Date   

Re: Search baby from Miskolcz killed in 1944 #hungary

Vivian Kahn
 

Yad Vashem and other archives have a list of names of 10,775 Jews deported to
the Miskolc ghetto. Very likely that the child is listed with her parents. You
can also search Yad Vashem Central Archives on-line.

Vivian Kahn, Oakland, California
JewishGen Hungarian SIG Coordinator

On Jul 11, 2016, at 11:04 PM, <davidnead@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking for the name of the baby, who lived in the town Miskolcz, and
killed about age 2 in 1944.

Is it practical?

Is there a way to get birth records dating back to 1942? There were those
records? They survived? They are protected by privacy?
Is there could be other records (census registration Holocaust victims) of
these years - include babies?

Of course I know her parents' names and other details about the family. I
just do not know her name - I know it was there and was killed.

It has a chance?


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Search baby from Miskolcz killed in 1944 #general

Vivian Kahn
 

Yad Vashem and other archives have a list of names of 10,775 Jews deported to
the Miskolc ghetto. Very likely that the child is listed with her parents. You
can also search Yad Vashem Central Archives on-line.

Vivian Kahn, Oakland, California
JewishGen Hungarian SIG Coordinator

On Jul 11, 2016, at 11:04 PM, <davidnead@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking for the name of the baby, who lived in the town Miskolcz, and
killed about age 2 in 1944.

Is it practical?

Is there a way to get birth records dating back to 1942? There were those
records? They survived? They are protected by privacy?
Is there could be other records (census registration Holocaust victims) of
these years - include babies?

Of course I know her parents' names and other details about the family. I
just do not know her name - I know it was there and was killed.

It has a chance?


Re: Train travel Lodz-Vilne 1920 #general

Stanley Grossman
 

Paula Baker's interest in the above journey made me first think of the
recent UK TV series of European train journeys taken by former politician
Michael Portillo, using the old George Bradshaw train schedules. I don't
know if that helps but there is also a series of guides by William Harman
Black, (The real Europe pocket guide-book (number 10 of the "Black's blue
books") with 23 simple outline maps of the 33 new countries, and elaborate
index, by William Harman Black 1920).
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/007685715
The Universities of California and Minnesota may have copies.

Stanley Grossman. Glasgow, Scotland


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Train travel Lodz-Vilne 1920 #general

Stanley Grossman
 

Paula Baker's interest in the above journey made me first think of the
recent UK TV series of European train journeys taken by former politician
Michael Portillo, using the old George Bradshaw train schedules. I don't
know if that helps but there is also a series of guides by William Harman
Black, (The real Europe pocket guide-book (number 10 of the "Black's blue
books") with 23 simple outline maps of the 33 new countries, and elaborate
index, by William Harman Black 1920).
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/007685715
The Universities of California and Minnesota may have copies.

Stanley Grossman. Glasgow, Scotland


Re: She died in a fire in NYC #general

A. E. Jordan
 

From: Shelley Mitchell
...She knows that her first name was Rose and her married last name was
MORGANSTERN. The family story is that while she was cooking a meal for the
Jewish holidays, her apron caught fire. She suffered severe burns and was
taken to the hospital (probably Bellevue) where she died. This occurred most
likely on the Lower East Side.

The time period is sometime before 1943. I'm guessing 1930 - 1943...
Not trying to single anyone out ... but this is a good example of problem
solving and how to make the search a little easier.

Do you know her approximate birth date? Do you know her husband's name?

Use the facts you know and start with the most basic of searches which is the
US Census. Is she in the 1930 Census? What does that tell you about her, ie
address, age, etc.

Is she in the 1940 Census? Can you find her husband in the 1940 Census? In he
is at the same address it is likely you have the address for where this might
have happened. Of course if she is in the 1940 Census that changes you date
window. Always use basic searches to narrow you date window -- or as I say
put a ring around your dates and try to close the range as much as possible.

You might get lucky and search the NY Times -- which is entirely digital --
and find her death notice or because of the odd circumstances even a news story.

Do you know when the husband died and more importantly where he was buried? He
might he buried next to the wife.

Also try using the Morse One Step tool which is the most basic for NYC vital
records. It has the NYC Death Index and I did a quick search on Rose and sounds
line Morganstern in case the spelling was off. (You could also put wild cards
in for all the vowels when you search.) I assumed she was anywhere between age
20 and 100. That search along gave me three possibilities and over 100 total
names.

