Date   

Re: London names: HOLRIE, ABRAHAM, BRAHAM, POULTON/POULTOW, #general

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

This topic brought up by Fraida Cohen of NY has resulted in a flurry
of postings. Harold Pollins has already addressed the question of
biblical first names in England and as he says, they are definitely
no marker for Jewish families. {Fraida wrote: I find a number of
POULTON families having members with Jewish-sounding given names.}

To my comment: <I cannot find Minnie and John POULTON in any census
after their marriage in 1890.> Fraida then wrote: <I find a Minnie
Poulton in the 1901 UK census and one in the 1910 census in
the USA.>

Anyone who studies censuses knows that one has to pinpoint the right
*Minnie* - there are lots of Minnie POULTON in 1901 but I have not
yet found the right one who matches the profile of *our Minnie nee
Holrie in Warsaw". That is not all - I have not even found father
Albert POULTON and the young POULTON family in the much earlier
censuses. Nor have I found Caroline HOLRIE and her brother Hyman
after 1891.

from Ottawa Harry Dodsworth writes: <This is a very confusing family
-deaf and dumb registered for two different people and different
first names for Mrs HOLRIE - Hyman (grandson, 1881 census or son,
1891 census).>

That first name change in different censuses is common too. Hyman's
status is puzzling. But mistakes do happen as this family probably
did not apeak English in 1881 shortly after their arrival in London.
The 1891 cenus is more likely to be correct.

I am more interested in the original name of the HOLRIE {HOROWITZ
perhaps?] family >from Warsaw - who never bothered to naturalise for
20 years - and where the lost family members were in the 1840s
[POULTON} and 1901 [POULTON and HOLRIE], including young Hyman HOLRIE
born in Warsaw in 1878 and his sister Caroline [who may, or may not
be, deaf and dumb]. I have found a possible candidate for Hyman
though - and in 1901 he is naturalised, repairs watches, lives alone
at 173 Deptford High Street [right age and area] and is called
HARRIS. I really wonder if he changed his name again? Only a hunch
... And Caroline may be in an institution as her father has moved in
with his daughter Minnie?

Celia Male [U.K.]


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: London names: HOLRIE, ABRAHAM, BRAHAM, POULTON/POULTOW, #general

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

This topic brought up by Fraida Cohen of NY has resulted in a flurry
of postings. Harold Pollins has already addressed the question of
biblical first names in England and as he says, they are definitely
no marker for Jewish families. {Fraida wrote: I find a number of
POULTON families having members with Jewish-sounding given names.}

To my comment: <I cannot find Minnie and John POULTON in any census
after their marriage in 1890.> Fraida then wrote: <I find a Minnie
Poulton in the 1901 UK census and one in the 1910 census in
the USA.>

Anyone who studies censuses knows that one has to pinpoint the right
*Minnie* - there are lots of Minnie POULTON in 1901 but I have not
yet found the right one who matches the profile of *our Minnie nee
Holrie in Warsaw". That is not all - I have not even found father
Albert POULTON and the young POULTON family in the much earlier
censuses. Nor have I found Caroline HOLRIE and her brother Hyman
after 1891.

from Ottawa Harry Dodsworth writes: <This is a very confusing family
-deaf and dumb registered for two different people and different
first names for Mrs HOLRIE - Hyman (grandson, 1881 census or son,
1891 census).>

That first name change in different censuses is common too. Hyman's
status is puzzling. But mistakes do happen as this family probably
did not apeak English in 1881 shortly after their arrival in London.
The 1891 cenus is more likely to be correct.

I am more interested in the original name of the HOLRIE {HOROWITZ
perhaps?] family >from Warsaw - who never bothered to naturalise for
20 years - and where the lost family members were in the 1840s
[POULTON} and 1901 [POULTON and HOLRIE], including young Hyman HOLRIE
born in Warsaw in 1878 and his sister Caroline [who may, or may not
be, deaf and dumb]. I have found a possible candidate for Hyman
though - and in 1901 he is naturalised, repairs watches, lives alone
at 173 Deptford High Street [right age and area] and is called
HARRIS. I really wonder if he changed his name again? Only a hunch
... And Caroline may be in an institution as her father has moved in
with his daughter Minnie?

