Date   

Re: Descendants of Meir of Rothenburg #germany

MBernet@...
 

In reference to Gregor Brandt's <Gregor.Brand@t-online.de> message
of 2002.09.29:

Gregor Brand has given some valuable information on the fact that
the MaHarRaM had only dughters and that there is no record of their
descendants. We should however not assume that any specific person
named Maram/Marum is axiomatically a descendant of Rabbi Meir of
Rothenburg

Gregor wrote:
[...] Irving Agus's opus, "Rabbi Meir of Rothenburg" [...] wrote
that no sons of R. Meir are mentioned in the responsa literature (or
anywhere else), but only daughters (whose names are not known) [...]
in the Festschrift for Rabbiner Dr. Lothar Rotschild, Bern 1970, 99
- 125), [Bernhard] Brilling explains that the name MARUM or MARAM
(as a first name as well as a surname) indicates (at least for the
MARAMs and MARUMs before 1800) descent >from the illustrious Rabbi
Meir of Rothenburg. Brilling gives the examples and dates where and
when this name occurred. According to Brilling the first Hebrew
appearance of this name was in 1581 on the gravestone of Jutta BING
(daughter of Moses BING), where MaHaRaM WIRSCHLER (her maternal
grandfather) is mentioned.
from the death of the MaHaRaM in 1293 to Jutta Bing's gravestone in
1581 is nearly three centuries--without any recording of the names
of any of the MaHaRaM's descendants, three centuries of turmoil,
persecution, pestilence. It would be difficult to substantiate
descent over such a long period of time (or even to the birth of
MaHaRaM Wirschler around, let's guess, 1450) on the basis of
unrecorded tradition alone.

It was common then, and it is common now, for some Jews to call a
child not after a forbear but after an illustrious person. We all
like to discover that our family descends >from someone famous, and
it's nice to speculate "I wonder if," but as genners we must be
careful not to fall victims to wishful thinking. More than one
father named his son Akiva or Alexander, more than one rabbi took or
was given the appelation Ba`al Shem, I'd guess quite a few people
were named YomTov after one of the illustrious YomTovs, even the
MaHaRaM's name ultimately goes back to that of the Tanna, Rabbi
Me'ir who lived over a thousand years earlier.

All we know for sure is that >from the 16th century on, Maram or
Marum became a kinnuy for Me'ir. Does it prove descent >from the
MaHaRaM of Rothenburg? I doubt it. Does it prove the person's Hebrew
name was Me'ir? Most probably. If anyone wants to argue descent
from Rabbi Me'ir of Rothenburg on the basis of a Marum ancestor, let
me tell you about my descent >from YomTov Lipmann Heller, >from YomTov
of Joigny (and York), >from the MaHaRaL, Rashi, Kalonymos ben
Kalonymos, Chai Gaon... Maybe, maybe, but I have absolutely no
proof.

Michael Bernet, New York
mailto:mBernet@aol.com

WOLFF (Pfungstadt, Frankfurt/M, Koenigsberg, Amsterdam, N.Carolina);
BERNET, BERNERT, JONDORF(Frensdorf, Bamberg, Nurnberg); FEUCHTWANGER
(Schwabach, Hagenbach & Fuerth); KONIGSHOFER (anywhere); BERG,
WOLF(F), (Demmelsdorf & Zeckendorf); Shim`on GUTENSTEIN (Bad Homburg
ca 1760); FRENSDORF/ER (anywhere); MAINZER (Lorsch); anyone in
Ermreuth or Floss; GOLDSCHMIDT (B. Homburg, Hessdorf). ALTMANN
(Silesia); TIMMENDORFER


Rabbinic Genealogy SIG #Rabbinic Re: Descendants of Meir of Rothenburg #rabbinic

MBernet@...
 