These steps alone should make this type of searching much easier. There's more
but I wanted to keep this basic on how to tackle this type of search. It is
likely because of the circumstances there could be a medical examiner's
investigation for example but I would reserve that for a later date once the
basics on the death have been established.

Allan Jordan


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: She died in a fire in NYC #general

A. E. Jordan
 

From: Shelley Mitchell
...She knows that her first name was Rose and her married last name was
MORGANSTERN. The family story is that while she was cooking a meal for the
Jewish holidays, her apron caught fire. She suffered severe burns and was
taken to the hospital (probably Bellevue) where she died. This occurred most
likely on the Lower East Side.

The time period is sometime before 1943. I'm guessing 1930 - 1943...
Not trying to single anyone out ... but this is a good example of problem
solving and how to make the search a little easier.

Do you know her approximate birth date? Do you know her husband's name?

Use the facts you know and start with the most basic of searches which is the
US Census. Is she in the 1930 Census? What does that tell you about her, ie
address, age, etc.

Is she in the 1940 Census? Can you find her husband in the 1940 Census? In he
is at the same address it is likely you have the address for where this might
have happened. Of course if she is in the 1940 Census that changes you date
window. Always use basic searches to narrow you date window -- or as I say
put a ring around your dates and try to close the range as much as possible.

You might get lucky and search the NY Times -- which is entirely digital --
and find her death notice or because of the odd circumstances even a news story.

Do you know when the husband died and more importantly where he was buried? He
might he buried next to the wife.

Also try using the Morse One Step tool which is the most basic for NYC vital
records. It has the NYC Death Index and I did a quick search on Rose and sounds
line Morganstern in case the spelling was off. (You could also put wild cards
in for all the vowels when you search.) I assumed she was anywhere between age
20 and 100. That search along gave me three possibilities and over 100 total
names.

These steps alone should make this type of searching much easier. There's more
but I wanted to keep this basic on how to tackle this type of search. It is
likely because of the circumstances there could be a medical examiner's
investigation for example but I would reserve that for a later date once the
basics on the death have been established.

Allan Jordan


Re: She died in a fire in NYC #general

Shelley Mitchell
 

Thank you for trying to help. I'll give you the steps I've taken and what I've
learned. Maybe that will help someone else.

The only information I have is that Rose was married to Mr. Morganstern and
they had a son named Louis. Little is known about Louis's parents. Our Louis
Morganstern married Pearl Waltzer (b. 1920). I don't know the year but since
their first born (named after Rose) was born in 1945, I concluded that Rose
died before 1944. Neither of Louis's parents were around when he married.
Louis and Pearl met on the Lower East Side where Louis was working. Our
Louis's second born's name begins with a J. I concluded he was named after
Rose's husband.

Our Louis was originally buried at King Solomon in New Jersey but was
reinterred by his widow at Eternal Light in Boynton Beach about 15 years ago
when she moved to Florida. He's in their Mausoleum, as is his widow. I checked
Findagrave and found no information on Louis or his mother Rose. I checked
Ancestry for an obituary but no article appeared. I would have thought that
her story would have hit some periodical since I saw similar articles in
obituaries on Ancestry.

I found 2 censuses for a Joseph and Rose Morgenstern who had a son named Louis.
In 1930, this Louis was 18 (b. 1912) and in 1940 (age 28) he was out of the
house. So these Morgensterns were alive in 1940. Our Louis and Pearl had their
first child in 1945 so Louis would have married by 1944. But I can't find
Louis's marriage record either. For that I checked both Ancestry and
Familysearch. I don't know when Rose died but if she died, per choice c, she
might have been a widow at the time of death. My best guess is that she was
taken to Bellevue. That's where most Lower East Side Jews went for births and
deaths. Our Louis was a Kohanim.

Thanks for trying to help.

Shelley Mitchell

Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@comcast.net> wrote:

Shelley asked for direct responses, but her query may be of help to others.

In order for us to help, you have to provide more detail for us.
Can you supply:
1. Her age at time of death?
2. Place of birth?
3. Marital status?
3. Any other details such as parents’ or spouse’s names?

