Date   

Re: Russian Phonetics #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:44:13 UTC, zen28027@zen.co.uk (Aubrey Jacobus)
opined:

It is classic genealogy trap -when is a slight spelling difference
significant and when is it mere coincidence -
with transliteration >from Cyrillic to Latin script often via Yiddish always
written without vowels an always present nightmare .
We have a case in point for years we suspected the Litvak families KLOSS and
KLASS were the same but had no proof. Very recently we were able to compare
two ship manifests one was a US 1905 immigrant Nachamia KLAS who fitted the
profile of Nick KLASS in Chicago perfectly now we find a US 1905 immigrant
Nechamia KLOSS who surely is Nick KLASS in Chicago , confirmed by the
destination address.
Can a Russian liguist comment on how such a confusion arose.
BTW KLOSS is a relatively common German name and KLASS is rare other than in
the USA.
Aubrey Jacobus
London
I do not style myself a linguist, but I can say the following:

1) In both Cyrillic and Latin handwriting, expecially some of the
execrable examples with which we have to deal, it is no great thing to
confuse a lower-case A with an O, or vice-versa. Judith's guess about
vowel pronunciation is equally likely. Take your pick.

2) As an aside: Contrary to what is written in the query above,
Yiddish, as an Indo-European language, is *never* written
without vowels, else its written form would be incomprehensible. It is
Hebrew, with other Afro-Asiatic languages, that is written without
vowels.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the
URL is: http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address
is not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the
URL above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email
form there.

MODERATOR NOTE: This discussion, which started with the practical
question of the identity of families in Lithuania and America with
similarly spelled names, has moved well into the realm of technical
points of linguistics. Please continue the technical linguistic discussions
privately. Messages with direct genealogical content will be considered
for posting.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Russian Phonetics #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:44:13 UTC, zen28027@zen.co.uk (Aubrey Jacobus)
opined:

It is classic genealogy trap -when is a slight spelling difference
significant and when is it mere coincidence -
with transliteration >from Cyrillic to Latin script often via Yiddish always
written without vowels an always present nightmare .
We have a case in point for years we suspected the Litvak families KLOSS and
KLASS were the same but had no proof. Very recently we were able to compare
two ship manifests one was a US 1905 immigrant Nachamia KLAS who fitted the
profile of Nick KLASS in Chicago perfectly now we find a US 1905 immigrant
Nechamia KLOSS who surely is Nick KLASS in Chicago , confirmed by the
destination address.
Can a Russian liguist comment on how such a confusion arose.
BTW KLOSS is a relatively common German name and KLASS is rare other than in
the USA.
Aubrey Jacobus
London
I do not style myself a linguist, but I can say the following:

1) In both Cyrillic and Latin handwriting, expecially some of the
execrable examples with which we have to deal, it is no great thing to
confuse a lower-case A with an O, or vice-versa. Judith's guess about
vowel pronunciation is equally likely. Take your pick.

2) As an aside: Contrary to what is written in the query above,
Yiddish, as an Indo-European language, is *never* written
without vowels, else its written form would be incomprehensible. It is
Hebrew, with other Afro-Asiatic languages, that is written without
vowels.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the
URL is: http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address
is not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the
URL above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email
form there.

MODERATOR NOTE: This discussion, which started with the practical
question of the identity of families in Lithuania and America with
similarly spelled names, has moved well into the realm of technical
points of linguistics. Please continue the technical linguistic discussions
privately. Messages with direct genealogical content will be considered
for posting.


Re: Looking for German translation help - Lichtenstein family tree #general

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

I simply have to comment on the genealogical
significance of Reuben Gross's document which appeared
in two Viewmate sections on different dates:
VM7375-7378 [archive] - VM7455- 7459 [current].

It is one of the most detailed family sagas I have
seen - apparently written in 1926. It discusses the
spread of a Moravian family called LICHTENSTEIN from
Leipnik [Moravia] to Bohemia, Slovakia, Austria,
Hungary, Russia, Turkey to USA & Brazil. Many places
{and family names} are mentioned including Pressburg,
Ung. Ostra, Tyrnau, Budapest, Raab, Vienna, Chicago,
and New York.

The man who wrote it must have verbalised a tree in
front of him. Unless one has the whole document and
enters the data systematically onto a family tree it
is hard to follow.