In reference to Gregor Brandt's <Gregor.Brand@t-online.de> message
of 2002.09.29:

Gregor Brand has given some valuable information on the fact that
the MaHarRaM had only dughters and that there is no record of their
descendants. We should however not assume that any specific person
named Maram/Marum is axiomatically a descendant of Rabbi Meir of
Rothenburg

Gregor wrote:
[...] Irving Agus's opus, "Rabbi Meir of Rothenburg" [...] wrote
that no sons of R. Meir are mentioned in the responsa literature (or
anywhere else), but only daughters (whose names are not known) [...]
in the Festschrift for Rabbiner Dr. Lothar Rotschild, Bern 1970, 99
- 125), [Bernhard] Brilling explains that the name MARUM or MARAM
(as a first name as well as a surname) indicates (at least for the
MARAMs and MARUMs before 1800) descent >from the illustrious Rabbi
Meir of Rothenburg. Brilling gives the examples and dates where and
when this name occurred. According to Brilling the first Hebrew
appearance of this name was in 1581 on the gravestone of Jutta BING
(daughter of Moses BING), where MaHaRaM WIRSCHLER (her maternal
grandfather) is mentioned.
from the death of the MaHaRaM in 1293 to Jutta Bing's gravestone in
1581 is nearly three centuries--without any recording of the names
of any of the MaHaRaM's descendants, three centuries of turmoil,
persecution, pestilence. It would be difficult to substantiate
descent over such a long period of time (or even to the birth of
MaHaRaM Wirschler around, let's guess, 1450) on the basis of
unrecorded tradition alone.

It was common then, and it is common now, for some Jews to call a
child not after a forbear but after an illustrious person. We all
like to discover that our family descends >from someone famous, and
it's nice to speculate "I wonder if," but as genners we must be
careful not to fall victims to wishful thinking. More than one
father named his son Akiva or Alexander, more than one rabbi took or
was given the appelation Ba`al Shem, I'd guess quite a few people
were named YomTov after one of the illustrious YomTovs, even the
MaHaRaM's name ultimately goes back to that of the Tanna, Rabbi
Me'ir who lived over a thousand years earlier.

All we know for sure is that >from the 16th century on, Maram or
Marum became a kinnuy for Me'ir. Does it prove descent >from the
MaHaRaM of Rothenburg? I doubt it. Does it prove the person's Hebrew
name was Me'ir? Most probably. If anyone wants to argue descent
from Rabbi Me'ir of Rothenburg on the basis of a Marum ancestor, let
me tell you about my descent >from YomTov Lipmann Heller, >from YomTov
of Joigny (and York), >from the MaHaRaL, Rashi, Kalonymos ben
Kalonymos, Chai Gaon... Maybe, maybe, but I have absolutely no
proof.

Michael Bernet, New York
mailto:mBernet@aol.com

WOLFF (Pfungstadt, Frankfurt/M, Koenigsberg, Amsterdam, N.Carolina);
BERNET, BERNERT, JONDORF(Frensdorf, Bamberg, Nurnberg); FEUCHTWANGER
(Schwabach, Hagenbach & Fuerth); KONIGSHOFER (anywhere); BERG,
WOLF(F), (Demmelsdorf & Zeckendorf); Shim`on GUTENSTEIN (Bad Homburg
ca 1760); FRENSDORF/ER (anywhere); MAINZER (Lorsch); anyone in
Ermreuth or Floss; GOLDSCHMIDT (B. Homburg, Hessdorf). ALTMANN
(Silesia); TIMMENDORFER


WHat is new on the Belarus SIG website #general

Edward Rosenbaum <erosenbaum@...>
 

This month, 6 new pages with over 16500 names have been added to the Belarus
SIG website.

-1906 Minsk Uyezd Duma List

-Borisov and Vicinity Relief Committee, contributed by Jerry Seligsohn

-Mogilev Cemetery, contributed by Leonid Plotkin

-Amdurer Benevolent Association, contributed by Jerry Seligsohn

-Baranowicher Farbrand of America New Baranowicher Branch 446 National
Workers Alliance, contributed by Jerry Seligsohn

-The Shtetls of Belarus has been enhanced to have links >from each shtetl to
the Jewish Encyclopedia website.