The above info helps us narrow the field and eliminate candidates...
On Jul 12, 2016, at 9:35 AM, Shelley Mitchell shelley.mitchell@att.net wrote:
“ grandmother. …… her first name was Rose and her married name was
MORGANSTERN. The family story is that while she was cooking a meal for the
Jewish holidays, her apron caught fire.
She suffered severe burns and was taken to the hospital (probably Bellevue)
where she died.
This occurred most likely on the Lower East Side.

Time period - sometime before 1943. I'm guessing 1930 - 1943.

I've looked in Ancestry, Familysearch, and Jewishgen.
I've tried to find her name in death records and some newspapers.
Does anyone have any ideas about what else I can do next?


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: She died in a fire in NYC #general

Shelley Mitchell
 

Thank you for trying to help. I'll give you the steps I've taken and what I've
learned. Maybe that will help someone else.

The only information I have is that Rose was married to Mr. Morganstern and
they had a son named Louis. Little is known about Louis's parents. Our Louis
Morganstern married Pearl Waltzer (b. 1920). I don't know the year but since
their first born (named after Rose) was born in 1945, I concluded that Rose
died before 1944. Neither of Louis's parents were around when he married.
Louis and Pearl met on the Lower East Side where Louis was working. Our
Louis's second born's name begins with a J. I concluded he was named after
Rose's husband.

Our Louis was originally buried at King Solomon in New Jersey but was
reinterred by his widow at Eternal Light in Boynton Beach about 15 years ago
when she moved to Florida. He's in their Mausoleum, as is his widow. I checked
Findagrave and found no information on Louis or his mother Rose. I checked
Ancestry for an obituary but no article appeared. I would have thought that
her story would have hit some periodical since I saw similar articles in
obituaries on Ancestry.

I found 2 censuses for a Joseph and Rose Morgenstern who had a son named Louis.
In 1930, this Louis was 18 (b. 1912) and in 1940 (age 28) he was out of the
house. So these Morgensterns were alive in 1940. Our Louis and Pearl had their
first child in 1945 so Louis would have married by 1944. But I can't find
Louis's marriage record either. For that I checked both Ancestry and
Familysearch. I don't know when Rose died but if she died, per choice c, she
might have been a widow at the time of death. My best guess is that she was
taken to Bellevue. That's where most Lower East Side Jews went for births and
deaths. Our Louis was a Kohanim.

Thanks for trying to help.

Shelley Mitchell

Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@comcast.net> wrote:

Shelley asked for direct responses, but her query may be of help to others.

In order for us to help, you have to provide more detail for us.
Can you supply:
1. Her age at time of death?
2. Place of birth?
3. Marital status?
3. Any other details such as parents’ or spouse’s names?

The above info helps us narrow the field and eliminate candidates...
On Jul 12, 2016, at 9:35 AM, Shelley Mitchell shelley.mitchell@att.net wrote:
“ grandmother. …… her first name was Rose and her married name was
MORGANSTERN. The family story is that while she was cooking a meal for the
Jewish holidays, her apron caught fire.
She suffered severe burns and was taken to the hospital (probably Bellevue)
where she died.
This occurred most likely on the Lower East Side.

Time period - sometime before 1943. I'm guessing 1930 - 1943.

I've looked in Ancestry, Familysearch, and Jewishgen.
I've tried to find her name in death records and some newspapers.
Does anyone have any ideas about what else I can do next?


Re: Russian West Point and Medals?? #general

Ann Rabinowitz
 

I believe that 1917 was the first opportunity that Jews had to become officers
in the Russian military and many rose to the rank of General after that. It was
also the first time that they were allowed entrance into the military academies.

Given that information, perhaps the ancestor mentioned who was a scribe was
working in the military academy and not attending the academy.

Ann Rabinowitz
arabinow@bellsouth.net


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Russian West Point and Medals?? #general

Ann Rabinowitz
 

I believe that 1917 was the first opportunity that Jews had to become officers
in the Russian military and many rose to the rank of General after that. It was
also the first time that they were allowed entrance into the military academies.

Given that information, perhaps the ancestor mentioned who was a scribe was
working in the military academy and not attending the academy.