Even if you do not speak German you may find a link as
I suspect there must be many links with Siggers all
over the world. There are links to so many names and I
have picked out just a few:

WEICHSELBAUM living in Vienna >from Galicia
FUCHS Leopold; a cantor >from Pressburg [Hungary/Slovakia]
KATZ Minka >from Prerau, Moravia - daughter of a rabbi
with many rabbinic forefathers.
ROSENWASSER Emil - Budapest;
BING Josef Plesivec;
SLECHTA Bedrich - Ung. Ostra [Moravia]
HERZ Fanni >from Trencin.

This is a prize document and a classic for anyone
studying Moravian and Bohemian genealogy and the
subsequent spread of these families throughout the
Habsburg Empire and later throughout the world, before
the holocaust.

The saga starts with VM7375: {Wieland} Bernard
LICHTENSTEIN who wandered to Krivoklat in Bohemia from
Leipnik in Moravia in the year 1809, where he built a
house in 1811. I suspect he was born ca 1785-1790. He
died in 1874. Leipnik was first settled by Jews in
1454. His first marriage was to LOWENSTEIN from
Podhradi [Frauenberg] in Bohemia.

The whole scanned document up to the final page [7458]
deals with descendants [four sons] of Bernard's first
marriage - on the last page we start with the
descendants of his second marriage [three sons and
three daughters]. Unfortunately there are not dates,
but once this tree is computerised one should be able
to make informed guesses. The first batch of children
were probably born 1812-1819 - followed soon after by
the second batch. Bernard's third marriage was
childless.

Just use this single Viewmate link and substitute the
different numbers sequentially to see all the pages:

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=7375

continue with: 7376-7377-7378-7455-7456-7457-7458

Thank you Reuben for bringing such exciting genealogy
to the General Discussion Group. It will be of great
interest to many Austria-Czech and Slovakian-Hungarian
Siggers: http://www.jewishgen.org/austriaczech/
http://www.jewishgen.org/Hungary/

We always knew that a large percentage of Hungarian
Jews were descended >from Bohemian and Moravian Jews
and here is a document which shows us the links which
are usually missing.

Celia Male [U.K.]


Lithuanian groshes (coins) #general

Lee Nydell <lnydell@...>
 

I have seen a reference that in the year of 1626, the Jewish Community
sent 1460 Lithuanian groshes (coins) to the government.

Can anyone tell me if this was a little or a lot of money in 1626?

Lee Nydell Irvine, California, United States lnydell@yahoo.com
Researching - NADEL, NUDEL, NIEDLE >from Russia, Belarus and Poland


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen re: Looking for German translation help - Lichtenstein family tree #general

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

I simply have to comment on the genealogical
significance of Reuben Gross's document which appeared
in two Viewmate sections on different dates:
VM7375-7378 [archive] - VM7455- 7459 [current].

It is one of the most detailed family sagas I have
seen - apparently written in 1926. It discusses the
spread of a Moravian family called LICHTENSTEIN from
Leipnik [Moravia] to Bohemia, Slovakia, Austria,
Hungary, Russia, Turkey to USA & Brazil. Many places
{and family names} are mentioned including Pressburg,
Ung. Ostra, Tyrnau, Budapest, Raab, Vienna, Chicago,
and New York.

The man who wrote it must have verbalised a tree in
front of him. Unless one has the whole document and
enters the data systematically onto a family tree it
is hard to follow.

Even if you do not speak German you may find a link as
I suspect there must be many links with Siggers all
over the world. There are links to so many names and I
have picked out just a few:

WEICHSELBAUM living in Vienna >from Galicia
FUCHS Leopold; a cantor >from Pressburg [Hungary/Slovakia]
KATZ Minka >from Prerau, Moravia - daughter of a rabbi
with many rabbinic forefathers.
ROSENWASSER Emil - Budapest;
BING Josef Plesivec;
SLECHTA Bedrich - Ung. Ostra [Moravia]
HERZ Fanni >from Trencin.

This is a prize document and a classic for anyone
studying Moravian and Bohemian genealogy and the
subsequent spread of these families throughout the
Habsburg Empire and later throughout the world, before
the holocaust.

