Date   

Re: especially long matching DNA segment #dna

Arline and Sidney Sachs
 

Re: especially long matching DNA segment

I was asked “why the likelihood of matching DNA would be 75% between
sisters and not 50%?”. The reason is on each chromosome pair, everyone
get one of the pair >from their mother and the other >from their father.
There is only a 50% chance of the same DNA to be pass to both children
from one parent. If they get differ DNA >from one, they could get matching
DNA >from the other parent. Therefore it another 25% match (half of 50%).
This does produce an error for some people when using DNA matches to find
their most recent common ancestor (MRCA) >from their trees and then
thinking that their matching DNA came >from the person listed on both
trees. This is only right about half the time because it have an equal
chance that the DNA came >from the partner of the MRCA. It will take at
least three people to find >from which partner the common DNA came from,
but it is usually many more.

Another common error which I made using DNA results was the numbers of
years per generation. When working with Y-DNA, I was using the average
number for everyone and not by males alone. Since males are on average
about 10 years older then their mates, using the wrong number cause an
underestimated for when a mutations on the Y-DNA took place.

Sidney Sachs
Lorton, VA


DNA Research #DNA Re: especially long matching DNA segment #dna

Arline and Sidney Sachs
 

Re: especially long matching DNA segment

I was asked “why the likelihood of matching DNA would be 75% between
sisters and not 50%?”. The reason is on each chromosome pair, everyone
get one of the pair >from their mother and the other >from their father.
There is only a 50% chance of the same DNA to be pass to both children
from one parent. If they get differ DNA >from one, they could get matching
DNA >from the other parent. Therefore it another 25% match (half of 50%).
This does produce an error for some people when using DNA matches to find
their most recent common ancestor (MRCA) >from their trees and then
thinking that their matching DNA came >from the person listed on both
trees. This is only right about half the time because it have an equal
chance that the DNA came >from the partner of the MRCA. It will take at
least three people to find >from which partner the common DNA came from,
but it is usually many more.

Another common error which I made using DNA results was the numbers of
years per generation. When working with Y-DNA, I was using the average
number for everyone and not by males alone. Since males are on average
about 10 years older then their mates, using the wrong number cause an
underestimated for when a mutations on the Y-DNA took place.

Sidney Sachs
Lorton, VA


Searching for Family Roots - Chawe FLAMM nee WOLFSTHAL #germany

Yaron Wolfsthal
 

Dear Colleagues,
I am researching family roots, specifically focusing on Chawe FLAMM
nee WOLFSTHAL who was burn in Husiatyn, Galicia (August 16, 1867),
moved to Germany at some point, and was buried in Frankfurt (March 11,
1930).

My specific challenge is in obtaining the names of Chawe's *mother*
and *father*. This info is key for my research.

Chawe was married to Jacob FLAMM. I have her marriage and death
records, but the parent names are not written in either of those.

In the diary of her late grandson, he mentions her grave in
Frankfurt's "Old Jewish Cemetery", "located about a mile >from the new
Cemetery that was opened in early 30s".

I would like to ask this group for help. Specifically,
(1) Any idea if and where I can find specific information about Chawe's parents?
(2) Any idea if and how I can find this specific old Jewish cemetery
in Frankfurt, and the specific tombstone? Or a contact point?

Thank you,
Prof. Yaron Wolfsthal, Israel Yaron.wolfsthal@gmail


German SIG #Germany Searching for Family Roots - Chawe FLAMM nee WOLFSTHAL #germany

Yaron Wolfsthal
 

Dear Colleagues,
I am researching family roots, specifically focusing on Chawe FLAMM
nee WOLFSTHAL who was burn in Husiatyn, Galicia (August 16, 1867),
moved to Germany at some point, and was buried in Frankfurt (March 11,
1930).

My specific challenge is in obtaining the names of Chawe's *mother*
and *father*. This info is key for my research.

Chawe was married to Jacob FLAMM. I have her marriage and death
records, but the parent names are not written in either of those.

In the diary of her late grandson, he mentions her grave in
Frankfurt's "Old Jewish Cemetery", "located about a mile >from the new
Cemetery that was opened in early 30s".

I would like to ask this group for help. Specifically,
(1) Any idea if and where I can find specific information about Chawe's parents?
(2) Any idea if and how I can find this specific old Jewish cemetery
in Frankfurt, and the specific tombstone? Or a contact point?