Celia Male [U.K.]


Re: London names: HOLRIE, ABRAHAM, BRAHAM, POULTON/POULTOW, #general

Bubby <yeruchem18@...>
 

First, thank you for your response.

John Poulton is recorded as POULTON on the GRO marriage index.
It was not unusual for couples to give the same address on marriage
certificates; I wouldn't draw any conclusion >from this.
That's an interesting bit of information.

The family is certainly confusing. On the 1881 census, Harris Holrie
is listed as Deaf and Dumb. His wife was recorded as Eva.
On the 1891 census there is no record of a handicap for Harris but
a daughter Caroline (33) is listed as Deaf and Dumb. Harris's wife
is listed as Hannah.
Yes, the family is quite confusing! It seems as if the family members change
names almost as often as they change clothes!

The following family members are listed in the 1881 census: Harris, head;
Eva, wife; Mary, daughter; Annie, daughter; Minnie, daughter; Hyman,
grandson.

In the 1891, the family members are listed: Harris, head; Hannah, wife;
Caroline, daughter; Minnie, daughter; Hyman; son.

Between censuses, Eva's name changed to Hannah (unless Eva died or Harris
divorced her and he remarried in the ten years between the censuses). Mary
is gone, Annie is gone and Caroline has appeared and Hyman went >from being
Harris' grandson to his son.

I also noticed what you are saying about the listing of different family
members as deaf and dumb in the 1881 and 1891 censuses.

The daughter, Mary, was listed in the 1881 census as married and I am
assuming that Hyman, who is listed initially as a grandson, is her son. And
I also noted that in the 1891 census, Mary is no longer listed. Would the
census takers make note if a person was divorced? Where is her husband?
Later, Mary is not around and Hyman is listed as a son. Could Mary have
gotten remarried and left her son with her parents? Could she have passed
away?

Harris Holrie died in the December quarter of 1903 (GRO Index).
I have a copy of his death certificate. He was living with his daugher,
Annie, and son-in-law, Louis Braham at 124 Victoria Dock Road at the time.
Their children were: Sarah, Sidney, Lilly and Caroline. It's possible that
Caroline was named after her aunt Caroline who died somewhere between the
1891 and 1901 censuses.

If Hyman (grandson, 1881 census or son, 1891 census) was born
in Warsaw in 1878 and moved to England with the whole family,
it would appear they moved to England between 1878 and 1881.
I hadn't thought of that, but you are right! But I wonder why Hyman is not
found after the 1891 census.

Thanks again for your input.

Fraida Cohen
New York


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: London names: HOLRIE, ABRAHAM, BRAHAM, POULTON/POULTOW, #general

Bubby <yeruchem18@...>
 

First, thank you for your response.

John Poulton is recorded as POULTON on the GRO marriage index.
It was not unusual for couples to give the same address on marriage
certificates; I wouldn't draw any conclusion >from this.
That's an interesting bit of information.

The family is certainly confusing. On the 1881 census, Harris Holrie
is listed as Deaf and Dumb. His wife was recorded as Eva.
On the 1891 census there is no record of a handicap for Harris but
a daughter Caroline (33) is listed as Deaf and Dumb. Harris's wife
is listed as Hannah.
Yes, the family is quite confusing! It seems as if the family members change
names almost as often as they change clothes!

The following family members are listed in the 1881 census: Harris, head;
Eva, wife; Mary, daughter; Annie, daughter; Minnie, daughter; Hyman,
grandson.

In the 1891, the family members are listed: Harris, head; Hannah, wife;
Caroline, daughter; Minnie, daughter; Hyman; son.

Between censuses, Eva's name changed to Hannah (unless Eva died or Harris
divorced her and he remarried in the ten years between the censuses). Mary
is gone, Annie is gone and Caroline has appeared and Hyman went >from being
Harris' grandson to his son.

I also noticed what you are saying about the listing of different family
members as deaf and dumb in the 1881 and 1891 censuses.