The saga starts with VM7375: {Wieland} Bernard
LICHTENSTEIN who wandered to Krivoklat in Bohemia from
Leipnik in Moravia in the year 1809, where he built a
house in 1811. I suspect he was born ca 1785-1790. He
died in 1874. Leipnik was first settled by Jews in
1454. His first marriage was to LOWENSTEIN from
Podhradi [Frauenberg] in Bohemia.

The whole scanned document up to the final page [7458]
deals with descendants [four sons] of Bernard's first
marriage - on the last page we start with the
descendants of his second marriage [three sons and
three daughters]. Unfortunately there are not dates,
but once this tree is computerised one should be able
to make informed guesses. The first batch of children
were probably born 1812-1819 - followed soon after by
the second batch. Bernard's third marriage was
childless.

Just use this single Viewmate link and substitute the
different numbers sequentially to see all the pages:

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=7375

continue with: 7376-7377-7378-7455-7456-7457-7458

Thank you Reuben for bringing such exciting genealogy
to the General Discussion Group. It will be of great
interest to many Austria-Czech and Slovakian-Hungarian
Siggers: http://www.jewishgen.org/austriaczech/
http://www.jewishgen.org/Hungary/

We always knew that a large percentage of Hungarian
Jews were descended >from Bohemian and Moravian Jews
and here is a document which shows us the links which
are usually missing.

Celia Male [U.K.]


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Lithuanian groshes (coins) #general

Lee Nydell <lnydell@...>
 

I have seen a reference that in the year of 1626, the Jewish Community
sent 1460 Lithuanian groshes (coins) to the government.

Can anyone tell me if this was a little or a lot of money in 1626?

Lee Nydell Irvine, California, United States lnydell@yahoo.com
Researching - NADEL, NUDEL, NIEDLE >from Russia, Belarus and Poland


Olishabka Chernigov Region #general

Milton Friedman <miltonf@...>
 

My grandfather Robert Kruger was >from the town of Olishabka, Chernigov
Region of what is now the Ukraine I cannot find the town on a map. It may
also be a phonetic spell of the town. I am trying to locate the place.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Olishabka Chernigov Region #general

Milton Friedman <miltonf@...>
 

My grandfather Robert Kruger was >from the town of Olishabka, Chernigov
Region of what is now the Ukraine I cannot find the town on a map. It may
also be a phonetic spell of the town. I am trying to locate the place.


Re: Russian Phonetics #general

Jules Levin
 

At 07:38 AM 2/3/2006, you wrote:

It is classic genealogy trap -when is a slight spelling difference
significant and when is it mere coincidence -
with transliteration >from Cyrillic to Latin script often via Yiddish always
written without vowels an always present nightmare .
We have a case in point for years we suspected the Litvak families KLOSS and
KLASS were the same but had no proof. Very recently we were able to compare
two ship manifests one was a US 1905 immigrant Nachamia KLAS who fitted the
profile of Nick KLASS in Chicago perfectly now we find a US 1905 immigrant
Nechamia KLOSS who surely is Nick KLASS in Chicago , confirmed by the
destination address.
Can a Russian liguist comment on how such a confusion arose.
BTW KLOSS is a relatively common German name and KLASS is rare other than in
the USA.
I don't quite see how Cyrillic vs. Latin plays a
role here, since curiously enough,
the Cyrillic letters for A and O are in fact A
and O. Thus "Moscow" in Russian letters
is MOCKBA, pronounced [in NGR dialect]
'moskva'. (In standard Russian unstressed
'o' becomes 'a'.) As for the phonetics involved,
note that the 'a' involved is pronounced
'ah' as in 'father', and the 'o' involved is
pronounced 'aw', as in 'dawn' [*not* 'o' as in 'dope'!]. If you speak an
American dialect that doesn't make a distinction
between Don and dawn, you won't get this.
As for the confusion, I can't think of a reason
based on Eastern European phonetics. If both names are
attested in EEurope, they must be considered
different names. If, not, perhaps we
should look at local factors in the US. Could
the spelling be changed >from 'o' to 'a' under the influence
of the English word 'class'? I hate to resort to
the theory of ignorant immigration officials, but could the
pronunciation of Kloss as 'klaws' have been
misapprehended as 'klahs' and then written with 'a'?
Other ideas?
Jules Levin
Professor of Russian and Linguistics, Emeritus
UCLA, UCR