Thank you,
Prof. Yaron Wolfsthal, Israel Yaron.wolfsthal@gmail


April Meeting of JGSGP #general

Marilyn Golden <mazergoldenjgsgp@...>
 

Jewish Genealogical Society of Greater Philadelphia
Date: Sunday, April 14, 2019
Time: 1:30
Place: Congregation Rodeph Shalom
615 North Broad Street
Philadelphia PA 19123
*Note that this meeting starts later than our usual time of 1:00.
There is **Secured Free Parking**

Speaker: Dan Oren, author of The Wedding Photo
Program: The Wedding Photo: When a genealogical tree bears fruit!

A visit to an abandoned Polish Jewish cemetery in 1993 launches a
20-year search to solve the mystery of "Who is Buried in Sarah's
Tomb?" A visit with a cousin unearths a breathtaking photo of a Berlin
family wedding >from 1926 and leads to discovering their unimaginable
post-wedding history. An archivist in Prague discovers an unknown
uncle whose life takes the reader >from the Metropolitan Museum of Art
in New York to the Vatican. A memoir by Philip Roth shocks a daughter
into unlocking a father's concealed past. In The Wedding Photo Dan
Oren shares inspiring stories and techniques of how the pursuit of
genealogy opens new worlds.

Autographed copies of this book will be for sale after Dan's talk. The
price for the book at the meeting will be $32 (cheaper than Amazon or
ordering direct >from the publisher), payable in cash or by credit card
or by cell phone direct payment.
Visitors are welcome $5@

JGSGP website www.jgsgp.org is now available with the latest news,
upcoming meeting notices, and links to Philadelphia resources. We can
also be found on Facebook. Please note that we also have a speakers
Bureau which is available to local groups on the various subjects
concerning genealogy.

Marilyn Golden


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen April Meeting of JGSGP #general

Marilyn Golden <mazergoldenjgsgp@...>
 

Jewish Genealogical Society of Greater Philadelphia
Date: Sunday, April 14, 2019
Time: 1:30
Place: Congregation Rodeph Shalom
615 North Broad Street
Philadelphia PA 19123
*Note that this meeting starts later than our usual time of 1:00.
There is **Secured Free Parking**

Speaker: Dan Oren, author of The Wedding Photo
Program: The Wedding Photo: When a genealogical tree bears fruit!

A visit to an abandoned Polish Jewish cemetery in 1993 launches a
20-year search to solve the mystery of "Who is Buried in Sarah's
Tomb?" A visit with a cousin unearths a breathtaking photo of a Berlin
family wedding >from 1926 and leads to discovering their unimaginable
post-wedding history. An archivist in Prague discovers an unknown
uncle whose life takes the reader >from the Metropolitan Museum of Art
in New York to the Vatican. A memoir by Philip Roth shocks a daughter
into unlocking a father's concealed past. In The Wedding Photo Dan
Oren shares inspiring stories and techniques of how the pursuit of
genealogy opens new worlds.

Autographed copies of this book will be for sale after Dan's talk. The
price for the book at the meeting will be $32 (cheaper than Amazon or
ordering direct >from the publisher), payable in cash or by credit card
or by cell phone direct payment.
Visitors are welcome $5@

JGSGP website www.jgsgp.org is now available with the latest news,
upcoming meeting notices, and links to Philadelphia resources. We can
also be found on Facebook. Please note that we also have a speakers
Bureau which is available to local groups on the various subjects
concerning genealogy.

Marilyn Golden


IAJGS speakers #austria-czech

E. Randol Schoenberg
 

Please e-mail me, @randols, if you were accepted as a speaker
on Austria-Czech topics for the IAJGS conference in Cleveland.

Randy Schoenberg
Austria-Czech SIG Coordinator


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech IAJGS speakers #austria-czech

E. Randol Schoenberg
 

Please e-mail me, @randols, if you were accepted as a speaker
on Austria-Czech topics for the IAJGS conference in Cleveland.

Randy Schoenberg
Austria-Czech SIG Coordinator


Great Temple synagogue in Deva, Romania rededicated after 2-year restoration #romania

Diane Bark
 

Greetings ROM-SIG members -

You can read about the Deva synagogue's rededication here:

https://jewish-heritage-europe.eu/2019/04/05/romania-synagogue-in-deva-rededicated-after-restoration/


Diane Bark


Romania SIG #Romania Great Temple synagogue in Deva, Romania rededicated after 2-year restoration #romania

Diane Bark
 

Greetings ROM-SIG members -

You can read about the Deva synagogue's rededication here:

https://jewish-heritage-europe.eu/2019/04/05/romania-synagogue-in-deva-rededicated-after-restoration/


Diane Bark


New data set on the LitvakSIG Collective Data site #lithuania

Russ Maurer
 

LitvakSIG is pleased to inaugurate an important new data set on the
Collective Data portion of our website, litvakSIG.org: the Obeliai
questionnaires. This data set will be of potential relevance to anyone
with ancestors >from Kovno gubernia (Kaunas, Panevezys, Raseiniai,
Siauliai, Telsiai, Ukmerge, Zarasai districts) as well as Suwalki
gubernia and Trakai district.