Ann Rabinowitz
arabinow@bellsouth.net


Re: Train travel Lodz-Vilne 1920 #general

Judith Singer
 

Hi - I don't know any specific sources to suggest, but wanted to warn
you that schedules might well be irrelevant for this period. This was
during a period of armed conflict between the Reds, Whites and others
for leadership of Russia, between Russia and Poland regarding an
independent Poland and its borders, and between Poland and Lithuania
for control of Vilna and Suwalki provinces. A fictionalized memoir I
just read describeid the trains as running hours behind schedule when
they ran and that sections of track and bridges were sometimes
destroyed by warring factions.

Probably your best bet is to find a memoir by someone who lived in
that area at that time and see if train travel is mentioned.

Judith Singer


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Train travel Lodz-Vilne 1920 #general

Judith Singer
 

Hi - I don't know any specific sources to suggest, but wanted to warn
you that schedules might well be irrelevant for this period. This was
during a period of armed conflict between the Reds, Whites and others
for leadership of Russia, between Russia and Poland regarding an
independent Poland and its borders, and between Poland and Lithuania
for control of Vilna and Suwalki provinces. A fictionalized memoir I
just read describeid the trains as running hours behind schedule when
they ran and that sections of track and bridges were sometimes
destroyed by warring factions.

Probably your best bet is to find a memoir by someone who lived in
that area at that time and see if train travel is mentioned.

Judith Singer


Re: Research in Aram-Tsova (Haleb) in Syria. #general

Israel P
 

This is called "Aleppo" in some languages.

Israel Pickholtz
Jerusalem

On 12 Jul 2016 at 0:04, <davidnead@gmail.com> wrote:
This is the first time I happen to explore the family >from Aram-Tsova
(Haleb) in Syria.

Can anyone give me a brief tutorial, simple and easy?

Is there a database containing searchable records (that is, indexes)
of Syria? Is Syria were vital records? Were census? Would they
survive? Where are they?

I'm talking about the years 1880-1925.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Research in Aram-Tsova (Haleb) in Syria. #general

Israel P
 

This is called "Aleppo" in some languages.

Israel Pickholtz
Jerusalem

On 12 Jul 2016 at 0:04, <davidnead@gmail.com> wrote:
This is the first time I happen to explore the family >from Aram-Tsova
(Haleb) in Syria.

Can anyone give me a brief tutorial, simple and easy?

Is there a database containing searchable records (that is, indexes)
of Syria? Is Syria were vital records? Were census? Would they
survive? Where are they?

I'm talking about the years 1880-1925.


Re: She died in a fire in NYC #general

Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@...>
 

Shelley asked for direct responses, but her query may be of help to others.

In order for us to help, you have to provide more detail for us.

Can you supply:
1. Her age at time of death?
2. Place of birth?
3. Marital status?
3. Any other details such as parents’ or spouse’s names?

The above info helps us narrow the field and eliminate candidates.

Based on the little info she did provide:

Stevemorse.org:
Searching for deaths in 1938 +/- 10 years:

Possibles:
a. Rosa Morganstern, b. 1880,“Austria”, d. April 1948, Brooklyn; resided Bklyn.
2168168
b. Rose Morganstien, b. 1869, Poland, d. Mar 1943, the Bronx; resided Bronx
2195856
c. Rose Morganstein, b. 1888, ?, d. Sep 1943, Manhattan 2131681
d. Rose Morgenstern, b. 1863, ?, d. Jun 1933, Brooklyn. 2070653
e. Rose Morgenstein, b. 1881, Russia, d. Feb 1935, Manhattan. 2078705
f. Rose Morgenstein, b. 1878, Poland, d. 1948, Brooklyn; resided Bklyn. 2168266
g. Rose Morgenstein, b. 1872, Austria, d. Aug 1938, Manhattan; resided Bronx.
2108114
h. Rose Morgenstern, b. 1864, Russia, d. Aug 1933, Brooklyn, 2071088
i. Rose Morgenstein, b. 1874, Russia, d. Feb 1943, Brooklyn; resided Bklyn.
2134505

Since you are not sure if she died at Bellevue, you cannot rule out those who
resided outside Manhattan.

Unless you can supply some/all of the info I listed above, your only choice
will be to order the films >from the FHL and view them. The film numbers are
listed after each entry.

You may want to check FindAGrave and see if someone listed her.