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Russian Phonetics #general

Jules Levin
 

At 07:38 AM 2/3/2006, you wrote:

It is classic genealogy trap -when is a slight spelling difference
significant and when is it mere coincidence -
with transliteration >from Cyrillic to Latin script often via Yiddish always
written without vowels an always present nightmare .
We have a case in point for years we suspected the Litvak families KLOSS and
KLASS were the same but had no proof. Very recently we were able to compare
two ship manifests one was a US 1905 immigrant Nachamia KLAS who fitted the
profile of Nick KLASS in Chicago perfectly now we find a US 1905 immigrant
Nechamia KLOSS who surely is Nick KLASS in Chicago , confirmed by the
destination address.
Can a Russian liguist comment on how such a confusion arose.
BTW KLOSS is a relatively common German name and KLASS is rare other than in
the USA.
I don't quite see how Cyrillic vs. Latin plays a
role here, since curiously enough,
the Cyrillic letters for A and O are in fact A
and O. Thus "Moscow" in Russian letters
is MOCKBA, pronounced [in NGR dialect]
'moskva'. (In standard Russian unstressed
'o' becomes 'a'.) As for the phonetics involved,
note that the 'a' involved is pronounced
'ah' as in 'father', and the 'o' involved is
pronounced 'aw', as in 'dawn' [*not* 'o' as in 'dope'!]. If you speak an
American dialect that doesn't make a distinction
between Don and dawn, you won't get this.
As for the confusion, I can't think of a reason
based on Eastern European phonetics. If both names are
attested in EEurope, they must be considered
different names. If, not, perhaps we
should look at local factors in the US. Could
the spelling be changed >from 'o' to 'a' under the influence
of the English word 'class'? I hate to resort to
the theory of ignorant immigration officials, but could the
pronunciation of Kloss as 'klaws' have been
misapprehended as 'klahs' and then written with 'a'?
Other ideas?
Jules Levin
Professor of Russian and Linguistics, Emeritus
UCLA, UCR


Re: FindUSA pulls library access - clarification #general

Yehudh bn Shlmo
 

--- Renee Steinig <rsteinig@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:

Unfortunately, news came today >from Godfrey's
director, Richard E. Black, that FindUSA's parent
company has "made a business decision to discontinue
the FindUSA database service to libraries effective
immediately."
I just want to clarify this. When ReferenceUSA said
that they discontinued the product, they did not mean
just library access. The FindUSA online product was
completely removed >from the marketplace, even to
businesses.

Yehudah ben Shlomo
U.S.A


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: FindUSA pulls library access - clarification #general

Yehudh bn Shlmo
 

--- Renee Steinig <rsteinig@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:

Unfortunately, news came today >from Godfrey's
director, Richard E. Black, that FindUSA's parent
company has "made a business decision to discontinue
the FindUSA database service to libraries effective
immediately."
I just want to clarify this. When ReferenceUSA said
that they discontinued the product, they did not mean
just library access. The FindUSA online product was
completely removed >from the marketplace, even to
businesses.

Yehudah ben Shlomo
U.S.A


mtDNA: Whom to test? #dna

Pam Weston <pweston@...>
 

Would there be any difference in the test results if I tested my
mother, myself, my daughter, or my granddaughter? Would the mtDNA
all be exactly the same?

Pam Weston
Chicago/Rincon, PR.


DNA Research #DNA mtDNA: Whom to test? #dna

Pam Weston <pweston@...>
 

Would there be any difference in the test results if I tested my
mother, myself, my daughter, or my granddaughter? Would the mtDNA
all be exactly the same?

Pam Weston
Chicago/Rincon, PR.


Reference to GARF #lithuania

s.gilman@...
 

What is the reference GARF, f.7021,op84,d.14,1.12 ?

S. Gilman


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Reference to GARF #lithuania

s.gilman@...
 

What is the reference GARF, f.7021,op84,d.14,1.12 ?

S. Gilman


von der PORTEN and FUERST [Hamburg] #germany

Irene Newhouse <einew@...>
 

I have in my possession a photocopy of a family tree that's at the Leo Baeck
Institute. It's the family history of Dr. Moritz FUERST, of Hamburg. Very
early on it says that the earliest FUERST in Hamburg was Chaim, son of
Ruben, described by Glueckl of Hameln as the richest Jew in Hamburg. The
family tree goes on to say that he had 2 daughters and 4 sons. [Published
genealogies focus on two sons, Moses & Salomon]. One daughter married
Salomon Isaak Knorr von der Porten. This couple is the ancestor of the
Hamburg von der Porten family. Does anyone have another reference for this?