The daughter, Mary, was listed in the 1881 census as married and I am
assuming that Hyman, who is listed initially as a grandson, is her son. And
I also noted that in the 1891 census, Mary is no longer listed. Would the
census takers make note if a person was divorced? Where is her husband?
Later, Mary is not around and Hyman is listed as a son. Could Mary have
gotten remarried and left her son with her parents? Could she have passed
away?

Harris Holrie died in the December quarter of 1903 (GRO Index).
I have a copy of his death certificate. He was living with his daugher,
Annie, and son-in-law, Louis Braham at 124 Victoria Dock Road at the time.
Their children were: Sarah, Sidney, Lilly and Caroline. It's possible that
Caroline was named after her aunt Caroline who died somewhere between the
1891 and 1901 censuses.

If Hyman (grandson, 1881 census or son, 1891 census) was born
in Warsaw in 1878 and moved to England with the whole family,
it would appear they moved to England between 1878 and 1881.
I hadn't thought of that, but you are right! But I wonder why Hyman is not
found after the 1891 census.

Thanks again for your input.

Fraida Cohen
New York


Re: origin of family name AMSTERDAM #general

Roger Lustig <julierog@...>
 

Stan:
No quarrels with what you say, but a few additional points:

--One need not have lived somewhere to have a name >from that place. A
visit would have been sufficient--or perhaps even a business trading
with that place. A cheese merchant might well have taken such a surname
in hopes of improving business!

--There's a place in the former East Prussia that was called Preussisch
Holland, nowadays Paslek in Poland. Some HOLLAENDERs probably come >from
there; why not an AMSTERDAM(ER) or two? (There's also a SCHOTTLAND up
around there somewhere. Schmuyle is my darling, my darling...)

--The presence of Yiddish words in slang does not necessarily mean that
East-European Ashkenazic Jews lived where the slang is spoken. The old
surviving slang expressions are often >from underground/criminal argot
('Rotwelsch' in German); and people who used it--not unlike Jews in the
old days--were far more mobile than most other people. (Not that Jews
were lowlifes; but many of them did a lot of traveling for business,
etc.--and they weren't serfs.) Accordingly the language got around too.
Yiddish per se wasn't spoken in most of Germany
either--"Jewish-German" of one flavor or another was used--and words
from there, and those imported by travelers >from the East, came into use
in far more places than had Jewish communities large enough to affect
the language of their neighbors. In short: words have longer legs than
people do.

Onward!

Roger Lustig
Princeton, NJ

Stan Goodman wrote:
On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 14:18:06 UTC, mtseligmann@theverybest.com (Michele
Seligmann) asked:


I am looking for the origin of family name AMSTERDAM - My grandfather
was Abram ( Adolf ) - at time of war living in Krakow. I know the
my family goes back at least up to my great grand father - Is there a
Sephardic connection ??
The obvious answer, which I'm sure you have considered and discarded for
good reasons, is that he, or earlier forebears, lived in Amsterdam before
migrating to Poland. You haven't said why this is an inadequate explanation.

There were many sfaradim in Holland after the 15th century, seeking a haven
from the Spanish Inquisition, and your family may have a heritage >from them.
But it isn't true that all Dutch Jews were Sfaradim at any time in history
-- witness the considerable representation of Yiddish in Dutch slang.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: origin of family name AMSTERDAM #general

Roger Lustig <julierog@...>
 

Stan:
No quarrels with what you say, but a few additional points:

--One need not have lived somewhere to have a name >from that place. A
visit would have been sufficient--or perhaps even a business trading
with that place. A cheese merchant might well have taken such a surname
in hopes of improving business!

--There's a place in the former East Prussia that was called Preussisch
Holland, nowadays Paslek in Poland. Some HOLLAENDERs probably come >from
there; why not an AMSTERDAM(ER) or two? (There's also a SCHOTTLAND up
around there somewhere. Schmuyle is my darling, my darling...)