Please take a few minutes and see if any of the new pages help with your
research,

Edward Rosenbaum
Bergenfield, NJ
(http://www.jewishgen.org/JRI-PL/agad)
President, JGS of Bergen County, New Jersey
(http://erosenbaum.netfirms.com/jgsbc)
email: erosenbaum@yahoo.com


Re: How can the same place be on different latitudes and longitudes? #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

Marilyn Feingold <mrl@bellsouth.net> wrote:

In searching shtetl seeker I found the same town with at least six different
latitudes and longitudes, yet they are all in Moldova and have the same
name. What's happening? New borders? Which do I trust?Thanks for any
insight.
Sometimes there are different towns with the same name. This must make
things difficult for the post office. In some cases the towns are in
different provinces or counties, or might be distinguished in other
ways (one might be referred to as "Yehupetz near Chelm" as opposed to
"Yehupetz on the Bug"). But unfortunately our ancestors probably
didn't think it important to distinguish between these when putting
the name of their home-towns on official documents - they'd just say
they were >from "Yehupetz" and leave it at that. They didn't expect
anybody to ever use this information, at least not for any purpose
that would benefit _them_.

One other point to note: some of the places listed in the ShtetlSeeker
seem to be extremely tiny, while others of course were substantial
cities. If one of your locations doesn't appear on the Mapquest map
(except maybe if you zoom in at high magnification) while another
is prominently displayed, the prominent one is more likely to be
the place you're looking for. On the other hand, some of our
ancestors did live in very tiny villages.

Robert Israel
israel@math.ubc.ca
http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel
Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z2


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen WHat is new on the Belarus SIG website #general

Edward Rosenbaum <erosenbaum@...>
 

This month, 6 new pages with over 16500 names have been added to the Belarus
SIG website.

-1906 Minsk Uyezd Duma List

-Borisov and Vicinity Relief Committee, contributed by Jerry Seligsohn

-Mogilev Cemetery, contributed by Leonid Plotkin

-Amdurer Benevolent Association, contributed by Jerry Seligsohn

-Baranowicher Farbrand of America New Baranowicher Branch 446 National
Workers Alliance, contributed by Jerry Seligsohn

-The Shtetls of Belarus has been enhanced to have links >from each shtetl to
the Jewish Encyclopedia website.

Please take a few minutes and see if any of the new pages help with your
research,

Edward Rosenbaum
Bergenfield, NJ
(http://www.jewishgen.org/JRI-PL/agad)
President, JGS of Bergen County, New Jersey
(http://erosenbaum.netfirms.com/jgsbc)
email: erosenbaum@yahoo.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: How can the same place be on different latitudes and longitudes? #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

Marilyn Feingold <mrl@bellsouth.net> wrote:

In searching shtetl seeker I found the same town with at least six different
latitudes and longitudes, yet they are all in Moldova and have the same
name. What's happening? New borders? Which do I trust?Thanks for any
insight.
Sometimes there are different towns with the same name. This must make
things difficult for the post office. In some cases the towns are in
different provinces or counties, or might be distinguished in other
ways (one might be referred to as "Yehupetz near Chelm" as opposed to
"Yehupetz on the Bug"). But unfortunately our ancestors probably
didn't think it important to distinguish between these when putting
the name of their home-towns on official documents - they'd just say
they were >from "Yehupetz" and leave it at that. They didn't expect
anybody to ever use this information, at least not for any purpose
that would benefit _them_.

One other point to note: some of the places listed in the ShtetlSeeker
seem to be extremely tiny, while others of course were substantial
cities. If one of your locations doesn't appear on the Mapquest map
(except maybe if you zoom in at high magnification) while another
is prominently displayed, the prominent one is more likely to be
the place you're looking for. On the other hand, some of our
ancestors did live in very tiny villages.

Robert Israel
israel@math.ubc.ca
http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel
Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z2


Yaron Rotman's e-mail address & names #rabbinic

Yaron Rotman <yarotman@...>
 

Please note my new e-mail address and research names as shown below.