Here is some brief background. Because Jews, as a group, were falsely
suspected of disloyalty to the Russian Empire, they were hastily
thrown out of western Kovno gubernia in May of 1915 as WWI came to
Lithuania and the Germans attacked >from East Prussia. Most were sent
to interior Russia. After the war, tens of thousands of the surviving
displaced Lithuanian Jews tried to return to Lithuania, almost all of
them passing through the frontier quarantine station in the tiny town
of Obeliai. This was, for all practical purposes, the only route back
from Russia. In Obeliai, each returnee (or family head) filled out a
questionnaire indicating where they intended to go if readmitted to
Lithuania and including significant personal details about each family
member such as the date and place of birth, maiden name, father's
name, etc. Many of these questionnaires have been preserved in the
LCVA.

The first installment of the Obeliai questionnaires can be found in
the "LCVA files" section of the Collective Data site.

A qualified donor to any of our district/gubernia research groups
automatically has access to the collective data site. If you are not a
qualified donor and would like to become one, you can do so online at
https://www.litvaksig.org/membership-and-contributions/join-and-contribute/.
A donation of $100 to any of our research groups will do the trick.

After about 18 months, these records will be added to the free,
searchable, All-Lithuania database.

Check it out!

Russ Maurer
Records Acquisition & Translation coordinator, LitvakSIG


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania New data set on the LitvakSIG Collective Data site #lithuania

Russ Maurer
 

LitvakSIG is pleased to inaugurate an important new data set on the
Collective Data portion of our website, litvakSIG.org: the Obeliai
questionnaires. This data set will be of potential relevance to anyone
with ancestors >from Kovno gubernia (Kaunas, Panevezys, Raseiniai,
Siauliai, Telsiai, Ukmerge, Zarasai districts) as well as Suwalki
gubernia and Trakai district.

Here is some brief background. Because Jews, as a group, were falsely
suspected of disloyalty to the Russian Empire, they were hastily
thrown out of western Kovno gubernia in May of 1915 as WWI came to
Lithuania and the Germans attacked >from East Prussia. Most were sent
to interior Russia. After the war, tens of thousands of the surviving
displaced Lithuanian Jews tried to return to Lithuania, almost all of
them passing through the frontier quarantine station in the tiny town
of Obeliai. This was, for all practical purposes, the only route back
from Russia. In Obeliai, each returnee (or family head) filled out a
questionnaire indicating where they intended to go if readmitted to
Lithuania and including significant personal details about each family
member such as the date and place of birth, maiden name, father's
name, etc. Many of these questionnaires have been preserved in the
LCVA.

The first installment of the Obeliai questionnaires can be found in
the "LCVA files" section of the Collective Data site.

A qualified donor to any of our district/gubernia research groups
automatically has access to the collective data site. If you are not a
qualified donor and would like to become one, you can do so online at
https://www.litvaksig.org/membership-and-contributions/join-and-contribute/.
A donation of $100 to any of our research groups will do the trick.

After about 18 months, these records will be added to the free,
searchable, All-Lithuania database.

Check it out!

Russ Maurer
Records Acquisition & Translation coordinator, LitvakSIG


Csenstochow and Lodsz #poland

Norbert Steiner
 

Sorry if I misspelled the towns.

My parents went through the Lodz Ghetto and the ammunition factory in
Csenstochow. Some of my mothers siblings lived in Lodz before the
Holocaust. How would I look for them in recovered records?

May you meet your responsibilities
With love, insight, and creativity

Norbert Natan S.


JRI Poland #Poland Csenstochow and Lodsz #poland

Norbert Steiner
 

Sorry if I misspelled the towns.

My parents went through the Lodz Ghetto and the ammunition factory in
Csenstochow. Some of my mothers siblings lived in Lodz before the
Holocaust. How would I look for them in recovered records?

May you meet your responsibilities
With love, insight, and creativity

Norbert Natan S.