--The presence of Yiddish words in slang does not necessarily mean that
East-European Ashkenazic Jews lived where the slang is spoken. The old
surviving slang expressions are often >from underground/criminal argot
('Rotwelsch' in German); and people who used it--not unlike Jews in the
old days--were far more mobile than most other people. (Not that Jews
were lowlifes; but many of them did a lot of traveling for business,
etc.--and they weren't serfs.) Accordingly the language got around too.
Yiddish per se wasn't spoken in most of Germany
either--"Jewish-German" of one flavor or another was used--and words
from there, and those imported by travelers >from the East, came into use
in far more places than had Jewish communities large enough to affect
the language of their neighbors. In short: words have longer legs than
people do.

Onward!

Roger Lustig
Princeton, NJ

Stan Goodman wrote:
On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 14:18:06 UTC, mtseligmann@theverybest.com (Michele
Seligmann) asked:


I am looking for the origin of family name AMSTERDAM - My grandfather
was Abram ( Adolf ) - at time of war living in Krakow. I know the
my family goes back at least up to my great grand father - Is there a
Sephardic connection ??
The obvious answer, which I'm sure you have considered and discarded for
good reasons, is that he, or earlier forebears, lived in Amsterdam before
migrating to Poland. You haven't said why this is an inadequate explanation.

There were many sfaradim in Holland after the 15th century, seeking a haven
from the Spanish Inquisition, and your family may have a heritage >from them.
But it isn't true that all Dutch Jews were Sfaradim at any time in history
-- witness the considerable representation of Yiddish in Dutch slang.


LEVI/SHERESHEVSKY #lodz #poland

Steve Levy <jtlevy1@...>
 

I am presently trying to compile information on my grandparents Jacob LEVI
(1843-1898)and Hannah LEVI(SHERESHEVSKY) (abt 1847-1934) who emigrated >from
Prussia to America in 1875. They had 3 children born in Prussia (Amelia b.
1864, Herman b.1868,and Fannie b.1869) and 3 children born in
America/Chicago (Mose 1875-1923, Mena 1876-1946, and Michael b. 1878). The
family initially settled in Chicago, but moved to St Paul/Minneapolis
between 1880-1890, where they lived for many years.

Although I am still searching for information on Jacobs's father, Hannah's
father was

Moses SHERESHEVSKY and her mother was Anna, both >from Prussia.

The early family members listed homes as Prussia, however they all spoke
Russian and

After 1900 listed Russia rather than Prussia as their homeland on census
documents.

I am not sure if this narrows down their area of homeland or not-I would
appreciate any information on location of Russian speaking portion of
Prussia or any guidance on how to gather more data on earlier LEVI or
SHERESHEVESKY relatives in Prussia.

Also have been unable to find any immigration records for Chicago around
1875-are these available ??

Thanks in advance for any assistance

Steve Levy

bonita springs, florida


Lodz Area Research Group #Lodz #Poland LEVI/SHERESHEVSKY #lodz #poland

Steve Levy <jtlevy1@...>
 

I am presently trying to compile information on my grandparents Jacob LEVI
(1843-1898)and Hannah LEVI(SHERESHEVSKY) (abt 1847-1934) who emigrated >from
Prussia to America in 1875. They had 3 children born in Prussia (Amelia b.
1864, Herman b.1868,and Fannie b.1869) and 3 children born in
America/Chicago (Mose 1875-1923, Mena 1876-1946, and Michael b. 1878). The
family initially settled in Chicago, but moved to St Paul/Minneapolis
between 1880-1890, where they lived for many years.

Although I am still searching for information on Jacobs's father, Hannah's
father was

Moses SHERESHEVSKY and her mother was Anna, both >from Prussia.

The early family members listed homes as Prussia, however they all spoke
Russian and

After 1900 listed Russia rather than Prussia as their homeland on census
documents.

I am not sure if this narrows down their area of homeland or not-I would
appreciate any information on location of Russian speaking portion of
Prussia or any guidance on how to gather more data on earlier LEVI or
SHERESHEVESKY relatives in Prussia.

Also have been unable to find any immigration records for Chicago around
1875-are these available ??

Thanks in advance for any assistance

Steve Levy

bonita springs, florida


Anglicization of Polish Names #general

Steve Orlen
 

Dear Cousins,

Stan Goodman writes: "It does seem strange that Samuel took it upon
himself to anglicize the forename of a parent who was in Poland and
therefore not in need of anglicization, but we know little of Samuel
and his proclivities."