Yaron Rotman
mailto:yarotman@bezeqint.net

Researching:
ROJTMAN, ROZEN - Chelm, Mogielnica; CHELMENER, ZILBERTSAN - Poland;
RUSZINEK, BANKIER, HERBET, BERLINSKI - Pilica; SZYDLOWSKI, GROSNACHT -
Stopnica; GLATMAN - Goraj; GRUNER - Essen, Germany, Rzeszow, Poland;
SPERBER - Sokal/Chechanov, Poland; PRUSKI - Novvy Dvor, Lithuania -
Belarus; FRENKIEL - Lithuania Belarus; KRONGRAD - Brzeziny, Poland;
ROSENBERG - Lodz, Poland; ELSTER - Chelm, Poland & Kovel, Ukraine; also:
Rebbe David of Lelow, Rebbe Elimeleh of Lejazsk, Rabbi David Halevy
(TaZ), Rebbe Yakow Isaac of Przysucha, Rebbe Yakow Kopel of Lukow,
Rebbes Israel & Shimon of Jaroslaw


Rabbinic Genealogy SIG #Rabbinic Yaron Rotman's e-mail address & names #rabbinic

Yaron Rotman <yarotman@...>
 

Please note my new e-mail address and research names as shown below.

Yaron Rotman
mailto:yarotman@bezeqint.net

Researching:
ROJTMAN, ROZEN - Chelm, Mogielnica; CHELMENER, ZILBERTSAN - Poland;
RUSZINEK, BANKIER, HERBET, BERLINSKI - Pilica; SZYDLOWSKI, GROSNACHT -
Stopnica; GLATMAN - Goraj; GRUNER - Essen, Germany, Rzeszow, Poland;
SPERBER - Sokal/Chechanov, Poland; PRUSKI - Novvy Dvor, Lithuania -
Belarus; FRENKIEL - Lithuania Belarus; KRONGRAD - Brzeziny, Poland;
ROSENBERG - Lodz, Poland; ELSTER - Chelm, Poland & Kovel, Ukraine; also:
Rebbe David of Lelow, Rebbe Elimeleh of Lejazsk, Rabbi David Halevy
(TaZ), Rebbe Yakow Isaac of Przysucha, Rebbe Yakow Kopel of Lukow,
Rebbes Israel & Shimon of Jaroslaw


Bobruisk Interest Group (BIG)now part of Belarus SIG #belarus

Nancy Holden
 

The Belarus Sig has adopted a growing offspring. A wonderful rich
complex interesting creation. All ours now. Even changed the name from
the Bobruisk Interest Group, the "BIG", to the Belarus SIG. No B.S.

The Belarus SIG is the proud new parent of a wonderful group who is
bringing a great deal of research and enthusiasm to a proud new parent.

The "BIG" retains it's identity even while adopting a new name...renewed
in spirit and strength at http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/bobruisk
...Now in "preview" awaiting updates and changes and your submissions...
Identity was never the issue. Even now it grows strong...initializing a
new push to recreate the shtetlach of Bobruisk District and Bobruisk
City: A Yizkor to our ancestors and a "pinkes" for the future.

Come and be part of us as we become part of you.

If you were once part of the "BIG" or have roots in Bobruisk and would
like to contribute your stories, your pictures...your documents...or
volunteer to help with translations or typing of the records that the
"BIG" purchased, please contact me.

Let there be no Jewish orphans in Belarus and no shtetlach forgotten.

Nancy Holden
Project Coordinator Belarus SIG
Temporary webmaster Bobruisk Shtetlinks site.


Belarus SIG #Belarus Bobruisk Interest Group (BIG)now part of Belarus SIG #belarus

Nancy Holden
 

The Belarus Sig has adopted a growing offspring. A wonderful rich
complex interesting creation. All ours now. Even changed the name from
the Bobruisk Interest Group, the "BIG", to the Belarus SIG. No B.S.

The Belarus SIG is the proud new parent of a wonderful group who is
bringing a great deal of research and enthusiasm to a proud new parent.