Re: especially long matching DNA segment #dna

Arline and Sidney Sachs
 

Marilyn Gelber asked what the chances of getting a matching segment of
105.5 cM with a second cousin. I estimated it is about 1% of the time.
My logic which is not simple:

Only half of the parent DNA is pass to each of the children. Between
sisters, they is a 75% chance that they get the matching DNA >from one or
both of their common parents. Then >from each grandparent, we will get on
average 25% of their DNA. Therefore second cousins should have around
4.7% (.75*.25*.25) on average common DNA. That means that second cousins
on average should share 159 cM (3400 * .047) of DNA. That DNA is not
random over the 22 chromosomes that are passed to the next generation. On
each chromosomes, segment of DNA are copy >from one parent for awhile and
then switch to the other parent. The point that this occurred is call a
crossover point. On average with each passing >from parent to child, there
are on average around 34 crossovers randomly over all of the DNA.
Therefore in three generations there are around 102 (34 * 3) crossovers.
Adding the 22 chromosomes, >from a parent we will have on average 124
segments >from the great-grandparents. This average about 15.5 (124 / 8)
segments for each with an average length about 27 cM (3400/124). This is
about one quarter the length of Marilyn Gelber longest segment with her
second cousin. Using Poisson, the chances of getting a segment four time
the average is about 1.5% of the time. Times this percentage by the
numbers of segments (124) times the percentage of common DNA (.047), on
average second cousins will have a common segments length of this length
about 1% of the time.

Sidney Sachs
Lorton, VA


DNA Research #DNA Re: especially long matching DNA segment #dna

Arline and Sidney Sachs
 

Marilyn Gelber asked what the chances of getting a matching segment of
105.5 cM with a second cousin. I estimated it is about 1% of the time.
My logic which is not simple:

Only half of the parent DNA is pass to each of the children. Between
sisters, they is a 75% chance that they get the matching DNA >from one or
both of their common parents. Then >from each grandparent, we will get on
average 25% of their DNA. Therefore second cousins should have around
4.7% (.75*.25*.25) on average common DNA. That means that second cousins
on average should share 159 cM (3400 * .047) of DNA. That DNA is not
random over the 22 chromosomes that are passed to the next generation. On
each chromosomes, segment of DNA are copy >from one parent for awhile and
then switch to the other parent. The point that this occurred is call a
crossover point. On average with each passing >from parent to child, there
are on average around 34 crossovers randomly over all of the DNA.
Therefore in three generations there are around 102 (34 * 3) crossovers.
Adding the 22 chromosomes, >from a parent we will have on average 124
segments >from the great-grandparents. This average about 15.5 (124 / 8)
segments for each with an average length about 27 cM (3400/124). This is
about one quarter the length of Marilyn Gelber longest segment with her
second cousin. Using Poisson, the chances of getting a segment four time
the average is about 1.5% of the time. Times this percentage by the
numbers of segments (124) times the percentage of common DNA (.047), on
average second cousins will have a common segments length of this length
about 1% of the time.

Sidney Sachs
Lorton, VA


Re: Dorna Vatra #romania

Monica Friedlander <monifriedlander@...>
 

Neither do I mean to stir any controversy. Mine was not intended as a
scholarly comment, only linguistic. No doubt you know far more about the
history of the place, and I appreciate that. My point was that we need to
call it by the real name, which everyone everyone knows it by (Vatra Dornei).
If you google Dorna today, you won't get any hits because Dorna is a hotel,
not a place. Dornei, in Romanian, means "of the Dorna." You can't simply
invert the two words without changing the entire meaning in the Romanian
language. "Dorna Watra" means nothing in Romanian, nor in any language. It's a
German transliteration of a Romanian name. The Romanian language doesn't even
include the letter W. The word "vatra" (not watra) means hearth, or fireplace.
So in Romanian the name means "hearth of the Dorna." In German it means
nothing. To be clear, I have zero scholarly credentials. But I grew up in
Bucharest and Romanian is my native language. (I also speak German.)

Monica Friedlander

On Apr 3, 2019, at 5:49 AM, paul David guth pdguth@... <rom-sig@...> wrote:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not wanting to start a controversy, I must point out that Vatra Dornei
is not the name used in the records and histories of the town.
The Austrian name was Dorna-Watra, and I cite the Bukovina birth
records in the JewishGen databases as well as Scholarly works,
such as "History of the Jews in the Bukovina" edited Dr. Hugo Gold
and written by Prof. Dr. H. Sternberg.

Paul Guth

On Apr 3, 2019, Monica Friedlander wrote:

Hope you don't mind me chiming in, but the town is Vatra Dornei.
The river is Dorna, but the city is Vatra Dornei ("of the Dorna").
It might create confusion in searches.