This odd practice was not uncommon in the States. In a number of
obituaries, I found family members who hadn't immigrated given
American names. In one case, Chana became Anna, and her husband
Raphael was written as Robert. Who knows why, though I can imagine a
number of possibilities.

Best, Steve Orlen
Tucson, Arizona


Rebe Shmirl STERN, Israel Yakov, and Shimon - Jonava #general

Yehudh bn Shlmo
 

I am looking for information on these relatives of
Freda KHASID who were in Jonava at some point before
the Holocaust. Freda wrote about herself in the Janova
Yizkor book.

She was the youngest of 2 daughters of Rebe Israel
Yakov. She had a brother Alter who was an artist and
sculptor and taught at the Yavne school in Jonava.
Freda's sister married the son of Rebe Shimon and she
had 4 sons. Her brother Alter married the daughter of
Rebe Shmirl Stern, Libe Chana and had 2 twin girls.

If anyone recognizes any of these names please
contact me.

Sincerely,
Yehudah ben Shlomo
U.S.A.


Lomza naming patterns #general

Shari Kantrow
 

Hello,
In researching family names for the first time in
Lomza mid 19th century (1830's-1880's), I came across
something I had not seen before and wonder what your
thoughts are on this. I noticed that unlike in other
towns I had researched in Galicia or Ukraine, the
naming patterns in the Lomza region were very
patryonymic, for example, Herszkowicz,Danielowicz,
Abramowicz,etc. Would several generations keep that
name once assigned; or would it change with each
person? For example, Daniel's son Abram would be Abram
Danielowicz, and likewise, would Abram's son Mendel be
Mendel Abramowicz?
I am very confused. Please share your thoughts.
Shari Kantrow


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Anglicization of Polish Names #general

Steve Orlen
 

Dear Cousins,

Stan Goodman writes: "It does seem strange that Samuel took it upon
himself to anglicize the forename of a parent who was in Poland and
therefore not in need of anglicization, but we know little of Samuel
and his proclivities."

This odd practice was not uncommon in the States. In a number of
obituaries, I found family members who hadn't immigrated given
American names. In one case, Chana became Anna, and her husband
Raphael was written as Robert. Who knows why, though I can imagine a
number of possibilities.

Best, Steve Orlen
Tucson, Arizona


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Rebe Shmirl STERN, Israel Yakov, and Shimon - Jonava #general

Yehudh bn Shlmo
 

I am looking for information on these relatives of
Freda KHASID who were in Jonava at some point before
the Holocaust. Freda wrote about herself in the Janova
Yizkor book.

She was the youngest of 2 daughters of Rebe Israel
Yakov. She had a brother Alter who was an artist and
sculptor and taught at the Yavne school in Jonava.
Freda's sister married the son of Rebe Shimon and she
had 4 sons. Her brother Alter married the daughter of
Rebe Shmirl Stern, Libe Chana and had 2 twin girls.

If anyone recognizes any of these names please
contact me.

Sincerely,
Yehudah ben Shlomo
U.S.A.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Lomza naming patterns #general

Shari Kantrow
 

Hello,
In researching family names for the first time in
Lomza mid 19th century (1830's-1880's), I came across
something I had not seen before and wonder what your
thoughts are on this. I noticed that unlike in other
towns I had researched in Galicia or Ukraine, the
naming patterns in the Lomza region were very
patryonymic, for example, Herszkowicz,Danielowicz,
Abramowicz,etc. Would several generations keep that
name once assigned; or would it change with each
person? For example, Daniel's son Abram would be Abram
Danielowicz, and likewise, would Abram's son Mendel be
Mendel Abramowicz?
I am very confused. Please share your thoughts.
Shari Kantrow


What does Rav mean? #general

WALTER SPECTOR
 

Dear Genners,

I had a great uncle's tombstone translated. His father's name(my ggfather)
was translated as Rav Yosef. On the nine other tombstones for his
children is just Yosef. Does Rav have a special significance?