Good luck,
Barbara Mannlein
Tucson, AZ

On Jul 12, 2016, at 9:35 AM, Shelley Mitchell shelley.mitchell@att.net wrote:
“grandmother. …… her first name was Rose and her married name was MORGANSTERN.
The family story is that while she was cooking a meal for the Jewish holidays,
her apron caught fire. She suffered severe burns and was taken to the hospital
(probably Bellevue) where she died.
This occurred most likely on the Lower East Side.

Time period - sometime before 1943. I'm guessing 1930 - 1943.
I've looked in Ancestry, Familysearch, and Jewishgen.
I've tried to find her name in death records and some newspapers.
Does anyone have any ideas about what else I can do next?


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: She died in a fire in NYC #general

Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@...>
 

Shelley asked for direct responses, but her query may be of help to others.

In order for us to help, you have to provide more detail for us.

Can you supply:
1. Her age at time of death?
2. Place of birth?
3. Marital status?
3. Any other details such as parents’ or spouse’s names?

The above info helps us narrow the field and eliminate candidates.

Based on the little info she did provide:

Stevemorse.org:
Searching for deaths in 1938 +/- 10 years:

Possibles:
a. Rosa Morganstern, b. 1880,“Austria”, d. April 1948, Brooklyn; resided Bklyn.
2168168
b. Rose Morganstien, b. 1869, Poland, d. Mar 1943, the Bronx; resided Bronx
2195856
c. Rose Morganstein, b. 1888, ?, d. Sep 1943, Manhattan 2131681
d. Rose Morgenstern, b. 1863, ?, d. Jun 1933, Brooklyn. 2070653
e. Rose Morgenstein, b. 1881, Russia, d. Feb 1935, Manhattan. 2078705
f. Rose Morgenstein, b. 1878, Poland, d. 1948, Brooklyn; resided Bklyn. 2168266
g. Rose Morgenstein, b. 1872, Austria, d. Aug 1938, Manhattan; resided Bronx.
2108114
h. Rose Morgenstern, b. 1864, Russia, d. Aug 1933, Brooklyn, 2071088
i. Rose Morgenstein, b. 1874, Russia, d. Feb 1943, Brooklyn; resided Bklyn.
2134505

Since you are not sure if she died at Bellevue, you cannot rule out those who
resided outside Manhattan.

Unless you can supply some/all of the info I listed above, your only choice
will be to order the films >from the FHL and view them. The film numbers are
listed after each entry.

You may want to check FindAGrave and see if someone listed her.

Good luck,
Barbara Mannlein
Tucson, AZ

On Jul 12, 2016, at 9:35 AM, Shelley Mitchell shelley.mitchell@att.net wrote:
“grandmother. …… her first name was Rose and her married name was MORGANSTERN.
The family story is that while she was cooking a meal for the Jewish holidays,
her apron caught fire. She suffered severe burns and was taken to the hospital
(probably Bellevue) where she died.
This occurred most likely on the Lower East Side.

Time period - sometime before 1943. I'm guessing 1930 - 1943.
I've looked in Ancestry, Familysearch, and Jewishgen.
I've tried to find her name in death records and some newspapers.
Does anyone have any ideas about what else I can do next?


Document information #romania

kisanders
 

Hello Genners,

I am wondering where I might find certain information pertaining to
my great grandfather and his father. They immigrated to Romania
sometime in the 1850's (according to a cousin.) My grandmother's
birth certificate, >from Braila, says her father was >from the
"Austro-Hungarian" area. The surname appears to be unique. One
aunt had told me that my grandfather spelled his name differently
from everyone else.

So my question is, did Romanians have naturalization papers,
immigration papers, etc. Would my grandfathers' death certificate
(d. 1921) or marriage record have his exact place of birth and original
surname?

Are here any documents in Romania that would have this kind of
information?

I'd appreciate any information or direction in where to research.

Karen I Sanders
West Haven, CT


Romania SIG #Romania Document information #romania

kisanders
 

Hello Genners,

I am wondering where I might find certain information pertaining to
my great grandfather and his father. They immigrated to Romania
sometime in the 1850's (according to a cousin.) My grandmother's
birth certificate, >from Braila, says her father was >from the
"Austro-Hungarian" area. The surname appears to be unique. One
aunt had told me that my grandfather spelled his name differently
from everyone else.