Romania SIG #Romania Re: Dorna Vatra #romania

Monica Friedlander <monifriedlander@...>
 

Neither do I mean to stir any controversy. Mine was not intended as a
scholarly comment, only linguistic. No doubt you know far more about the
history of the place, and I appreciate that. My point was that we need to
call it by the real name, which everyone everyone knows it by (Vatra Dornei).
If you google Dorna today, you won't get any hits because Dorna is a hotel,
not a place. Dornei, in Romanian, means "of the Dorna." You can't simply
invert the two words without changing the entire meaning in the Romanian
language. "Dorna Watra" means nothing in Romanian, nor in any language. It's a
German transliteration of a Romanian name. The Romanian language doesn't even
include the letter W. The word "vatra" (not watra) means hearth, or fireplace.
So in Romanian the name means "hearth of the Dorna." In German it means
nothing. To be clear, I have zero scholarly credentials. But I grew up in
Bucharest and Romanian is my native language. (I also speak German.)

Monica Friedlander

On Apr 3, 2019, at 5:49 AM, paul David guth pdguth@... <rom-sig@...> wrote:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not wanting to start a controversy, I must point out that Vatra Dornei
is not the name used in the records and histories of the town.
The Austrian name was Dorna-Watra, and I cite the Bukovina birth
records in the JewishGen databases as well as Scholarly works,
such as "History of the Jews in the Bukovina" edited Dr. Hugo Gold
and written by Prof. Dr. H. Sternberg.

Paul Guth

On Apr 3, 2019, Monica Friedlander wrote:

Hope you don't mind me chiming in, but the town is Vatra Dornei.
The river is Dorna, but the city is Vatra Dornei ("of the Dorna").
It might create confusion in searches.


chance of a longest segment being 106.5 cM for a second cousin #dna

Herbert Lazerow
 

I cannot answer either of your questions; perhaps a professional
statistician could.
It seems to me that the 106.5 is more in the range of first
cousins. My two first cousins on MyHeritage and I share longest
segments of 82 and 115 cMs, but the total shared in both cases is
almost 900cMs. On Family Tree DNA, the same two first cousins measure
in slightly lower: 866/61 and 835/108. A third first cousin claims
1108/114.
As for second cousins on MyHeritage, they range >from 291/75 to
240/43 [259/40 on FamilyTreeDNA], to 200/21. Second cousins on
FamilyTreeDNA are at 259/40, 234/27 and 194/25.
I conclude that those six recombinations provide much room for
variation, but even granting that, I suspect that 106.5 cMs as a
longest shared segment is probably unusual for a second cousin. Of my
5 known second cousins who have tested, none are anywhere near 106.5
cMs.

Bert
--
Herbert Lazerow
lazer@...

My second cousin and I share a longest
segment of 106.5 cM's. His maternal grandmother and my paternal
grandmother were sisters, but this is not X-DNA. (The total number of
our shared cM's is 310.6)
If I understand correctly, there were six chances of recombination
between the great-grandparent generation and our generation. (If my
understanding is incorrect, I would very much appreciate it if someone
would enlighten me.)
What is the statistical likelihood of a run of 106cM's remaining
intact in 6 chances of recombination? It seems to me that it would be
rather low.


DNA Research #DNA chance of a longest segment being 106.5 cM for a second cousin #dna

Herbert Lazerow
 

I cannot answer either of your questions; perhaps a professional
statistician could.
It seems to me that the 106.5 is more in the range of first
cousins. My two first cousins on MyHeritage and I share longest
segments of 82 and 115 cMs, but the total shared in both cases is
almost 900cMs. On Family Tree DNA, the same two first cousins measure
in slightly lower: 866/61 and 835/108. A third first cousin claims
1108/114.
As for second cousins on MyHeritage, they range >from 291/75 to
240/43 [259/40 on FamilyTreeDNA], to 200/21. Second cousins on
FamilyTreeDNA are at 259/40, 234/27 and 194/25.
I conclude that those six recombinations provide much room for
variation, but even granting that, I suspect that 106.5 cMs as a
longest shared segment is probably unusual for a second cousin. Of my
5 known second cousins who have tested, none are anywhere near 106.5
cMs.

Bert
--
Herbert Lazerow
lazer@...

My second cousin and I share a longest
segment of 106.5 cM's. His maternal grandmother and my paternal
grandmother were sisters, but this is not X-DNA. (The total number of
our shared cM's is 310.6)
If I understand correctly, there were six chances of recombination
between the great-grandparent generation and our generation. (If my
understanding is incorrect, I would very much appreciate it if someone
would enlighten me.)
What is the statistical likelihood of a run of 106cM's remaining
intact in 6 chances of recombination? It seems to me that it would be
rather low.