Walter Spector
Philadelphia
educonser@comcast.net

Searching:
SPECTOR- Zaslov (Izyaslov) Volhynia Gub. Ukraine-Woodbine NJ-Phila. PA;
EBY (AB) Rushany, Grodno Gub. Belarus-Woodbine NJ- Phila.PA;
BECKER- Klevan, Rovno Phila. PA Brooklyn NY: SELTZER (ZELTZER) Rovno,
Klevan, Alexandria; -Brooklyn NY LONDE,- LANDAU, LONDON, LANDER,
Proskrov- Phila. -PA GREENSTEIN- Boston MA:
PITKOWSKI Rushany, Grodno Gub. STEINBERG - Philadelphia


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen What does Rav mean? #general

WALTER SPECTOR
 

Dear Genners,

I had a great uncle's tombstone translated. His father's name(my ggfather)
was translated as Rav Yosef. On the nine other tombstones for his
children is just Yosef. Does Rav have a special significance?

Walter Spector
Philadelphia
educonser@comcast.net

Searching:
SPECTOR- Zaslov (Izyaslov) Volhynia Gub. Ukraine-Woodbine NJ-Phila. PA;
EBY (AB) Rushany, Grodno Gub. Belarus-Woodbine NJ- Phila.PA;
BECKER- Klevan, Rovno Phila. PA Brooklyn NY: SELTZER (ZELTZER) Rovno,
Klevan, Alexandria; -Brooklyn NY LONDE,- LANDAU, LONDON, LANDER,
Proskrov- Phila. -PA GREENSTEIN- Boston MA:
PITKOWSKI Rushany, Grodno Gub. STEINBERG - Philadelphia


New family surname found LANSMAN #general

Diane Jacobs <thegenie@...>
 

After a number of years of searching my husband's family, I just found a
marriage of a great aunt which gives me her mother's maiden name.

I have a Riva LANSMAN JACOBSON >from Myszniec (prounounced Mushnick), Poland
or Lithuania who married Abraham Moshe Jacobson. Most of their children
emigrated to NY in the early 1900s and the brothers were in the soda /
seltzer distribution business in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Their daughter
Sarah JACOBS married Max LEES in 1914 in NY.

I am searching for other Jacobs / Jacobson daughters, nieces and
daughters-in-law whose passenger manifests I have found but can't find any
record of them in the US.

If anyone knows of a Lansman, Landsman, Jacobs or Jacobson connection from
these areas or businesses, please let me know.

Diane Jacobs
Somerset, NJ


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen New family surname found LANSMAN #general

Diane Jacobs <thegenie@...>
 

After a number of years of searching my husband's family, I just found a
marriage of a great aunt which gives me her mother's maiden name.

I have a Riva LANSMAN JACOBSON >from Myszniec (prounounced Mushnick), Poland
or Lithuania who married Abraham Moshe Jacobson. Most of their children
emigrated to NY in the early 1900s and the brothers were in the soda /
seltzer distribution business in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Their daughter
Sarah JACOBS married Max LEES in 1914 in NY.

I am searching for other Jacobs / Jacobson daughters, nieces and
daughters-in-law whose passenger manifests I have found but can't find any
record of them in the US.

If anyone knows of a Lansman, Landsman, Jacobs or Jacobson connection from
these areas or businesses, please let me know.

Diane Jacobs
Somerset, NJ


ViewMate Translation #general

Adele Burstein <aburstein@...>
 

I have found two ketubahs among some family papers and am interested in a
translation of the hebrew which is written in to determine the names of the
betrothed and any other personal information. I have posted the first in
two parts on Viewmate as numbers 8311 and 8312.

Please contact me privately with translations.
Thank you so much in advance for your help.

Adele Burstein
New York, NY

MODERATOR NOTE: The direct URLs of the images are:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=8311 and
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=8312


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen ViewMate Translation #general

Adele Burstein <aburstein@...>
 

I have found two ketubahs among some family papers and am interested in a
translation of the hebrew which is written in to determine the names of the
betrothed and any other personal information. I have posted the first in
two parts on Viewmate as numbers 8311 and 8312.

Please contact me privately with translations.
Thank you so much in advance for your help.

Adele Burstein
New York, NY

MODERATOR NOTE: The direct URLs of the images are:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=8311 and
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=8312