So my question is, did Romanians have naturalization papers,
immigration papers, etc. Would my grandfathers' death certificate
(d. 1921) or marriage record have his exact place of birth and original
surname?

Are here any documents in Romania that would have this kind of
information?

I'd appreciate any information or direction in where to research.

Karen I Sanders
West Haven, CT


Seeking Information on Rabbi Amram b. Yitzchak Yakov BLUM #romania

Aaron Slotnik
 

Hello,

In the course of researching my BLUM family >from Gebe, Hungary (present day
Nyirkata), I'm seeking to clarify the locations associated with Rabbi
Amram b. Yitzchak Yakov BLUM (1834 - 1907), his siblings and ancestors.
I'm hoping that some of the readers of this posting to Rav-SIG, H-SIG,
Rom-SIG and JewishGen (please forgive the cross-posting) will be able to
assist.


The published sources that I've been able to consult--Magyar Zsido Lexicon,
as well as various online family trees--have Rabbi Amram's place of birth
as Samson, Hungary (present day Hajdusamson). His father Yitzchak Yakov
is also referred to as the 'Shamshon Rav' and the Pinkas Hakehillot entry
for Hajdusamson (http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/pinkas_hungary/hun270.html)
states that he was a Rabbi there but doesn't provide specifics. The Zsido
Mult website:
http://hajdu.zsidomult.hu/index.php/elveszett-koezoessegek/koezponti-jaras/hajdusamson
[Moderator Note - This is in Hungarian] Tiny URL: <http://tinyurl.com/jl4fkjh>
states that he served there until his death in 1851, but since I don't know
Hungarian it's unclear to me when he started; however, the information at this
website (http://www.virtualjudaica.com/Item/19407/Responsa_Maharaf) about Rabbi
Aharon FRIED states that he served as the rabbi of Hajdusamson >from 1844-1860.
There is a Karoly Fried listed in Samson in the 1848 Census, but no details fit
other than his birth year.


The research that I've been able to conduct in the primary sources indexed
in the JewishGen Hungary database state that Rabbi Amram (secular name Abraham),
his brother Rabbi Moshe (Moricz) and sister Hava (Eva) were all born in
Nagykaroly (present day Carei, Romania)--see the 1869 Hungarian Census entry
for Mad, Hungary. Additionally, the Encyclopedia Judaica entry for Amram
states that "He studied under his father, who was head of the bet din in
Nagykaroly, and later in the seminaries of Nagykaroly [under Rabbi Meir Perles],
and of Abraham Samuel Benjamin Sofer, rabbi of Pressburg."


I'm new to rabbinic genealogy, but I'm surprised that there isn't more
information readily available about Amram's father if he indeed was ABD of
Nagykaroly which was an important town at that time and one of the oldest
Jewish communities in Hungary / Transylvania. In addition to the 1869 Census
entry, I believe I can substantiate that the family was in Nagykaroly starting
in at least the 1820s as I found an entry for Yitzchak Yakov's father Levi BLUM
in the 1828 Hungarian Property Tax Census.


According to Yitzchak Yakov's family tree on Geni, his first marriage was to
a STERNBERG who I believe was Rabbi Bernard (Dov Ber) STERNBERG's daughter and
whose other daughter married Rabbi Shimon SOFER (son of Chatam Sofer). His
second marriage was to Miriam ROSENBAUM, daughter of Rabbi Amram Chassida
ROSENBAUM. My limited understanding of rabbinical marriages leads me to
believe that Yitzchak Yakov must have been a fairly well-known and respected
rabbi in his time to have merited matches with other prominent families, and
would align with him being ABD Nagykaroly.


Other than the Encyclopedia Judaica entry though, I can find no other mention
of Yitzchak Yakov as a rabbi in Nagykaroly. According to the timeline I've
been able to piece together >from various sources, Rabbi Moshe Aryeh b. Mayer
Yehuda OSTREICHER served >from 1774 to his death in 1820, followed by Rabbi
Isaac b. Asher Uri Lippmann FRANKEL >from 1820 to his death in 1834, followed
by Rabbi Meir b. Isaac Moses PERLES >from 1834 to his death in 1893. However,
the book "Wine and Thorns in the Tokay Valley..." states that Rabbi FRANKEL
died on October 10, 1825 which I would tend to believe since it appears to be
well-sourced. That discrepancy could align with Rabbi BLUM serving at that time,
or perhaps others were considered the chief rabbi while he was ABD?