Yes, I've already tried a web search & the FTJP. Thanks!

Irene Newhouse Kihei HI 96753 <einew@hotmail.com>


Re: Reference Book on Jews from Posen #poland

Elsebeth Paikin
 

At 03:27 03-02-2006, Geoff Kaiser wrote:
I have just recently been advised of a excellent book on the Jews of Posen.
"Aus Vergangenheit und Gegenwart der Juden und Jud. Gemeinden in den
Posener Landen" is the title of the book published in 1909 by Dr. A.
Heppner and J.Herzberg....snip...
Thank you for that information. Unfortunately I
had no luck finding it in Denmark. But FYI I
found another book at the Royal Library by the
same authors which I will mention in case anyone is interested:

"Aus Vergangenheit und Gegenwart der Juden in
Hohensalza : nach gedruckten und ungeruckten
Quellen" / von Dr. A. Heppner und J. Herzberg
Publ: Frankfurt a. M. : J. Kauffmann, 1907.
with the note: "Erweiterter Separatabdruck von
'Aus Vergangenheit und Gegenwart der Juden und
der J=FCd. Gemeinden in den Posener Landen="
(which means something like extended separate
print of "Aus Vergangenheit und Gegenwart der
Juden und der J=FCd. Gemeinden in den Posener Landen")

Best regards


Elsebeth Paikin, President
Jewish Genealogical Society of Denmark:
http://www.jewishgen.org/jgs-denmark/
&
SIG Coordinator and webmaster:
JewishGen's Scandinavia SIG
http://www.jewishgen.org/scandinavia/
mailto:elsebeth@paikin.dk


German SIG #Germany von der PORTEN and FUERST [Hamburg] #germany

Irene Newhouse <einew@...>
 

I have in my possession a photocopy of a family tree that's at the Leo Baeck
Institute. It's the family history of Dr. Moritz FUERST, of Hamburg. Very
early on it says that the earliest FUERST in Hamburg was Chaim, son of
Ruben, described by Glueckl of Hameln as the richest Jew in Hamburg. The
family tree goes on to say that he had 2 daughters and 4 sons. [Published
genealogies focus on two sons, Moses & Salomon]. One daughter married
Salomon Isaak Knorr von der Porten. This couple is the ancestor of the
Hamburg von der Porten family. Does anyone have another reference for this?

Yes, I've already tried a web search & the FTJP. Thanks!

Irene Newhouse Kihei HI 96753 <einew@hotmail.com>


JRI Poland #Poland Re: Reference Book on Jews from Posen #poland

Elsebeth Paikin
 

At 03:27 03-02-2006, Geoff Kaiser wrote:
I have just recently been advised of a excellent book on the Jews of Posen.
"Aus Vergangenheit und Gegenwart der Juden und Jud. Gemeinden in den
Posener Landen" is the title of the book published in 1909 by Dr. A.
Heppner and J.Herzberg....snip...
Thank you for that information. Unfortunately I
had no luck finding it in Denmark. But FYI I
found another book at the Royal Library by the
same authors which I will mention in case anyone is interested:

"Aus Vergangenheit und Gegenwart der Juden in
Hohensalza : nach gedruckten und ungeruckten
Quellen" / von Dr. A. Heppner und J. Herzberg
Publ: Frankfurt a. M. : J. Kauffmann, 1907.
with the note: "Erweiterter Separatabdruck von
'Aus Vergangenheit und Gegenwart der Juden und
der J=FCd. Gemeinden in den Posener Landen="
(which means something like extended separate
print of "Aus Vergangenheit und Gegenwart der
Juden und der J=FCd. Gemeinden in den Posener Landen")

Best regards


Elsebeth Paikin, President
Jewish Genealogical Society of Denmark:
http://www.jewishgen.org/jgs-denmark/
&
SIG Coordinator and webmaster:
JewishGen's Scandinavia SIG
http://www.jewishgen.org/scandinavia/
mailto:elsebeth@paikin.dk