The "BIG" retains it's identity even while adopting a new name...renewed
in spirit and strength at http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/bobruisk
...Now in "preview" awaiting updates and changes and your submissions...
Identity was never the issue. Even now it grows strong...initializing a
new push to recreate the shtetlach of Bobruisk District and Bobruisk
City: A Yizkor to our ancestors and a "pinkes" for the future.

Come and be part of us as we become part of you.

If you were once part of the "BIG" or have roots in Bobruisk and would
like to contribute your stories, your pictures...your documents...or
volunteer to help with translations or typing of the records that the
"BIG" purchased, please contact me.

Let there be no Jewish orphans in Belarus and no shtetlach forgotten.

Nancy Holden
Project Coordinator Belarus SIG
Temporary webmaster Bobruisk Shtetlinks site.


Ruthenian Robin Hood? #hungary

Adam Smith <ajsmith98@...>
 

Hi Everyone,

On a visit to a village near to Khust, in Transcarpathia, I discovered some
old people that remembered a branch of my family. They reported that the
patriach was killed by a guy named Chukhi, who they described as some sort
of Robin Hood. Has anyone heard of him?

Pronounced "shukhee" by Ruthenians, and Chuhai by my Hungarian relative.

I appreciate your thoughts.

Adam Smith
New York, NY

Searching:
TAMBOR, GOLDENBERG, SAPSOWITZ, WEITZNER: Khust vicinity
OBERLANDER, BEZDEDI, FIRZEHER: Nove Davidkove, Mukachevo area







_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


Hungary SIG #Hungary Ruthenian Robin Hood? #hungary

Adam Smith <ajsmith98@...>
 

Hi Everyone,

On a visit to a village near to Khust, in Transcarpathia, I discovered some
old people that remembered a branch of my family. They reported that the
patriach was killed by a guy named Chukhi, who they described as some sort
of Robin Hood. Has anyone heard of him?

Pronounced "shukhee" by Ruthenians, and Chuhai by my Hungarian relative.

I appreciate your thoughts.

Adam Smith
New York, NY

Searching:
TAMBOR, GOLDENBERG, SAPSOWITZ, WEITZNER: Khust vicinity
OBERLANDER, BEZDEDI, FIRZEHER: Nove Davidkove, Mukachevo area







_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


looking for... #unitedkingdom

Miriamhechtman@...
 

Hi,
I am hoping that you can help me. I am looking for a woman whose maiden name or name during the war was Lily Samuels. In 1946 she was found by Evelyn Chenkin nee Freedman in France where she had been a hidden child during ww2. Evelyn took her >from the Catholic family she was living with and reunited her with her aunt in the UK. It has been suggested that her aunt lived in Musswell Hill London and that Lily was married in London and has since moved to Australia.

Is there any way I could find her?? Through marriage records, births certificates etc..immigration??

Hoping that you can help me.

Kind regards,
Miriam Hechtman

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately to the writer.


JCR-UK SIG #UnitedKingdom looking for... #unitedkingdom

Miriamhechtman@...
 

Hi,
I am hoping that you can help me. I am looking for a woman whose maiden name or name during the war was Lily Samuels. In 1946 she was found by Evelyn Chenkin nee Freedman in France where she had been a hidden child during ww2. Evelyn took her >from the Catholic family she was living with and reunited her with her aunt in the UK. It has been suggested that her aunt lived in Musswell Hill London and that Lily was married in London and has since moved to Australia.

Is there any way I could find her?? Through marriage records, births certificates etc..immigration??

Hoping that you can help me.

Kind regards,
Miriam Hechtman

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately to the writer.


INTRODUCTION #unitedkingdom

adamandlopa yamey <adamandlopa@...>
 

My name is Adam YAMEY. I was born and I live in
London, UK. Both of may parents were born in South
Africa. Their families which I am currently
researching originated in Germany and Lithuania
mainly.