So, the association with Nagykaroly seems to be well established. What I'm
trying to clarify is the association with Hajdusamson, particularly in the
late 1700s and early 1800s. The later association (i.e. after 1850) seems to
be more clear, either with Yitzchak Yakov dying there and/or Amram serving there
in his early career. Amram's son-in-law Rabbi Yosef Zvi SOFER served there as
did his son-in-law Rabbi Gavriel (Gabor) ILLIOVICS.


The key seems to be finding more information about Yitzhak Yakov and his
father Levi / Lebi. I wonder whether his father was a rabbi, or if not
clearly was wealthy enough to have owned property in Nagykaroly. I'm hoping
that some subscribers will have access to other sources (e.g. Hakhme Hungaryah
and Hakhme Transilvanyah by Yitshak Yosef Kohen, Toledot Geonei Hagar and
Shem ha-Gedolim me-Erets Hagar by Schwartz, or Rabbi Blum's own works) that
may have more information on them.


I speculate, but hope to more definitively establish, that Yitzchak Yakov
was born in Hajdusamson and possibly his father Levi as well. Unfortunately,
I've been unable to locate them in the 1848 Hungarian Jewish Census records
that have been indexed in the JewishGen Hungary database which could have
provided the birthplace. Although there are no fixed surnames, there are
likely candidates in the early 1770 census indexes due to the given names
and frequency of those names in later BLUM family records.


My apologies for the long note, but I tried to make it as succinct as
possible while including all the information I've found.


Regards,
Aaron Slotnik
Chicago, IL


WOROSHILSKY - Bialystok area, Poland
GOLDBERG, KATZ - Dabrowa Bialostocka, Poland
ZLOTNIK, RZEZNIK - Nowy Dwor Mazowiecki, Zakroczym, and Nasielsk, Poland
SCHAPIRA - Jagielnica and Horodenka, Ukraine
BLUMENTHAL, KANTOR - Borshchiv, Husiatyn and Horodenka, Ukraine
BLUM, KATZ, MARTON, LIEBERMANN, ELKOVITS, VAISZ, SAMUEL - Salaj, Satu Mare,
and Maramures Counties, Romania


Romania SIG #Romania Seeking Information on Rabbi Amram b. Yitzchak Yakov BLUM #romania

Aaron Slotnik
 

Hello,

In the course of researching my BLUM family >from Gebe, Hungary (present day
Nyirkata), I'm seeking to clarify the locations associated with Rabbi
Amram b. Yitzchak Yakov BLUM (1834 - 1907), his siblings and ancestors.
I'm hoping that some of the readers of this posting to Rav-SIG, H-SIG,
Rom-SIG and JewishGen (please forgive the cross-posting) will be able to
assist.


The published sources that I've been able to consult--Magyar Zsido Lexicon,
as well as various online family trees--have Rabbi Amram's place of birth
as Samson, Hungary (present day Hajdusamson). His father Yitzchak Yakov
is also referred to as the 'Shamshon Rav' and the Pinkas Hakehillot entry
for Hajdusamson (http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/pinkas_hungary/hun270.html)
states that he was a Rabbi there but doesn't provide specifics. The Zsido
Mult website:
http://hajdu.zsidomult.hu/index.php/elveszett-koezoessegek/koezponti-jaras/hajdusamson
[Moderator Note - This is in Hungarian] Tiny URL: <http://tinyurl.com/jl4fkjh>
states that he served there until his death in 1851, but since I don't know
Hungarian it's unclear to me when he started; however, the information at this
website (http://www.virtualjudaica.com/Item/19407/Responsa_Maharaf) about Rabbi
Aharon FRIED states that he served as the rabbi of Hajdusamson >from 1844-1860.
There is a Karoly Fried listed in Samson in the 1848 Census, but no details fit
other than his birth year.


The research that I've been able to conduct in the primary sources indexed
in the JewishGen Hungary database state that Rabbi Amram (secular name Abraham),
his brother Rabbi Moshe (Moricz) and sister Hava (Eva) were all born in
Nagykaroly (present day Carei, Romania)--see the 1869 Hungarian Census entry
for Mad, Hungary. Additionally, the Encyclopedia Judaica entry for Amram
states that "He studied under his father, who was head of the bet din in
Nagykaroly, and later in the seminaries of Nagykaroly [under Rabbi Meir Perles],
and of Abraham Samuel Benjamin Sofer, rabbi of Pressburg."


