reasons only
__________________________________________________
I'll be happy to send more comments when I get to the proper resources in
several days.

Thanks,

Peter
_________________________________________________________________

Your additional comments will be appreciated.

Regards,

Alex
--
Alexander Sharon
Calgary, Alberta