Amongst the many surnames that are of interest to me
the following are of great interest:

from Germany:
BLOCH(Gailingen),SELIGMANN(Ichenhausen),RIESER(Laupheim),
WIMPFHEIMER(Ichenhausen), GINSBERG(Beuthen-now Bytom,
Poland),DANNHEISSER(Landau/Pfalz)

from Lithuania: YAMEY or JAMI(both >from Plunge),
KATZIN(Plunge), HALPERIN(Telsiai), WALT(Ukmerge,
formerly Wilkomir), PLUTSKY(Panevezys), GARB (Plunge)

from Austria/Bohemia: RINDL, LICHTENSTADT(Prague)
from UK: SOLOMONS, LITOUN, LICHTENSTADT
A very particular quest at the moment is to contact
Felicitas BRADLEY ( who lived in Guildford, Surrey in
the 1980s) or any of her descendants including her
daughters Patricia Marion HOFFMANN (this was her
surname in 1965) and Vivian (I do not know whether she
married.

I look forward to being an interested member of this
group.

Adam Yamey, London, UK e-mail: adamandlopa@yahoo.co.uk


CAHJP #romania

Paula Zieselman <paulaz@...>
 

The Center will reopen on November 1 at its new location
46 Jabotinsky Street in Jerusalem.

Paula Zieselman
co-coordinator RomSig


Romanian phone directory #romania

Stephanie Weiner <laguna@...>
 

Up until this past week, I've had no problem connecting to the Romanian
telephone directory via http://www.teldir.com However, something has
happened and I cannot get to the white pages, and after connecting to
the yellow pages I get bumped off and receive an error message >from my
ISP, Netscape. I've sent an e-mail to Infobel, the company that
maintains TelDir online and am waiting for a reply.

Stephanie Weiner
San Diego, CA, USA

MODERATOR NOTE: In the meantime use the one linked to the RomSig
website (www.jewishgen.org/romsig).Click on links then on telephone
directory and connect immediately.


JCR-UK SIG #UnitedKingdom INTRODUCTION #unitedkingdom

adamandlopa yamey <adamandlopa@...>
 

My name is Adam YAMEY. I was born and I live in
London, UK. Both of may parents were born in South
Africa. Their families which I am currently
researching originated in Germany and Lithuania
mainly.

Amongst the many surnames that are of interest to me
the following are of great interest:

from Germany:
BLOCH(Gailingen),SELIGMANN(Ichenhausen),RIESER(Laupheim),
WIMPFHEIMER(Ichenhausen), GINSBERG(Beuthen-now Bytom,
Poland),DANNHEISSER(Landau/Pfalz)

from Lithuania: YAMEY or JAMI(both >from Plunge),
KATZIN(Plunge), HALPERIN(Telsiai), WALT(Ukmerge,
formerly Wilkomir), PLUTSKY(Panevezys), GARB (Plunge)

from Austria/Bohemia: RINDL, LICHTENSTADT(Prague)
from UK: SOLOMONS, LITOUN, LICHTENSTADT
A very particular quest at the moment is to contact
Felicitas BRADLEY ( who lived in Guildford, Surrey in
the 1980s) or any of her descendants including her
daughters Patricia Marion HOFFMANN (this was her
surname in 1965) and Vivian (I do not know whether she
married.

I look forward to being an interested member of this
group.

Adam Yamey, London, UK e-mail: adamandlopa@yahoo.co.uk


Romania SIG #Romania CAHJP #romania

Paula Zieselman <paulaz@...>
 

The Center will reopen on November 1 at its new location
46 Jabotinsky Street in Jerusalem.

Paula Zieselman
co-coordinator RomSig


Romania SIG #Romania Romanian phone directory #romania

Stephanie Weiner <laguna@...>
 

Up until this past week, I've had no problem connecting to the Romanian
telephone directory via http://www.teldir.com However, something has
happened and I cannot get to the white pages, and after connecting to
the yellow pages I get bumped off and receive an error message >from my
ISP, Netscape. I've sent an e-mail to Infobel, the company that
maintains TelDir online and am waiting for a reply.

Stephanie Weiner
San Diego, CA, USA

MODERATOR NOTE: In the meantime use the one linked to the RomSig
website (www.jewishgen.org/romsig).Click on links then on telephone
directory and connect immediately.