I'm new to rabbinic genealogy, but I'm surprised that there isn't more
information readily available about Amram's father if he indeed was ABD of
Nagykaroly which was an important town at that time and one of the oldest
Jewish communities in Hungary / Transylvania. In addition to the 1869 Census
entry, I believe I can substantiate that the family was in Nagykaroly starting
in at least the 1820s as I found an entry for Yitzchak Yakov's father Levi BLUM
in the 1828 Hungarian Property Tax Census.


According to Yitzchak Yakov's family tree on Geni, his first marriage was to
a STERNBERG who I believe was Rabbi Bernard (Dov Ber) STERNBERG's daughter and
whose other daughter married Rabbi Shimon SOFER (son of Chatam Sofer). His
second marriage was to Miriam ROSENBAUM, daughter of Rabbi Amram Chassida
ROSENBAUM. My limited understanding of rabbinical marriages leads me to
believe that Yitzchak Yakov must have been a fairly well-known and respected
rabbi in his time to have merited matches with other prominent families, and
would align with him being ABD Nagykaroly.


Other than the Encyclopedia Judaica entry though, I can find no other mention
of Yitzchak Yakov as a rabbi in Nagykaroly. According to the timeline I've
been able to piece together >from various sources, Rabbi Moshe Aryeh b. Mayer
Yehuda OSTREICHER served >from 1774 to his death in 1820, followed by Rabbi
Isaac b. Asher Uri Lippmann FRANKEL >from 1820 to his death in 1834, followed
by Rabbi Meir b. Isaac Moses PERLES >from 1834 to his death in 1893. However,
the book "Wine and Thorns in the Tokay Valley..." states that Rabbi FRANKEL
died on October 10, 1825 which I would tend to believe since it appears to be
well-sourced. That discrepancy could align with Rabbi BLUM serving at that time,
or perhaps others were considered the chief rabbi while he was ABD?


So, the association with Nagykaroly seems to be well established. What I'm
trying to clarify is the association with Hajdusamson, particularly in the
late 1700s and early 1800s. The later association (i.e. after 1850) seems to
be more clear, either with Yitzchak Yakov dying there and/or Amram serving there
in his early career. Amram's son-in-law Rabbi Yosef Zvi SOFER served there as
did his son-in-law Rabbi Gavriel (Gabor) ILLIOVICS.


The key seems to be finding more information about Yitzhak Yakov and his
father Levi / Lebi. I wonder whether his father was a rabbi, or if not
clearly was wealthy enough to have owned property in Nagykaroly. I'm hoping
that some subscribers will have access to other sources (e.g. Hakhme Hungaryah
and Hakhme Transilvanyah by Yitshak Yosef Kohen, Toledot Geonei Hagar and
Shem ha-Gedolim me-Erets Hagar by Schwartz, or Rabbi Blum's own works) that
may have more information on them.


I speculate, but hope to more definitively establish, that Yitzchak Yakov
was born in Hajdusamson and possibly his father Levi as well. Unfortunately,
I've been unable to locate them in the 1848 Hungarian Jewish Census records
that have been indexed in the JewishGen Hungary database which could have
provided the birthplace. Although there are no fixed surnames, there are
likely candidates in the early 1770 census indexes due to the given names
and frequency of those names in later BLUM family records.


My apologies for the long note, but I tried to make it as succinct as
possible while including all the information I've found.


Regards,
Aaron Slotnik
Chicago, IL


WOROSHILSKY - Bialystok area, Poland
GOLDBERG, KATZ - Dabrowa Bialostocka, Poland
ZLOTNIK, RZEZNIK - Nowy Dwor Mazowiecki, Zakroczym, and Nasielsk, Poland
SCHAPIRA - Jagielnica and Horodenka, Ukraine
BLUMENTHAL, KANTOR - Borshchiv, Husiatyn and Horodenka, Ukraine
BLUM, KATZ, MARTON, LIEBERMANN, ELKOVITS, VAISZ, SAMUEL - Salaj, Satu Mare,
and Maramures Counties, Romania

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